Need for Speed? Hybrids are NOT the Answer!

VaCAP Board

VaCAP Board

Coalition of Appraisers in Virginia at Virginia Coalition of Appraiser Professionals
Coalition of individual appraisers working together to unite, promote and protect the collective interests of all appraisal professionals in Virginia; to promote needed changes in laws, rules, regulations, policies and standards affecting all appraisers in Virginia; to observe and report the actions of regulatory, legislative, oversight, and standards-setting entities of the Commonwealth.
VaCAP Board

Latest posts by VaCAP Board (see all)

Need for Speed? AMC vs Direct Lender Ordered Appraisals TATs Study…surveys indicate that appraisals ordered directly by lenders take much less time…

Dear Colleagues,

There is a current narrative that appraisals take too long and cost the consumer too much! Does this sound accurate? Preliminary coalition surveys indicate that appraisals ordered directly by lenders take much less time than appraisals ordered by AMCs. Additionally, the cost of Hybrid Appraisals has been disclosed in reports as $495 being paid to the AMC. How is this a savings to the consumer? They get an inferior valuation product and pay the same price as a full appraisal. Who is truly benefiting from this scenario?

Fannie and Freddie have some sort of fixation on the “need for speed” in the appraisal process. Dropping the misleading 1004MC form is a HUGE step in the right direction!

Next step? Put six informed, active, boots on the ground Appraisers in a conference room with 4 reps from Fannie/Freddie and 2 reps from the lenders and 1 rep from an AMC. However, the AMC reps must know SOMETHING about appraising.

The results? A new and better appraisal form acceptable to all. It should NOT take years to do this. It can be done in a weekend!

Problem solved!?!? Well, almost. Two states have conducted studies regarding TATs comparing appraisals ordered from direct lenders to orders placed by AMCs. BOTH showed AMCs take twice as long to just PLACE the order. Forget stupid follow up stipulations from the AMC.

Now VaCAP requests assistance from Appraiser colleagues across the country. Sample spreadsheets have been distributed to all State Coalitions. If you have not received it please go to VaCAP’s website to get yours and start participating.

The more participation, the more reliable and transparent the results will be.

Why is VaCAP doing this? For consumer, lender, and realtor knowledge and protections. Hybrids are NOT the answer. They were not thought up by Fannie and Freddie. This weak, dangerous and imprudent idea came from somewhere else. Guess where!?!

Appraisal waivers?

Well, just ask friends and neighbors how stupidly crazy that is.

VaCAP will run this study through the end of September. Please return your own fair and honest results to info@vacaponline.com by September 30th.

We will openly and fairly publish the results. Simply, it’s called transparency.

For the official instructions and to download the spreadsheet, visit our website or download the spreadsheet here.

Image credit flickr - TNS Sofres
VaCAP Board

VaCAP Board

Coalition of individual appraisers working together to unite, promote and protect the collective interests of all appraisal professionals in Virginia; to promote needed changes in laws, rules, regulations, policies and standards affecting all appraisers in Virginia; to observe and report the actions of regulatory, legislative, oversight, and standards-setting entities of the Commonwealth.

You may also like...

101 Responses

  1. CHRIS says:

    They tried to fix a system that wasn’t really broken, All they had to do was license the supposed “financial advisors” which they have done, and not allow them to cry like babies to us deal after deal.

    Problem solved !!!

    7

    0
  2. Vincent R Simon on Facebook Vincent R Simon on Facebook says:

    Remove AMCs from the process.

    11

    0
  3. John Goldsmith on Facebook John Goldsmith on Facebook says:

    This guy is totally biased.

    2

    0
  4. Joyce J. Potts, SRA, AI-RRS says:

    Hybrids are one answer. They’re just the answer most residential appraisers want to hear. Many claim they are not USPAP or other regulatory compliant — like it not, those rules will soon change to facilitate the use of these hybrids. Appraisers had their chance to protect their intellectual property and they looked the other way. Welcome to the other way.

    3

    9
    • John Goldsmith on Facebook John Goldsmith on Facebook says:

      They might as well accept BPO’s

      5

      0
    • John Goldsmith on Facebook John Goldsmith on Facebook says:

      There are certain things that make me glad I’m getting old.

      3

      0
    • Joyce, Hybrids are not and never have been any kind of viable OR honest answer. They certainly are not the answer “most residential appraisers want to hear!” (Was that a typo? Meant to say NOT want to hear???)

      Joyce it’s not a case of “many claiming” hybrids are not compliant, it is a case of an unanswered open challenge to the profession and lending industry as a whole. I’ll repeat it here.

      Let just ONE promoter of hybrids provide a copy of a completed hybrid that they think is USPAP compliant, and prepared in the 15 to 20 minute time frames they keep claiming, for the (total) fee of $225 or less where an appraisers gets from $25 to $65 for doing them. Just one!

      Ernie Durbin are you listening? ACI/First American? CoreLamode clients?

