Bringing More People Into a Dying Profession!

Dave Towne
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Bringing More People Into a Dying Profession! 

Some people want to bring more people (primarily of color, which is great) into a dying profession. But the profession is being killed off by (mostly white!) people who think technology is the golden spoon to accurate valuations. 

Appraisers, I’ve been studying, and writing about since 2006, all kind of issues surrounding our profession, and frankly some currently does not make sense.

As many know, ‘we’ have been accused of not having “enough black people” in appraiser ranks. The claim is that blacks only represent 3% or so of the total population of appraisers. The people engaged in blaming appraisers for bias and discrimination use this figure to ‘prove’ we are biased.

If that accusation is actually accurate (doubtful), do these same people throw spears at the pro sports teams, football and basketball especially, claiming that those sports don’t properly represent ‘white’ people. Heck no, they don’t.

Maybe, just maybe, folks in the black community have figured out that the prior and current state of affairs in appraising is not a viable profession to enter and work in.

Here’s why:

PAREA is being touted as the savior and the best appropriate way to get new people into this profession, especially people of color. Really? Let’s see. The education providers currently writing the PAREA courses have been indicating that the course cost will be up to 5 figures, roughly $10,000 or possibly more. That’s an outlay of significant cash BEFORE actually connecting with an appraiser who will put the PAREA-educated appraiser to work.

How many of you reading this would be willing to spend 10+ grand, not knowing if or when that expenditure would actually result in getting a ‘seat at the table’ in appraising?

Then, oddly or perhaps tellingly, Jake Williamson, SVP, Single-Family Collateral Risk Management, Fannie Mae, has issued this super positive news (not) that they basically are shifting most appraisal assignments AWAY from actual live appraisers. Mr. Williamson stated this in an article in The MReport titled ‘The Science of Appraisals’:

“…we’re increasing the use of alternative-scope property valuation approaches. Both of these data-driven approaches have the benefit of reducing contact between borrowers and appraisers, thus reducing the likelihood of valuations being affected by personal or unconscious biases.”

Mr. Williamson also stated in the article

“Thanks to the advances of data standardization and collection technology, as well as improvements in modeling and analytics, we can accept the value or purchase price of the loan transaction through Desktop Underwriter, our automated underwriting system, because we are confident that the value or purchase price is consistent with market expectations and that the loan is eligible for delivery to Fannie Mae. We call this value acceptance (or an appraisal waiver), and these mostly occur on refinance transactions or some purchases with large down payments.”

The basic question comes down to why would anyone of any color – chartreuse, pink, black, gray, dusty brown or white – want to get into a profession where the dominant player in mortgage purchases is basically saying ‘we’ are not important, and will be subjugated to the dust heap because “modeling and analytics” is more important than having an actual appraiser put eyeballs on the property?

Or stated another way, some people want to bring more people (primarily of color, which is great) into a dying profession. But the profession is being killed off by (mostly white!) people who think technology is the golden spoon to accurate valuations.

Like I said to start: doesn’t make sense to me.

Dave Towne

Dave Towne

AGA, MNAA, Accredited Green Appraiser - Licensed in WA State since 2003. Dave Towne on e-AppraisersDirectory.com

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82 Responses

  1. Avatar Kimberly DeFilppis says:

    I absolutely disagree with your headline including the words “dying profession”. The profession is not dying. The number of professionals practicing the art is dwindling. And that’s because of age. There are more users of appraisal reports than just the GSEs and your article seems specifically aimed at that particular group of users. Biden allies know that when becoming an appraiser becomes a financial liability for the entrant, the Feds will subsidize their education, costing those in the protected classes nothing to acquire the necessary “diploma”. There are plenty of other users of appraisal products. So what do you think happens when automation takes away the GSEs need for appraisers? Do you think the American public and the NAR is going to roll over when their loans are denied and home sales decline? How does that affect the economy? When the loan goes into default, and the original lender is forced to buy back the paper, who is qualified to advise the value of the property in its current state? An AVM? An appraisal waiver? I don’t think so. The need for qualified appraisers is never going away. And the color of your skin does not reflect your abilities and it doesn’t reflect BIAS. It’s our government doing that, including FNMA’s single family collateral risk management leadership. Stop being manipulated by “nothing to look at here folks, take a look at this!”. Defend your profession at every juncture. And if you don’t like the way the GSEs are conducting business and how they are treating appraisers, then find your work elsewhere. Because let me tell you. when the shit hits the fan and the banks are forced to buy-back loans because of an AVM and no face-to-face appraisal, those same banks are going to be searching out your services. Stay professional. Stay strong. Stay organized and don’t focus on the bullshit.

    21
    • Avatar Bryan says:

      They won’t have to buy anything back! The “too big to fail” financial institutions are propped up by the government (YOU). Fannie’s algo is telling them they don’t need an Appraisal. Although this is a coup for the lenders, it is not their fault. Secondary market appraising is definitely going away. We are just too slow for them. Since it is headed that way – maybe a month holiday would be fun. I’ll meet ya’ll wherever!

