How Many Fees Are Needed for One Appraisal Order?
After reflecting on 2023, from the position as an appraiser, experiencing the changes in volume of orders, the compensation being offered to the appraiser, the amount of waivers being given so no appraisal was required, and the roll out of desk top appraisals allowed to be performed by NON-licensed appraisers has many of us rethinking the stability and longevity of our cherished industry. I use the word cherished because by and large most full-time knowledgeable appraisers love what they do. The take pride in producing excellent well written and articulate valuations for their Clients. They are timely in their deliveries, and they respond immediately for revisions and corrections, etc.
Being beaten up about a fee increase request, new higher technology fees, or losing out to an order in a ridiculous bidding war and learning the AMC made more money than the appraiser on an order, or even having an order cancelled because someone else offered to take less compensation, are only a few of the issues the appraisal industry is facing. It’s no wonder that an appraiser is left wondering why we are being seemingly targeted on all fronts. Very few groups of professionals are going through what we have endured over the years. We’ve gone from valuation pressures from the lending officers pre-2007 which led to a meltdown, to the post 2007-2008 years where AMC’s became the compliant answer for HVCC and USPAP guidelines. Only to have the AMC’s rule when it comes to charging borrowers exorbitant fees which pay for their leadership partners made up of senior vice presidents, executive vice presidents and all kinds of corporate officials who have little to nothing to do with the day to day running of an AMC. Not to mention some other parasite companies who feed on charging the appraiser another technology fee which is on top of the current software fee they already are using. It begs the questions “how many fees are needed for 1 order”?
In reading the overwhelming number of newsletters, magazines, transition products and services NO ONE has ever taken the time to look at how to make the appraisal portion of the process a better one, with added speed, from a top-level appraiser who is compensated properly and the overall cost of the appraisal. It’s almost a conversation no one wants to have. And especially the senior and executive vice presidents all over the country earning on the backs of appraisers and borrowers. It has gone unchecked far too long!
The Private Asset & Management Group LLC (PAM), has wrestled with this. And in response to what we have experienced, read about, spoken about with lenders and appraisers, we have tried to face this challenge head on. We have launched a new platform we have named PAM Plus. It allows lenders (retail and wholesale) to have a FREE in-house appraisal desk/division, it allows the lender to use their OWN roster of appraisers in every geographic area they lend in, it will significantly lower the cost of the appraisal by 25%-40% on day one, and it comes with absolutely “NO” cost to the lender. And it is compliant in 50 states. We believe this is far and away the most significant change that will work for the betterment of all parties since 2007. This is the future of the appraisal process, and we welcome your feedback, questions and comments.
The article starts off by empathizing with appraisers over how they are being driven out of a cherished profession by greedy AMCs and lenders, and finishes brilliantly with the author stating they have started a company with a “NEW” platform for lenders to use and justifying their wide experience by having been the owner of an AMC. What kind of bullshit is this? I can answer that. Its sales and promotion bullshit.
Kimberly, I appreciate you reading the article that was posted on my behalf. But you are wrong when you say that this is a promotion and sales piece of information. Because I will tell you that the appraisers fee is protected for his/her acceptable amount in his/her geographical market sector. The total fee that an AMC charges vs a significantly lower fee that we charge (but keeping the appraisers fee intact) is the benefit which is to the borrower. We would never suggest that the appraiser make less than they should and we do not even interfere with the appraisers fee. We do not even get involved with the appraisers fee, nor would we.
Thank you for replying David. So, is the appraiser fee C&R (the same as the VA’s fee)? Is that what you’re saying? Lender’s do not care one whip about the fees charged to the borrower. Nor does the Appraisal Foundation or CFPB. And no portal charges? No membership fees? Is your company a 501c3 not-for-profit? How, exactly, do you get paid? What’s the benefit to the lender? Who are you marketing to? I don’t see any transparency here. Please help me understand.
Just another middleman with another junk fee. Go source is another company saying they have access to all these lenders and AMC. They are just trying to take more of our fees. They offer nothing in return.
So a “new” Mercury or Appraisalport? No thanks. I’m starting a revolutionary company that will impact the entire appraisal profession. We’ll be completely different than what you’ve ever seen before. The industry is just so backwards. It’s called “Company to Manage Appraisals,” or CMA for short.
