Class Valuation Requests for Proposals
It’s time to grab your popcorn and settle in for another round of AMC shenanigans. Last week, Class Valuation, the esteemed AMC known for their impeccable reputation, sent out an email to appraisers claiming that they do not “bid for the cheapest and fastest appraisal.” Instead, they send out a request for proposal, because apparently, they are now a Fortune 500 company looking for fancy proposals from appraisers. Just imagine the appraisers scrambling to put together PowerPoint presentations and fancy graphs to impress Class Valuation. But hey, at least they clarified that they’re not rejecting your bids, they’re just rejecting your proposals.
But wait, it gets better. Class Valuation also revealed that their staff appraisers complete over 30% of their appraisals. That’s right, they have their own in-house appraisers who are probably getting paid peanuts to churn out appraisals like a factory. Who needs competition and fair pay when you can just monopolize the market? And they have the audacity to call themselves an AMC? Is this what the government had in mind when they forced this AMC nonsense on us?
It’s almost comical how Class Valuation still can’t seem to grasp the concept of assigning an appraisal to one appraiser at a pre-stated fee. But hey, why bother with efficiency when you can just keep playing the game of “who can do it the cheapest and fastest.” Keep up the good work, Classless Valuation. You never fail to disappoint.
Excerpt of Class Valuation email:
- Fannie Mae ‘Census Block Grid’ Adjustment Raises Redlining Concerns - April 23, 2024
- UWM Underwriters Subsidized by Appraisers - April 16, 2024
- AI to Counter Flawed Appraiser Bias Narrative - April 15, 2024
This is a degenerate company, just like Amrock. It is too bad that podcasts like the Appraiser Coach defend and promote these companies while bashing independent appraisers in the process.
I have to disagree about Amrock. I have set fees, no bidding, never a value issue and absolutely zero influence. I am paid every week and treated fairly and respected as a independent contractor.
Every “bid” I place for Class gets ignored 🙂
Each business person has every right to set their fee to whatever works for them. Each business expenses are different. But one thing for dang sure I am not selling my profession, expertise, knowledge and time for a cheap price.
My fees with all of the people who engage me are based on my scope of work and not a set fee. I often will not respond to a ridiculous fee that they say they will pay . How can you have a set fee before you know what is the scope of work? They are not proposals they are asking for a fee bid. When they decline my fee my attitude is next!
There are base fees because most assignments “fit “ with in the scope of work/time to complete range. If it is more complex, the feed is more. Simple.
Fully agree with you on this. I have been Amrick panel for ten years and never got a single assignment. Always a bud and low fees.
lol the appraiser coach is a true footage stooge why does anyone listen to Blaine? Lmfao
Can Appraiser Blogs provide us with a template letter so that we can write our congressman and Governor about this corruption and blatant disregard for the public trust?
Are any appraisers dumb enough to drink that Kool Aid they are serving? What is being the requested from the appraiser is exactly the same thing despite what ‘classed-up’ term they choose to call it. They want to know our fee and turn-time and it is in their best interest to choose the lowest. They can call that BID a proposal all day. It doesn’t change the fact that the ‘proposal’ IS still a bid.
Sadly we know all too well, many appraisers are on their panel and do complete work form them. Also, how many appraisers failed to not only read, but comprehend, the agreement that must be signed to work for them? Wake up appraisers, there are so many better options to obtain work. After all, Class(less) did not earn their nickname for no good reason.
Agree. The two hour window gets them the competition between the appraisers….
This bull $41? !!!
Go around Dodd Frank but continue to lie to your lender clients that you are an objective source for appraisers!
Lies
Lies
And more lies
But don’t forget EVERYBODY needs 24 hour turnarounds
So they bid out 70% of the time… based on their math. 30% of the time their in house guy does it, and the other 30% are sent directly to the people who do them for quickest and cheapest (to get that 60% number they mention. So, when their staff doesn’t steal the work from INDEPENDENT appraisers they are asking for “proposals” 70% of the time. That’s shameful. We really need some AMC whistleblowers to shed light on what actually goes on at these companies. They’re killing the industry.
Agreed. Those people posting employee reviews online about these companies are real, everyday working people. If anyone wanted to get in touch with them for said whistleblower interviews, I’d bet they’d do so willingly for free. Amc’s churns through disposable entry level workers even faster than they turn through appraisers. I know at several direct lender outfits, several workers whom had previously worked for amc companies. They were thrilled to work under different terms and deal with appraisers whom thanked them, instead of them having to push appraisers around. There is no excuse to go back to the amc industry model.
Say John,
Are you still charging the same fee you charged 15 years ago? LOL
I am paid very well, thank you for your concern.
They seek to counter declining volume with higher proportions of staff appraiser fulfillment and various marketing blitzes. They’re hosting seminars and advice campaigns at various MLS organizations as well.
Here is the email in case you were not lucky enough to have checked your spam folder last week. Talk to me about misleading statistical data.
https://mailchi.mp/classvaluation/appraisers-2023-year-in-review
LOL……………………………..
“Class Valuation also revealed that their staff appraisers complete over 30% of their appraisals.”