      2
      • Avatar john connor says:

        The debate has raged for decades about this being a profession. Is it or isn’t it. At any rate the good old tried and true apprentice method was killed by the Feds. No way we can afford to spend the time training that is required with little to no return on investment. In fact we are training our competition. The fact that a young pup can jump in the ring with me after so little drove me hang it up. I don’t miss it a bit.

        9
      • Avatar don says:

        Foreclosures are huge. The foreign and alien lenders are keeping them in differing packages including rentals.

        0
    • Avatar donald Silva says:

      God Bless you, wish everyone had the same attitude and pride you do.

      You’re right, this is a proud and needed profession. I was always proud to say what I did, but got so tired of the negativity, had to retire after 35 years of combat duty..

      7
    • I’m with you sort of, Appraising is not an Art, we don’t create anything, appraising is theoretical in nature and grounded in empirical data . . . that said, lenders have been forced to use our services since FIRREA and they resent it, they’ve been trying to get rid of the pesky speed bump appraiser ever since. The technology is remarkable and getting smarter every day, but it will never replace a skilled boots on the ground appraiser. Things are fine now, prices up, no foreclosures, but as soon as the market turns the machines will be inaffective. There have been way too many appraisal waivers and hybrids, the data is iffy at best. Let’s compare what the AVM says to what the home actually sells for in a declining market, good appraisers are better at catching a falling knife than a computer model. Let’s not forget, who’s programming the algorithm? certainly not someone who knows the local markets. Once again someone “moved the cheese” – just like in 2009 its time to find the clients AGAIN.

      4
    • Avatar don says:

      “Professional” is an attitude. Gained with recognized experience and enjoyed in retirement.
      Kim you are correct appraisers will always be needed. But ain’t everybody gifted.
      Someone oversold our profession and the numbers increased beyond the gifted.
      Even Government has a RIF (reduction in force) from time to time.

      0
    • Avatar MBG says:

      It is fine … dying ?
      Find
      It happens in a lot of professions

      First symptoms of dying … low orders and low pay.. can’t at your bills
      Cause-waivers, bifurcated/hybrid, AMC cashing in on your work
      Dying is not always about work but income

      The hustle is not worth it…

      AMC are mostly crooks … pimp system that was designed to take advantage of appraisers

      I am tired ! Not old enough to retire so figuring out alternative employment for next two decades

      5
  2. Avatar Older & Honest says:

    Unfortunately have to agree that appraising as I have known it since around 1995 is a dying profession. In the mid nineties appraisers were being paid around $350 to $500 for a full appraisal report. Nowadays appraisers are being offered the same amount or less from most AMC’s. If that does not point to a dying profession, what else does?

    Fannie Mae wants us gone. Waivers and AVM options anyone?

    All the Appraisal Foundation wants from us is to pay for classes and seminars that tell us that the FHA and Fannie Mae and everyone else wants to use AVM’s and waivers.

    They want the cost of the appraisal report cut. Not the cost of a title report. Not the cost of escrow. Not the cost of a home inspection. Not the cost of a pest inspection. Just the appraisal report.

    They want the time to get an opinion of value to be the same day. Not the title report. Not the pest inspection. Not the home inspection. Just the appraisal report.
    Glad I am almost done with this “career”. Walmart is hiring at $20 per hour.

    24
    • Avatar Bryan says:

      Exactly!

      5
    • Avatar Connie Marines says:

      OMG…that is the most spot on thing I’ve ever heard. You are so right. My countdown is on too, ten more months. Can’t wait.

      6
    • Avatar Andre says:

      I agree. Any “profession” that places providers on the same rung of the ladder regardless of experience is not a profession. That is a gig. Yes this is only in the case of mortgage lending; however the vast majority of residential appraisers are mortgage lender/AMC appraisers. Most residential appraisers are not good business owners, they are good appraisers. Most residential appraisers are not capable or willing to source non-lender work. (probably not enough to go around anyway). Why on earth would anyone want to subject themselves to the financial and time outlay to end up in a gig worker, chasing 1004’s for peanuts? The reality is, someone with the aptitude, education and experience to be an appraiser can command $100,000 +/- in a remote role as an operations analyst, financial analyst, data analyst, real estate analyst (non-CRE), etc…Jobs where you get 401k, PTO, no target on your back, medical insurance, etc..

      I just do not see residential appraising as an appealing opportunity in terms of ROI or a long-term option to support a family.

      4
      • good points, but most residential fee appraisers do other things, Broker, Landlord, the appraising is a part of the pie. Anyone that just does mortgage work eventually learns this is Appraising is not a sustainable career, boom bust. I honestly don’t know one residential appraiser that spends 100% of their time appraising.

        0
        • Avatar don says:

          Sure, We all should look to our future for retirement.
          I enjoyed all 57 years, until 2018. Now kibitzing is my only entertainment.

          0
  3. Retired Appraiser Retired Appraiser says:

    I have a suggestion; bring in dead people. They are seldom disappointed when things don’t work out and most would be thrilled with those generous $200 fees because they can still claim they are just trying to “make a living”. You can offer discounts on education at the local funeral homes. Easy to teach… no mouthing off in class… and a God send for those pesky AMCs who hate fighting with appraisers on a daily basis.