      So far, NO ONE has been able to produce such a critter. NO ONE. Until someone does, then I (and many others) will continue to make the factual statement that they are not USPAP compliant nor are they designed to be …despite inclusive boilerplate within them claiming compliance.

      As for the like it or not rules change, the AI efforts to do that will continue to meet broad resistance.

      Why just today I read Richard Heyn was stating how members with designations are rightfully proud of them. Support for hybrids and alternative standards state by state has cost AI more credibility in the past two or three years than any other single issue in their history.

      8

      0
      • chris says:

        Well said Mike !!!

        3

        0
      • Joyce Potts, SRA, AI-RRS says:

        You’re missing the point and not acknowledging the better question. For many loan transactions, these types of products are cheaper, faster and equally on par with risk assessment.

        Wake up, people.

        0

        10
        • No Joyce YOU (along with AI) have completely missed the point.

          It’s about integrity and competency. AI opposed ‘comp checks’ for years. That’s ALL these hybrids and evals are. Lipstick on a pig. IF “speed and risk that is no worse” is to be the new metric then make it REALLY cheap and fast. Eliminate ALL inspections, pictures AND written reports. Just phone in a request for a comp check -and get it verbally on the spot. No record. No pretense and no calling the result “an appraisal.”

          If AI wants to reverse decades of their own teaching about what appraisals are and are not, that’s their business. Just don’t have the audacity to call the new garbage an ‘appraisal’.

          9

          1
          • chris says:

            Well said Mike.

            AI is a joke and has been for my 26 year career.

            9

            0
          • Joyce J. Potts, SRA, AI-RRS says:

            Sorry, but the point has made over and over again. Money talks. Since when does the AI, GSE, lender, etc., really care about integrity and competency? It’s about liability. The AI is primary behind the data mining – AI Ready ‘collusion’ deal with FNC. My question is why didn’t more appraisers see the writing on the wall?

            I won’t argue with you that the AI. No one is a bigger critic than I am.

            2

            0
            • Milton P says:

              Sorry Joyce, you loose credibility when you say “no one is a bigger critic of AI than I am” and you have  SRA, AI -RRS behind your name. If what you say / write is truly how you feel, you would not be member, much less designated.

              7

              0
            • Merv I Conlan says:

              Ms Potts, I enjoy you’re language / approach, one of the best here…but, it’s not about the money: it’s about CONTROL. Always is. And the folks who understand the least about CONTROL are the Repbubs (exception, Agent Orange, he’s not a Repub, he’s a Dem! didn’t realize that now did you?). The AI was irrelevant 20+yrs ago. On Hybrids: They separate inspection from analysis. Here’s the real question Joyce (if I may), what’s the most important part of the ‘Appraisal’? and do not under any circumstance say a word about ‘adding value’, OK? got the answer? Good. Now you can more effectively tell these guys where they are going off the rails.

              0

              2
        • chris says:

          It’s another gimmick from people who don’t want the people to have time to shop around for a better deal. It’s sales.

          5

          0
        • Baggins Baggins says:

          Let’s break this down.
          They are cheaper.
          They are faster.
          They are not equally on par with risk assessment.
          Reconcile with recently discovered facts.

          Clear Capital Value Not So ClearCut – What IS a “ClearVal Appraisal”?

          The more you know…

          5

          0
        • Bill Johnson says:

          Wrong Joyce.

          Seek the truth.

          5

          0
        • Power Bottom Logan says:

          Why would any self respecting appraiser give one penny to the Appraisal institute? They are an absolute scam. Pay a bunch of money for classes you can take elsewhere for a fraction of the price and at least those competing educators are not selling out our profession to the AMCS. I strongly advise every appraiser to boycott the Appraisal Institute and all hybrid products. No client or AMC should dictate how I produce credible results.

          2

          0
    • Jennie Scott on Facebook Jennie Scott on Facebook says:

      I had one of these famous hybrids performed on my own home and actually unknown that it had been been done until several months that after closing. I had specifically asked for a full appraisal during the loan process. It is now apparent that they did a hybrid and full appraisal with about a week of each other. There is a $135,000 difference in the values. Completely laughable. Credible assignment results? I say most definitely not. Only if the range of credible is 0 to infinity. And that third party that inspected my property missed the detached garage and stated the inspection took place on the 1st. Well my security cameras show that you were most definitely there on the 2nd. So guess that 3rd party info is not so trustworthy after all.

      9

      0
      • Baggins Baggins says:

        Wow. The hits on the appraisal blogs keep on coming. Thank you.

        In case you missed it, I had stated once that although I specifically demanded the appraiser whom completed my appraisal for my credit union be paid C&R or better and I specifically defined a number and made the point clear I would pay whatever was required additional costs, the appraiser whom was sent by Street Links did not receive a C&R compensation for the work. Close to it by around a hundred if I recall correctly, but still no cigar. Of course other posters took the opportunity to task and responded that TRID was to blame and we do not actually enjoy the standard protections of free market fee setting. Rightfully so, I concur. Logical fault, although the consumer wants higher quality valuation service for their own financial decision making considerations, because their requested loan amount falls under the current statutory minimum for the deminimus lending amount, the lender is not required or even obligated to provide such service even though the consumer may request it.