I would need to see as an independant appraiser how “Pam Plus” works, how it will benefit me and how I can get the “retail and wholesale” lenders in my market to buy in. If this process eliminates “bidding” or “proposals”, has a reasonable appraiser charge (profit for me) and no extra fees for the appraiser, I would be interested.
Hi Lamarr, and thank you for reading the article about PAM. I would enjoy having the opportunity to speak with you. You can e-mail me and let me your know your availability or call us. I can cover all your questions and concerns.
Thank-you,
Dave Cedar
dcedar@pamvalue.com
(631) 319-6161
Why don’t you just post the details here so we can all see and discuss. Sure sounds like you are selling “free lunch”.
Very good points and I’m still waiting on the response that I would like to review. Sadly, I wouldn’t hold your breath.
Very good points and I’m still waiting on the response that I would like to review.
Its my understanding that this company charges a flat $99 fee for full appraisals and a flat fee of $50 for 2nd inspections (1004D’s).
Historically, lenders don’t breakdown nor do they care about how the appraisal money gets split (one line item), meaning its my opinion that the appraisal fee to the appraiser will be reduced by $99 and or $50.
Seek the truth.
Hi Bill, you are mistaken. We do not interfere in any way with the appraisers fee. As long as the lender see’s the fee as a typical fee for that particular market sector, the appraiser is paid his/her fee. Our flat fee of $99 is far lower than what an AMC charges on top of the appraisers fee and for the $99 fee we can compete with a lender using an AMC in many ways that are a benefit to the lender and the borrower.
I am reading a boat load of appraisal fee bitching articles lately. Could it because 15 years have passed and appraisers are ready to make a stand against an injustice? NOT A CHANCE! You guys just have more time on your hands to complain because of high interest rates and no work.
Wake me up when you’ve had enough of appraisal management companies. There is a solution to your problem.
Thank God I made my millions and invested well. Sucker pay today for appraisal work from AMC’s. Think outside the box. Divorces are up and valuations are needed. Just saying.
That’s a real confidence booster right there thanks guys.
100% correct. Too much time to complain because no work.
The storefront location is dangerously close to Canada, lol. No sign up link?
No sign up link on the website either
I like it in the old days. I charged my fee and collected my fee at the door. It should be that way today. Why are they collecting our fee? When they started this crap it unnecessarily changed my cash flow. Plus, I did not have to be concerned if I was going to be burned by an AMC. The AMCs or whomever get their fees upfront. Why can’t we? When I work direct with a lender I get my fee upfront and not when they close.
I do not absorb any additional fees whatsoever. If they charge me an additional fee I tack it on to my fee. We should have fought to not allow AMCs or anyone else to collect our fee.
ANS has been sending me emails on a service they offer that will set you up with a certain number of AMCs and will do all of the background work and maintain all of the information the AMCs need from you. Their fee range from $600-$2000 per year depending on what you want them to do.
Has anyone utilized their services before and can give an update on them?
Bottom line my attitude is my fee is my fee take it or leave it. I must say I have some advantages that some of you may not have. I appraise only in rural areas and in my county there are only three appraisers. We do have other appraisers coming into our area that are not geographical competent and I do not assist them if they call me.
All of these AMC’s, now PAM (Paid appraisal management?), have sold the lender’s a bill of goods that was never mandatory, and is still not mandatory. They think they are following an edict set by FNMA or some other higher power. I want the entire fee that is collected by the lender for the “APPRAISAL” – hence the APPRAISER. Title companies, termite companies, land surveyors,, home inspectors – all parties needed in the process, don’t go thru this bulls hit. Everybody sees that fee and thinks it’s a windfall.
This article is BS. Another fee to charge the appraiser?
Like others wrote, it started out just fine. Then it became a sales pitch for yet ANOTHER PLATFORM.
Two things stand out that REALLY made me mad. 1). It states several times NO COST TO THE LENDER. I’m an appraiser…. not a lender…. smh. Another cost to the appraiser? Of course! 2). It hints at the appraiser needing to complete the appraisal report even FASTER? “NO ONE has ever taken the time to look at how to make the appraisal portion of the process a better one, with added speed, from a top-level appraiser who is compensated properly and the overall cost of the appraisal.”
