We Need a Lobbyist
Who is going to organize raising the funds and hiring the lobbyist?
We are woefully behind the curve here. Myself and many others were organized in the early 1990s and managed to protect the appraisers’ interests for the most part at that time. Here in 2023, there does not appear to be any meaningful response other than the same old anecdotal war stories we pass along among ourselves. Yes, past markets crashed due to really bad mortgage products/underwriting, and banks failed due to really bad management decisions to go along with those mortgage schemes, but if Uncle Sam is going to reimburse them for their losses and bail them out, well they have just found a way back to the gambling table. As I recall someone once said that, whoever complains about something without offering a solution is just whining. So my fellow appraisers, who has the plan?
How about we put together a coalition of the appraisal trade associations to fund & organize this campaign into an informative counter-offensive to the powers that be?
Let’s say we get 20,000 appraisers to contribute to a $5,000,000 campaign that will pay for the lobbyist who can identify the key politicians to whom to direct the political contributions and educate on the issues. Fortunately at this point, the “No Appraisal Necessary” movement is only in the regulatory rule state, not law. The regulatory process is easier to fix. If appraisers had lobbyist like the AMCs we would never be in this position. Do any of the trade associations have a legislative liaison? If so, wake them up.
Politicians drive the regulators and money drives the politicians. We are analysts, so let’s figure it out. The Mortgage Bankers Association Political Action Committee (MORPAC) spent approximately $3,000,000 in 2021-2022 to influence federal politicians, and the mortgage bankers got what they paid for. Let’s do better.
This needs to happen. Create the page towards a lobbyist donation and I will open my wallet. This is a field of dreams moment. If you build it APPRAISERS will come. It’s time. We have to do something or we will all be put out of business. We can no longer allow this to happen to our profession. Anyone else tired of chasing the carrot only to get the stick. I know I am.
David (& Pat) You both know that will never happen. 20,000 appraisers? Paying $5,000 apiece? Seriously? No one could get 20,000 appraisers willing to pay $1.00.
It’s time for all of us as appraisers to stop daydreaming and wasting time on nonproductive efforts.
We’ve had this discussion once before for hours. Before State Coalitions came about in any meaningful….including the lobbyist aspect. Back then Pat, your suggested lobbyist that attended the conference call wanted a $100,000 retainer per year. That’s also per issue by the way.
We at AGA didn’t see it as a time to undermine anyone trying to resolve issues of concern. I had reservations based on past experiences, but there is a learning curve in ‘fighting city hall’ or any government agency. A LONG learning curve. So we supported coalitions whenever asked. I think at one point there were as many as 20-25 coalitions (on paper anyway). Few have stayed the course.
Everyone wants simple, overnight answers. Including the coalitions. With the exception of VaCAP and perhaps North Carolina (& definitely the folks down in Louisiana)I can’t think of a state coalition still in existence that is doing ANYTHING today. Though they certainly could & should be.
The challenge is that appraisers want someone else to solve their problems for them, and unfortunately our ‘problems’ or concerns are not always the same as other appraisers.
FWIW when we asked appraisers how many would be interested in joining in a class action suit to recover money from FNMA for their past data theft 745+- responded in writing. At that time we had over 80,000 appraisers in the country.
I thought 745 was a pretty good number, BUT even if every single one of us contributed $100 the war chest would still only be $74,500. (AND there had been no discussion at that point about funding legal fees. The objective was (then) to try to find a contingency fee-based situation with a deep-pocket law firm.
There isn’t a prayer 20,000 appraisers would or COULD kick in $5,000 each for anything. There is no chance of a $100 million legal fund. 20,000 appraisers is almost half the number of residential appraisers in existence.
If 1/4th that many more appraisers joined AGA we COULD ask AFL-CIO to take up our issues more directly. That’s about $1.875 million in annual dues…of which about $360,000 would go ‘upstream’ to parent unions.
Appraisers are not big joiners. Even the AI has to include foreign membership and U.S. associate memberships to show 20,000 members, and their fees are far lower than $5,000 a year. (That’s not a criticism-I’m envious. But, then again, they have been at it for almost 85+- years now).
Lobbyists are not now, and have never been the answer to solving all our issues. Lobbyists typically take ONE issue to their contacts. We have dozens of issues right out of the gate. On top of this, many of our most important issues and concerns would be directly opposed by other appraisers. Influential appraisers.
Like AI. Like AMC owning appraisers. Like puppy mill appraiser shops. Like regulatory agency appraisers. Like staff appraisers of banks, title insurance companies, insurance companies and self serving appraisal software companies.
I appreciate the frustration. I sincerely applaud the dedication of those making suggestions. Pat’s been fighting for us all far longer than I have. David is fired up and sincere, But I urge all to stop trying to reinvent the square wheel. It won’t go anywhere.
The answer is not lobbyists. Its taxpayers and voters. THAT is what drives or motivates elected politicians. Whether its coalitions; a union or other peer groups, the bottom line is WE (not some lobbyist) have to be our own advocates.
We can start a “Go Fund Me” Page. We can get the existing (active) Coalitions together. At on time we had over 30 states involved. I will assist any way I can.
We have a very knowledgeable DC attorney that could assist, but not for free.
Pat Not one of the three California coalitions in that original national 30 still exists (functionally). The one I’m a member of hasn’t done anything (ever) as near as I can tell except have social gatherings up north. Illinois is pretty strong I believe. Texas? They want to be course providers rather than problem solvers. Arizona? Same thing.
Can you name FIVE that are active in fighting for our common issues today? VaCAP is the most visible and consistently active. We have a couple southern states. North Dakota has one but they don’t seem to like to play with others that I can see (going back to fighting false appraiser shortage claims).
Constantine & Cannon seem like nice folks but IF I were seeking lawyers I’d prefer a law firm that didn’t have to settle what should have been a slam-dunk case in Louisiana, just to get paid.
The impression I got (honestly) is that they seemingly milked that case as long as possible and then the client decided settlement was the best way to cut their financial losses. It always seemed like Louisiana settled because they couldn’t justify forever payments to their attorneys for side issues.
For what it’s worth, to the appraisers seeing and feeling this, there are some wheels in motion for things such as this. But we MUST keep the momentum going this time and take action. The ‘awe, I’ve heard this stuff a hundred times over the billion years I’ve been an appraiser, and it’s always fine’ attitude won’t work this time. Getting rid of us for sake of a faster, easier buck despite the catastrophic end result, was already announced in black and white. It is here. NOW.
I have about a dozen Coalition emails right now. We have been in contact over the last 2 weeks. We need new blood and new help.
