Occupational Licensing Used to Intimidate

Jeremy Bagott

Occupational Licensing Used to Intimidate and Shut Down Discourse. 

It provides no better illustration of how occupational licensing promotes groupthink and intolerance to differing viewpoints…

CALIFORNIA: WHERE RIGOROUS INQUIRY GOES TO DIE

It smothers innovation and silences debate. These have been principal criticisms of occupational licensing over the years, and nowhere is innovation and debate under greater attack than in California.

Last year, lawmakers there passed a bill tasking the state’s regulator of real estate appraisers to apply lopsided scrutiny to valuations that come in “low” (a friction point with the state’s powerful Realtors, lenders and homebuilders). California lawmakers now want to use the state’s medical board to intimidate physicians and surgeons who might be tempted to deviate from the official script on Covid-19.

Assembly Bill 2098 would instruct the board to discipline licensees when they publicly question existing patient-care standards. It provides no better illustration of how occupational licensing promotes groupthink and intolerance to differing viewpoints. Its author is Assembly Member Evan Low of Campbell, California.

The California bill would classify the dissemination of “misinformation” related to Covid as unprofessional conduct and compel the medical board to bring disciplinary actions against physicians and surgeons caught engaging in the practice. What precisely is “misinformation”? The bill leaves that open to interpretation. The bill sets the stage for medical boards to become launching pads for personal and political vendettas.

In the early days of the pandemic, much was learned through trial and error. Thanks to rigorous inquiry and robust debate, we now know that too great a focus was initially placed on early intubation and mechanical ventilation. Outcomes improved when certain patients were kept off a ventilator and placed in a prone position instead. We now know that the relatively inexpensive steroid dexamethasone has been administered to great effect in extremely sick patients.

But these therapies, which are now part of standard treatment, would have initially been considered “misinformation” under the California bill. Lawmakers want the state’s medical board to take action against doctors who peddle “misinformation” about Covid-19 related to the “nature and risks of the virus, its prevention and treatment; and the development, safety and effectiveness of Covid-19 vaccines.”

“State occupational licensing boards can become backward-thinking fiefdoms on their own,” said author Jeremy Bagott. “The involvement of self-interested lawmakers during election years supercharges weaknesses already inherent with these boards. They can become politburos and the damage they do stifles innovation with incalculable costs to society.

“[AB 2098] is a classic example of how occupational licensing can be used to intimidate and shut down discourse,” said Bagott.

The use of licensing boards to silence objectionable but potentially important discourse is not unique to California. Recently, the Illinois Department of Financial and Professional Regulation placed a Sword of Damocles above the heads of physicians and surgeons in that state by issuing a notice to remind them that any advice or treatment provided to a patient must “conform with evidence-based medicine and standards of care and that failure to do so may subject the individual to disciplinary action under the Medical Practice Act.”

The Illinois notice contains a handy link for practitioners to report each other for spreading “misinformation.”

Signed into law last year was Assembly Bill 948, which requires California’s real estate appraiser enforcement bureau to earmark complaints by principally sellers and their agents over putative low appraised values with no equivalent attention to the complaints of buyers who might complain of high values. The law will inevitably cow many appraisers into thinking twice before concluding a value that threatens to upset the seller.

Bagott is not optimistic about the future of free speech as occupational licensing proliferates in the states.

“This is a threat to commercial speech and, in the case of physicians, scientific advancement. States need to find ways to move beyond this antiquated structure,” he said.

Image credit flickr - Amparo Torres O.
Jeremy Bagott

Jeremy Bagott

Jeremy Bagott is a real estate appraiser and former newspaperman. His most recent book, “The Ichthyologist’s Guide to the Subprime Meltdown,” is a concise almanac that distills the cataclysmic financial crisis of 2007-2008 to its essence. This pithy guide to the upheaval includes essays, chronologies, roundups and key lists, weaving together the stories of the politics-infused Freddie and Fannie; the doomed Wall Street investment banks Lehman and Bear Stearns; the dereliction of duty by the Big Three credit-rating services; the mayhem caused by the shadowy nonbank lenders; and the massive government bailouts. It provides a rapid-fire succession of “ah-hah” moments as it lays out the meltdown, convulsion by convulsion.

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40 Responses

  1. Avatar Done says:

    “Buyer agrees to pay for any Appraisal Deficiency,” is in the latest contract I received for a purchase. The house is priced $50,000 over the most recent sales that are within 2 months. In addition, it was bid up an additional $30,000. So, I also received the latest FANNIE newsletter today, talking about how appraisers are being tracked by them for patterns of behavior, whether it be LOW or HIGH appraisals and looking for bias patterns as well. Truth? They want us gone. They do not want new appraisers entering the market. Anything you hear to the contrary is simply a smoke screen. We are threatened personally and at times physically, by agents, mortgage brokers, buyers, sellers. Who would want this job?

    16
    • Baggins Baggins says:

      Pattern of behavior? Like comp searching and declining to even accept orders you know ahead of time are so far off it’s unworkable? I’m detecting a pattern of behavior at FNMA. Where appraiser independence no longer matters, as they intimidate all of us through coercive means to use their ANSI standard even if absolutely nobody else in our professional community has adopted such methods. Indeed.