    5
  4. Retired Appraiser Retired Appraiser says:

    We appear to have come full circle. They are now trying to entice “people of color” to enter a profession that has been jokingly referred to as “INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE” since 2009. You can’t make this stuff up.

    8
  5. Avatar michael ford (not that one) says:

    good lord what does color have to do with this? “hey, i have a great idea, let’s encourage minorities to enter into a trade that those who know it best are fleeing”. as an observer and user of appraisers services for nearly 30 years i can say it amazes me that y’all have tolerated the pay cuts which are accompanied by workload pile-on’s. Kim DeFilippis, your cheerful analysis is all well and good, but i fear you are whistling past the graveyard. Relying on the NAR is laughable. they were the dunces behind CA’s prop 19 recently. that they did it with my dues made me see red.

    7
  6. Avatar Frank Wilson says:

    course cost will be up to 5 figures, roughly $10,000 or possibly more.

    Of course if you are one of the protected classes I’m sure it will be free, or de facto free with easy loans that never have to be paid back.

    4
    • Baggins Baggins says:

      Honk if I’m paying your…

      You’re making me all teary eyed and stuff, stop. This take is not equitable. Our only obligation from this point forward is more equity. It’s not rocket science.

      0
  7. Avatar Jeffrey N. Allen says:

    I have tried to include people of color in my training but when i told one man the cost to get the classwork and the lack of serious pay that they should expect in the first year, i never heard from him again. The other person of color was not spatially competent to inspect a house within one hour. He would have taken two hours to measure a house even before noting various aspects of it. In short, he was an accountant trying to be an appraiser. When i backtracked to have him start in an easy house, he did not show up for the inspection. I am eager to help but it takes too much financial sacrifice and it takes a special mindset to complete the process to become an appraiser. Sorry to say but I probably am not a good instructor. I would love the help the right person.

    1
    • Baggins Baggins says:

      The affirmative action hires may want to take a quick look at their future competition.

      https://mailchi.mp/3b9a1e5ab225/december-trainee-update-14151734

      1
      • Avatar Bryan says:

        Didn’t Fannie get 50 mil to improve diversity? My company is for sale. Buy it and give it to whomever you like.

        3
        • Baggins Baggins says:

          The Appraisal Coach has entered the chat.

          2
          • Avatar Bryan says:

            What’s an Appraisal Coach?

            0
            • Avatar Dandydon Silva says:

              Someone who tells you how to do something but will not do the thing because of liability and nonsense in that field.

              2
            • Baggins Baggins says:

              The appraisal coach is a licensed appraiser, and that was his brand. He’s famous for mental backflips to justify performance standards most appraisers would not touch with a ten foot pole, then selling his business right in the end. You mentioned to sell the appraisal business in sarcasm, but there are people whom really did take advantage that way. Hence; ‘The appraisal coach has entered the chat’. It’s like saying Jason or Freddie is knocking at the door or the paper boy demanding his $2 dollars. Do not answer the door! Just ask the poster Bill Johnson, he never misses a chance to take a jab at Harris.

              http://www.appraisalcoach.com/
              Hold the show! That’s not the coach we all love to hate, it’s an entirely different person! Oh how precious, for only $600 to $1,000 every single month, you can have your own appraisal coach on speed dial for career building and something about baby rearing in the workshop tab. Wait, what the hell is going on here? I’m doing additional email research. Well, that figures… Did I even find the right website in the first place?
              https://scamwarners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=279077

              Oh I had the wrong website, it’s ‘the appraisal coach’, not just appraisal coach. There he is, old baldy and the all star team. If you have that extra subscription dough you can join the dream team to really learn how to undercut peer appraiser fees to bribe your way to the lions share of amc orders. But according to Bill, he’s moved on to some tech firm or something, yet the website remains… Curious, but why stop raking it in if people keep falling for it. They could have just saved a lot of money and spent more time on this website instead. This guy loves third party inspections… Is it my memory fooling me or is the entire commentary roll simply gone? Perhaps it’s my ad blockers. Remember according to the coach, appraisers do not merely analyze value, we create value too. If you ever wondered where the general public got all these improper notions about what an appraiser does, and what our proper function is.
              https://theappraisercoach.com/
              https://theappraisercoach.libsyn.com/321-do-hybrid-appraisals-violate-uspap
              https://appraisaltoday.com/2015/07/08/uspap-nazi/
              Here, this final link unlike the rest, is well worth your time to read. Even has interview references from Dave.
              https://www.workingre.com/navigating-hybrid-appraisals-2/

              0
    • Avatar don says:

      Went to the local hi school, asked the business dept. for the best student, and was recommended a black girl. She was escorted to my interview with her father, and I was impressed. a month later I returned to the office and listened to her speaking in Ebonics on My telephone. I paid the going wage for part time secretaries and declined any incentives and continue to do so. I make mistakes and I pay for them. So, should everyone else.