Glad to do what I can, let me know
Yes. There are already things in the works BY Appraisers. Give it a few weeks please.
I’m president of VaCap and friends with Steve Cannon
Let me know if I can help
I (along with former AGA President Leo Regensburg spoke with Mr. Cannon (or was it Constantine?) and 3 of the partners or associates some time ago about a possible multi-billion class action suit against FNMA for theft & misuse of data.
FOUR lawyers on the phone for over two hours. Lots of positive potential case comments and encouragement…until we resisted seeking fee payment guarantees from AFL-CIO.
Pat, they seemed like very nice people but if the case was so good why would they want a union to fund it for non-members too? Why did they just settle the Louisiana case again?
They may be a great law firm, but for myself, I’d prefer one able to fund their own case, and one with a demonstrated record of not ‘settling’ when the client has done nothing wrong.
I’ll call you tomorrow
Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime. We need a 501c non profit organization dedicated exclusively to appraisal valuation services industry interests. With clear rules and by laws that one must be a licensed appraiser to participate, and every single participating member gets an equal vote in the future trajectory and management of the organization. Then tap into some of the billions of dollars of grant money floating around and let it run on auto pilot when needed. Unlike the TAF, we don’t need legislative authority to create this particular soon to be non profit, but rather just fill out the IRS forms, and there are a myriad of non profit start up helper sort of companies whom could help you accomplish this task for far far less expense than hiring a lobbyist. Just like TAF, ASB, Brookings, all of them, to create a lasting institution you must secure a stable income stream, and grant monies foot that bill. Learn from the pro’s or go home. And then once you’re established as a 501c with a valid purpose, apply for grant monies, everyone is doing it these days, 501c companies continue to provide meaningful ways to both circumvent legislative intent, and to correct malfeasance and abuse from other 501c companies whom have long since abandoned any notion of adhering to the mantras which justified their institutions establishment in the first place. In simple terms, 501c’s can be used for good, or for evil, it depends on who runs them and how susceptible to corruption and outside influences they may be or become. Case in point; The evolved beltway organism otherwise known as Dave Bunton, head of The Appraisal Foundation. Selling the entire appraisal industry down the river, for a kings share. We could run an entire effective 501c program for every appraiser in this country for half of his yearly income.
Go fund me, give me a break, all someone has to do is call you a name like a racist or whatever and the wokesters running that site just steal all the donation funds. How many times must this occur before people finally understand that sites like ‘give send go’ are better options for ethical reasons? Even then, no matter how well you play it or how good things may turn out, those efforts represent singular points in time, singular victories which do not stand the test of time. Why should the counter side be able to hire lobbyists year after year as virtual full time employees, hire them with taxpayer fund grant monies, but we would only hope to go out of pocket for a one time event? Set your sights higher for lasting reform. Learn from the pro’s, their models are effective. Great article, thank you, appreciated. I’m just going to try and scoot the idea a little bit to another direction, because it’s such a good idea in the first place, it really is. Research Keywords; How to create a non profit. Additional Keywords; 501c how to apply for grant money / It’s a lot of work for one person, but if we had a team…
Lets get ‘er DONE!!
Either by conference call or ZOOM
I talked to our Georgia Regional Realtor Head because one of our local Realtors who heard our plight actually brought up the idea of Appraisers becoming an ARM off the NAR’s huge membership, who already have lobbyists. I thought that was a great idea. Many of us are already Realtors by our affiliation as an affiliate member of our local Realtor Boards. It may be a stretch but we all need to work together and not against each other. Realtors may want to get rid of us but Buyers and Sellers do not. The regional guy forwarded my concerns to the person who deals with the lobbyists, about the Appraisal institute throwing us under the bus regarding the whole bias issue. I advised him if the NAR actually helped us they would have many many more members then they already do. I have to follow up with home as I have not heard back. But I will not let it go. I certainly had the support of many of our local Realtors in the Board of which I am a member when I discussed what we are going through. Anyone else out there have a strong bond with their local Board and NAR regional heads? Contact them! See what they say. Because if they want to get rid of us they hurt themselves down the road with a crashed real estate industry. Their clients will not be happy if they had a chance to do something in their clients best interests and they did not!
NAR has had an appraisal section since 1995. Where have you been? Appraisers overwhelmingly did not support the effort then. So NAR lost interest and now, even though the mechanism is still in place, there’s not much going on with it. I’ve been a Realtor for 55 years, was a founding member of the NAR Appraisal Section. There’s so many small appraisal groups throughout the US and they can’t seem to work together in a cohesive way. Too many “turf” wars and too much apathy. I fought the apathy for years and years, I’m about done after 55 years in real estate and 45 years as a full time appraiser. wish you all luck in your efforts.
NAR has the strength do something positive, but appraisers must mend some fences with them. Anti Realtor rhetoric from appraisers has done a lot of damage to the relationship..
And vice versa
I’ve been down this road with them and trust me, they have no interest in supporting their appraiser dues paying membership. Take our money but could care less. We are simply a forced cash cow so we can access MLS.
That attitude is part of the problem. . Have you ever volunteered to serve on a committee with the local association? I have and found them to be accommodating. Appraisers have a love hate relationship with Realtors, most don’t know why. Appraisers consider themselves as a group to be superior to the selling and listing agents. We are only a specialty in the real estate community. I’ve done both. Many real estate agents consider appraisers ex agents who couldn’t sell candy in a schoolyard. So they went into appraisal. Too bad we can’t get along.
While you may believe PJTMCs attitude is part of the problem, you can’t chastise someone for what they feel, because as you know it is only an “Opinion”. Personally, I disagree with almost everything you said and that’s OK. I served on the local organization. I never have considered myself superior to realtors. I can honestly say….the realtors who really care about the process in our area have connected well with me because they trust my opinion. Appraisers in my area are not ex-agents. They are qualified, reputable people. The one thing I semi-agree with is…..too bad we can’t get along with realtors. We can. Get along with the ones who know and respect the mortgage process. The rest are in it for themselves. Just like some appraisers. In fact, as much as we have reputable appraisers, do you think we could promote each other more? My first experience as an appraiser years ago was asking a seasoned appraiser for advice to get started. His answer…..WTF do you want from me? Whether realtor or appraiser, it is a small minority of each that wrecks it for the rest of us.
This was to reply to Appronkeel. Excuse the confusion.