      5
    • Avatar don says:

      Doesn’t the 1004 format ask for the terms of the offer made? Isn’t that an appraiser item? Or didn’t the client provide the terms for the appraiser’s analysis? Always fill out that section, there is a difference in pricing between 95% financing and 75% financing, and it can be analyzed as a part of the appraisers Opinion of Value. If the deal falls thru is the buyer still responsible? Or would your opinion reflect a penalty or a something else?

      0
  2. Avatar jaydee says:

    What is a “Low appraisal”? There is NO SUCH THING!!! Realtor’s mean an appraisal that didn’t come up to their negotiated sales price. Change my mind.

    10
  3. Avatar That Scott Guy says:

    Policy and laws in Kalifornia eventually are adopted by other states over time. How soon will legislation like this be adopted and become a law in my state? Could it become National legislation adopted by Maxine Waters and her racial bias crusade?

    This is terrifying for the appraisal profession.

    As ‘Done’ says, ‘They want us gone’, and writing is on the wall. Make sure your E & O is up to date, the calls will be coming soon.

    Another nail in the coffin…..

    7
  4. Avatar A CA Appraiser says:

    I was reading a friend’s REALTOR magazine recently. There was an article titled: Action Steps to Take Against Appraisal Bias. Let me say straight away, it REALLY made all appraisers sound awful, terrible and horrible.

    Later that week I was listening to a group of several appraisers discuss the new form in California that will be used starting this summer titled the Fair Appraisal Act. Other states to follow soon I’m told.

    Assume that you are an appraiser and you are an independent contractor. You pick and choose which AMC’s and lenders that you work for.

    They were thinking it would be less risky for a California appraiser to never complete a report for any person that was a different race (if known ahead of time by the appraiser) rather than risk completing the report and possibly coming in with a lower value than the purchase agreement?

    They also thought California will create a law stating if you are a licensed/certified appraiser, you cannot turn down any assignments without good cause.

    It was an interesting conversation and really made me glad I’m almost ready to say goodbye to being an appraiser.

    8
    • Baggins Baggins says:

      Are you missing the IVPI proposal and appraiser value pressure hotline that never materialized yet? They opened it up for I think one or two days, were overwhelmed with calls of lenders immediately abusing the system to actually apply value pressure on appraisers, and shut it down. Anyone have that old article?

      https://www.workingre.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/IVPI-Proposalfinal.pdf

      https://www.liability.com/claudia-says/claudia-shopping-for-value/

      Let’s revisit the working re ‘appraisal independence’ complaints they assimilated and posted conveniently in one long tirade of appraiser complaints. As PAVE and other agencies first call for ‘appraisal industry advisement’ are these amc jokers.

      Government regulators are currently failing to complete their tasks impartially and independently on just about every task in all too many industries. Regulator is the new synonym for big corporate advocate.

      https://www.workingre.com/appraiser-independence-survey-results-comments/

      2
      • Avatar A CA Appraiser says:

        With all due respect (if any) I have NO clue what you are talking about half of the time. IVPI? “As PAVE and other agencies first call for ‘appraisal industry advisement’ are these amc jokers.” ??? I understand: “Regulator is the new synonym for big corporate advocate.”

        2
        • Baggins Baggins says:

          Well thanks for that. Read the IVPI document front to back. It was an entirely better proposal which people put serious effort into. And the industry did try and adopt the valuation pressure hotline, but lenders immediately abused it and sadly was shut down. It’s never too late to adopt a clearinghouse approach though. Then; given the volume of complaints, per the working re link at the bottom of that post, these amcs are so bold to claim any credibility when 3 out of 4 appraisers nationally refuse to work for them. They have no business advising anyone on appraisal industry policies. I’m not clear on what you want clarification on. It’s just a lot of information all the time and speed reading helps. Sure you want to punch out disrespectful commentary to me? I did no such thing to you. Want to play a game?

          2
  5. Avatar BA says:

    Why can’t we as a group start petitions and when enough signatures are acquired send the petition to the proper authority that can either do further investigation on the issue or at least give it some support or even a voice?

    Right now we need to address the Maxine Waters claims. Why not start a petition requesting appraiser participation/representation in the meetings? Every other group seems to find a way to accomplish this.

    Now while we see the bifurcated appraisal being promoted why not address this with a petition to the State Consumer Protection Bureaus? We could choose the most important issues effecting us and/or consumers and try to effect change. What do we have to lose by at least trying?

    I think there are most likely a lot of things that can be done for Appraisers and the Appraisal Industry’s benefit or at least to give the Appraisal profession a voice. But who should be doing this?

    Lets face it the reason we are in this mess and these quagmires is our own fault. We did not (and do not) believe enough in our own industry and the importance of what we do. We did not say NO out of fear of being black balled or skipped over for work. We did not support each other and we did not stand together when the decisions effecting us were proposed and then implemented.

    We let them push us right into the corner on EVERY turn out of fear for our jobs. We never stand together and we do not stand up for ourselves as a group. We act like independents to our own demise.