      3
  8. Avatar Johnny says:

    So, who or what has prevented blacks or any other race of people, from entering the profession? Where is the bias?

    3
    • Avatar Frank Wilson says:

      I saw 2 minorities leave the profession for government jobs. It wasn’t because of discrimination, it was because the government jobs were a better opportunity for them. I don’t think I could get hired for those jobs because of the color of my skin.

      4
    • its very difficult to enter the profession no matter who you are, that’s the way the Federal Government set it up, finding a supervisor has always been difficult . . . who is going to spend countless hours training someone that really ends up being their direct competition?? We all know this, you’ve got to be a family member, close friend or very lucky. Plus, it used to take two years to train for very little money, young black youth don’t have the resources to go into the profession. It’s infuriating appraisers are being blamed for the problems, the government set up the whole hot mess. They will F it up again, just watch.

      7
      • Baggins Baggins says:

        I’ve accidentally talked two different trainees out of it, just after seeing how it really shakes out after a mere few weeks of in person time. I gave up, no trainees here. Now I just ask them; Why would you volunteer for the abuse? Now and then they call up begging for a mentor and I offer a simple $10,000 a year price tag. They’re often surprised to learn that’s what I need them to pay me, not the other way around. I think it’s a deal, I worked damned near 4 years for practically free for my license, off and on.

        5
        • Retired Appraiser Retired Appraiser says:

          Would you actually take $10,000 per year to train anyone Baggins? I wouldn’t take less than $30,000 because of the time it would take away from actually making money. Did the Coach really sell his business or were you kidding? There was actually another dude several years ago marketing appraisal training. This guy was so bold to post pictures of himself on the website standing between an exotic sports car and a Lear jet. Who knows…maybe it was “The Coach in his younger years”.

          1
          • Baggins Baggins says:

            I did offer that a few times. But yeah, it was a long time ago when I had this big old home all to myself. These days I just don’t even want to deal with it, space challenges and all. I’ll put a license in my daughters hands though, if they’re up for it one day. See what it all looks like another decade or so from now. If we’re not incinerated by nukes or eroding from the inside due to biological weapons release. I tell you dude, the people in government these days…

            5
          • Avatar Bill Johnson says:

            Per the coach’s own words, he sold his appraisal business and is now a W2 employee for True Footage. He also said he has not been a fulltime appraiser since the iPhone 4 (2010).

            “Do as I say and not as I do comes to mind.”

            Seek the truth.

            3
  9. Avatar Bryan says:

    Who would want to enter it?

    2
    • Baggins Baggins says:

      People trapped in skyrise cubicles dreaming of independence and getting away from the desk.

      The appraisal industry has a messaging short circuit lately.

      2
      • Avatar Bryan says:

        You’re so uplifting! Lol. I technically retired last week. No more secondary market stuff anyway. That’s where the mill begins. If you want a ton of disrespect secondary is the place to be. I’ve been at this for 30 years this April. My son has over 15. More worried about his future. “Mommas don’t let your babies grow up to be cowboys”. Sing along while you mow?

        1
        • Baggins Baggins says:

          It was inevitable that all the lawn mowing jokes would one day blow back at me… Thanks for noticing though. I did have a dream. Now that dream is gone from me.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfVh1v7GGKY
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzl24cqouqM

          Trying to get two videos into one post here. Can it be done? The lawn mower dreaming of the moon, and lawn mower prank.

          0
        • Baggins Baggins says:

          Edit, trying to get the in screen player, oh well, I just don’t understand that. Mod explained it to me but forgot.

          Bryan, I should not have even looked. But now that I did, can’t turn away, not again. The dream is back. I’m back! I was unaware that lawn mowers could fly. This changes everything, for real. OMG he’s doing flips and loops, defying gravity upside down, soft landing and everything, wow. That is the inspiration I needed, thanks for the reminder. Spring will be here soon.

          That was a pleasant escape from the nightmare which is appraisal. Back to work, I accidentally applied with an amc yesterday and now have to find a way out before the discount fee harassment takes hold. I knew right away when I read the follow up;

          Please take in just a few welcome “tips”. FIRST: Customer service is our #1 priority. We appreciate and require communication as well as follow through. Please abide by the due date given as these dates are released to our clients and our system measures appraiser performance based on the these dates being met. SECOND: We require borrowers to be contacted the same day the order is received, should you not ask for assistance scheduling. If you receive an order prior to 2:00 PM, we will require that the borrower be contacted to schedule an appointment the same day. If you receive the order after 2:00 PM, than it will be your responsibility to contact the borrower prior to 12:00 PM the following business day. This is to ensure our clients expectations are being met.

          Appraiser performance is graded on turn time, quality & communication. In many cases, the system grades without any effort on our part, which means we can not alter the results of the grade given. In order to maintain a good performing score and remain eligible to receive work we will require that you communicate with us in regards to due dates, problems reaching borrowers to schedule appointments, and incorrect order details.

          We look forward to a long lasting relationship and the opportunity to work with you!