I do not hire a fast attorney. I do not hire a fast accountant. I do not hire a fast mechanic. I hire people THAT DO THE BEST JOB FOR WHAT I CAN PAY.
This is nothing more than an advertisement for more of what appraisers do not want and do not need. Another place to spend more money and produce appraisal reports faster, faster, faster. Just copy the VA model.
SMH
Let us not forget this is the model that would have worked better for the appraiser community this entire time, the quasi amc with up front billing, no variable rake, and set fixed administrative appraisal report processing fees. I don’t mind, sign me up. We’ll see if they can land the lenders or not, that’s on them. I don’t mind a little and consistent share for reliable marketing.
The industry will eventually have to reconcile with the fact that supposed cost savings are not there though, appraisers would likely still be struggling to hang on, even if we were getting paid what the amc is billing the consumers, they’ve suppressed the billable rates for so long. Will be at least some reprise to capture a far greater portion of that fee. Take what you can get, this industry is in free fall so at least someone is doing something new.
Pay me a base $800 appraisal fee (Customary and reasonable VA fee currently pays) and you can charge whatever you want over that.
That’s more ignorance. So you are telling that if they are charging the borrower 1600.00 for the assignment and your happy if you get half? You should leave…
All I want is a customary and reasonable fee. VA is that gold standard in my area (yes, its $800) and you can have a conversation with client and justify your appraisal fees based upon that, if that’s what you do (quoting fees).
But no, I’m not cool with an AMC taking half of my appraisal fee.
And no, I’m not cool with a homeowner or buyer getting hammered for additional fees above the appraisal fee. If you choose to AMC work, what can be done about it?
I’m sick and tired of the low quotes and insanely stupid turn times, and I charge an $800 fee across the board. As appraisers can we control and dictate what the AMC is charging? If they are paying you $800 and they charge the borrower $1,600 do you decline the assignment? I don’t give a shit where you are located, an $800 is pretty good for a standard 1004.
But keep acting morally superior and virtue signal that you wouldn’t accept an $800 fee in this economy.
The only ignorance is coming from you, Chachi.
If they are taking 1600 and I’m only getting 800, no I would not. If I’m getting 800 (which is what I charge and I can only assume you are within the Denver RLC in the PNW) for a standard fee and they are charging the borrower another 100-150, fine. I can live with that. However, if they are charging the borrower 1600 and only given me half, no I won’t, because F*** them, that why.
So you only want to control the following.
1. Your Fee
2. The AMC Fee
3. The Lender Fees to borrowers.
If you get you fee, it’s none of your business what the Lender and AMC charge.
If the Lender is too stupid to know they are getting ripped off AND that they are in turn ripping off their clients AND the borrowers are too stupid to do their research….
Why not let capitalism take care of itself? When all the facts are on the table no informed borrower is going to pay $1,600 when they find the appraiser is being paid $800 as a factual fair price.
I would like to, but not practical. I get it. But if I’m in the position to tell and AMC to kiss off, I will.
The capitalist argument. Like the person who’s putting together a tila violation data set for amc fees stated; Appraisers are operating in a regulated market not a free market. Sort of a juxtaposition of considerations there.
Why should the appraiser care? Duty of care requirements are applicable. The home owner shells out $X amount, which implies a certain measure of performance and professionalism. It will be the appraiser whom is singled out for not providing commensurate service in relation to the total bill charged. The appraiser should care if they are participating in a scheme that defrauds consumer borrowers. Otherwise, they may have to one day answer for their participation.
Additionally, one presumes that borrowers being well informed, would drive the market demand elsewhere. How is that reconciled when all parties involved; the appraiser, the mortgage originator, and the mortgage originators appraisal management company, all worked in coordination to conceal and hide the appraisal services fee breakdown from the borrower?
The appraiser choosing to remain ignorant of the fee distribution does not absolve them from professional negligence claims. That would likely bolster the claims standing and in most peoples normal expectations of professional service expectations be considered as an activity deserving of elevated penalties and fines. Look me in the eye and pretend you don’t know, cover your ears when I talk about the total fee for your services.
https://www.pinkstonlawgroup.com/understanding-negligence/
Duty of care and professional negligence. We’ve been warning appraisers for a very long time now, that so many of the fancy automation tools and clever third party outsourcing options provide very real and tangible avenues to expose the appraiser to professional negligence claims. Whom, in the entire chain of origination, would one suppose is the easiest person to sue? If you guessed the home inspector and/or the appraiser, got that one right.