        Food for thought. The more you know…

        7

        0
        • They can’t blame TRID for yours Baggs. ALL that is required under TRID is that if any of the affected (quoted) costs are going to vary by a certain amount then they have to get a new disclosure statement signed by the borrower. You were willing to pay extra for a C&R fee so its a reasonable assumption that you’d also have signed a new TRID if necessary in order to do what you wanted to do.

          2

          0
      • Jennie Scott on Facebook Jennie Scott on Facebook says:

        My hybrid was masterfully performed for $65.

        3

        1
        • Baggins Baggins says:

          Others stated base consumer costs near $500 for those. Do you recall your base consumer cost for these non appraisal services?

          3

          0
        • If also performed in the usually cited 15-20 minutes, care to share? (redacted). I keep HEARING they can be done but so far the only ones I’ve seen are the kind to be turned in to state regulators.

          Seriously, we are interested to see IF they can be done in a way that is USPAP compliant; done in the time frame cited (or even double that time frame) for the fees cited. If I’m completely wrong and they CAN be done, please let all know.

          3

          0
          • Jennie Scott on Facebook Jennie Scott on Facebook says:

            We did not have to pay for it. We had to pay for the full appraisal. It is my understanding that they paid for it. I didn’t receive a copy of it until a few months after closing. I did not know they had sent this person to my property or ordered this type of appraisal report. Upon further checking, we went back and looked at the security cameras. The report says the inspection took place on the 1st. The cameras show he came at 6:34 pm on the 2nd. Report was signed on the 3rd.

            I only ever knew of the full appraisal that I requested during the loan process and it was done about a week after this hybrid thing and was $135,000 higher in value. ??

            3

            0
            • Jennie, I’d love to see both. IF the full appraisal is good it could be used to impeach the hybrid. $135,000 error means SOMEONE should lose their license!

              I’m open minded on the need for the second appraisal. You object to value; they agree their report is garbage and ok a real appraisal? Or something like that? So many questions! How does THAT produce quicker or cheaper results for consumers?

              A $135k error wouldn’t even be acceptable variance in million dollar properties.

              2

              0
          • Jennie Scott on Facebook Jennie Scott on Facebook says:

            Michael, I could share it with you, send me your email address. I would prefer not to post it on a public venue. I am in the process of going through it line by line to make my own judgement on this. First one I have ever had a chance to see.

            3

            0
            • mike@mfford.com

              1 (714) 366-9404 west coast… preferably after 10AM. Let me know if it can’t be published at all; or just after redacting; or as is.

              As you go through pay particular attention to the small print boilerplate

              (1) Nothing herein prevents the appraiser from adding such information as they think may be helpful (or words to that effect – meaning YOU are responsible to add whatever is needed to make the thing compliant);

              (2) Appraiser deems sources credible (same with boilerplate reasons for excluding cost approach (and income approach).

              It also shouldn’t be too hard to find outright lies or deception in most of these I’ve seen… though of course we’d never call them that.

              1

              0
  5. chris says:

    Those of us left standing in 10 years are going to make fortunes !!!

    Hurry up old timers and retire !!!

    5

    0
    • John Goldsmith on Facebook John Goldsmith on Facebook says:

      Ya ever heard the story about the old bull and the young bull?

      4

      0
    • Hey!!! I only look old!

      When I retire I may open up a free national hybrid appraisal review service and only charge the fee for filing complaints at state boards against licenses that do these things.

      Alternatively, maybe work with a series of national deep pocket attorneys to sue lender and holders of notes for taking advantage of borrowers (or investors depending on how the wind is blowing that particular day). LOTS of opportunity here. As Joyce said above “WAKE UP PEOPLE!” Lots of unrealized opportunity here.

      6

      0
    • Baggins Baggins says:

      Going to make a fortune in 10 years.

      I recall them telling me that 10 years ago.

      These current regulatory decisions and activities will either destroy the profession all together as we have known it, or they could revitalize and confirm our positions.

      The old wait for them to retire thing was nullified when these older well established appraisers choose to sell all their peers down the river for a quick buck and started churning out hybrids like bpo’s.

      3

      0
      • chris says:

        Who told you that 10 years ago ?? 10 years ago was a money grab that wiped out some, made alot of others jump into review positions. Now I am very happy with my fees, make a lot of money, take a weeks off at a time.

        In a few more years, the money goes up when appraisers retire. Supply and demand. I have the pleasure of being in an area where every house is different from the rest. And i move to semi-rural, but still can’t get urban and suburban. win win win win win.

        East coast appraiser here. I feel bad for you west coast guys.