          Me; 1. I don’t get graded or judged by people whom don’t have appraisal licenses themselves, I do the grading, because I’m the boss of this little business. 2. I do not respond to micro management. 3. I’m not your damn employee. 4. My order, my schedule. 5. The attention to automation is so unprofessional, treating me like I can and will be substituted on a moments notice. 6. I don’t share my fee. 7. It’s a damn bait and switch to have this entire website and appraiser application page without disclosing you’re an amc.

          1
          • Avatar Bryan says:

            Flying lawn mower ride alongs?? You could hook up a camera (like a drone) and see which lawns need to be mowed and swoop in. Partners? I’m looking for a retirement gig.

            0
            • Baggins Baggins says:

              https://www.aslpreservationsolutions.com/2017/03/05/a-guide-to-pricing-matrix-of-nationals
              Relatively current grass cutting fees. What would you rather do, a high liability appraisal hybrid backed by your personal license and insurance for $50 and never leave the house, or a never ending stream of bi monthly lawn mows being out and about in the sun for anywhere from $70 to $900 depending on grass height and yard sq ft, work until you drop or choose to stop? Hire a crew, sit in the truck and just spend most of your time pushing the quotes, invoices, and receivables. Dudes I was talking to whom actually do this have dozens of employees, warehouses full of equipment, etc. One guy out of TX even offered me a free ride along from his older equipment if I wanted to get started. When the rental directly across the street from my house turned over, I watched some jr start up young guy lift up a mower from his little truck bed and make a big show of it for a single. My heart jumped and I almost died. I’m telling you Brian, the dream was and remains within reach…

              https://nfronline.com/the-front-lines-of-property-preservation/
              Industry commentary, and leads.

              https://www.property-preservation.us/education-training/
              A complete how to guide for starting up a field services company. Had a vice president of one of the largest preservation companies send me this.

              There has been a little turn around here but I’m just not sure which direction to head. Basically appraisal has become a sort of couch business again and many of us will simply have to wait for some of these things to shake out before making a strong run at it again. Will the industry continue along this path of corporate consolidation, will the modernization efforts stand the test of time, will the inevitable complaints of diversity new hires finally get through to people? Will the wholesale sellout and betrayal of trust by TAF Appraisal Foundation and ASB continue? Only time will tell. In the meantime… The alternative is legal, irs, get to know the yellow book, county assessor, blm work, open individual requests, all of that. Not my cup of tea, the goal remains constant; to have to sell less, in doing so acquire a steady stream of consistent work. I’m not going back to private requests, have absolutely no interest or inclination to deal with lawyers or go to courthouses on purpose, and definitely am not going to spin my wheels explaining scope of work to every corner joe who finds my number online. I have not even answered the phone except for a small set of already established people in something like five years, true story.

              0
        • Avatar john connor says:

          55 years and i gave it up

          don’t miss a thing about it

          0
  10. Avatar mike ford (not the one you love) says:

    your trade has been under assault for years. the de minimus rule was the first i sensed of the end of your trade. i am going off of vague memory but i think it was 1997 and at the time the near majority of my town was below the $250,000 threshold as were 90% of the towns adjacent. i remember an old horse telling me the handwriting was on the wall for him and his kind. as i reflect on it there have been repeated efforts to pare down the costs of borrowing by trimming fees for title and other closing statement fees. the title companies stomped on that toot sweet (tout de suite for the sophisticates in the audience) because they are a VERY coherent lobby with FAT and DEEP pockets protecting a genuine golden egg laying goose. we did see escrow fees hammered as the bigguns (FATCO, FNF) saw easy fees and the rise of electronic everything from doc delivery to signatures. realtor fees have been cut across the board on a percentage basis but i will still tell you that my trade is GROSSLY overpaid with sales commonly at $1.2m and well beyond. the work we do on a 2 million dollar file is no more than that of the million dollar file. so let the regulators and elected hacks peddle their ignorant blather but believe it, your trade is CRUCIAL to a proper loan file with no hanky panky but your trade is still done. more’s the bummer because the taxpayers will backstop the losses, but hey, gubmint is daddy, right? like travel agents that still have a toehold on stuff like cruises or corporate stuff the trade as a whole is going going gone. what remains will not be the pros we know now, but clerks and minions. BPO’s are an easy kill. i am licensed in hawaii, oregon and california. anyone want to open shop and do twelve or eighteen a day? the lenders seem to think they’re legit. maybe they would be if one of you guys did ’em, but now they’re done by green pea realtors that couldn’t find their ass with two hands. just an idea.

    4
    • Avatar Bryan says:

      I was told by a Bank owner in 1997 to find a new career. They had just returned from a Banker’s convention in New York. The theme was do whatever it takes to eliminate us. Luckily I fed my family doing appraisals for a long time after that but I have watched the assault since then. They finally figured out some Hate words to get it done. Should have bought a Title Company!

      1
      • Avatar mike ford (dur, uhhh...) says:

        oh hell yeah on the title company. if i had to do it again i’d open up a brokered TI shop, hire some “dancers” from the local “gentlemens club” and let them loose. build a book of business, get bought out and move to some pacific island to surf and help unwed mothers get their start. i’d call it Ecdysia Title (you all remember your greek history right?) or Totally Inspirational Title. extra points if you can cite who i ripped off on the T.I.T. moniker.