Keep in mind the department of justice and hud’s fair housing division, was delivered the entire CU database of all appraisals since 2013 to sometime just a year or two ago, and the new appraisals happening since, will also be sent along to these organizations. Client confidentiality just vanished into thin air. Guess what, they’re not looking for uspap violations. The pace of government is very slow, and one ponders if they make time to dive into these issues, what may come.
I’m starting to warm up to Retired Appraisers idea of class action for wire fraud, because that would shift the appropriate amount of accountability to not just the appraisers whom participated in these systems, but also the middle management companies and lenders whom implemented the operational models which defrauded consumers. The free market capitalist arguments may not hold up to discovery and ensuing litigation. Because how could an appraiser not know? How could the appraiser not have cared? Clearly those appraisers flipping volume and posting numbers so far greater than the majority of their appraiser peers, enjoyed substantial financial benefits from participating in the fraud. Then they’ll move on to the other side and look into kickbacks, excess corporate compensation, all of that. The appraiser will go down first.
We warned the insurance companies too, they should have had a special rider and surcharge for amc and hybrid work, since under umbrella policies everyone covers everyone else, yet so very few of the appraisers actually completed amc work or alternative appraisal products. At this point appraisers whom do not work for amc’s, could consider suing the EO insurance providers for charging us for disproportionate risk and refusing to set up proper risk distribution allotment. That’s professional negligence for the insurers too. They’re the ones insuring the appraisal industry, they deal with all the claims, they have the statistics and actuaries. How could they not have known the disproportionate risks posed by the amc industry?
Things are happening. Exciting times.
If it was a free market, I would be charging more and dealing with direct client relation and not the stupid AMC’s. I can’t convince a CEO that going direct is faster and cheaper than the AMC model, when they are wined and dined by the AMC’s. There are several local lenders that use a similarly local AMC, why? Not because they are faster and cheaper, but because they whine and dine with kick-backs from one to the other, lavish office dinners and parties, etc. I still do not get how I can bring about change with the exception of saying no to any work that appears to be hosing the borrower. Just because I post my fees, it’s not done out of a bragging sense, but a sense that other are doing work for cheaper and for what specific reason? Am I doing that much better on my reports and turn times? Possible, but more than likely there are more similarities than I would like to admit. I do feel that I charge for the work consistent with what is produced. I know fully there are appraiser’s who complete more work that I do (which is saying something in my opinion), but are also charging WAY more. They have been luck to find a client that wants the best because it is the best and not just good enough. Those are truly hard to find with 90% of mortgage companies and bank only wanting good enough.
Research keywords; Are kickbacks legal in lending. / (optional add on;) , wine and dine
(top hit)
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/12/2607
Here is a recent one which mentions dinners and events.
https://doeren.com/viewpoint/cfpb-issues-respa-kickback-penalty
Check this one out.
https://www.vivaescrow.com/what-can-be-considered-a-kickback/
Violations. The four words to guard against: “A Thing Of Value”. Cash is a thing of value. A discount is a thing of value. Tickets to the local theater are a thing of value. Here is a general list of violations, considered “a thing of value” that everyone should be aware of. Most of this is aimed at the interrelationship between escrow, title and real estate broker/agents.
Hey don’t a lot of the big amc’s offer title services as well, and a great many other services beyond just ‘appraisal management’? Didn’t quite a few title service companies purchase amc companies?
Let’s examine this; ‘A discount is a thing of value.’
Ethics rule / Management / / An appraiser must disclose that he or she paid a fee or commission, or gave a thing of value in connection with the procurement of an assignment. / Comment: The disclosure must appear in the certification and in any transmittal letter in which conclusions are stated; however, disclosure of the amount paid is not required. In groups or organizations engaged in appraisal practice, intra-company payments to employees for business development do not require disclosure.