I had a realtor send me an appraisal completed by a ‘Class staff Appraiser” in December.
This appraiser traveled from a city 45 minutes away, did not have local MLS access, and turned out a document I wouldn’t put in a cat box. Horrible.
The disclosed fee to the appraiser was $247.57. That is a real fee for a full FHA 1004.
Class is class-less proving they are scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Heuristic, I had a very similar appraisal situation on a home about 8 miles from my office. I never received a request for the appraisal assignment, but I knew the listing agent involved in the purchase. She was upset about the appraisal comps used and value conclusion ($2.1 million). She emailed me the appraisal, even though I told her I don’t do AMC or lender appraisal work. She wanted my personal opinion of the appraisal report. Yup, the appraiser drove 40 miles, from different county to do the appraisal and the fee was $300. The appraiser ignored 2 good sales in the area that MAY have resulted in a different value conclusion. Interesting, though, the report certainly presented a lot of “appraisal fluff” fancy maps, market graphs, boiler plated statements, that probably looked impressive to non-appraisers. But the report lack a lot of clear appraisal reasoning. I heard months later that the parties ordered another appraisal Class.
Geographical competence is not limited to some arbitrary set distance. People whom live in locations for long periods of time often get around and have the ability to know the entire region. Maybe in high density areas this seems like a far distance. In semi rural situations, 40 miles is considered to be not that far away. Full MLS access is the most important consideration. More MLS groups have engaged in active data sharing, many now cover most of the populated areas in the entire state for one single subscription.
Where do they come up with such fee numbers? $247.57? That is not reflective of intelligent design. Are the appraisers down to cutting pennies to trick the automated amc systems to give them the order first? That is literally how the ‘automatic’ systems are coded with many of the amc’s. Lowest stated fee gets the order first, an automated process. Mercury, AP, Scope, Regorra, they have all coded in similar user options.
This creates a sort of lethargy and inadequate operational skill set for the appraisers whom get the most orders. They only take the simple work and remain poorly equipped to increase their skills or develop more complex developmental methods through their entire careers. Their trainees are specialists in outsourcing and logistics, not complex valuation theory. They’re too busy outsourcing and automating their own work flow. Amc’s foster incompetence among their ‘preferred appraiser vendors’ due to this imbalanced unfair assignment model.
Missing the IVPI proposal yet?
https://www.workingre.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/IVPI-Proposalfinal.pdf
The 247.57 is likely the total fee less a “portal” or Electronic Transfer fee which is typically a percentage. Some companies “charge” your credit card, some retain it out of your fee that they pay. I had a $900 fee through mercury that the transaction fee was $16.50 and that was charged to my CC, but if it had been a different client they would have sent me a check for $883.50.
The Mercury system, like others similar, does not provide for a fair comparison. The appraiser still bills their full stated fee. The appraiser then is able to write off the Mercury order handling fee as a valid business expense.
Mercury charges a relatively minimal fee to facilitate the secure transmission and recording of the communications related to a specific appraisal request. Mercury systems never is able to keep more of the appraisers fee, than their upfront stated charge, regardless of what the borrower was charged for appraisal services.
The amc keeps the difference between the consumer charge for the appraisal services, and the amc’s actual payment to the appraiser for the said appraisal services. This variable fee rake is not disclosed to consumers, lenders, or appraisers.
How did the appraisers ‘portal fees’, which the appraiser has no choice to pay or they will not be able to access the order, suddenly become the write off expense of the amc company, rather than the appraisers? Why is that portal fee subtracted from the appraisers accounts payable, rather than being upfront billing, similar to the Mercury system? Why is the amc company, whom supposedly provides all these efficiencies and cost savings, billing the appraiser for something supposedly standardized to the process?
$247 is slightly over what I was billing in 1985.
LOL.
I “propose” this was the best humor I’ve heard today.
Just a couple more years of all this nonsense.
Please tell me the difference between a bid and proposal. Here is Wikipedia’s version: In procurement of goods or services, the bid and proposal (B&P) are a firm’s plan (proposal) and proposed cost (bid) for fulfilling the conditions outlined in a request for proposal or other information gathering or supplier contact activity.” They are synonymous. This crap AMC wants to know what charge and turn time for “X” assignment that is to be completed on a FNMA copy written form. So the plan is already established so that leave us with a bid. Class Valuation is the worst AMC out there for this ALL BID format. They are looking for the fastest and cheapest. If they were always looking for the best appraiser (I’m not saying that I’m the best in my area) however I know that I good and I know some of the best. They, nor I do any work with Class Valuation. None. So that tells me they are looking for the bottom feeders that do “good enough” work. Work that is just good enough to be pushed through the CU and does not push the bounds in anyway. They are no very concerned with the revisions and corrections that are requested because they build that extra time in with their deadlines to the lender. They flat out suck are are the very reason why AMC’s as a whole should be ended and nothing more than junk fee magnets.
Bid is defined as …..offer (a certain price) for something, especially at an auction.
Proposal is defined as …a plan or suggestion, especially a formal or written one, put forward for consideration or discussion by others.
lol……………
Still the same thing because they have defined the proposal with the scope of work being on a 1004, 1073, 1025, etc.