        4

        0
  6. Baggins Baggins says:

    Hybrids? Is that the one where the bpo churning realtor advocate transitions to a similar appraisal hybrid product, copies photos, and sends his craigslist 10 dollar per inspection runner over? The one where the appraiser then implicitly relies on the integrity of unknown persons without geographic competency whom are not licensed in their state, then dumps the liability risk on their insurer? The one where the amc selects comparables for the appraiser? I’m not letting a person into my house whom is so incompetent they can not find a real job and sources limited employment opportunity from craigslist help wanted ads. To think we had to give fingerprints to stay licensed only a few years back and now it’s o.k. to source felons off craigslist to substitute our services? They can’t be serious. Fresh articles are forthcoming.

    5

    0
  7. chris says:

    Yup !!! I know a realtor who had one, she was scared to death when the lady asked if she had vinyl siding or aluminum… while sitting in her kitchen. They low balled the value huge. Of course, it was for a line of equity !!

    4

    0
  8. Advocate says:

    The hybrid product was not thought of by appraisers, nor is it Fannie Mae’s idea. The AMC looking for better profit is where this initiated. It started with Zaio, which failed and those people were so convinced it was a better way the rebranded as  Clarocity. Well now Clarocity has failed. Morningstar has removed their MOR RV2 credit rating…What this means.. Investors can not utilize Clarocity for any valuations. They are done!  So when the market collapses again, all these products are going to be declared worthless garbage, what appraisers already know. Those that have completed them will also be done. On the positive side it will clean house of the bad seeds.

     

    7

    0
    • ZAIO was predicated on FRAUD to begin with. Many of us TOLD them that in their special presentation sales pitches. IT DID NOT COMPLY WITH USPAP. It misrepresented the process of appraisal. Why would we be surprised that this penny stock (foreign exchange traded ONLY,) corporation would change  for the better today?

      That TAF honored and continues to honor one of their chief hucksters should tell everyone all they need to know about the organizational integrity of TAF itself. Either they have exceptionally poor judgement and are tools to be manipulated by special interests over the needs of taxpayers and the public; or they are willing partners.

      Taxpayers, what’s REALLY frightening is that the hucksters recently made grand claims of having landed huge contracts with agencies of the U.S. Government!

      4

      0
  9. Joyce J. Potts, SRA, AI-RRS says:

    It didn’t start with Zaio, but Zaio certainly tried to take it to a whole new level and miserably failed. The ‘hybrid’ or desktop appraisal has been around for over 25 years. I used to them back when USPAP was just being implemented and prior to all the USPAP changes. I think First Union out of Jacksonville, FL was where I was getting them. As far as their credibility, it’s like anything else. If the market collapses again any and all valuation products and suppliers will be the typical scape goat. Nothing new there either.

    0

    3
  10. Joyce J. Potts, SRA, AI-RRS says:

    They can be the same product. We’re talking semantics here unless you’d like to educate myself and the public as the distinctions.

    While I retain the designations for perceived credibility purposes for my practice, again — NO ONE has been a bigger critic that myself and few other AI designated appraisers. Where were you guys 8-10 years ago when a group of us were trying to AI meeting minutes regarding FNC and AI Ready?

    You’re late to a very bad party. It’s over.

    0

    6
    • chris says:

      God Almighty Joyce !

      I am trying to be polite here. You keep paying them to “keep your credibility”…more like…not having all that money you paid them to be wasted.

      6

      0
    • Milton P says:

      “perceived credibility purposes”. That is the funniest thing I have heard in a very long time.

      The problem is Joyce, you are still at the party drinking the Kool Aid!

      5

      0
      • Baggins Baggins says:

        I’m making sure my EO provider reads these threads and articles.

        Suggest you guys do the same.

        Hybrid appraisal work should require a much higher premium which the cost and risk is not distributed among the larger group of appraisers whom actually still hold to logical ethical principals.

        If they want to do them, fine, do them over there not over here.

        4

        0
  11. Joyce J. Potts, SRA, AI-RRS says:

    Odd, several of us were thinking and saying the same thing about you guys 8-10 years ago when typical appraisers like you told us we were conspiracy theorists.

    Perceived credibility. That’s what it is anymore.

    0

    3
  12. Vincent R Simon on Facebook Vincent R Simon on Facebook says:

    Hybrids, 2055s. The 2055s are accepted with no interior. Hybrids, 1004s. You still have information from the inspection. With all the data available now the outcome should be similar. GLA match, characteristics match and or bracket. So they have been around a while with several big players in lending. Numbers don’t scare away rez appraisers. 5 hybrids a day at approximately 100 each 2500 a week, 10k a month without leaving your home? Lol. Everybody chiming in with your chest out bagging these must realize, they have been here for years. Start showing any stats of appraisers loosing Certifications, License doing hybrids then maybe you have something to say. I haven’t but a very few and you probably have more loosing credentials from doing shady work on the types of reports we all know. These Lenders and AMCs have pretty good lawyers.