    For years Banks worked diligently to circumvent or/and to get rid of Real Estate Agents. NAR has continued to win the battle to keep banks out of Real Estate Sales. Realtors did not lay down and let it happen. Every time there is an issue that threatens the Real Estate Industry the Realtors show up to protect their interests.

    I mean really the US work force changed the way workers are treated today. They demanded the employers create work weeks, benefits and even minimum wages. Many groups (even small groups) made changes that effected their industry and many other groups have taken their power back and demanded a voice WHY CAN’T WE??

    Just wondering if I am the only one who believes there is STILL TIME.

    3
    • Baggins Baggins says:

      It’s o.k. to discriminate against appraisers though. Plain and simple, none of the protections extended to American citizens in a great many other industries, including other industries whom engage heavily with 1099 independent terms, those same protections do not apply to appraisers.

      You’re giving me Dave Biggers HVCC flash backs. That betrayal of trust when he severed away Mercury, passed off management of Alamode, then ultimate sold the company… Hope you’re happy with the wreckage you left behind Dave. Enjoy your money. Looks like blogs dot alamode dot com finally removed their old Dave Biggers story on delivering those thousands of petitions regarding HVCC. Anyone have that one around? Remember, it had an actual photo of the stacks of boxes all the appraisers signed petitions, I think it was on a little handheld dolly roller. You see BA, we’ve been there, done that, it did not matter.

      Found this again:
      https://www.federalreserve.gov/supervisionreg/caletters/21-3%20Attach.pdf

      Control+F to call up search feature, enter; customary.

      Valuation Independence – 12 CFR 1026.42 Regulation Z seeks to ensure that real estate appraisers, and others preparing valuations, are free to use their independent professional judgment in assigning home values without influence or pressure from those with interests in the transactions. Regulation Z also seeks to ensure that appraisers receive customary and reasonable payments for their services. Regulation Z’s valuation rules apply to creditors and settlement services providers for consumer credit

      Oh… Customary AND Reasonable, not customary or reasonable. And what’s this about independent professional judgment? Like not wanting to use this damned ANSI nonsense? Can FNMA be considered ‘a settlement service provider’?

      Then search this term: CFR 1026.42

      Valuation Independence 1. Determine that the covered person did not attempt to directly or indirectly cause the value assigned to the consumer’s principal dwelling to be based on any factor other than the independent judgment of a person that prepares valuations. Examples of such attempts include (12 CFR 1026.42(c)): (see pg 350 of 377 for the proper format)
      a. Seeking to influence a person that prepares a valuation to report a minimum or maximum value for the consumer’s principal dwelling;
      b. Withholding or threatening to withhold timely payment to a person that prepares a valuation or performs valuation management functions because the person does not value the consumer’s principal dwelling at or above a certain amount;
      c. Implying to a person that prepares valuations that current or future retention of the person depends on the amount at which the person estimates the value of the consumer’s principal dwelling;
      d. Excluding a person that prepares a valuation from consideration for future engagement because the person reports a value for the consumer’s principal dwelling that does not meet or exceed a predetermined threshold; and
      e. Conditioning the compensation paid to a person that prepares a valuation on consummation of the covered transaction. 2.Determine that the valuation does not materially misrepresent the value of the consumer’s principal dwelling (12 CFR 1026.42(c)(2)(i)).

      NOTE: A misrepresentation is material if it is likely to significantly affect the value assigned to the consumer’s principal dwelling. A bona fide error shall not be a misrepresentation.

      3. Determine that a valuation was not falsified or materially altered (12 CFR 1026.42(c)(2)(ii)). NOTE: An alteration is material if it is likely to significantly affect the value assigned to the consumer’s principal dwelling.
      4. Determine that the covered person does not induce a person to materially misrepresent or falsify the value of a consumer’s principal dwelling (in violation of 12 CFR 1026.42(c)(2)(i) or (ii) (12 CFR 1026.42(c)(2)(iii)) 5.Prohibition on conflicts of interest. To the extent applicable, determine that the person who prepared the valuations or performed the valuation management functions for a covered transaction did not have a direct or indirect interest, financial or otherwise, in the property or transaction for which the valuation is or will be performed (12 CFR 1026.42(d)(1)(i)).

      Just face facts people, these regulators and legislators have never even bothered to read the actual law they themselves passed and are tasked with defending.

      How about this search term; appraisal management

      Interagency Consumer Laws and Regulations
      TILA March 2021 TILA 143 transactions secured by the consumer’s principal dwelling (covered transaction) and includes several provisions that protect the integrity of the appraisal process when a consumer’s principal dwelling is securing the loan. In general, the rule prohibits “covered persons” from engaging in coercion, bribery, and other similar actions designed to cause anyone who prepares a valuation to base the value of the property on factors other than the person’s independent judgment.41 More specifically, Regulation Z:
      • Prohibits coercion and other similar actions designed to cause appraisers to base the appraised value of properties on factors other than their independent judgment;
      • Prohibits appraisers and appraisal management companies hired by lenders from having financial or other interests in the properties or the credit transactions;
      • Prohibits creditors from extending credit based on appraisals if they know beforehand of violations involving appraiser coercion or conflicts of interest, unless the creditors determine that the values of the properties are not materially misstated;
      • Prohibits a person who prepares a valuation from materially misrepresenting the value of the consumer’s principal dwelling, and prohibits a covered person other than the person who prepares valuations from materially altering a valuation. A misrepresentation or alteration is material if it is likely to significantly affect the value assigned to the consumer’s principal dwelling;
      • Prohibits any covered person from falsifying a valuation or inducing a misrepresentation, falsification, or alteration of value;
      • Requires that creditors or settlement service providers that have information about appraiser misconduct file reports with the appropriate state licensing authorities if the misconduct is material (i.e., likely to significantly affect the value assigned to the consumer’s principal dwelling; and
      • Requires the payment of customary and reasonable compensation to appraisers who are not employees of the creditors or of the appraisal management companies hired by the creditors.