Isn’t that awesome. Rules that apply through the entire lending and related communities, mysteriously do not apply to the amc appraiser relationship? Discounts are broadly recognized as providing a thing of value everywhere else, except appraisal? Good thing USPAP only applies to appraisers, not appraisal management companies. (hint hint)
Every day I say to myself; This will be my last day in this lawless industry. Great blogs commentary draws me back. Another order hits, then another, and another. Even though I do not market or even answer the phone anymore. One of these days though…
Okay. No one is going to stop them. CFPB does not care unless it will make a big headline and cost someone hundreds of millions in fines that won’t get inforced or arbitrated for less or dismissed in appeal. I don’t have a smoking gun e-mail anymore, nor dates of phone calls.
Such was a common theme of many of the legal pages regarding the issue.
Lack of manpower to investigate what is often right out in the open, but difficult to prove legally.
Good luck with that. VA appraisals are going down to $450.00.
No they are not going down to 450. I would love to hear where you heard that from, specifically. They will have issues getting appraiser’s to complete work again and have to deal with the crappy appraiser’s they allowed onto their own panel during the pandemic.
Really? Where at?
Site your source.
The Denver RLC has stated they are not lower their fee. They have stated they brought on too many appraiser’s without proper vetting and are having a hard time getting rid of some appraiser’s that can’t seem to put forth a professional effort. There is a literal legal process they have to adhere to in order to remove an appraiser. They would prefer to make it harder on them and force them to quit. It is cheaper and faster.
No kidding, wow. I voluntarily left. I’ve never fielded as many phone calls and emails. Many of them were thanking me for being the only VA appraiser that actually answered the phone and returned all emails. Hounded by the mortgage people whom flaunted the exception to the separation of mortgage production rules which they were entirely familiar with as their majority work came from non VA origination. They relished in such. The attitude of the lending communities which subscribe to the amc model, they no longer have to worry about ethical push back from appraisers. Keenly aware that VA appraisers have nowhere left to turn, so they push them around too.
On to the aspect that people in the lending world were from the same outfits which most appraisers could not access outside of the VA panel, because they had long since subscribed to the amc model. Providing service to these same lending companies whom outside of the VA model, allowed amc’s to destroy the appraisal industry, had no hesitation or ethical concerns what so ever about cutting appraisers out of fair compensation and fair dealing, defrauding consumers with junk fees.
VA appraisers exist some where in between, in the nether, on an island, and the tide is rising. Looking away does not solve the problem. Either the amc industry breaks, or the VA will fold and adopt the model. The fact the VA has to date never folded to the amc industry is a testament of how corrupt the other GSE’s are, and the ‘stake holders’ that influence their policy decisions. TAF, as usual, remains asleep at the wheel, answering to the same stake holders.
So it’s not surprising that the new appraisers whom landed those VA slots, while having worked within the amc industry on the other hand, provided a level of service that contrasted against traditional expectations. They’re getting twice as much, while simultaneously continuing to subscribe to the cost cutting and outsourcing promoted by the amc industry.
Where did the VA think the replacements were going to come from anyways, when the VA was the last safe haven for sustainable work volume and professionalism in lending origination? The VA GSE should have done far more this entire time to not just protect veterans, but also the general public from the amc industry. They could have issued policy advisement or ethics statements why they do not use amc’s. But then that would have highlighted the corruption, so they remained silent instead.
One wonders how many lobbyists and promises the amc industry has sent the VA, the volume of pandering must be truly astounding. It’s right there on the table, waiting to be taken, over half if not more of every appraisal fee for the entire VA apparatus. They consistently push 500k loans a year, sometimes far more. What’s 500k x a $450 appraisal fee rake = 225 million, the first year alone. That’s not even close to how much the amc industry took away from appraisers on a yearly basis, for their injection via fannie, freddie, and hud. They stole futures, destroyed an entire industry. They’re coming for non lending work next. The amc industry is not just going to let all the legal work sit there and not try to touch that too.
People like Sam Bankman and Bernie Sanders really missed the boat. There were entirely legal avenues to setting up pyramid schemes, they could have started an appraisal management company instead of landing in prison if they wanted to defraud everyone and walk away scott free. They’d still be in business today. The money keeps rolling in, consumer appraisal fees go up up up, the appraisers fee never moves, as the appraisal management companies scope of service and influence expands with an increasing pace. Can you still call them appraisal management companies when they provide dozens of other services necessary to mortgage origination as well? Are they even practicing within the authorized scope of their limited amc licensing?