        1
      • Baggins Baggins says:

        We stopped by in and out burger joint for the first time the other day. Always lines around the block so we had to finally go and see what the hype was all about. They’re hiring for $23 dollars an hour but I’m just not sure I could adorn the funny white hat with the prerequisite panache. And you know what, the burgers were really awful like Culvers is way better. We’re shocked people line up for that trash food. Fudruckers pulled out of CO, still missing the one pounder and open condiment bar to this day all these years later.

        What occurred to me is the power of suggestion and how god awfully stupid people are these days, just ready automatons doing what they are told, going where the commercial solicitations tell them to go. If covid taught us anything, it’s that our best and brightest are not populating the important positions within our business and government sectors.

        My Bank just downgraded their phone systems where we can’t even use numerical entries to access our account anymore, and instead now insist we talk to the virtual robot deal to get access or risk it all with mobile banking. Rule number 1; we do not talk to robots, never, it’s never going to happen. The phone lady however insisted this was an improved user experience and she honestly believed it, because she was told to believe it. I swear, people over the past few years have simply lost their ability to think independently, they are devoid of ethical understanding and fair dealing principals.

        Same thing for appraisal automation, they’re just regurgitating tag lines over and over without even bothering to observe or recognize a consistent stream of valid warnings, suggestions, and criticism. If I have to hear ‘that’s where the appraisal industry is headed’ one more time… The other side of the coin is that the majority of the appraiser populace is in fact approaching retirement age, many are already past. Mortgage lending is the river which always flows and for as much signaling as is being paid to appraisal modernization, the changes are simply experiments dreamed up by bureaucrats, they won’t stand the test of time. They will all fold on the position when the need for volume fulfillment returns. It’s simply untenable, the notion the appraiser can do 10x the work for a tenth of the compensation, be tied to the desk all day and somehow find more fulfillment and training potential in the position. That dog does not hunt.

        1
        • Avatar Bryan says:

          The most dangerous things you know are those things you know to be true that in fact are not.

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          • Baggins Baggins says:

            A Mark Twain reference? I’d never heard that before and googled it.

            I suppose I may be missing the context or just being dense, what does that mean?

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            • Avatar Bryan says:

              Yes – Samuel Clemens. I paraphrased but it was in reference to what you said. People absolutely believe everything they hear and read (IE appraisal bias) and repeat it (regurgitating). If you (the public) hear anything enough you will begin to believe it. No one bothers to research anything and find out the truth (well – except for you).

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              • Baggins Baggins says:

                Thanks. I’m just a regular guy whom tries to read objective information from the internet.

                We know they are lying. They know they are lying, they know that we know they are lying. We know that they know that we know they are lying. And they still continue to lie.

                (NAR hiding in the corner like cowards chattering fingers hoping all these accusatory fingers don’t get pointed at them, apparently eager to sell appraisers down the river. Because, you know, it’s the current thing to hate on evil biased racist appraisers.)
                https://www.nar.realtor/magazine/real-estate-news/commentary/action-steps-to-take-against-appraisal-bias

                ‘The action plan also suggests developing procedures to ensure automated valuation models do not incorporate bias in their estimations of value.’

                Anyone care to explain how exactly they will accomplish that one? The only thing I can think of is actually applying a bias to purposefully over value certain housing units. That’s nice, more taxes and over investment in refinance figures which are not actually reflective of current market conditions. Can anyone explain to me what exactly is wrong with lower prices?

                I mean for real, has anyone stopped to think that the agents themselves are biased, attempting to rack up additional commissions for non white buyers whom presumably are not as financially educated, and the appraiser is the only one actually protecting these consumers?

                https://www.nar.realtor/magazine/real-estate-news/sales-marketing/residential-appraisers-data-scientists-artists-or-quacks
                This is actually a great article with a very misleading headline. It’s a downright irresponsible headline actually, as there is no guarantee the reader will go any further than the blurb.

                https://www.nar.realtor/magazine/real-estate-news/commentary/rooting-out-appraisal-bias
                On specific language an appraiser should not use, such as ‘desirable neighborhood’ or ‘pride of ownership’. Specifically defining that particular language as a biased language.

                Let’s try a research experiment.
                Google search term; “desirable neighborhood’, for sale
                (Don’t forget the quotation marks, and the comma.)
                Well, there are simply too many exact match results to even bother detailing. I do believe the pot called the kettle black, again.

                Let’s try this one; “Pride of ownership”, for sale
                Oh crap, it’s a boat load of specific listing examples current, and then some.

                Don’t let your lying eyes deceive you, all market faults are because of the appraiser, the realty sales community has no influence here.

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              • Avatar don says:

                Who’d believe anything about racing frogs?