John Daley: Well, you said it better than I did. I agree with you. It seems that over the years, so many appraiser meetings I attended were diatribes against Realtors. I spent ten yerars listing and selling real estate, owned my own firm and had agents working for me. I respect good hard working Realtors and I respect good hard working appraisers. I agree with you that the good agents generally have high regard for good appraisers. They often defer to appraisers to assist them in coming up with a realistic list price, especially for those complex properties. In our area very few appraisers volunteer to serve on Realtor or MLS committees. If they would serve they would find that for the most part their input would be received respectfully. A small group of appraisers have had a susbstantial impact in the design and format of the MLS forms in our area. But we must be pro active and involved in the process.
Back around 2014 I spoke with an outgoing NAR President. He was very open and candid. If he hadn’t been outgoing Im sure we would have achieved more.
I reached out to them several times in 2015. Their only interest was to have single (pending) issue attorneys call me. Beyond those specific long-forgotten issues they had no interest in appraisers.
There are well-known appraisers with solid national reputations still trying to work with them as active members of committees. Their comments and personal efforts have opened my mind again.
It’s already done. The American Guild of Appraisers (AGA) is a legal 501(c)(6), tax-exempt.
Maybe it’s time to stop undermining us by chasing rainbows & diluting our efforts.
Imagine if we had more folks like Pat Turner, David Samnick or Baggins and so many others doing some of the things you describe here. Fundraising via the tax-exempt. Government Affairs analysts (volunteers like everyone else at the Guild). Quick Reaction Teams (for the numerous issues that crop up far more frequently than any small handful of people can deal with); News Letter publishers/editors (its time consming).
Instead of saying “Someone (else) should DO something” it’s time for US collectively to do something with the tools and organizations we already have.
If you want state coalitions, then SUPPORT them. If you want a union, then join the one that already exists and knows what the issues are! Every time I read “we need a union or lobbyist” it tells me the writer hasn’t been paying attention with any degree of regularity.
We have a union. The Coalitions WERE effectively lobbyists. Pick one or the other, but DO something. Stop saying “if only we had magical something or other.”
The majority of appraisers are already realtors. Members of NAR. NAR, for the most part, throws us under the bus, and adds to the narratives out there regarding the appraisal profession. They had yet another letter out just last week, claiming that appraisers are biased. We are trying to do damage control on that. That was the second damaging one in about a month. NAR is part of the problem, and not supporting all of their members. They are being biased against their appraisal members.
For real? Keyword; NAR newsletter appraisal. First hit:
Bummer. / ‘There are different methods to valuing a home, and the value of the home is often not the same as the price or cost.’ Darn, I learned so much about valuation theory, give me a minute to process that.
‘A valuation that does not properly reflect the owner’s equity may require the owner to pay increased fees or inject unneeded additional liquidity into a collateralized loan to meet higher lending requirements.’ Because ‘equity’ is now completely untied from market value. Brilliant! Rule number one in competent unbiased agency; It’s always the buyers responsibility to make up the difference.
Generally, in conjunction with the purchase of a consumers principal dwelling, BPO’s may not be used as the primary basis to determine the value of a real property for the purpose of a loan origination of a residential mortgage loan secured by such property. (unless it’s an appraiser reconciled BPO, where the appraiser does nothing more than accept $25 dollars from Homogeneous Radian to sign off on the BPO, then it’s o.k. because it’s an ARBPO, not just a BPO.)
Rule number one in fight club; Don’t talk about discriminatory lending policies.
Mr Long Time Appraiser, there is a lot of articles to go through there. Provide a link to the two articles you mentioned perhaps? Just the keyword search was quite disappointing in itself. Thanks.
On a side note; Ratio of appraisers whom are also realty agents is wildly varied based on both current licensing requirements and previous ones in the specific state in question. In Colorado when questioned how many appraisers are also realtors, I’ve seen numbers as high as perhaps one in ten, often far less than that. Interestingly enough, many appraisers whom are also realtors never let go of the appraisers license and still pursue that as the primary working responsibility. It’s not because they are earning more, but rather often because they feel this is the service more beneficial to the public. Sales agents whom are not appraisers are a dime a dozen around here.
I doubt that we can rely on Appraisal Organizations/trade associations to assist in the type of lobbying we need. Possibly to corrupted and would have to be by-passed. So it would have to be very grass-roots which would be difficult to organize in an effective way. Also, consider that many appraisers have no clue and don’t care what is occurring outside of their tiny universe. While the call to action is honorable – is it a realistic endeavor against power beyond power? We would be viewed as a mere tiny pushback/hurdle of no long-term consequence.
Stop with the wishful thinking lobby idea, I did that for 5 years. Lobbyist stop legislation, they don’t initiate it. As licensed professionals, just drop your representatives a note with a follow up. If we all did that it would get the message across. NOW, more importantly, what is the message??? It can not sound self serving and sour grapes. It should be about our role in the financial services industry both as to collateral verification and value. Any one else?
Hate to suggest it but unless you are a person of color or LGBTQ in 2023… pretty much NO ONE will give us the time of day with the concerns we have about our profession.
You need to get away from mainstream syndicated fake news media echo chambers, for real. That’s what the central planners want you to think, nothing could be further from the truth. Tide is turning. Don’t be Dave Bunton and just capitulate to whatever the special interests groups are proclaiming in their own self interests. We’re tired of being pushed around by exploitative interests whom want all the fruits of the appraisal industries labor, to give favors to their chronies, and offer appraisers nothing but destruction, ruin, and some contrived idea we should be ashamed of ourselves. We’re the last line of defense stopping predatory interests whom are so close to getting their way over an unsuspecting misled American public. If lenders were held to a similar standard and if one person anywhere within the lending community made one mistake… Talk about a double standard for supposed errors that have yet to be even proved to the public, yet groups like TAF, Brookings, politically biased PAVE members, FNMA staff, are all colluding in unison, sharing their same lobbyists, lawyers, and identical regurgitated talking points to reform the entire valuation services industry, based on what equates to innuendo and hearsay. These people are proving themselves to be untrustworthy. We need to bolster checks and balances systems, not further erode them. Their vision is clouded by greed and personal bias, having no idea what it means to be a non advocate, having spent their entire lives advocating for their own selfish interests.
We’re from the bank, and are here to help. They’ll make sure you borrow just the right amount, at the appropriate frequencies, while increasing their commissions. What could go wrong? This next Bagott article may be his best yet, another home run, can’t wait for this one to post. Relevant to this article topic, absolutely. In my opinion this provides some of the most relevant comprehensive educational content into the inner workings of the valuation industry ever presented in such a brief and understandable format. If you are talking to anyone of importance, make sure to include them Mr Bagotts article strings, or at least this one. History repeats. Thank you.
Fake news. Mainly on Fox I think. Or is that who you are referring to?
Clever political injection Chris. TDR still bothering you? Don Lemon is calling, you are cordially invited to another dinner date, this time with friends! Don’t worry, it will still be a quite personal setting, as you requested.