      NOTE: Voluntary donation of appraisal services by a fee appraiser42 to an organization eligible to receive tax-deductible charitable contributions meets the customary-and-reasonable requirements(15 U.S.C.1639e(i)(2)(B)).

      Ah, regulation nobody follows and so very very few have even taken the time to read.

      Refreshing!

      1
      • Baggins Baggins says:

        https://appraisalnewsonline.typepad.com/appraisal_news_for_real_e/archives.html
        Sometimes it’s good to have perspective on how things used to be.

        Oh have you seen this one? Zero Hedge; There goes the housing market. Similar trends as before previous crashes. And some dude was talking on the radio today about pages and pages of public notifications of preforeclosures in local papers. I’m going to look for that here soon.
        https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/us-builders-warn-significant-shift-housing-market-amid-affordability-crisis

        1
        • Avatar Done says:

          Check out foreclosure.com

          1
          • Baggins Baggins says:

            Hi there Done. Is this a teaser site or real time? Are they pulling from county notifications or a bank source for their information?

            How is stated price/value of the property structured? AVM, some sort of internal bank work already completed than the information posted to the online listing via confirmed info, etc etc.

            Most importantly, do those figures reflect some form of discounted pricing structure, and is it worth it to actually create an account on that foreclosure website.

            What the dude was saying on the radio may be true, I found thousands in larimer and weld, both places we seriously want to move too in Colorado. A completely different experience than reviewing MLS because as I looked just yesterday, actual actives not uc in those areas of everything all at once is a hundred or less most of the time, and if calling uc, still way under a thousand, like 200-400 variable number. Open market mls turnover remains rather low.

            How does one get ahead of something like this to make a purchase play at a property not listed in mls yet? Thank you.

            1
            • Avatar Done says:

              I don’t have the answers. But it showed 275 REO including pre foreclosures, tax sales, sheriffs sales. You have to sign up with them for further info. I opted not to do that. And I don’t know their source. If you have Realist, it flags REO and short sale properties. My point is that I think that there is a hige wave of foreclosure activity hiding….temporarily perhaps.

              1
              • Baggins Baggins says:

                My HUD REO people tell me just hang tough, they expect an uptick in foreclosures soon. I’m going to call my reo specialty realty guy for more info on this. If I get anything worthwhile, will share. Thank you.

                2
                • Baggins Baggins says:

                  Hi Done. I was putting in some foreclosure research, it’s coming back to me now. Notice of intent filed, public information. Cure period defined. Most cure out. If unable or unwilling to cure, moves on to public auction via county trustee. Listed for sale, qualified bidders, then sale posted publicly. It’s pretty straight forward but after about a day on this I remember why we made a play at an MLS listing rather than take on such uncertainty and monumental time to research efforts w/ auctions, when the far majority of these notices don’t actually go all the way to foreclosure. Most records are just people for one reason or another, not paying their bills.

                  One of the interesting trends I observed which was not happening last cycle circa 2010 and before, is that many lenders are buying their own properties back at the indebted amount. Then I keep seeing them having resold at current market value, substantially higher. I did observe a housing developer bid on some vacant land and the debt shortage was in the millions, but otherwise for regular suburbia it appears that if people are bidding, they’re paying defaulted amounts or substantially higher. I observed a small handful of llc’s and unique identifier purchasers having ran multiple purchase then rehab open mls market resales over the past year or two. Looks like they’re raking 100k to 200k per effort. But there are not too many of them.

                  Then I’m reviewing terms and condition for participating in the auction. Oh yes it’s all coming back to me now and my ears are burning red. That’s because I’m imagining myself handing fifty thousand dollar certified funds check or money orders to the treasurer, and also having to specifically do that for whatever I intend to bid on. It’s not quite the penny auction one may romanticize, from back in the day.

                  However, it’s interesting to review the material. The body of notices appear to be financial distress and the delay time while the county manages these people in the foreclosure pipelines appear to be substantial, year, sometimes more, probably special policies post covid accounting for delays. When given time it appears many people here are curing the arrears if that’s the right language, and are curing. Of course we’re in a hot market so in all probability, that accounted for some turnover as they sold and cashed out instead, no short position required. But every now and then, the opportunistic bidders carve out exceptional below market value purchases which happen to be higher than indebted amounts, and I keep seeing them back on market getting flipped. Research method includes a lot of address highlighting, r click search on google, and date range research speculation, just looked at a few hundred pdf notices.