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  11. Avatar dandydon--not the dead one says:

    Boy, after a couple of days, there has been a lot of activity on this $100,000 shortage going on— I JUST HAVE ONE QUESTION— how in the hell could such smart and intellectual bunch of people that I have seen here, let moron’s push u around and take advantage of us– We have a great group of professional’s that are “”head and shoulders”” above the so called PROS in this business who use our services. God almighty, if we were organized and had a strong association none of this crap would be going on today. I could go on for another 1,350,450 words, but I would probably fall asleep or pass out– I am retired, but I give a damn for all of you and I always will.

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    • Avatar Bryan says:

      Wow – two retired Appraisers!! I always said I have never been to a retirement party for an Appraiser – just funerals. Things are looking up!

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      • Avatar don silva says:

        Brian, after 55 years of working, it was time to give some time to myself and family.

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        • Avatar Bryan says:

          Amen!! I started working in a body shop I walked to after school (7th and 8th grade). I’ll be 65 soon. That’s long enough!

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        • Baggins Baggins says:

          This old appraiser guy whom was about to retire told me when I was new and basically was just barely making it; It’s important to make time for yourself, don’t let them pull you around all the time. They will demand more of your time than is good for you to give. Spend time with your family and don’t let appraisal be your entire life.

          At the time I just thought, thanks for believing in me but that’s never going to happen, nobody is going to want me over all these big shot gold watch wearing suit and ties. I kept dreaming of a world I thought I would never see, then one day… You got in? That’s right man, I got in.

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        • Avatar john connor says:

          i did the same

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    • Avatar don says:

      don ain’t dead, alive and having computer and phone problems

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  12. Avatar Howard W. says:

    How does anyone know that the appraisal profession is bias? Who exactly is stopping minorities from entering the profession? Who is putting up their hand and saying “STOP” to minorities? The current appraiser has no say as to who should be an appraiser and cannot be blamed for the shortage of minorities or industry bias. As far as bias in appraisal reports, how many appraisers have been sued for bias/discrimination and how many of those have had judgements against them. I don’t know. But I bet the number is minuscule.

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    • Avatar Charles Minzenberger says:

      the argument is the “97% white 60+ year old” appraisers don’t take on minority trainees. Jillian White has a personal story about this worth listening to. Finding a mentor is probably the hardest part of the process, we all know this, knowing how the business works most anyone who knows will only take on a trainee who we already know, a family member or friend, or a referral from a trusted friend – afterall, we are training our competition, not a great business decision to do this, so we need to trust the people we train. More integration in schools and communities might help this in the future. The cases are rare, the one coming up this fall out of Marin CA will be telling how this all shakes out. In the interim we all have targets on our backs. It should go without saying don’t discriminate or be bias, careful what you write and say. If all you have is a hammer everything looks like racism/bias. I just took my bianual fair housing course, why the appraisers are being singled out is a mystery, the Realtors and Banks should be looked at more closely – again.

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  13. Avatar Raymond says:

    Interesting comments………….46 years, I entered the appraisal profession because my employer was seeking to hire minorities or people of color (as some here have stated). A year after I started with the financial institution, my employer was found to be practicing “redlining” in its mortgage lending activity. Lending institutions have always considered the appraisal as just a obstacle and a cost of doing business. Minimal considerations was given to the appraisal as a risk management feature. Thus, those appraisers still working for lending groups should always feel, they are 1 step away from elimination(or replacement). I left my lending clients 20 years ago and found out that appraising for non-lending purposes is much better situation. I’m a short timer now a days.

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  14. For those who can’t remember or maybe entered the profession after the last housing bust (2008-2013), the premise in the decade prior was that statistical improvements in credit scoring and valuation algorithms would create a more secure and seamless collateral lending and investment experience. We were told that an army of sophisticated statisticians and MBA’s were ushering in a new dawn in the history of valuations and investments.

    How did that work out?

    Now the same gurus who promoted the last hoax are back touting another miracle cure. This time in the name of equity and inclusion. God helps us!

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  15. Avatar SETH S says:

    Im 36 and this is my third year in the profession and I love it. Maybe because I dont know how good the old times were but my father, who has been an appraiser for the last 33 years, does nothing but bitch about it like most of you. All I ever hear from old timers is complaining and doomsday predictions. My first two years certified and ive made more money and had more free time than any other time in my life. And I work for myself! Its a blessing. Cities like Austin have tried automated appraisal platforms and it didnt work out.

    Oh and once all of you old timers retire I’ll just have more business. God bless!

    1
    • Avatar Chuck Minzenberger, SRA says:

      you are funny, the last few years have been a golden age of sorts, I hope you went commercial, if so you may be OK, if not, god bless

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  16. Avatar nunya says:

    You all are just trying to apply logic to a corporate or government offered solution.

    “not gonna happen”

    Applying logic in response to any corporate or government issue will ALWAYS result in death.

    Death by a thousand cuts or immediate and compulsory implosion….

    Always.

    Turn off the logic circuits and everything goes hunky dory and that gumberbent check goes down ohhh so easy…

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    • Avatar Raymond says:

      The appraisal profession has always been a leaderless group of professionals. Lenders and lender interest groups have known this for decades. Thus, these non-appraiser lenders can stand UP and dominate the appraisal process. The appraisal profession has minimal say on appraisal issues for mortgage lending purposes. Appraisers individually can comply or seek other client types.