At $5,000,000 with 20,000 appraisers its only $250./per appraiser. Sounds like a small price to pay to protect our futures. You’d spend that on a good night out with dinner and drinks. We need to be optimistic here and not a bunch of pessimists.
You volunteering to coordinate, organize and chase down a good lobbyist?
If the existing trade groups fail you…. Start your own. 501c organizations grow by around 100,000 every single year, give or take.
Where do I sign up?
Appraisers Union. If we all went on strike, bet that would raise some major concerns for the industry.
Unfortunately, appraisers are their own worst enemies. “Independent” dog eat dog, I’ll under cut my competitor and bring in the volume. Desktops? Sure I’ll do them (bankers only want your signature – for peanuts). Never mind that you paid for schooling, LONG apprenticeship training, E&O insurance and tax, research databases and tax, car maintenance and tax – insurance and tax, continued education and tax, TAXES. Office rental? and tax, home office? mortgage and taxes, delivery fees and taxes. Inflation and now bogus discrimination. With the mind set of individualism and NOT cooperation, we get run over time and time again. When does it end? That is the $64k question.
A risky that would allow everyone that already wants us gone to have more firepower to continue the assault on us.
As we sit here and talk Unions and lobbyists let it be known that there is already a Guild in place under the OPEIU/AFL-CIO called the American Guild of Appraisers.
It’s been around quite some time and not o it have they already built up a good relationship with many in and around Dc, banks and others they have helped many appraisers with state board complaints, payment issues and more.
The problem here is that most cannot put their own personal feelings aside about a union and join. If they would the AGA could have even more power and utilize their contacts and more to help get things done.
State coalitions have been good for their own states but even then most of the issues never get resolved because well, most appraisers would rather piss and moan than actually do anything about it.
Why re create the wheel when there is already one good one in place already? We’ll be abuse again, most appraisers need to have their hands in the cookie jar rather than let others speak and do things for them.
The profession is so divided. You have some organizations that are in it for themselves and their members, some organizations that co mingle with the likes of chief AMC appraisers and look to capitalize on their own agendas. Then you have the appraisers that could care less and will just do whatever an AMC, Fannie or lenders tell them to do. Then there are the ones that just can’t get past their own political beliefs instead of actually putting them aside for the professions greater good.
A lobbyist is not the answer here. The answer is simple… you either decide to put your own crap to the side and grow an organization that can and will do things in the best interest of the independent appraisers or you can continue to piss and moan in all the groups, waste more time and watch the profession die a slow death.
You need to make the choice to take the chance to make change.
Your points are ALL valid and well stated.
I would take up your statement about Coalitions. We were very strong and active prior to the pandemic. We had several in person meetings. We got into Maxine Waters office. We talked to her legislative assistant who actually had been an appraiser trainee. We were physically in attendance at the SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING where the Brookings Institute got their first traction. I walked up to him and asked if they really trusted ZILLOW?
He turned his back on me.
However, I did get my picture taken with Mrs Waters. My friends got a kick out of that. Though I deeply dislike her position on us and told her so. That committee only interviewed the “suits” who know jack crap about boots on the ground. I must say Mrs Waters is a true gentlewoman. Kind and engaging. But still poorly misinformed.
Where have you been since 2012 (& earlier)?
Striking isn’t the answer. You have to have numerical superiority in the profession to make that effective. Activism can take many forms other than strikes. We are not fighting a single entity. Not even if we focused 100% of our efforts against MISMO. They are not dependent on us. Nice sentiment-wrong method.
Promoting groundswell movements like the opinion most of us have about bifurcated horse-shit do.
Go back and read the articles right here in Appraisersblogs about the snake oil hucksters, bifurcated garbage, PACE PRO and a host of other issues.
That is what you are seeing in the appraisal world now. The results of ongoing, continuous fact-finding and exposure. Even C&R fees started as a groundswell. LARGELY carried forward by Pat Turner, VaCAP and many others.
I wonder if one of you can make a statement why the financial services industry is BETTER OFF with appraisers. Keep in mind, in this capacity we are added security to the market which enables the dumb ass lenders to sell their paper and then generate another loan with significant closing costs. In every other respect we are seen as an unnecessary hurdle to the transaction. Dig a little deeper please!
What would the Real Estate market become “without” appraisers? Every Realtor has a dog in the race. Sellers agent or the buyers agent (non fiduciaries) all get paid on a percentage that the home sells for. Bankers know this. Sellers want the most for their property (understandable) buyers want to get into a property for the least money (also understandable) With both buyer and selling agents acting in “THEIR OWN BEST INTEREST” who actually protects the buyer and the lender(s)? The AMC/The AVM the WAG – Wild asz guess? If something goes sideways (always does) who are they going to look to? The loan officer? Selling agent? Buyers agent? In case of tax appeals – who? Demise of a loved one – who values the estate? So, if you don’t think you’re actually providing a professional service and doing “good”; why are you an appraiser?
The financial services industry doesn’t reflect a single or even unified process. There are commission loan officers who generate leads and applications. There are banks or other lenders who profit on loans made through origination fees and follow-up loan servicing (including profitable delinquencies). Let’s not forget the real profit centers-Title Companies and all their monopolistic tentacles.
Then there is FNMA who routinely defrauds both banks and investors. (more on this later this week). Of course, there are RE Brokers, sales licensees, sellers and buyers who have interests as well.
With all these frequently competing interests, it was only the appraiser who could (or should) be able to be relied upon to objectively analyze the property involved, and present a fair and honest of its apparent value in a given market.
Appraiser’s will not congregate on any one thing. Just complain and move on. Wont unionize. Won’t work together to establish reasonable and customary fees because there is always that dick on the crowd that will always do it cheaper. While I agree there needs to be several lobbyist buying back what NAR, the banks and AMC’s have taken from us, but your talking about hundreds of millions of dollars in campaign financing, lobbying fee’s directly to each member of house or senate, etc. Just ain’t gonna happen, sorry. I would love for it to take place, but the only way that this is going to work is if there is another collapse in financial sector, specifically housing and it being specifically related to AVM’s, the use of hybrid, bifurcated appraisals and BPO’s.
I will do it-I will spend all my time making it happen. But while I do it-I need a living wage. Not a NRA CEO wage, not a NAR CEO wage, a living wage.
One where I can focus on working instead of earning.
I am really good at connections and getting things done.
I am serious.
But I wont do it for free.
I will create and run the 501c3 and make all the connections.
How many appraisers are willing to contribute.