    1

    2
    • Advocate says:

      Forget the money aspect. How many times have you looked at pictures in MLS on a purchase and then get to the property and see something entirely different? That is why hybrids are worthless garbage. At least desktops everyone knows the property has not been seen. Big difference in credibility of the inspection and the person performing them. When the appraiser has control, he/ she accepts the liability. When he / she does not the door is opened up to fraud and it may be on the innocent appraiser. Remember USPAP states we must verify all information. What better way to verify it by seeing it for yourself.

      7

      0
      • chris says:

        I had a comp I had to use, the realtor put a beautiful MOUNTAIN view in the MLS photos…. Worth serious Money. It was photo shopped, when I went to see the comp, they had NO view. Think about it, take 15k or more off for view, kill a refinance and ruin someone’s life…. all without ever getting up from your desk !!!

        What we do is so important…. “they” don’t care about 1 deal, they want as many as they can.

        The realtor should be prosecuted for fraud. How many desk appraisals, took REAL money off !!

        4

        0
      • Vincent R Simon on Facebook Vincent R Simon on Facebook says:

        Advocate, show data on cases appraisers lost credentials.

        0

        2
        • Baggins Baggins says:

          Remember the rolling license suspension threads on the appraisers forum? Lengthy indeed. Perhaps appraisers are demonstrating institutional memory, thinking it can not happen again.

          Suspensions and Revocations

          History will repeat itself. All it takes is for investors to start losing money again. Tick tock.

          4

          0
          • Vincent R Simon on Facebook Vincent R Simon on Facebook says:

            Show us no or close it on conversation. Big lenders are using this. AI never has a definitive answer, Fannie accepts. So WTF people want to argue, then take it up with someone who can make this right or wrong… It’s happening, that’s my point, people are doing them, and there is no data to support any revocation of license for doing so……… So show that. Don’t just piss and moan. Like any report show your support ……

            0

            3
            • Baggins Baggins says:

              Your request is not possible to comply with. The reason I posted old suspensions reference is because the getting in trouble and repurchase thing happens after the fact not before. The liability and risk management factor is growing with each hybrid subbed for a more legitimate full appraisal. They’re going to be easy targets, one day.

              2

              0
              • Baggs, he’s not an appraiser according to the ASC National Directory. Merely a provocateur. NO USPAP compliant hybrid has ever been shown in this blog. Never. Only three (2 Clear Val and one old proposed PACE PRO ) non compliant examples have ever been available to show here. They are an online product and there hasn’t been enough opportunity for the bad ones to filter out for peer review (yet) with very few exceptions. For the two above, only Indiana said they don’t have jurisdiction under their appraisal laws… Georgia has not made a determination yet as far as I know. They have verified receipt of the complaint.

                0

                0
        • Advocate says:

          I did not state appraisers lost credentials. I stated to Joyce that saying she does not agree with what AI is doing and has done, and remains, not only a member, but a designated member, she looses credibility. She even went so far to agree and state she only stays for the “perceived credibility purposes”

          4

          0
  13. Joyce J. Potts, SRA, AI-RRS says:

    Nobody forgets the money aspect. And therein lies the age old problem. Follow the money. If desktops and/or hybrids are not USPAP compliant, they soon will be. For that matter, you guys still haven’t identified the enemy, much less formed any kind of coherent ‘coalition’ or organization. The AI and others divided and conquered a long time ago.

    Do some homework on http://revaa.org/

    Best of luck.

    2

    1
    • Baggins Baggins says:

      It is difficult to take this kind of shillery seriously.

      TAVMA. Monkey headquarters.

      REVAA. Monkey new headquarters.

      The length of unsubstantiated illusionary claims these guys make just keeps on getting longer and longer. There is nothing essential regarding their position in the lending industry. They are masters of illusion and even better at defrauding American consumers.

      We know, and could never unlearn what we know now, even if we wanted to. Writing off ethic as having lost the battle is a rather unethical position to take. Shilling that unethical approaches will soon become ethical indicates a lack of understanding what ethic is supposed to be all about in the first place. Amc’s are all hot air, and false claims.

      It’s not over, until it’s over.

      3

      0
    • Lot of truth in this post for all. TAF is as much a part of the problem as AMCs, MISMO and deliberately weak enforcement laws.

      1

      0
  14. VaCAP Board VaCAP Board says:

    Thanks for all the comments about hybrids… We are off topic a bit as the article is actually asking for appraisers participation in tracking the number of days from the contract ratification to appraiser acceptance. VaCAP wants to gather more data so our initial results have credibility.

    Please participate on this study. Thanks.

    3

    0
  15. VaCAP Lol!

    One of the risks in posting any article is that readers will take from it what they (we) want or think is important. We get that you did a survey and want to do more surveys. That’s fine and in the long term battle will help arm us all with factual data. Thank you.