                  Looks like it’s not quite swirling the bowl yet and the notice of foreclosure quantity which is actually making it to the end point auction setting is still very low, could be 1%,2%, just quite low, dozens of pages of notices, a sparse few individuals in the posted monthly sales list. That was interesting to research though, but I think in positive appreciation markets, don’t hold your breath waiting for the reo market to boost forward quite yet. It’s reactionary and right now things appear to be mostly in control, at least in the few mid affluent counties I researched in CO.

                  These dang websites like foreclosure dot com, they don’t tell the whole story. They just monetize the searchability of publicly posted default lists but the real deal is if the filing does not get cured, otherwise the data instance is not an actual foreclosure, not yet at least. There are not quite as many actual foreclosures, just a lot of notice of intent to foreclose. They don’t really advertise those points, those sites are like click bait for fix flip hopefuls whom don’t understand county research. One does get slightly apprehensive when so many new notices appear though, that part has ticked up, we’ll see what happens.

                  Here; An overview of the process. Many make it cryptic so this was a nice refresher to read on the process requirements of bidding with the trustee.
                  https://larimer.realforeclose.com/index.cfm?ZACTION=HOME&ZMETHOD=FSALEPOL
                  And here is another county example of posted lists
                  https://apps.adcogov.org/PTForeclosureSearch/allreports.aspx
                  One compares foreclosure notices (which is going to be the ‘current scheduled date range’ search boxes, put that past month to a few months in future), one compares total volume of notices against final end point reo off the posted lists, I’m just guessing a few percent but it’s not much.
                  https://apps.adcogov.org/PTForeclosureSearch/index.aspx

                  It’s a business you know, there are a set of people whom track these systems and they do so over a large area, they show up with cash in hand to bid, sometimes in the blind. They’re carving out exceptional margins although one ponders the substantial time drain to research so many, only to have bidding chances on so few. Lenders are interested bidders now too because if people are not smart enough or are too stubborn to sell out willingly, lenders have no problem bidding at the indebted amount and then flipping units back to market for sizeable profits. Important to keep your eye on these things though, because if the posted reo lists ever do start to swell in the specific area researched, that’s how you know housing value is unraveling. This is the kind of research where one my also be able to infer data for a certain region as having better or worse ability to be resilient to economic forces, the actual foreclosure and repossession ratios here vs there and point in time past vs current. I remember 15 years ago everything on the list moved all the way to the reo pipeline over multiple years, so much so they could not even get sold at short or auction, these units went all the way back to the lender whom just liquidated and took massive write downs, they were all in the reo section of MLS. Many do not realize that in order for a unit to get to MLS as a defaulted unit, there has already been multiple purchase opportunities in between.

                  Did you know that we are standing by to pay you ‘an equivalent of market value through our process’ and will buy your home for 100% cash? No appraisal necessary, no commissions, no fees, close on your schedule! That was fun research but it went nowhere.

                  0
  6. Avatar Mike says:

    I’m so tired of the same bs thrown on appraisers all the time. This business is gone folks!

    4
    • Avatar don says:

      When we were solicited for Licensing back in the 90’s we were mixed in with the “Interior Decorators”, some laughed at that, thought it a joke. Was it. Our first California appraiser was an MAI who couldn’t deal with under funding from the pols and brought in part time help from other government agencies, violating CA employment acts. He was threatened and fired.

      When we consolidated, accepted licensing and tried independence we screwed ourselves. We have always been manipulated by stronger forces. Only our independent contracts allow us to protect ourselves, we will be sued, for that is the way.

      2
      • Baggins Baggins says:

        That is the way. However, there is more than just one avenue for occupational licensing success. I’ve been sharing similar pessimistic views which we all know by now are well founded, but others have a dissimilar outlook. When and if the GSE’s finally abandon using live human appraisers we may very well get a serious boost from insurers and other forensic review companies whom will subsequently try to figure out what the hell happened to the surety of their loans, on this rock.

        2
        • Avatar don says:

          Our justice system prevails. Anyone can sue! A judge can refuse the case or accept it. “Us, the public has to defend ourselves, otherwise greater injustice will take over.
          That is the letter of the law.
          Don’t be taken over?

          1
  7. Avatar Realist says:

    Almost across the board – anything the left accuses the right of doing is in reality what the left if doing. As I have said many times, the power abusers of the left know their constituency well; and that they will follow and swallow anything their leaders spew. The left’s followers are willfully ignorant, naïve, total deceived and/or fully indocturanated. Real truth is becoming obsolete and is being replaced with the false truth as twisted and distorted by the whims of the left. And few will stand up for real truth because the totalitarian left will attempt to destroy those who do. Having a relative who recently became a medical doctor, I fear for the evil that will be foisted on her. I suspect the left will again fix the upcoming elections so they do not lose power, and they will likely make real truth a faint memory, along with real freedom.

    4
    • Avatar Done says:

      Really? Did the left attempt a coup to subvert the election on Jan 11th? You are pushing the false narrative that the liar continues, that he really won, with no credible information to back it up. He lost. Period. 8 million votes say so. Even Mark Esper cites numerous incidents in which T wanted to shoot people, but was stopped from doing so. Stop with the left vs right bs. What about right from wrong?