30 commenters in a random blog post?
or every single appraiser in the country (~40-78,000-the stats are ambiguous(2.6% decrease/year)who HAS to be willing to participate by voting in all local and national elections, has to be willing to make 1 phone call to a legislator per year, and has to contribute financially.
look at teacher union, teamsters, AFL/CIO, and any other organization.
you HAVE to participate or its 100% NOT WORTH IT AND WONT WORK.
I dont know how to directly connect with anyone who comments.
This is a $150,000/year+ position with the non-profit paying travel expenses as needed.
I agree with you but would suggest that to do this correctly, you cannot do it alone. An operations budget needs to be developed to include an assistant, accountant, advertising and office supplies, promo materials, perhaps even office/lease expenses. I am in “young” in the Appraisal World but 40+ years experienced in national and local non-profit. I do recommend that it not be mandatory. Prove true value (training / conferences / become our own lobby / voice to government) and the membership will build itself.
1st lesson. A 501(c)(3) isn’t the correct tax-exempt vehicle for such an organization. Try 501(c)(6). Although one already exists, appraisers love to reinvent the wheel. Go for it.
2nd lesson. Others are already doing what they can for free. Taking huge financial hits to personal income in the process. Frankly, most of us would LOVE to be replaced.
Interesting that you cite AFL/CIO. The union that already exists for appraisers is AGA, #44, OPEIU, AFL-CIO. At the AGA level its 100% volunteers. At the OPEIU level, Mr. Rich Lannigan is reasonably (fairly) well-paid and very supportive parent union President but he expects appraisers to make reasonable efforts on their own behalf.
They (OPEIU) proved a willingness to commit for us (& ASA, and TAF) back in 2015 when THEY killed off AB 624 after it had already been passed and signed by the Governor. They did that with two phone calls. One with us to find out what the concerns were, and a second to the California Labor Coalition. The following week bill was buried in Appropriations Committee where it languished until it died (expired unfunded). Leo Regensberg’s union background, and Jan Bellas outstanding relationship with OPEIU carried that one through.
They also gave us their organizational expertise (& a New York Organizing expert) back in 2018 when we rewrote our Articles of Affiliation with OPEIU; drafted new Bylaws, sought our tax-exempt status, and trademarked both the American Guild of Appraisers and its abbreviation AGA. I started that process (& wrote most of the draft documents). Jan Bellas did the hard work, and Mark Skapinetz carried it over the finish line for us in 2019.
Most appraisal organizations’ time is spent dealing with member issues. We have helped several hundred people defend themselves against false state claims, and phony HUD claims.
We are stretched thin. Yes. we could certainly use a few thousand more of those 60,000 to 70,000 appraisers still in the business. People also willing to work as unpaid volunteers.
Excellent Mr Ford, impressive.
Welcome to the Appraiser Selection by Lender page where you may request a report of the number and percentages of appraisals completed by minority, nonminority, male, and female in the most recent reporting period.
really? the number of appraisals by racist criteria?
Dude, is this new material, or old? Just checked my bookmark, apparently that’s been around for quite some time. Wonder if they have something similar for lenders and realty agents? I recall having bookmarked that as a marketing lead tool to chase down lenders doing FHA’s in my state, and also look at their origination volume.
Thank you. Can only be accessed by lenders apparently. Pvt clb-like FNMAs CU access. Anyway, I just sent an email to admin their requesting access. Thanks for info.
Did I miss something? Do any of you belong to the AGA?
American Gastroenterological Association?? No
American Guild of Appraisers, #44, OPEIU, AFL-CIO. Are you a member SPENCER?
Kim, of course, he isn’t! Read follow on comments of his.
This is the kind of ignorance that limits appraisers from getting as much done as we otherwise might. Sheer ignorance of whats been going on for well over 10 years.
We’d need five full-time appraisers just to maintain contact in all the FB appraisal groups and AB.
I used to post and write here much more than I do in 100% Appraisers Group (4,000+ appraisers-closed appraiser group), but out of sight, out of mind. Diana Nitko has been our longest supporter here.. Baggs is supportive in his own way too.
Im very pleased to see you posting here.
Thanks. Do what I can, in still waters. Thinking of getting that job at in and out burger and doubling my effective wage. Pulling the kids out of public school and going homeschool was a real game changer. No other choice, we’re in a woke district, a woke state, they’ve ruined public education in the state of Colorado. Thankfully despite how incredibly poorly managed this appraisal industry has become (via the government incompetence), it still allows me independence to put the childrens best interests first.
Sure, those other sites function better, may have more detailed information and more on topic on focus appeals. Just missing one essential ingredient; Bot crawlers and internet exposure. When you search issues, appraisers blogs gets top hits in search engines. Show me that effect with any other location, where complete strangers and outsiders can read every comment without needing a login, I’ll post there too. Appraisers forum used to offer that but the site owner decried the high monthly traffic bills for all the bot crawlers. And when that site was getting a lot of amc and their trade group traffic, head surfer just put half the content behind a log in wall, cut off the bot traffic, and regained a positive financial position to keep the site running. Personally I still maintain the position that the amc industry somehow pressured him to stop with the excess negative exposure, and limiting open web traffic exposure was his solution. AF went dark just about the same time Appraisal Advisor bit the dust, at the time the two biggest critics of the amc industry.
Where as the owner here makes personal sacrifices and runs this full speed in terms of technical capability and broad internet traffic exposure. The difference between buying into a ready made platform vs hosting with your own servers. An important and often overlooked element of drumming up public trust and more public awareness in the modern age; Volume of web traffic and allowances for bot crawlers to access sites, index data, elevate that result, to the point of making first and second page google result hits, that sort of thing. Sometimes I think the site owner pays to promote stories on other platforms too, not sure how that works, I just access this from a regular firefox browser without needing a login. That’s why I stick it out here, and I’ve grown kind of endeared to the site manager, she really works hard to keep this going. Those of us still working to save this industry are one man lobbyists to ourselves. That is not something one has to pay for.
At what point would it perhaps be a good idea to apply for government grants ourselves, to attain the lawyers, pay these exorbitant fees? All these other sectors, other industries, there is all this help where people get subsidies and allowances to pursue higher education, membership, etc. Can the appraisers group tap into this somehow? They’re giving grant money away for the most ridiculous things, this effort would seem to be more worthwhile. People have sort of nutty ideas about how much appraisers earn. Your ‘sacrifice for volunteering’ figure is more than many of us earn working overtime. There is nothing left to sacrifice, nothing left to share. Place the appraisal profession in the below ‘return on investment’ chart comparative to college. Literally at the bottom.
As I stated above, there are appraisers with things in the works. Give it some time.