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  17. Avatar Craig says:

    I can agree with the young appraisers that love the appraisal business. I remember having to pinch myself to make sure this was real. I loved everything about appraising and had that attitude for nearly 30 years. Now, after 41 years as an appraiser I retired 1/15/2023. I didn’t plan to retire but after 30 years as an independent fee appraiser I had to make some changes. I spent roughly 30 years in the Sacramento, CA market but I had to leave California as I couldn’t take the way the State was run any longer. I took a job as a staff appraiser at an appraisal company in Henderson, NV. I had a great two years there but due to a slowdown in mortgage work I wasn’t working much. It was about this time that the appraisal bias stuff started to be a big issue. I think the bias issue isn’t in regards to minorities in the business but, rather the claim that two appraisers, appraising the same house came up with big differences in value. It is true they are also looking at the need for more minorities in the business but what they are going after is bias in valuing homes of minorities, specifically black residents.

    As I saw how things were heading and there are many more changes in the works, I decided enough was enough and appraising was no longer an enjoyable occupation. I planned to work another 3-5 years as I just turned 64 but I couldn’t take the changes. I wish all the appraisers’ success in staying with it, but I’ve done my time and I look forward to my retirement.

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  18. Avatar Joseph Stachow Jr says:

    I’ve read all the comments on this link; some are very true, some are just silly. I have been an appraiser for only 18 years but here is my take on what is happening. We as residential/lending appraisers are being phased out by the “big guys”, FannieMae, FreddieMac, FHA/HUD, lenders, realtors all want us gone because we are too expensive, take too long & hold up closings, kill deals because the house isn’t worth what the giddy real estate agent is selling it for (10% over asking). I did a “rush” appraisal in October 2022 and it still hasn’t closed, just an example of the aforementioned parties stupidity. But, if you just do lending appraisal work your work is going to diminish, you HAVE to branch out into the other avenues of business that need appraisals, it’s not going to happen overnight or be easy but you have to do it; divorce, tax litigation, estate planning, bail bond, local credit unions who do portfolio loans are a few, there are more.

    We can’t just sit around wringing our hands over what is happening, we as appraisers have no one on our side pleading our case; the Appraisal Institute does NOTHING for us except come out with the ridiculous USPAP every 2 years, the NAR backs realtors, we have NO ONE. We have to get off our keisters and beat the pavement looking for new cheese, yes they are moving our cheese and we can’t stop it.

    If we put just a few hours weekly into establishing new clients who appreciate our knowledge and expertise we can continue to do appraisals well into retirement age and beyond.

    1
    • Avatar Don Silva says:

      Spot on, we do have nothing for representation, so exactly as you said, branch out into other areas that need our services. Nicely said. Thank you.

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    • Avatar James Anderson says:

      Exactly…If you appraise for lenders and AMC’s, then Dave’s point is correct, the industry is dying. But if you expand your practice and specialize in certain areas, the future looks fine. If you become an appraiser that specializes in very difficult properties and become an expert in court testimony, you can pretty much set your fee.

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  19. Avatar Vince Slupski says:

    Most residential appraisers will shortly go the way of ice deliverymen, stenographers, and travel agents. Appraisal is not intellectually coherent (is it predictive? normative? descriptive? Are appraisers supposed to be smarter than the market, or just as stupid as the market?). It relies on ancient techniques like adjustment grids based on opinion and rules of thumb. These techniques use circular logic to self-justify. People don’t make decisions based on adjustment grids – did you prepare one when you bought your last car? Appraisals are 10X the price and 20X the time of an AVM, which can be ordered and received at the beginning of a transaction rather than the end. AVMs have a quantity of data and statistical validation that an appraiser can’t possibly match. And it’s hard to accuse a computer of racial bias. The scandal isn’t that appraisers are racially biased and produce different values after “whitewashing.” The real scandal is that two appraisers, using the standard techniques and theories, can come up with widely divergent values. That indicates something is wrong with the techniques, theories, and standards. Clients wonder what value appraisers add, when they couldn’t prevent either the S&L crash or the boom-bust of the mid-2000s, and we’ll see what happens after the boom of the early 2020s. Why pay $500 apiece for that?

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    • Avatar Overpaid lazy appraiser says:

      While i dont disagree with you, let me suggest that POSSIBLY the 2 wildly different values may not be the result of different values but the result of different people.

      One person wants to keep getting AMC work and is willing to work for ‘free/cheap’ while the other doesnt give aflyin flip what the AMC thinks and just does their job and reports a conclusion of the data.

      When I see offers come across my email for HARD rural way out properties with an extra 1007/216 plus who knows what and the fee they are so graciously offering is $350 (real world example within last 60 days). And I click on it out of curiosity because i cant believe my eyes and the robots in the portal say-this appraisal has already been accepted by another appraiser.
      No wonder… dot dot dot…

      Yep-I own a milk delivery truck from the 1950’s-got it for free!

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Bringing More People Into a Dying Profession!

by Dave Towne time to read: 2 min
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