      0
      • Baggins Baggins says:

        2000 Mules. The new movie from Dinesh D’souza.
        You can order the movie streaming or dvd here; And you can watch the trailer.
        https://watch.salemnow.com/series/xFOCFe59zfCS-2000-mules

        Free copies keep showing up and I posted one the other day which is now gone. Not sure how this rumble deal works but you may be able to watch it free if you sub, not sure. I just ordered the dvd and like millions of other interested people, have already watched the movie.
        https://rumble.com/v13v4sv-2000-mules.html

        Here is just some of the more recent activity from Judicial Watch on the matter of democratic counties failing miserably to clean their voter rolls.
        https://www.judicialwatch.org/north-carolina-voter-rolls-lawsuit/
        Colorado still holds the crown for having the most counties, with more people registered than actually live there and are registered, or are even alive in some cases.

        And let’s not forget about the Biden Curve, that’s a real thing too. So many examples what to choose… The thing about deception, you have to use force alongside propaganda to get people to play along, because otherwise common sense takes over and they tend to want the truth instead.

        3
      • Avatar Realist says:

        To Done. I guess you have the corner on truth. But from my point of view you may have stopped too soon in your search for truth on the issues you addressed. Based on my extensive research I have come to different conclusions than you regarding truth in these instances. The difference between me and much of left is that, I want to protect your right to express your opinion, whereas, much of the left wants the cancel my freedom of expression; and even make it a crime to disagree with them. This is their version of tolerance. When I read Orwell several years, I viewed it as a nightmare. Newer knew it would be a playbook that the left embraces. I will never stop with “the left vs the right BS”, as you call it. I detest to the nth degree a political mindset that embraces fascism, socialism, communism, marxism – or the current left wing ideology that is a hybrid of all 4.

        3
        • Avatar Done says:

          So the right wants to dictate to a woman what she does with her body. But you see that as the left taking away freedoms? Are you so blind? Freedoms to kill with guns? Frerdom to not wear a mask and kill someone with your virus? Freedoms you speak of are not rights. You have no right to kill. A fertilized egg is not yet a person. But you think you should decide its fate? Yes. We think differently.

          0
          • Baggins Baggins says:

            There is that annoying propaganda, repeated again. We’re out here killing everyone and putting peoples lives in danger from a virus with a 99.9% survivability rate, by not wearing unnecessary counter productive environmentally damaging and personal health destroying and liberty destroying masks.

            Please allow me to introduce you to the concept of voluntarism. It’s nobody elses business if anyone else adopts guns, or masks. The role of government is not to tell us how we ought to live, as the role of government is specifically limited to protecting our liberties. We should not be using the force of government to push other innocent people around.

            https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/inhaled-microplastics-lung-tissue-face-masks/
            https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/cdc-lowers-expectations-speech-development/
            https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/3-million-masks-a-minute/

            Mandatory mask supporters seriously hate the environment.

            You know what, we’re tired of radicals out there trying to tell us what we’re supposed to be doing with our bodies. We said no to testing. We said no to tracing. We said no to masks. We said no to vaccines. No means no and it does not mean anything else. We also said no to big government because taxation is theft. Get your mind around it.

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          • Avatar Realist says:

            Its the new “human” body, also expressed as “person” inside her that needs protecting. Just because there are some physical connections to the mother prior to birth does not diminish the baby’s personhood status in spite of how the pro-abortion camp tries to twist the real truth. Find a new kind of birth control other than abortion. If the baby is not convenient, put them up for adoption. And yes I put my money where my mouth is, all my children are adopted. And we are eternally grateful to the birth mom’s for their tough decisions.

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            • Avatar Done says:

              And we disagree on that. Twisting truth is what I see too in the pro -life camp. And you have no right to make that choice for a woman. In your own family, you make your choices. In mine, not. And it is not pro-abortion. It is pro-choice.

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              • Baggins Baggins says:

                That’s a reasonable position, individual choices and one should not be coerced. Let’s wipe away the political lens and review the concept of individual sovereignty on a broader spectrum. The most important point any one of us can consider is; do you personally agree with the use of force by government on it’s own citizens?

                Logic test: Would you agree; (Y/N)
                all vaccinations should be voluntary without penalty or influence from the government,
                mask wearing should be voluntary without penalty or influence from the government,
                maintaining ones business in an open state at any time without penalty restriction or influence from the government,
                maintaining ones ability to work freely all the time without penalty restriction or influence from the government,
                maintaining free speech all the time without penalty or denial of participation, or influence from the government,
                maintaining right to assembly all the time without penalty or influence from the government,
                maintaining ability to travel freely without penalty or restriction,
                maintaining private non public individual control over ones personal health choices all the time without penalty or influence from the government,
                maintaining your own medical records in an absolutely private setting, without penalty or influence from the government,
                maintaining sovereignty to personal reproductive health decisions all the time without penalty or influence from the government.