The key is that the AMCs control the entire appraisal process. Appraisers either comply or get NO work. Closest thing to professional slavery. When the appraiser’s client controls the entire appraisal process and scope terms, independence and impartiality goes out the window. There is no other way to paint to this pig.
A lot of great comments, even the one from John! LOL There is more than enough evidence to substantiate a desperate attempt by AMC’s to stay in business by running an auction house with only price as their business model. Rest assured, by the end of the year they will discover their business is obsolete, they will go out of business or merge with other failing AMCs. Have you noticed the volume of direct order through Appraisalport (a direct order clearing house). Lenders will again be our clients and AMCs a thing of the past.
They don’t ask for bids? I only had to search for about 8 seconds… I rarely ever win the ‘bid.’
Another way they get around the F/Dodd bs is to have a giant pool of appraisers on their panel to claim they are offering it to a giant pool and getting millions of bids (i mean proposals) back and just choosing the best option (not defined for whom the best option is). All the biggies do this-add as many appraisers as possible to their panel to show FD compliance then never not once ever using them.
These are all great comments and I can personally tell you that I was a Staff Appraiser for Amrock in 2 different states on the East Coast over a period of 4 years until I was offered a buyout due to a reduction in 8000 employees when the market changed. I then “picked up” the same position at Class and lasted all of 35 days! Their fees were embarrassing and their LOE’s were inaccurate and required numerous revisions even though I write a comprehensive and fully defensible report.
I now do work for Amrock as an Independent on their Partner Express plan which automatically assigns me work in my coverage areas. Their fees are fair, they pay promptly, NEVER a value issue (in 4+ years of work) and they are pleasant to work with….FWIW
From one amc to another? This is your position? Stop talking about fair fees and state actual numbers. So that appraisers whom do not work for appraisal management companies can educate you on how many hundreds of dollars less per order you were compensated. Never a value issue? That says a lot. Must be a sort of magicians trick. You coincidentally, because of the amc engagement, never have issues with unreliable sales agency and their price conclusions? Curious…
There contract/agreement an Appraiser has to sign is outrageous. Basically is says if you are sued because of your report (think) Bias complaint and the complainant drags Class Val into you agree to pay all their legal defense fees also. Something to that effect. We know if its a Big box Lender, they roll over quickly by cutting a check to the complainant! You have to read it to understand how bad it is. Another thought. Eventually Something is going to go really wrong with a pDR Collector. FNMA has stated that Lenders and indirectly their AMC Leeches are responsible for training of PDR . Well Under fastest n Cheapest for PDR Dudes turnover will be very high. Also you can imagine all the things that can happen with a PDR Dude. Grief I am so glad I decided to retire in 2023. Best of the luck to all of you who are still working in our Industry. May God Help you.
I’m still struggling with what is a fair fee. If I had to guess it is about half of what they were 2022 – 2021. Anybody else want chime in on this characterization now twice regarding “fair”? The offer fees definately are similar to 10 years ago – LOL!
Fair Fee =
what you believe you are worth per hour
plus
what your client thinks you are worth per hour
divided by 2
🙂
but seriously. How much does the local plumber, electrician, car mechanic get paid by the hour? These are all professional services performed in your area for things that may or may not be as valuable as the home you are appraising. my local auto shop charges $150/hr labor, if I go to a dealer I am looking at $225/hr plus. plumber/electrician that is experienced is going to run you $100/hr + around me. So I take what local professionals are charging by the hour, calculate how long it will take me to complete an assignment and voila, I have my fee. And that is why I only did 50 reports last year, because everyone else around me thinks they are worth far less/hour and get the jobs. Won’t it be hilarious when the TAF comes down with their ruling on WA HB 1110 and appraisers in WA find out they have not only been doing appraisals since June 23, 2023 that their E&O won’t cover because it exceeds their licensure…… they have been doing them for less than a starbucks barista makes per hour….. whooopppss did I let that little tidbit of info slip prematurely….
Just because the zoning allies for Disney mean the permit would get issued. If there was a permit on file for said multi-family unit, then I agree with you. That being said there a single one that I have done where there is a permit. None of the counties I worked with have stated they would go on the record that anything could get with out the permit application process. They wouldn’t be able to determine if the infrastructure could support such builds. Appraisers and county building and plant can not predict the future, just because the law allows it does not make it physically possible. I don’t believe TAF is going to do a single thing, nor the state boards, etc. a nothing burger, just like WASDOL said they would go after appraisers completing the hybrid assignments because they can’t verify the information first hand – they did nothing. They will do nothing.
Stay tuned…. 🙂
One piece of data that may be helpful, is sourced from the only major avenue of GSE government backed mortgage lending, which does not allow amc’s to be part of the origination process, and therefore does not affect appraisers fees. To answer the above question, simply compare your amc fee to that of the VA panel.
https://www.benefits.va.gov/HOMELOANS/appraiser_fee_schedule.asp
Oh my, up even higher than just a few months ago. That’s what nearly every appraisal fee in this country would be right now, except for the continued support of the amc industry by appraisers whom continue to accept those orders. In the end, the appraisers question of fee relevancy is irrelevant. Because by way of accepting amc discounted orders, that appraiser supported an alternative market, where compensation was less.