    Selecting hybrids as the perceived lender-vehicle to increase speed was perhaps not a good choice for your article.

    You see, that PRESUMES the whores hustling hybrids are only after speed and lower cost for consumers. One of their favorite LIES. You proved the speed part is a lie. The cost part is proven in the fact that the consumer is still charged nearly full fee $400-$500 for an “appraisal” while the appraiser is only getting $25 to $65!

    Your article pointed us in this direction regardless of your intent. For our part (readers) we already know hybrids are indefensible garbage that disregard every standard ever developed for sound, professional real estate practices. As yet, there are NO demonstrated exceptions to this claim. NONE. Yet their advocates still want to be able to trick their investors into thinking they have a real appraisal.

    So the reason for hybrids is something ulterior not yet discussed. Read MISMO position papers or talking points on both hybrids or the future of fully automated residential AND commercial real estate appraisals.

    So far, NO ONE has yet produced a USPAP compliant hybrid for public peer review. We can only assume the reason is that they DO NOT EXIST! A fact that every investor that ever invested in loans or bundled securities ‘supported’ by so called hybrids, should be discussing with their own attorneys BEFORE they lose their portfolio, or the SECC.

    2

    0
  16. Joyce J. Potts, SRA, AI-RRS says:

    What do you want to bet that for every ‘garbage’ hybrid out there, you can pretty find a equally ‘garbage’ full appraisal. No only in terms of the value, but in terms of USPAP compliance. And that’s the argument in favor of hybrids and/or desktops. You guys can kick, scream and protest all you want, but until there is another ‘voice’ representing appraisers (because all know the AI does not represent appraisers), hybrids and desktops as a ‘norm’ will be inevitable. Getting a room of appraisers to agree on anything is like herding feral cats. They’d rather stand around slinging ad hominem attacks and judging people on designations rather than their character and integrity.

    And that’s why this industry, as we’ve known it, is about to see a radical change, IMO.

    1

    2
    • Joyce now you are deflecting. It’s not a case of equivalence. It’s a case where we have yet to be shown ONE USPAP compliant hybrid.

      If the lending and secondary market side cannot show even ONE USPAP compliant version of these inherently FRAUDULENT products, then why are they being given any credibility at all?

      4

      1
      • chris says:

        100% agreement !!!

        4

        0
      • Joyce J. Potts, SRA, AI-RRS says:

        Cite me one regulatory or civil case where an appraiser got nailed over the lack of USPAP compliancy regarding a ‘hybrid’. I don’t do them — yet — not ruling them out, but rest assured if I do, I will supplement them to insure USPAP compliancy.

        You keep saying they’re fraudulent. How do you know that? Is there a standard form out there that’s being used? If I can write a number on a napkin at a cocktail party and still comply with USPAP, what makes a desktop or a hybrid product not able to comply?

        Are you just reciting what you heard because it fits your pre-determined opinion, or is there support and evidence to your assertions? I’m hearing and listening to the pros and cons. So show me what ya got.

        1

        2
        • Jack Of All Trades says:

          Dying ain’t much of a living, who the hell is going to be around to complete these wastes of $60, yeah they’ll get someone, but how many ? Who the hell wants to be a appraiser anymore ? Who is coming in the answer is nobody, so go ahead and taunt all you want, it’s still a pathway to nowhere

          4

          0
        • Joyce the samples in this blog (ClearCrap article) were sent to Indiana AG and Georgia. Georgia was sent much later than Indiana. Indiana’s Ass’t AG  called me a couple times and I think if I’d submitted the Georgia complaint sooner they might have found differently.

          Their state law did not permit them to prosecute under appraiser regulations. They did note that the injured party still has civil recourse. They DID fully investigate this. It also may have been jurisdictional since the injury was in Georgia and the appraiser was in Indiana and no one knows where the online hybrid was ‘performed’.

          The Georgia case was received by them within the past month according to the acknowledgement I received. What happens next I don’t know.

          It is up to appraisers to submit the complaints. No one else knows what and where the violations are. EACH STATE is going to have different rules on these. Mandatory compliance states will find a basis for complaint. Non mandatory states may or may not.

          The same Heinz-57 Flavors of regulatory interpretation that applies to USPAP, applies to these as well. ANOTHER reason why state enforcement of federal regulations simply does not work.

          Once federal losses can be documented to occur in regulated transactions, we may be able to file Qui Tam actions.

          4

          0
        • Vincent R Simon on Facebook Vincent R Simon on Facebook says:

          They don’t know Jack. Just like to complain. They have been around for years. Show stats….they can’t so it’s the future. Deal with it .

          -1

          2
          • Spoken like a true pro-AMC pro-no-standards huckster. 1. Hybrids as currently discussed have not been around for years or even decades. 2. RESTRICTED appraisals were around for decades.