                Or if you answered no to any of the above questions on personal decision making sovereignty, a new question arises; how much force and coercion do you think is appropriate to thrust your will upon others, using the force of government or even personal non governmental sanctioned force? If one agrees with the use of force, we then must define acceptable levels of force to be applied. Social penalties? Financial penalties? Physical penalties? Capital punishment? Who decides the appropriate measure of force; The person imposing the force or the person subject to receiving the force?

                Covid highlighted the governments existing over reach, as the equal protection clause is all but abandoned. You could choose here, choice was removed there, this person worked, that class of worker did not, this group subjected to vax mandate, that group not subjected, this state affirmed personal liberty, that state eroded liberties further. So people got up and left, they voted with their wallets and their feet. As it turns out, although this is entirely predictable; freedom loving people are not all that keen to the use of government force when it becomes imposed on them personally. The concept is all well and good when one is on the receiving end of the welfare warfare state benefits, but as they say; be careful what you wish for.

                Any and every instance of departure from voluntarism has dire consequences which is where historical quotes like Lincoln come in; Familiarize yourselves with the chains of bondage and you are preparing your own limbs to wear them. Accustomed to trample on the rights of those around you, you have lost the genius of your own independence, and become the fit subjects of the first cunning tyrant who rises. (I think we’ve all observed quite a few examples of that lately.) Liberty, love it or leave it. And once it’s gone, you won’t get it back.

                Sovereignty is a simple concept. Because there is no middle ground to the concept of personal liberty. Liberty is an all or nothing proposition. Abortion complicates the issue because the argument may be subjective to people depending on their point of view, defining the confirmation of person hood at conception or all the way to at birth. Yet the principal being debated is the same; Should government be involved at all? Remember that we should always debate the principal first, and should never embrace unconstitutional principals, like the use of force by government. Because; We hold these truths to be self evident.

                And I’ll just throw in there; Maintaining liberty for personal choice to decide what sketch methods an individual appraiser should use. See, another abuse of position and authority by the force of government. FNMA ANSI FAQ; Can appraisers voluntarily opt out of using the ANSI standard; “NO”. I have never read a more offensive piece of government guidance. A one word denial, because they have the overburdening power to do so and don’t even need to explain why. The rhetoric of no, applied by FNMA. Whomever wrote that should be fired, they have no place regulating anyone or anything, because they abuse their positions over others.

                Nothing is more offensive to the principals of liberty and the human condition in general, than departing from voluntarism and voluntary engagements. We don’t need mandates, uniform standards, or the use of force when we have personal accountability through the use of sound money and contract law. That is what Article1 Section 10 is all about.

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                • Avatar Done says:

                  I agree with much of your post. But… in worldwide pandemic, measures need to be taken to stem the spread. Our health care workers died from it. Others quit or committed suicide due to the repeated trauma they faced every day for two years. That is not a usual situation and needs to be treated differently. If you choose not to mask, not to vaccinate, I can’t make you do that. But I can limit the result of your misguided position by limiting your ability to access places in the name of a public safety hazard. You do not have the right to expose others to the virus. Regarding ANSI, the goal is datamining our work. So I don’t support that. More to come… later

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                  • Baggins Baggins says:

                    You’re dealing with false data though. What many people need in their lives and may benefit from, are non corporate news sources. Content control is the name of the game in the era of silent wars.
                    https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/
                    https://thevaccinereaction.org/
                    https://www.mercola.com/
                    https://thelibertydaily.com/

                    The pandemic of the gullible not the pandemic of the unvaxxinated. The difference between ‘conspiracy theory’ which would get one censored and even fired, vs what then became at a later date as recognized fact, the time difference for valid truthful data recognition was about 6 months to a year. The vast majority of trauma suffered, was due to the governments use of force, not a virus. Rampant censorship is simply unethical.

                    The masks like the covid vaccines did more harm than good as every whimsical politician turned into an armchair doctor and listened only to big pharma advocates already in place at the government level. Natural immunity works, much better than masks or vaccines. These masks are primarily made of plastic and have already turned into an environmental disaster in coastal areas. They are not recyclable. Nobody knows for sure, except that humans consumed and then disposed of trillions upon trillions of masks in only a few short years time.

                    Make a choice; Embrace the principals of liberty and voluntarism or abandon them all together. There is no middle ground. There is no qualifying; liberty for this but not for that. That’s not how liberty works. The free world is for the brave. The fearful can stay at home. Attempt to restrict other persons liberties at your own peril; we’re not going to voluntarily relinquish our god granted inalienable rights.

                    Personally I never stayed at home, I never stopped, our immediate family was never tested traced or jabbed one single time. We helped spread natural immunity in a safe manner, much safer than the misguided persons whom sought to impose segregation, social distancing, shut downs, and asinine concepts like vaccine passports. These liberal position arguments have been delivered to you to repeat, they are not your own independent conclusions based on objective impartial consideration. It’s difficult to reconcile, but you’ve been lied to by the institutions and people you trusted to have your best interests in mind.