The fun part is knowing that the same lenders whom distribute through amc’s and take kickbacks on appraisal fee raking, also distribute through the same VA system and know very well how much they are shorting appraisers when they force them through the amc process. Amc’s; the long arm of predatory lending. Can the workers of this industry ever graduate from the basics of self employment economics?
It won’t stick.
Todd, what an intriguing reference. On WA HB 1110. That’s a long read, but one can skim through most of the definitions. I cleared through that with skimming in about five minutes.
https://app.leg.wa.gov/billsummary?BillNumber=1110&Initiative=false&Year=2023
Local municipalities and local residents should be in control of how their neighborhoods are developed, not central planners.
Local appraisers will struggle to adapt and conform. Amc’s and lenders will not adjust well. Most of the people we would explain this to have been laid off in the past few years anyways. Attrition continues throughout the entire industry from appraisal to origination and supportive services. Hundreds of thousands and possibly more than a million people have lost their jobs, been furloughed or given severance packages over the past 2+ years.
A popular Colorado journalist wrote an article related to these proposals.
Caldera. Protecting the public with stack and pack housing, placing first time buyers in front of trial lawyers. Which is where the pressure to increase ‘middle housing’ comes from, the red tape which stops otherwise traditional development and city expansion. If you can’t build out, there is no other choice but to build up.
Jon Caldara; Yet more central planning won’t make housing affordable.
https://pagetwo.completecolorado.com/2023/04/26/caldara-central-planning-housing-affordable/
What’s your take on how that higher density housing bill will change the nature of appraisal services? You should write an entire article on that subject.
They’re coming for your gas powered lawn mower next.
https://pagetwo.completecolorado.com/2023/07/19/caldara-polis-secret-police-come-for-your-gas-powered-lawn-mower/
******I edited this 3 times cuz I kept finding gaps due to trying to keep it “brief” … unsuccessfully, I will make no more edits after this. ****
This is not the thread to get into it, but suffice it to say that I was the one that sounded the alarm on this bill back in May 2023, and wrote several pieces for the Appraisers’ Coalition of WA newsletter. There are a handful of others, Richard Hagar being one, that also saw the catastrophic impacts to the residential appraisal profession in WA as a result of this bill. The short of it is simply this, based on how the WA law is written as to what is an “appraisal” and what a Cert Res is allowed to appraiser, it is my contention that a property zoned for “at least 6 units” cannot legally be appraised by a Cert Res appraiser because the H&BU analysis as though vacant requires one prove that 5+ units is not the H&BU and to do that one must perform “commercial valuation/analysis” which is not allowed by state law. Taking that one step further, USPAP requires that in the H&BU analysis consider both current and any reasonably expected land use change in the future. Bill was signed into law June 23, 2023 (+/-) and the relevant zoning changes will have to be made in the 4 counties that included Seattle, Tacoma, & Olympia by July 2025. That means, if you are a strict-interpretationist as I am, performing an appraisal today in these cities on a property that will have its zoning change to “at least six units” and can could physically accommodate more than 4 units as if vacant would exceed the licensure qualifications of a Certified Residential Appraiser. Let me be very clear…. I am NOT saying that a CRA can’t do it, just the opposite, I wholeheartedly believe if one has the education and experience, any appraiser can perform a H&BU analysis to conclude 1-4 units is the H&BU so that the report can be completed by the CRA. That is not the question or concern, it is how the law is worded that precludes the CRA from being “qualified”. BTW – Everything I predicted would happen if the bill was implemented happened when Spokane changed their zoning density to “unlimited” on Nov 20th. Three weeks later, with pressure from ACOW, local lenders and mortgage brokers and real estate agents, the city council had an emergency meeting and revised the limit down to 4 units for the two lowest zoning classifications but with the expectation that the situation would be resolved, and they would be able to go back above 4 units. The situation is such a hot topic that the TAF had a special meeting last week to discuss HB 1110 specifically as THE example of what upzoning may/will look like in the future and how the appraisal industry should or needs to respond and/or adapt to this complete reversal in land use planning. But wait there is more. HB 1110 by its own definition eliminates 1du/lot, which makes every residential lot in every city that exceeds 25,000 in population a “multi-family lot”. I now introduce you to HB 1998 which mandates that a “co-housing structure” be allowed to be developed on any lot zoned multi-family…… A co-housing unit in this bill is defined as a 1 kitchen, a community area and individual lockable rooms that count as no more than 0.25 towards the zoning density limits. Head spinning yet?? A property owner with a SFR wants to make some extra cash and lives in a city of 30k. Per HB110 the first 2 dwelling units don’t have to be low-income housing, so property owner puts a Co-housing structure on the property along with the SFR…. Per lending guidelines and appraisal guidelines the property is now a 5-unit property. How does that impact your H&BU analysis of the next-door neighbor who just wants a residential HELOC???? Oh, and HB 1337 which was signed into law with HB 1110 says that the property can also have an ADU that cannot be counted against the density calculation so add another unit and make it 6 on that once peaceful SFR street…. OHHHH and did I mention there is no offstreet parking required for a cohousing unit or the ADU???? You want nightmares???? Chapter 3 in the Escape series is going to be live streamed as “Escape from Seattle”. Or maybe you just delete this and start another thread with it.