            2. Show stats? Like the stats from a 1004MC? Stats from FNMA’s CU “Big Data”? Stats from CoreLaMode showing whatever they feel like claiming at a given moment? Stats on how many times AI has actually advocated for all appraiser interests as opposed to the number of times they claim to have done?

            “Stats” the LAST bastion of the deceitful when they want to convince people it really IS rainfall unrelated to that doggy urinating on their leg.

            4

            0
        • Baggins Baggins says:

          Again, recall the rolling appraiser suspension threads. These things happen in arrears, after the bubble pops.

          “Don’t be left holding the bag.” However, hybrid providers have lots and lots more bags than the rest of us.

          Adios. Learn to read our comms. Tick-Tock.

          If you don’t see this coming down the tracks, you’re blind.

          0

          0
    • chris says:

      2 wrongs make a right? You make no sense in anything you are typing Joyce.

      Radical change, only for the 70% or less loan to value jobs. Let’s see FHA doing 97-100% loan to value loans will do those as you say “garbage” hybrids?

      Let’s see if VA does them…. lol…. sometimes I crack myself up….lol….. VA will NEVER do them.

      So we have Conventional left……… let them….who really cares. There is more than enough work for all of us.

      Radical change my rear end…. just another way for them to make more and get and pay an appraiser less….

      3

      0
  17. Joyce J. Potts, SRA, AI-RRS says:

    Can you provide specifics as to exactly what Indiana found non-compliant, yet could not prosecute or refer to their board or other professional regulatory body to ‘protect the consumer’ from these products? When an appraiser submits a complaint over a ‘format’ on what basis are they claiming it violates anything?? Good luck with with whistle blower actions. You’re late to that party as well.

    1

    4
    • No Joyce. I cannot. I reported what they wrote to me. Whether they COULD refer to other departments or not is another matter. I don’t know if they could or not.

      They side stepped further action once they determined they had no jurisdiction from an appraisal regulators standpoint. I got the impression they took a very close look at it. I was very impressed by their handling of the case from what I saw.

      The property owner (who people on this blog ARE in contact with) could opt to do a lot of things. The issue is not over, nor has the complaint filed in Georgia been decided on.

      4

      0
  18. Joyce J. Potts, SRA, AI-RRS says:

    If you can’t provide the details and basis of the ‘rulling’, I suggest you get to the bottom of the devil in the details and know the facts before you continue to generally opine on a topic you’re not thoroughly understanding. Again, as such, my jury is still out on these products. Sometimes, truth is a matter of interpretation in this day and age.

    I think the reason you were ‘impressed’ with their handling was because if fit your personal narrative. Otherwise, what specifically about their handling of the case impressed you?

    1

    6
    • What the hell makes you think I work for you Joyce? Or, for that matter that YOU have any credibility whatsoever on the topic? I suggest YOU look at the indisputable facts that are  known about hybrids and get off the damn fence with respect to your ‘jury’ (or not, as your perception of integrity may dictate).

      I don’t pretend to be an attorney here, nor do I try to play one on TV or for the amusement of others anywhere. Similarly, no state agency is required to explain all their actions to me in sufficient detail to please you. If you want more answers then I suggest you contact the Indiana State Attorney General’s office and ASK THEM! (You should be able to find their address online). The two specific cases referred to them are right here on Appraisers Blogs (ClearVal posts)

      Read up on the PACE PRO product originally pushed by First American (and created using their ACI software). That one was so bad even ASC got involved in preventing its use. NO ONE has come up with anything significantly better.

      Joyce it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to identify products that are dessigned to be highly prone to supporting or even causing misleading appraisals. ALL hybrids do. No exceptions shown so far…anywhere. But, you go right ahead and keep trying to defend the indefensible.

      How would Indiana declining to prosecute a case fit my personal narrative???  I FILED the complaint!

      Better have the doc check your meds again Joyce. Ease off on the Fruit Loops and Countess Dingbat brands.

      6

      0
  19. Joyce J. Potts, SRA, AI-RRS says:

    Typical of someone running around with their hair on fire yet can’t cite the specifics of what they’re upset about. If you filed the complaint, then give the details. Your personal narrative is pretty obvious. And I can’t think of state or federal regulatory agency that doesn’t cite the details on a ruling.

    Sorry for your anger and frustration. It’s unfortunate we can’t have a civil discussion.

    1

    4
    • Baggins Baggins says:

      You’re shilling for lenders. Take a step back and look at this objectively.

      You’re participating in a criminal enterprise defrauding the American public and you have found a way to justify this to yourself out of both self preservation, a long chain of usurpations and abuses, as well as propaganda.

      Here;

      We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

      Say hi to the king for me. I will not be there with you. Ethics are not flexible, neither is freedom and liberty. Neither is the birthright of Americans to be free from the yolk of oppressive lenders and money changers, and to own land.

      What were you saying again? Something about it’s over, they won, just roll with it? Listen to yourself, step back, be objective.