We are out of time and have been since Dodd Frank didn’t do anything and the lobbyist have already successfully rolled back some regulations and we appear to be loosing at every turn. This include appraiser’s settling cases they should have one in defamation. The legal groups have been given a free hunting license for our E&O.
At least someone is finally stepping up and taking action. Are you? What actions have you taken? How have you spoken out? Complaining isn’t helping,
I actually tried pitching unionizing the nation for appraiser and I got pissed on. What did you do again, paid dues for what representation in the house and senate? Don’t be to full of pride.
You know what happens when you assume. I am glad you tried pitching it, sadly appraisers are impossible to get on the same page-no matter the topic. There are still a lot of steps that can be taken, including educating agents and lenders. Baby steps can lead down the yellow brick road.
Yep done that too. Filed several complaint to NAR, CFPB, FDIC and state boards. They don’t or won’t listen until it become high crimes and will garner a fat fee.
I have met with, called and communicated with my state and fed congricritters for years.
I will step up and create, maintain and organize.
I will join all appraisal organizations together that are member driven to create a single cohesive appraiser unit.
I cant do it without cooperation.
I wont do it without reasonable and customary compensation.
My daughter wants to be an appraiser, i stopped encouraging her last year.
Well big Tex, that’s where the grant money comes in, after the 501c is formed. That is the source of income, it comes after the fact not before. They can happen near simultaneously but are separate actions. Do you think anyone here has $150k to spare? Super affordable compared to Dave Buntons $750k+ a year compensatory schedule though. And he gets free milk and cookies at Brookings, perks and stuff. I still have a dream of being a 501c lawn mowing company, capture that guaranteed income to help the public at large enjoy general assistance programs. I could team up with meals on wheels, housing for the homeless, habitat for humanity, national parks and rec, down to local municipalities, the possibilities are really endless. That’s how the 501c’s are functioning with increasing frequency, the ready availability of grant monies has politicians searching for places to spend it. Did you hear the one about the Indian dude whom gamed New Jersey into accepting his one man show as a sister city entity, which was purely made up? Truth is stranger than fiction in a sea of inadequate oversight and excessive taxation fund spending. They’re getting grant money to convince your little boy that he’s actually a girl. They’re giving it away without a second thought, have been for a long time. Something along the lines of stability in lending might not be as in vogue at the moment, but still could find success with a non partisan position and more broadly applicable appeal. The people in charge of approving 501c’s just rubber stamp them these days. QE straight busted out of real estate, where they had hoped to contain it for a higher tax base to create some measure of debt recapture.
Maybe one of the high annual dues organizations is looking to add more paid staff. Maybe even TAF.
The appraisal union (AGA) leaders and all staff are unpaid volunteers. Oddly enough back in 2014 and 2015 here, the criticism was that union leaders are only interested in high salaries off member dues.
For our part, we are primarily interested in individuals so committed as to be willing (and able) to donate their time as we all do. Its ranges from 20 to 50 hours a week on top of our own appraisal jobs.
The negative impact on your personal income could easily be $50,000 to $80,000 a year.
I am not sure “giving it some time” is the right action. EVERYONE needs to get busy. When we all have ideas, other groups can come together to formulate a plan that works best for all. Monies spent will come together for a louder voice.
American Guild of Appraisers #44, OPEIU, AFL-CIO. I’m a member. ARE YOU?
NO, that webpage does no look like it has been updated since the 90’s however I did see the article from 2018. They seem very active for it’s members.
Valid point Spencer. The webpage is obsolete. No argument. We’re ok with the truth, even when it makes us appear negative. (Our web host was contacted hours ago. It will be addressed asap. Please note that AB has already changed our ad to the left as well. Apparently, some readers were unaware that AGA is actually a union. That is our fault. I can take the blame for that. )
Those who follow us however are fully aware that we are unpaid volunteers, and extremely active in dealing with our member’s individual issues when they are falsely attacked.
If you are a verifiably independent appraiser, you could join the 100%Appraisers Facebook group and see where a lot of our efforts have been focused. Though you’d have to do one of two things first:
1. Use your own name; or
2. Obtain a valid and current real estate appraisers license
alternatively, you can go through old AB articles right here going back to around 2012 when we were first fighting for C&R fees.
OR you can continue standing on the sidelines not actually doing anything aside from criticizing those who are. We all have pretty thick skins. If you are an appraiser, we’d love to welcome you. If not, that’s ok too.
I think and I am disappointed to think that my peers to not understand their true role in the financial services industry!! Nobody cares primarily with value and you are NOT doing any service to buyers or sellers, put quite directly, we are providing an independent conformation of the collateral (no axe to grind) and a value range confirmation so the financial services industry can sell mortgages to investors. Am I the only one that gets this?????
David you are very confused or narrowly focused. FNMA and FreddieMac like to think that, but long before they successfully lobbied TAF to whore itself out to promote their interests, we had fiduciary obligations to all parties involved.
FNMA is the last one actually concerned with real values. If they were they would cease knowingly committing fraud against the banks who are their customers, and the investors who are their ostensible clients.
FRTs are only part of the reason appraisals are ordered. Frankly, half of us would survive even without the secondary market.
Perceived “service” over integrity has long been the main underlying problem affecting our profession’s interaction with GSEs and their puppets.
He does not understand the FDIC insurability aspect of appraisers performing valuations for GSE’s. ‘True role in the financial services industry’. Um…. QM or non QM lending? There is a difference. Once people have embraced the unconstitutional positions that we are in service to government, rather than government being in service to us, it’s difficult to bring them back.
Those self appointed sycophants, speculating with the breadstuffs of the public, keeping the winnings on the upside, charging the losses back to the bank on the downside, which of course is charged to the public via the insurance tie ins. Appointing themselves titles of nobility, changing the game with expost facto laws whenever it is convenient to break the obligations of contracts. Now with writ of attainders on the entire appraisal community. Those writs of course are sanctioned by the newly founded confederation of the appraisal management industry kings and the for sale gse representatives. Bribery, it’s how things get done.
People whom do not know history are always condemned to repeat it. Pop quiz for people whom buy into the service of the financial industry argument; Why and how did the government become involved in lending in the first place which led to the formation of the FDIC and GSE enterprises?
Post this again I suppose. Article 1 Section X. Everything we need to correct what’s wrong with every single institution in this country, lies in these simple constitutionally compliant guidelines.
Article I Legislative Branch / Section 10 Powers Denied States / Clause 1 Proscribed Powers
No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
I’m enjoying this post. What am I enjoying? The fact that here we are complaining to one another instead of actually taking action. Union! No union! Lobbying! FAT CHANCE?