BTW – to be abundantly clear. My comments above and in this thread are my own and are not to be considered a position statement or necessarily reflect the views of ACOW or any other organization I am affiliated with.
PS- If I am correct…. every E&O insurance company I have spoken to has said that there is a clause within their binder that states in some form or fashion that the policy is null/void if it is shown the appraisal done exceeded the license qualifications of the appraiser performing the appraisal. I honestly and truly more than any time in my life hope that I am wrong, because if I am not, then every Cert Res appraiser performing appraisals on these impacted properties since HB 1110 was signed will have done so without E&O coverage if a claim were to be filed.
Interesting. Government bureaucrats. Sort of like Denver, but worse. Denver kept a somewhat clear distinction between commercial and residential, increased density allowances, most builders scraped, rebuilt higher density with smaller split up parcels, or took a commons condo approach. One building per one parcel, even if attached, limited ADU allowance only where allowable via specific zoning code. Those are the rules.
Trying to force local municipalities to allow higher density, or even require additional buildings be low income accessible. Local residents will lose control, developers will sweep in among the confusion, acquire opportunistically, encroach on the hold outs who will eventually fold, and just like that; disproportionately high rental volume and declining home ownership.
Encroachment takes many forms and comprehensive city planning such as careful zone controls is really important. If they need more housing units, they simply have to allow the denser city area zoning footprint to expand, preferably only in aging out areas in need of redevelopment. The free market and developers take care of the rest.
TAF is not the local authority, they have no jurisdiction or enforcement powers, anywhere, outside of paper licensing for individuals. Your local regulatory guidance for real estate, appraiser, and broker practices is instantly out moded and needs completely reformed. This is why some states require an analysis on impacts on state budgets and estimates of man hours spent, in order to more comprehensively consider legislative proposals.
Check this out. Denver zoning code. When one researches individual lots you also get these local plat maps with color coded zoning, where block by block, there can be different code. I don’t see a ‘co housing’ zone in there, lol.
https://www.denvergov.org/Government/Agencies-Departments-Offices/Agencies-Departments-Offices-Directory/Community-Planning-and-Development/Denver-Zoning-Code
https://www.denvergov.org/files/assets/public/v/1/community-planning-and-development/documents/zoning/denver-zoning-code/interpretations-determinations-clarifications/cidu.pdf
CIDU Complete Independent Dwelling Unit. I guess we do have co housing allowances after all. They are limited to only certain zoning areas though.
One has to invest substantial time to navigate the zoning code complexities.
In regards to your statement about TAF. I agree they have no say over what local or even states do regarding land use and zoning. However, if the TAF concludes that performing an appraisal on a property that allows for more than 4 dwelling units exceeds the qualifications of a Cert Res appraiser, then state appraisal review entities will use that benchmark to determine if an appraiser has exceeded their abilities to appraise under their licensure, and if it is determined that the appraiser did exceed their licensure then E&O insurance will not cover it.
Then we’re back to Jeremy Bagott’s articles if the specific state in question, has properly adopted the updated standards for that 2 year cycle, which I think nearly most have not. TAF has been pushing unregulated ethics book updates and alterations for decades, acting like a government to itself. Where as other industries simply issue a code for their industry, the code (rules guidelines) goes through appropriate state administrative and notice process, subject to public scrutiny and response writing, may be needed to be voted in, and only then; is a legitimate enforceable standard.
Under those arguments, TAF simply updating the uspap book does not cover an appraiser. Because the pertinent question for the state authority which may pursue any appraiser, or those pursuing appraisers with their lawsuits is simple; Which uspap book has this state entered into their own systems as the enforceable code? Don’t count on the latest 2 year cycle being the code which the appraiser is held to account in a court of law. Maybe for the board, despite their failure to enforce administrative procedures acts. Not for independent attornies whom are aware of this problem.
There are important legal concepts regarding due process here. Also highlighting how TAF’s supposed power is a paper tiger. How they continue to price gouge a captive audience, operate above and outside the law every else has to abide, behave like a government to themselves, and are clearly outside of their scope of authority on many matters. Bagott writes a lot about these concepts, encourage everyone to back read.
https://nitter.1d4.us/jbagott
https://mailchi.mp/9a9fc75a5e34/texas-judge-to-rule-on-rolling-delegation-of-uspap-9091366
administrative procedure code, rolling incorporation by reference, etc, etc.
Most would probably not entertain some magical exception to newly incorporated state rules like you mentioned that bill was all about. Appraisers whom take that route may be subjected to myriads of legal challenges by those whom are trying to roll the rules back. Other guidelines for appraisers may be included in city, county, state, or federal law, which would supersede uspap. There is no jurisdictional exception for these non profits and private entities to be able to force appraisers to defy existing law or tradition. That’s why I don’t use ANSI, because it’s not code in my state, and why I do not vainly believe that the only rule or ‘law’ I must be aware of is the uspap book. Wherever I operate, I have read city, county, state, various municipal codes relevant to the task, etc.