      3

      0
  20. Joyce the details of the complaint were filed when I first wrote about it. Clearly you are either a moron or simply too lazy to read. When the state first wrote and stated that they did not have cause to pursue the investigation or complaint further under their states laws, THAT is what I reported here.

    Clearly you have your own agenda of hijacking posts on this blog for YOUR own purposes. Purposes that have little to do with helping appraisers or even fundamental honesty.

    There are over 74 articles in AB that I have written. They are pretty clear about what I consider to be concerns; and in many instances what either I or AGA or others similarly concerned have suggested as methods to address them.

    Joyce, I’d much prefer to have my hair on fire, than firmly lodged somewhere where the absence of air affects fundamental thought processes.

    While we are on the topic of proof and evidence, you made a lot of empty claims about how much effort you and AI made to solve our problems ten years ago. None were supported by verifiable actions; successes and or losses. Just empty claims.

    3

    0
  21. Joyce J. Potts, SRA, AI-RRS says:

    I’m a moron. How about the regulatory board’s findings or anything on why they elected not to move forward. Your complaint may allege improprieties, however, I’m looking for some kind of reasoning as to why the board did nothing, WITH SPECIFICITY.

    Apparently, despite all your published articles expressing your concerns, the regulators aren’t agreeing with you. Is that a fair assessment, moron mentality notwithstanding? Regarding efforts launched 8-10 years ago, they all failed. So I guess you could say they were empty claims.

    0

    3
    • Baggins Baggins says:

      Joyce, I think you’re confusing regulatory jurisdiction with regulatory compliance.

      Inquiring minds want to know. If you’d read the articles and comments, you’d know the tone of the response letter was one of wanting to help out, but not being in a position to do so. Likely outside of their jurisdiction.

      Riddle me this, riddle me that, who in the hell actually has jurisdiction over inter state hybrid commerce and regulatory compliance enforcement?

      C&R, an empty claim? A regulatory structure which does not sell out consumers best interests in a revolving door system to benefit lenders, where the majority of regulation is self imposed to eliminate competition, an empty claim? Google this; wall street, nobody went to jail.

      The world is watching.

      1

      0
  22. Yes Joyce. Your first declarative sentence appears to be 100% correct.

    2

    0
  23. Joyce J. Potts, SRA, AI-RRS says:

    It never fails that when one runs out of credible arguments, they often turn to personal attacks.

    Your efforts will go no where, but best of luck anyway.

    0

    3
    • Personal attack? I suppose your snipe about me posting something only because it follows a narrative that exists only in your imagination, wasn’t personal? You are a hypocrite. You postulated a non existent set of circumstances and then sought to build an argument around it for no apparent productive purpose aside from some imagined intellectual discourse requirement that I meet YOUR desires to avoid doing your own research. You are an intellectual fraud Joyce. Pure fraud.

      4

      0
  24. Power Bottom Logan says:

    The Appraisal Institute is clearly racist!

    1

    1
    • I’ve never seen or heard a supportable claim for that.

      I’m not their biggest fan but let’s stay honest, ok? AI has many minority or non white designated members and have had for a very long time. It’s a baseless claim…and irresponsible imho.

      This isn’t Twitter and Facebook. It’s a site intended for serious discussion of issues important to appraisers.

      1

      0
      • Baggins Baggins says:

        No, you’re too much of an old timer Mike, he’s making a quipp on a popular modern approach which is, if you’re losing the argument, call them racist. It’s funny because he’s doing it wrong and he knows it. Ha! This was a popular viral meme which is still ongoing today. How to navigate politics for children, everyone who’s opinion I disagree with is; racist, hitler, whatever, fill in the blank. And he’s right, the AI seems to be very one sided lately, apparently not being reasonable and rather being very biased. As we live in a society which fairness for all is no longer optional but rather mandatory, we simply can not believe they’re incompetent. The only thing left is they must be racist. The government and institutions which deal with government would not lie to us, we must trust them implicitly. The news told us so and we believe them.

        1

        0
  25. Baggins Baggins says:

    Question. What happens with hybrids, specifically are they dropped into the FNMA CU system?

    One presumes if they are going to be the new go to item, they’ll be mismo compliant in xml format and there will be a brand new patented FNMA CU approach to analyze and qualify them.

    Anything less would be rather uncivilized. Experience matters.

    0

    0
    • Unknown at this point. Most are being touted as being completed online or ‘in the cloud’ using the promoters proprietary software. How delivery takes place beyond that is an unknown & potential variable. Also unknown is whether they will influence of be influenced by FNMAs CU system or database(s). Like manure anywhere, I’m not as concerned about final ‘format’ various delivery options. I only know I don’t want it dumped on my desk.

      0

      0
  26. Baggins Baggins says:

    She never answered the quintessential question; Who has authority over hybrids.

    And nothing else matters. Because if this was clearly defined, people would be in jail.

    0

    0

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

xml sitemap

Need for Speed? Hybrids are NOT the Answer!

by VaCAP Board time to read: 2 min
101