This is why we are where we are today. Too many personal thoughts vs thoughts that would benefit the profession.
Listen to your podcasts. Listen to the forums. Listen to everyone and still not do a thing yourself. SMH.
I’ve been a member of AGA for a while. Now acting president and we can only do so much. We do all we can for our members and based upon the issues. we have helped more appraisers than other organizations. Btw. Just saw the comment on the website. If that’s your main focus… ok.
At the end of the day you can either do something to make changes and more or sit here and complain. You can be a part of something. Not just join and expect miracles BUT… Be a part of it and do things. Or just continue down this path.
AGA is for the independent appraiser. Yes we are under the umbrella of the OPEIU/AFL-CIO, however we act on our own and have other support systems.
Think of it this way. The more members we have, the more we can do, the more we can offer and the more we get in front of people. I have myself been trying to get union health care for our members and will continue to do so but we need more support.
Anyhow. Feel free to reach out to me anytime if you want to discuss more.
The website is not my main focus, but it is a visual representation of the work being done. If there aren’t any recent updates, red flags pop up that it has been abandoned. If things were humming along and there weren’t a hundred topics to discuss in the industry I would understand. Things aren’t humming along and things aren’t fine, with no clear representation on recent conversations on the site. It’s not a personal dog, but an observation. I didn’t see anything of interest to make me stay, to make think someone actually cared about current events with recent interviews, complaints that have been recently filed, etc. If there isn’t anything of interest on the site, why would anyone think to pays dues to this organization that does not appear to active?
Mark is it possible for your group to apply for some grant monies to really get some substantial advocacy going, tap into the upper level resources of your parent unions, let them know what dire straights this industry is really in? We can’t all go out of pocket, because even if we tried, it would still not be enough to counter the brookings, TAF, ASB, and other myriad of alphabet soup organizations existing privileges they’ve gained by having the grant monies already. Most of what is coming out of this industry is directed against the best interests of the public interest, like the idealist appraisers feeding into the PAREA programs, amc’s and such. This whole thing is not organic, even though they try to frame it in a certain idealistic light. Bagott was right; it’s a set up by moneyed interests, big lenders, fintechs, to corner the market and launch off an even more exploitative system for mortgage markets and residential housing management in general.
They need human appraisers out of the way first to accomplish their goals. Predators typically require direct access without possible interference from others. FNMA provides sweetheart deals and first access to the most exploitative big corporations known to the entire planet. TAF plays along like the friendly co sponsor. How on earth can the Brookings people even be involved with TAF, unless they too have been ignorant of TAF’s other relations to the mortgage market managers? It’s a ship of fools sailing blind with no captain.
Talk to me about forming equivalent representation elbow to elbow with the groups actively dismantling the appraisal industry. That’s what I’m on about; equal representation. It’s mind mindbogglingly complicated but in the end has boiled down to institutionalized taxation without representation, without any meaningful oversight applied. Bypassing or eliminating valid checks and balances systems. They protect their own while amplifying the exploitation. They all live in glorious mansions enjoying seven figure compensation, while decrying the supposed lack of justice and fairness in American housing systems.
One of the reasons I refocused myself toward 100%Appraisers Group Mark. 4,000+ appraisers only, with a high degree of intellectual honesty in most posts or discussions. You really did a great job with that one.
Topics get hijacked here too often. Arguments covered 5 and 10 years ago are revitalized as if this is the first time they’ve ever been brought up. At least we don’t see REVAA posts in here anymore. Making them become near invisible is another success you had out of your Coester lawsuit.
Total hot air. You as an individual are NOT important, as a professional you have an important role to play; and, it ain’t by seeking a Union!
And this right here is the reason nothing can be done. Ego. Well done proving the points.
David, we get it. But should appraisers bear the brunt of all criticism because these hooligans mismanaged their own systems so bad? Are checks and balances systems suddenly irrelevant? Is the GSE’s mantra which justified it’s federal presence in the first place somehow now irrelevant? Non advocacy is so rare these days. If the taxpayers are to back the GSE’s every participating group should have a voice and say. Appraisers are not mere servants of the financial industry.
Ron Paul in the House Financial Services Committee, September 10, 2003
What is it called when politicians make the same mistake, over and over again? Institutional memory? Somehow these immoral principals of using taxpayer money to transfer wealth to powerful corporations, and away from the American citizens has become; ‘equity’? That’s what Brookings and TAF apparently want you to believe. Their prescribed solution; it must be the appraisers whom are immoral and deserve reprimands. Perfory review indicates most appraisers are white, so it must be racism, what else could it be? It could never be incompetence because the government can do no wrong. Who’s still buying this? I mean talk about low information voters, Dave Bunton is the new poster boy, Andre Perry and Marsha Fudge on either side.
(related additional) As if nobody can see it coming…
‘One of the major government privileges granted to GSEs is a line of credit with the United States Treasury. According to some estimates, the line of credit may be worth over $2 billion. This explicit promise by the Treasury to bail out GSEs in times of economic difficulty helps the GSEs attract investors who are willing to settle for lower yields than they would demand in the absence of the subsidy. Thus, the line of credit distorts the allocation of capital. More importantly, the line of credit is a promise on behalf of the government to engage in a huge unconstitutional and immoral income transfer from working Americans to holders of GSE debt.’ (bear in mind this was 20 years ago)
I miss Ron on the floor. We still watch his wise advisement every weeknight on The Liberty Report channel on ytb. The only one to never accept lobbyist money. Don’t steal, the government hates competition. What’s missing from these debates is the recognition how immoral the government and these agencies are currently behaving.
6 hours, 16 minutes, hour long address by Mr Paul. I could not find the video address to the house services committee but this is still good, how we used to talk 20 years ago. When corruption was present, but had not taken nearly as strong of a hold on our society. The importance of the non intervention policy, to avoid entangling alliances.
Great comments. On a side note, but completely related to showing why appraisers are needed, note the following. A property I appraised was listed for $888,000, was under contract for $877,150, and I appraised it for $853,000. After an absolutely horrible attempt to get a change by way of a ROV, the contract price was reduced to my appraised value. Of note, either the agent listed the price per Zillow ($888,000), and or Zillow changed its estimate after the property was listed. Either way, that price was garbage.
Although in part the appraisal forms we use indicate that market value assumes “both parties are well informed or well advised”, what happens when they are not? In this case, the listing agent appears to have relied on a garbage AVM value, and the buyer is represented by an agent who pulls comps from 2 miles away in an attempt to change the appraised value by way of a ROV.
In the above scenario, the appraisal system worked, and the borrower won by not overpaying by $24,150. Fast forward to the future, and the robots will approve the loan in less than 24 hours and nobody will be the wiser.