If TAF does carve out some magical exception to the existing traditions and rules, this could be seen as justification for more states to follow suit in this apparently incompetently conceived experiment, where central planners supersede the will of many voters and violate the rights of many others whom do not agree with these concepts of changing land use and development allowances. So be careful what you wish for regarding any talk of TAF somehow providing meaningful arbitration on the matter.
In counties that I service, the counties have gone on record to state they will not know if the parcel and surrounding infrastructure could or would support such a build until and only AFTER the application for a permit has been completed. If there is a permit being applied for, I could agree there would be an issued. If there is no permit applied for, nor issued, the appraiser would be making a lot of assumption that they can’t complete said work. We have to complete the assignments based on the known facts as of the effective date of the assignment and not a date in the future. Therefore, the HUB would be to build the house because it known that is infrastructure and support it, there is a permit to build the SFR, there is no intent to subdivide, etc as of the effective date of the assignment. So, I stand comfortable with where I’m at.
Baggins & SP,
Have you seen the DOL/DOC release today regarding HB1110 ????
https://deptofcommerce.app.box.com/s/t23totbz5th5e723ls6f7y3p8hub63t7
FAQs 4&5 are the relevant ones and contrary to what you might think, I am more than a little surprised by them.
That was a fun read, thanks.
HOAs may not, after July23, 2023, create governing documents and declarations that effectively prohibit the construction, development, oruse of additional housing units as required in HB 1110 (middle housing) and HB 1337 (accessory dwelling units).
What upstanding law makers. They say HOA rules shall not be effected, so if an hoa says no more than one unit, that rule stands. Then they turn around and say they can never issue new governing documents with that language, effectively prohibiting all new development from taking a safe haven from higher density housing, and also freezing all existing hoa rules in time for literally ever. The few that are able to hold out will be arguing decades from now about antiquated provisions or some lacking hoa rule, and it will be impossible for them to issue updated by laws, otherwise they’ll lose the no higher density clause. Insane people in government, they have no respect for the people in their communities or their way of lives.
An ‘impact fee’ for ‘longer automobile trips’. Gee, try to get away from the crowds, you get taxed for that too. The new progressivism is redefining taxes as fees, so they stack them on there without even needing to ask, nor require a vote. One presumes the fees are substantial, for an appraiser to be asking about them in relation to home value. Liberalism, find a cure.
#4  are as expected. They’ve jumped the ship now, off the farm, flew the coop. How come nobody consulted with the banksters before implementing this? It’s all relevant, one could theoretically still check h and b use for a single unit in an hoa complex, or even a single unit outside of an hoa complex. Simply because those units comparatively will absolutely skyrocket in pricing compared to already developed multiple unit properties. There is going to be a lot of new security fencing and innovative parking solutions. High density housing is the nightmare that never ever ends. Try not to trip over the ebikes on your walk to work.
Take what you would want to get paid for your time to do a cookie cutter tract home next door to your office.
For every hour or portion you spend in your car charge your hourly rate.
Both directions.
How much hour/portion do you spend on comp pics for that job? add it.
Then add fees for PITA orders like MH or 1025 or review or condo or 3,000′ 1 bedroom geodesic log home on 100 acres oceanfront with a private beach…
ie;
base fee is $525 for next door.
you drive 30 minutes each way and your hourly rate is $100/hr =$625
and then its a MH =$775
and then its on acres =$875-975…
then its ERC =$1075-1275
then its a review.. wow-jeez so now i gotta do my own work =$1275+plus re-do the other guys work =$1275 but discount it a little bit since its only 1 inspection so maybe ~$2200? maybe…
math
Its not just for kids.
Yea and that all leads back to the carpet baggers out here who will sell their mothers soul for $100 bucks. If it wasn’t so true it would be funny. Actually, what’s funny is they are so dumb they can’t see they are destroying their own livelihood by dancing to their tune. Hey as forest Gump said, “Stupid is as stupid does”.
FINALLY…you guys are beginning to open up about fees! A topic that deserves an entire article. Did I say article…i should have said website. Obviously I have no respect for regulations pertaining to forcing a muzzle onto appraisers over fee discussions. If appraiser extortion is legal then so is organizing over fee setting. Sorry U.S. government but you can’t have it both ways.
If anyone is interested I will lease a domain name to you free of charge so you can do precisely that…organize and discuss fees in a private setting. I am willing to take responsibility for it since I am unlicensed. The domain is BetterFees.com Access can be limited and membership can be by invitation only. A nice way of sticking it to those appraisal management companies without boycotting.
I understand what you are saying about the Govt should not be able to restrict discussion about fees, but fees are completely dependent on market. I live 20 25 miles from downtown Seattle, but because I am across a body of water in a semi-rural area, the amount of “time” it takes me to just take my comp pics is way longer than your typical tract appraiser in the Seattle MSA. Add the lack of homogeneity and it takes me at least half as long on the simplest of appraisals to complete an assignment as it would for someone just a short distance from me. So, I have no issue with talking fees, but they should be based on hourly rates, not gross billing for each report. I target $100/hr in my quotes for lender work, $150/hr for litigation (not including court testimony or deposition time) because that is what other professionals charge for their services.