                    I’m not giving any ground. We do not give an inch on liberty or they take more than a mile and we never get it back. Be thankful people like us are still out there, or you would not have any liberties for yourself left today. Go on, return to your abortion argument, and please remember to be kind and respectful to people whom disagree with you. None of us should ever argue the use of force without also being prepared ahead of time to accept the use of force without objection if that principal is applied to us. If you want personal choice the concession is simple; You must promise to never remove anyone elses ability to freely choose themselves. We must always defend those whom are not capable of defending themselves. That is the American way. Truth. Honor. Justice. We The People.

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                    • Avatar Done says:

                      This is where we part ways. Not everything is a conspiracy. Masks saved lives. Natural immunity cannot exist in the way you describe. I am fully vaccinated but had Covid in January. I credit the vaccine with my speedy recovery. Appraisers died from Covid. And many have long Covid debilitating effects. I won’t continue this conversation. While I believe you have insight on many things, this is not one of them. Peace, Baggins.

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                      • Baggins Baggins says:

                        Absolutely, make up your own mind about your own health decisions. That’s the way these things are supposed to shake out. Don’t forget to examine all available data, and look at the other side, links provided. Also, take the time to read the disclaimers on the side of the mask box. Thank you as well, great conversation here.

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                    • Avatar Realist says:

                      I had the first 2 covid shots and had long term health affects from the shots. I will not, and wish I had not taken the first 2 shots. I live in one of the towns where a version of the covid stuff is made. Several Doctors and scientist who worked on the inoculation formula are quite fearful of the long term affects of messing with the DNA as well as other issues. Again, the left politicians and most of the corrupted press have suppressed findings, opinions and research of highly qualified scientist and doctors opposing the totalitarian control and massive power grab – also cancelling many of them. Also, medicines proven to be effective against covid were suppressed and in many cases made unavailable. Bits of truth have recently been leaking out, no thanks to the main stream press. Most of the truth will probably be squelched.

                      While I would argue that conspiracy’s play a smaller part in America’s demise, much of leftist creations which are destroying America do not have to be from organized conspiracies. Thanks to the ever growing points of indoctrination – there is a large left wing mindset that is snowballing. Enjoy the new left-sided world. It looks unstoppable at this point in time. Congratulations. So wear a mask the rest of your life, have no weapons to protect yourself or you family, terminate the current rate of 3,000 babies per day, and on and on.

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                      • Baggins Baggins says:

                        Here to posters Done and Realist, and anyone else interested in truth, please read this.

                        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9062939/

                        This very very important piece blows the lid off of so much medical industry propaganda which many have been exposed to, and regrettably accepted. If in doubt, opt out. Important principals to live by. This is the most comprehensive piece summarizing the past several years of covid and malpractice I have ever read. Wanted to share this, just received from my family network today. And it’s only fitting to be in this thread about occupational licensing used to intimidate, as that is a root cause of this mismanagement. It’s sad, but never too late to change course.

                        Realist, get the ivermectin it’s proven to reduce many side effects and is completely safe with the right dose based on your body weight. Where as the masks are proven to instantly promote dangerous pathogen cultures which then spread. As case count spikes with each round of vaccines. One day people will realize their acceptance of these policies is what perpetuated the problem, that the first round of wild virus would have burned out and we’d all have natural immunity, if not for the vaccines. And far fewer would have perished if the government did nothing at all. Then after vaccines, the virus came from within themselves, formed of their own fault for complying with irrational public health ‘mandates’. All the compliant people are at fault, not persons whom resisted. It’s a position which many will find hard to reconcile, as they are still voluntarily so deeply immersed and acceptant of ongoing propaganda. Good ideas do not require force. People seem to be finally understanding this concept more broadly, let’s hope it’s not too late. Thank you.

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                        • Avatar Done says:

                          Sorry Baggins. You find one doctor who is refuting, making accusations and arriving at his own conclusions. I don’t believe there is any conspiracy. I don’t believe this article. And, Baggins, it’s like backing into a predetermined value. Not buying it.

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                          • Baggins Baggins says:

                            One doctor? You appear to have made presumptions and have not bothered to put in real research, preferring to be spoon fed corporate talking points. That guy assimilated factual discoveries from untold research efforts over many years. Try a worldwide consortium of tens of thousands of high level esteemed doctors, phd’s, and a hundred thousand or more medical professionals whom have been silenced from the public eye, if you don’t know where to look. Try again. I told you it would be difficult to reconcile. Welcome to the power of censorship, and why freedom of speech is the first amendment. It’s all been done before under different iterations. If there is such grave risk, how could all these people be just fine without partaking in the illusion? You have been lied to. Unless you think there is no financial motivation for bias, a strange position for a valuation analysis professional to take. I’m sure the greatest wealth transfer in human history, so much that billions went to single individuals, had nothing to do with this. Perhaps go check out facebook, or any of the thousand other sub publications ran by a handful of global companies, they make sure to shield you from such possibly disconcerting revelations regarding corruption and power. Thanks for playing, come again.

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              • Avatar don says:

                The question is MURDER to be decided by the STATE.

                Conception, or viability or survivability, as decided by the sheriff or the D.A. or both agreeing.

                Prosecution should be decided in the States, not by the undeciding.

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Occupational Licensing Used to Intimidate

by Jeremy Bagott time to read: 3 min
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