So in the context of this thread; An amc or amc like company whom is claiming to limit their injection to the process, with fixed rate billing, is indeed a welcome action. If the amc industry is not going away, we can take a small victory that at least one of them two decades later has been able to figure out a standard fee for their services. The amc industry knows how much an appraiser should be paid, but can’t quite figure out what they should charge, so they pocket the difference instead. Who’s still buying this?
Granted I’m a newbie, but would it not be more equitable if lenders sent individual orders through a clearing house of sorts that had the option of choosing the AMC that charged the least additional fee for “administering” the appraisal ? This of course without regard to the actual appraisal fee which may vary some by market/type. A last thought, if the AMC is “administering” the appraisal, how about accepting E & O liability, (skin in the game) ? This would tend to create an appreciation for the quality of the work, a benefit to us all.
Lenders typically have signed contracts with AMC with dedicated fee established. The AMC can then dictate how much is dolled out to the appraiser. IF they can find an appraiser to complete the work cheaper and make larger margins, then they will. Good enough is a game.
Those systems are in place and some do use them. Most lenders were scared into thinking if they even looked in the direction of an appraiser they would be fined or worse. AMCs, Realtors, .gov etc. didn’t really do much to dispel that myth.
SumthiinU said it! He said the magic word; Clearinghouse.
Every single appraiser in this country should have read this before, and should also take the time to read this again today. I re read this just the other day. Unbelievable contrast. Everything we’ve been calling for, the problems of this industry, alongside many workable solutions. Some things have changed but some things have remained the same. The IVPI, Independent Valuation Protection Institute, was to be the clearinghouse mentioned. No amc’s would have been necessary. The entire GSE system would have been similar to round robin VA systems today. Think about it. Give this a read. Print. Save. Reference.
Missing the IVPI proposal yet?
https://www.workingre.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/IVPI-Proposalfinal.pdf
Yes, I’m in the Denver RLC.
And if an AMC is charging $50-150 above the appraisal fee then whatever, knock yourself out.
I’ve seen fee disclosures of $350 to the appraiser, $650 AMC fee. Some quick work with the abacus shows the borrower getting pounded $1,000, which is disgusting.
But there are appraisers that will eat that fee without blinking. We are our own worst enemy…
I can not agree with you more. We are our own worst enemy. There is an appraisal couple in a coastal area that is willing to complete work for 350 each because it is more than they ever made being a preacher. They have been informed they are passing up so much money and damaging the appraisal community by working for so cheap. They replied the wouldn’t get any work if they raised their fee that high. All things considered, they got their license during the pandemic when WASDOL did have anyone running the office and filled out their work log with hybrid appraisal work. They didn’t know how to complete an inspection, nor select comparables by themselves due to the use of click forms tell them which ones to use under the mentorship. They still use this method and have the software fill out the report. Someday they git bitten and not be in the industry as a whole, but for now they are here and killing you and I.
You act like you are doing appraisals in the 1970’s, where you actually had to go to the county offices to verify sales, like I did. Pretty sure most of you have never been to the county offices. It used to take up to 12 hours to complete a report, now it’s down to 3-4 hours tops. If you think your VA fee is reasonable, it’s not. Basically, you are screwing the American Veteran who protected you so you could get your ridiculous fees.
That is hilarious. It is a reasonable and customary fee for this area to get a contractor to complete said work. You act like to are superior, but you are not. Charging our Vet $800 and more to complete an assignment is on par with our own government’s panels. You are more than welcome to argue with them. Some VA assignments take FAR MORE then 3-4 hours and would have been charge double if it was convention. Just because it is a VA assignment does not mean it is easy, or the borrower is broke.
When we went to court houses the reports were 6 pages long. The appraiser set the rules. Now they are 30 pages long and practically everyone but the appraiser sets the rules.
You think the appraiser is screwing the Veteran yet the VA sets the fee? That makes no sense.
God bless you. The VA set the fees because of whiner’s like you who complained. Again, God Bless you, hope you make a million.
Sorry dude, but I’m not a VA appraiser. Hope your reports don’t contain as much fiction as your posts. You picked a hell of an appropriate screen name though.