Hey Dave, What is a fair fee? $415 for a non-complex property under 1200sf w/3 comps and no blowback. Then that’s my opinion…certainly not 1/2 of what they were in ‘2022-2021″ that’s a little melodramatic
Todd, thanks so much for your candid remarks. So to all my skeptics, If Todd charged $1000/appraisal – that’s $50,000 – FAR LESS than the plumber, the electrician and the sheet rock man. Thanks for that Todd – the rest of you please stop making excuses for Unfair low fees – you are part of the problem. In the spirit of sharing in 2022 I did about three times that for total gross income in excess of $250,000.
I far exceeded that in 2019-2022. I have maintained my 800 fee, but have very few clients because of it. Several had jumped ship from third party assigners to Cl-ass and I don’t do work for 650 and will under. There is a husband and wife tan that undercut my businesses in Pacific county in WA doing work at 350. They are too dumb to see the errors of there ways. They just know they are making more than they did when the work in ministry and that is ALL they care about.
Full disclosure and #s
2021 = 228 reports
2022 = 111 reports
2023 = 58 reports
I live in a Semi-rural County, so my fees are higher than those in high density Urban/Surburbia because it takes longer to drive comps and my properties are much less homogenous with very few tract communities that have 3 comps within 2 blocks. What sucks for me is that when volume goes down, the Urban appraisers that are used to getting half or 2/3rds my standard fee come across the water into my area and snipe the work for their lower rate but don’t have the geographic competency to do the work correctly. Most AMCs don’t care so above and beyond the slow down, I have more competition from mostly underqualified appraisers. And please don’t question that comment as I am a review appraiser and get to see what they do over in my neck of the woods (pun intended) on a regular basis. Local RE agents can’t stand it, but can’t do anything about it. They always give a sigh of relief when they find the appraiser is from “this side” of the water.
Amc appraisers… Defrauding mortgage consumer customers nationwide, with a smile.
2019 – 380
2020 – 448
2022 – 504
2023 – 201
2024 – 13
2019-2022 coastal fees were 1000 and I did alot of coastal work then. Not so much now that secondary homes are being purchased at an insane rate.
Generally not city work and this is for ANY report type including 1004D and any other type-I did not break down into more expensive reviews and RELO and 1004C and 1025.. its everything. I worked in assessors office until fall of 2016.
year —-total—————# reports-dollars per report
2016 $31,939.45 70 $456.28
2017 $119,190.10 193 $617.57
2018 $110,608.65 196 $564.33
2019 $113,545.50 206 $551.19
2020 $257,689.25 452 $570.11
2021 $446,105.75 532 $838.54
2022 $175,759.00 166 $1,058.79
2023 $25,580.00 46 $556.09
Quite frankly-im shocked that 2023 was 46. its been 2 so far this January.
I know others locally in my profession who are racing to the bottom. when my mechanic charges >$100/hr, plumber is >$100/hour, and lets not talk about or rabbit hole any other professional… well, maybe its time to turn the shop full of tools into a business but then it wont be fun anymore.
There are some in the Seattle area that have been in the game longer than I have and averaged 3 per month. I can’t imagine that. I’m presently covering 17 counties and bust my butt day in day out to try and get new clients, running people in here, push diet more bone lender work, push for SRA, but this classes are not until this summer, even though I cap loads of time right now. Ugh. It’s not easy, but for right now there isn’t much else that I can do to earn the same wage even at this slow pace. See them and write them in 24-48, even if I have due dates way out there. Compared to the pandemic, filling the free time is another task in and off itself.
Jan 2024
4 fulls avg $875
1 1004d @ 250
Here is the quandary…. I get enough “offers” at $450 that I could probably double my workload if I were to only charge half my standard fee. why would I work twice as hard just to make the same amount of money??
But your key process is on point, the moment then come in, get them set, see them, type them and turn them in. Some lenders are trying to “spread the work” and if you have something sitting in your queue you will not get that next order.
I wouldn’t low your fee. Sooner or later they will come begging because the cheap butt Appraiser that keeps lowering the fee can’t do the complex stuff, or they are too busy doing the cheap work that they don’t have time for a challenge. This is hire I got my start and higher fees to boot.
IF EVERYONE demanded $800 per appraisal and didn’t take a dime less; The AMC’s would pay. But as we all know, they pit one “independent starving appraiser” against another and $200 appraisals are the result. NOTHING HAS CHANGED IN THE LAST 25 YEARS!!!! Almost glad I got a brain tumor and was forced to retire.
Jaydee…. you can’t just say that without additional context or consideration…. Are you saying a tract home appraisal with 3 model match sold sales within 3 blocks and both an active and pending sale nearby to round out the lender’s request for those as well should cost $800 and that I should charge the same $800 for a home with similar utility to that property, but with comps that are over a mile away in every direction, none of which are model match sales? you should not be talking total fee, but hourly rates so that there is a uniform/relevant comparison. Arbitrary “base fees” are not a good basis for comparison.