Tom; which one are you referring to, superior, or more superior?? LMAO.
“Tom; which one are you referring to, superior, or more superior?? LMAO.”
Just the plain “”superior appraiser” that was accusing me of being the whiner and complainer that causes the VA to set fees when I’m not even on the panel and have never been involved in the fee process.
LOL, gotcha. I’m on the panel, but rest assured, I have no means to effect what is, or is not charged to the Vet’s. I’m also not aware of how one could impact the fees one way or another. If you ask me, we are providing a service to the Vet that lets them know if the house is actually worth what they are paying. I have helped several vet’s pay less for a house that simply was not worth it. Other liked the information, but want the house way to badly, but understood what they were getting themselves into. The flat fee is beneficial when there are super easy assignment, but a head scratcher when it REALLY complex. They washout in the end.
God Bless you for feel you should donate your time to the VA and Veterans. How many appraisals have you completed in the past year? How many VA? Oh wait, USPAP requires an appraiser to complete the assignment with a reasonable and customary fee. VA is in compliance with USPAP based on the markets. Imagine that.
You do realize that appraisers have the MOST liability for the LEAST amount of money in the entire real estate transaction? Get paid what your worth.
According to the Denver RLC , the VA fee and timeliness guidelines are set by the VA, from Washington DC. So if you have a problem with it, start bitching there. Don’t be pissed at us and accuse roster appraisers for screwing anyone.
And the VA fee is more than reasonable. When I first started in 1998 the fee was $300. Why should we not be allowed to charge more as the cost of living has increased? Did my software, E & O, MLS fees, vehicle maintenance, and general operating costs go down since then? Mine sure didn’t. But maybe you’re independently wealthy….
If you don’t know what your base operating costs are per appraisal, how do you know what to charge to be profitable? If you want to work for $8/hr for the AMCs, then be my guest.
Dude said; ‘three to four hours, tops.’ Talk about detached from reality. Or maybe he lives in the heart of the city and takes elevators to provide appraisal services on perfect square boxes with plentiful comps, mere minutes away from the home office.
Mr Ford posted a far more realistic break down just the other day;
https://appraisersblogs.com/appraisal-management-companies-amcs-violating-tila-and-customary-and-reasonable-fee-clauses/#comment-40067
Let me break this down for you; 1-3 hours MLS research and workfile development. 1-2 hours drive time. 1-2 hours inspection and comps. 6-12 hours desk write up time. Approximate 1-4 hour variable flex time for revisions or other unexpected actions. Tag on the average aggregate time loss for yearly taxes and education, even office cleaning.
Two and three a day appraisers using typing services, outsourcing, comps sharing, click and go pre write. May earn a lot, still doing it wrong. I lose intelligence when reading those reports. It’s no wonder so many people think appraisers deserve what’s coming, these volume flippers make the rest of us look bad. Lenders may just need the number to process and accept a minimum standard, as they offload all the risk and liability down the line. Others expect more. Duty of care arguments and professional negligence arguments will one day be far more applicable than they have been in recent times. Most of us could likewise complete a 3-4 hour appraisal. We chose not to.
That’s funny Eric. I’ve got a fun story. One of my last amc orders, clocked me at $2 an hour, or at least that’s my best estimate. No kidding. Everyone in that office ran an admin review, and they all came up with something new, because nobody was qualified to review and had no clue about complex market factors, a-typical housing, or custom alterations. It was apparently my fault the home owner made all these changes to the property. Every single day, another person touched the report, and as they were on quota systems and required to find something, every single day for weeks I was pushing another revised report. Every worker in the office. Then the agents. Then the manager. The underwriter. I had a twenty page addenda.
At one point they were telling me I was to be the one to demand the home owner remove a mother in law kitchen from the basement in order for the loan to get processed, and (get this) they told me to just tell the guy he can re install the kitchen after he gets the loan. There was a counter offer nobody told me about and it was my fault for not reporting on this.
24 hours, 48 hours, 24 hours, 48 hours. it’s like I’m communicating with a parrot, except I’m the one in the little cage and nobody ever lets me out for a snack.
Working with a qualified appraiser manager and their well trained staff for a reputable lender whom assigns orders directly to the appraiser at consistent fees is a true night and day difference. I’ll never go back.
Baggins,
Thats horrible. If you’ve been doing this racket for long enough you’ll have handfuls of these stories.
I did a VA appraisal some years ago, and the same bank wanted a different appraisal on a different property. I declined due to their conventional fee being low and ridiculous. They went back into the VA appraisal and tore it apart for weeks with frivolous revisions ; “comment on the nearby Indian casino impact of the value for the subject”….We don’t have any in Colorado but you get my point of how petty they were.
The box checking AMC’s that ‘QC’ the appraisal before delivering to client have 2 revisions. A week later it comes back from the client with 5 revisions. Then again 3 days later to address this and change that. Then post funding 2 months later the investor wants you to add 2 comps. its endless. This is among many reasons why a charge what I charge and do what I do.
I’m not going to be a hypocrite, I still do a few appraisals for a very small few select AMC’s. I charge $800 FHA/Conv, and they understand and pay it, or don’t and move on.
There might be a few good amc’s out there. After clearing through something like a hundred of them over several years time, basically the entire TAVMA list at the time, I gave up. I kept trying for a while but never once ran across an amc with a fixed rate billing for their side services, which over time became my top priority, to escape the financial incentive to drive my fee down.
I wrote a piece a few days back in the $3 review thread, about how lenders used to simply hire qualified appraisers for all appraisal review services. Sure the lenders save a few minutes and a few dollars with all the third and fourth party outsourcing, but this causes tremendous operational and efficiency drain on the appraiser. Just so they can write one check instead of two, and save five minutes.
Are you using a pen name? Certainly you’re not about to bust out goat style on an advanced drum set. Or maybe you will…
Agreed. The list is dwindling by the day of AMC’s that will actually pay us C&R fees and value our services. I think some start out that way, but ultimately get sucked in to the bureaucracy and rhythms of the industry. I’m sure greed becomes a component with the long-term prospect of selling off for all the money to likes of Class. Who knows, at this rate I’ll be gassing my lawn mower too.
And you Sir, are an observant one. This is indeed a pen name. Years ago I had a doppleganger style run in Las Vegas who swore I was him. It was even funnier to me because I knew who he was (huge STP fan), so I’ve ran with it over the years. If I bust out anything, it’ll be a solo on a pair of stacked Marshalls, lol.
Cheers brother.
Not going to lie. I looked your name up as well. I assumed you were not the drummer. Would have been cool. ON a side note, an appraiser that is close to me appraised the house of Grohl.
I don’t know where you are appraising out of but there is no way I am able to complete an assignment in 3 to 4 hours and I started in this business when the secretary was typing the reports and had to travel to the photo shop to pick up my pictures then glue them into the report. As far as VA is considered, they are paying a fair price. The fee is based on submissions from appraisers that can be verified. and not some figure they randomly picked. The LGO out of Cleveland is a very well educated appraiser who came from the private sector. He is ALWAYS looking out for the veteran. The same is true of the head of valuation in Washington who is a 3rd generation appraiser. No one is screwing anyone.
If you are spending more than 3 or 4 hours on an appraisal assignment, you are lazy, slow, and pitiful. No wonder you guys only do 1 appraisal a month. You over charge, and you are frigging slow. Good luck.
You got me. I just realized, thanks to your astute observations, I am guilty of all especially pitiful. I’ve been wondering what is wrong all these years and can’t thank you enough.
This guy sounds really trust worthy and responsible. Checks out.
Another highlight how systemic training deficiencies in this industry, brought unethical people to the forefront for promotions, rather than being shuffled away to the back where they belong. I’m sensing an amc employment factor. Only in mortgage lending could someone feel justified saying hard work and attention to detail no longer has value, while insulting people for having those values.
Truth, since you are afraid to use your name and use an alias instead to spew your hatred of the slow lazy, pitiful, overcharging and “frigging slow” (redundant, look it up if you don’t know the word) appraisers out there, you will be ignored. You are the problem, and will never be a part of the solution. I doubt you are even an appraiser. Maybe you work for an AMC or you’re a data collector. Maybe you’re an appointment setter or one of those employees who send out mass emails looking for quotes. Maybe you’re a trainee. Maybe you work at McDonalds. If you don’t now, you will be in the future because your response reflects only your ignorance of the professional practices of an appraiser.