Class is running some damage control on LinkedIn. Highlighting an (independent) appraiser that received 7 orders from them in December and had 0 revisions. They should be totally transparent and disclose… “Appraiser made a whopping $1,750 while helping us net $3,150 and zero blowback from the collateral underwriter. Another day, another dollar scamming borrowers right under their nose”…
Do you have the link linked to that class post?
It’s on their LinkedIn Profile. This is no knock on Michael. Class publicly posted this highlight.
Can you send that to CFPBevidence@gmail.com PLEASE Thankyou
Finally we are getting a meaningful dialougue from the worker bees. YEP took some extra time to provide meaningful business information from years 2016 – 2023. So important because that is indicative of what we all experienced since 2016 (remember my comments as to what is fair and not what you were charging 10 years ago). What do we do? I tell you what we do NOT do, we don’t suggest appropriate fees. Instead we do like Yep. Read between the lines. As Nancy Reagan said “Just say no”. Don’t quote it, don’t respond to you have been assigned this at $……! The bottom feeder are in a panic because they ARE doing twice the work for half the fee. That is their decision. I banked enough with numbers like Yep’ demonstrated to take the rest of the year off. When clients return to quality and service as a measure, we will still be there. And please don’t forget the likes of Lyle Rieke!
I bothered to take out all the fluff work in 2021 which we all know is/was a unicorn year but its a good bellweather and guideline. the average 1004 fee was $977
For those who didnt want to follow teh VA fee link. I am in TX and basic non high demand counties fees are $675.
Anyone gettign that on a normal file?
Lres sends me stuff that is 90-120 minutes away and the stated fee is $350. and its not cookie cutter tract home.
And somebody takes it.
in the unicorn year, i got 20-50 email request/day. i may have gotten 10-15/month last year. probably not even that many and EVERY SINGLE ONE was (if stated) offering a fee under $450 when the VA min fee is $675 in my region.
disclosing your fee is not colluding or anything illegal, in fact in a lot of states its required so whats keeping appraisers from talking about it? I know-its the fact we are all wierd little hermits trapped in our home office going crazy thinking we are the only idiot out there willing to eat bread crusts and ramen.
Speak up or move on.
And stick to your guns.
Great post. I hadn’t laughed all day yet. Neither have I been “engaged” by Class in well over 2 years. Requests for proposals, aka as a bid from Class I’ve seen many. Haven’t bothered with any in well over a year when it became clear that what they claim not to do is precisely what they do. Changing a verb or noun to their definition is not fooling the clear minded. A person who menstruates and has the biological organs to give birth, is still a woman. Request for a proposal is still the bid.
FINALLY…you guys are beginning to open up about fees! A topic that deserves an entire article. Did I say article…i should have said website. Obviously I have no respect for regulations pertaining to forcing a muzzle onto appraisers over fee discussions. If appraiser extortion is legal then so is organizing over fee setting. Sorry U.S. government but you can’t have it both ways.
Interesting….I have never done work for Class(or any amc) and its been probably 4 or 5 years since I received a email from Class this morning. Its for a 3,100 sq ft home with probably a value of $1.5++. Plus, they say its a RUSH order…LOL.
We are reaching out today because we have an order that is a rush or possibly more complex or rural assignment. We only bid assignments that have a special circumstance such as a rush inspection and delivery or a specific competency requirement due to complexity. We ask for both turn time and fee quotes so the end user understands your required compensation. We review bids as received and truly appreciate your partnership with Class Valuation in delivering the best service to our customers. Please also note that by submitting a bid you are certifying that you are geographically competent within the subject’s market area, and maintain the proper access to MLS to be able to appropriately research the data needed on this file.
To view this order, please click here to submit your quote as opposed to sending it in an e-mail reply.
Have a great day!
Class
That’s funny you mention that. Are you in the Ventura County area? I received that same exact bid proposal. I quoted $450 and a 2 day turnaround to see if that was low enough for the sake of this conversation and lost the bid LOL
I received a different bid request from them at 3:00 AM as well. Haven’t gotten one (bid proposals) in months so I wonder how many of them are reading these replies and freaking out a little. Normally they ask me to bid on the $10M+ properties in Malibu. So nice of them!!!
2 More posts on their LinkedIn today as well.
They keep removing my comments on their posts. Guess they don’t like answering questions.
Class really has very little class, if any.
So class has a job posted for staff appraiser in indeed, and one of the things I noticed they stated which was a requirement for the staff appraiser was to “enjoy the suck“. First of all, I find it vulgar, and second of all, how professional of a company are you to release date something like that And I will tell you something else they pretty much beat their staff appraisers into the ground. They offer no reimbursement for MLS, mileage, Internet, phone the only thing they provide to you per a friend of mine, who is a staff appraiser for them is insurance and paid holidays And the paid holidays are not even at the rate you make for what you daily average for appraising it’s just a joke they need to enjoy the suck
Can you please forward that to me Toni can post on linked in and quote it accurately. I was having some fun at their expense on that platform.
Where should I send to you?
How come I am never asked about my experience with the area and that type of property first? Its always what’s your fee and turn time?
Mat J, simply…..its because the fee and turn time is the only criteria that is important to them.