As I’ve said numerous times over the years, based on like above situations, for every dollar I’ve been paid for an appraisal, I’ve saved the average borrower $10.
To the powers that be, the truth is coming.
Seek the truth.
Thank you Baggins! We are stumbling and tripping to understand our role rather than our ego. Do your job, define your market search other than by #, and take accurate pictures. If you can do that you probably can remain a participant in the financial services industry. Think about it PLEASE, if you are an investor do you want a bogus (fannie) portfolio. F…… NO!
Appraisers whom feel their duty is to the lender, perhaps are not well versed on the non advocate principal. The reason why legislation required lenders use appraisers, was to install a checks and balances system, as various iterations of updated regulatory structure has been formed around the need to better regulate lending agencies, and the harm they cause to the general public and financial systems with aggressive and often irresponsible lending activities. Put the ball back in the lenders court and suddenly all past and future wrong doings are the fault of the appraiser, the very position which was set in place to hold the lenders in check. Automate the human appraiser away, what cold go wrong?
Bill….. we have no fiduciary with the buyer and since when are you soooooooo good that you can get it within 5% – give me a break -what are trying to peddle!!!!
I think you misinformed David! Considering the appraised value was determined independent of the purchase price, its not me being within 5% of them, but rather they were within 5% of me. On a side note David, have you ever used the term “low appraisal”? Considering the appraisal produces a single final number that is neither high or low but only gets interpreted as such when other parties add their interests, I sure hope not?
Regarding, “what am I trying to peddle”, how about the fact the system was allowed to work versus what others want the system to be in the near future (a fast rubber stamp of approval).
Speaking of “peddling” I think the coach has a buy one VHS tape and get a 2nd one free sale going on. Check it out as it sounds like you might be amongst friends.
Lastly, considered I received a thank you call from the borrower, if they call back again I will be sure and tell them I had no fiduciary duty to save them $24,000 dollars.
I wish you well David.
Seek the truth.
FALSE FLAG – we only look to lenders for the FEE, so they can legitably peddle their paper to responsible positive motivated investors so they can get a better return on their investment than 10 yr treasury bills. NOBODY cares anything about YOU, they respect your profession which allows them to buy mortgage back securities.That is what Dodd Frank was about. Try try to look at it from your ultimate client – the buyer of the portfolios. Why is that soooooo difficult to understand?
Question. If the buyer ordered their own appraisal, apart from the lender. Would the appraiser still have an obligation to hit the purchase price, for subsequent saleability of the loan product? Or would you come in with a different value opinion? If the buyer tried to sell the day after the purchase, and another appraiser told them the fair market value was so far below what their lender order appraisal stated, whom would be correct? Which ‘profession’ are you talking about? You’re reading like a front end commission based interest whom mistakes the appraisers ethical obligations to that of appeasing the lenders interests; aka advocacy.
Nope, nothing about portfolio lending in there. If a mortgage originator is forced to sell to the portfolio lender, to recover capital availability for example, presuming they’ve exhausted their ability to loan more, even under a fractional reserves requirement, then you’ve got lender pressure. This is common, (alongside other commission based interests). However, that’s when things get tricky, as the portfolio lender does not want any compelled value, but rather wants true market value, as defined by the the market conditions and state of the home as of the effective date, which is why there is always a rush to originate then offload the total lending package so the data related to saleability is still contemporary. It’s the same story over and over again, the originators want one thing, the portfolio managers want another (which would be similar to a client which holds loans in house.) And when appraisers in their fever for more assignment requests begins to advocate for the originator, that’s when entire portfolios may become polluted and subsequently get downgraded and passed to different servicers. They pick non performers out and trade them like baseball cards. The borrower whom was not performing ends up being serviced by a company like Ocwen instead of the credit union or boutique lender whom originated the loan. And the appraiser whom thought their duty was to the originator ends up on do not use lists which propogate from porfolio managers down (basically a career ending sentence for ML work), paying out civil fines, paying higher insurance rates, as his EO coverage becomes applicable due to the departure from FMV development. They’ll scan entire portfolio bundles for that appraisers name and review everything they’ve ever done all at once. FNMA CU database has long since been set in place to help them automate this process.
Learning about the different processes which are applicable to entirely different client types under different regulatory structures is helpful for a better understanding of what an appraiser is supposed to do, and what an appraiser is not supposed to do. Because hypothetically, market value is always market value regardless of who your client is.
Also, spelling cat is going to issue you additional warnings if you don’t please kindly clean it up. Emphasis on please.
The appraiser never has an “obligation” to hit the sale price. What appraiser are you referring to please? The one that should be working SOMEWHERE ELSE because they are committing fraud and an embarrassment to everyone else who does this job? What are you talking about?
Julie, please go back and read Mr Davids statements. I was posing a question against his presumptions, that he believes it is the appraisers responsibility to make deals work for lenders. The question was posed in context with other statements he had made. Make sure to read some of these posts and reference materials completely before responding. The read one paragraph thing, ignore the rest, and run with a presumption; not quite enough.
Why do posters so commonly feel the need to engage in this capitalization routine just to get some simple emphasis on such brief statements? (spelling cat screeches, someone in the distance, echos through dark alleys. Faint wisps of a foreboding violin is barely audible.)
You are conflicted and obviously need to take a USPAP course, we all know and you should, that we have ONE client. Your client is the lender and the lender assigns. That is the peddle I am talking about. Stand down from your ego and support the profession.
David you’re begging for a lawsuit. The lender and their “assigns”? You allow the lender “assigns”? That sir opens your appraisal up to anyone that comes in possession of it. The lender can “yeah they, he, she, another lender are my assigns”. You need to get much better at defining your client.
PLease….,. in the last 2 years, I might have been confronted with a buyer as client once. Come on you can’t have it both ways and your hypothetical is a no income ego head trip! Needless say, USPAP does not allow you that conflict and you should no better! you are not part of the solution!
Please keep at it, I am interested to learn more from the pros. Care to clarify the proper avenue to the market value approach with a mortgage lending client in a sales situation?
The client situation at hand is irrelevant. You are either advocating or you are not.
(Spelling cat just howled in the distance, under a dimly lit moon, fog obscuring.)
You know what I love about all these posts. They serve no purpose. We are talking to ourselves and to the Ghost we think is watching and reading. No one cares about posts. At least smart people. None of it resolves anything. Do you want to have a real discussion to get SHIT done. Then let us all shut up and do it. We all constantly spew this stuff over and over again. Its exhausting.
Let’s DO THIS! We are not here to play the blame game and we are not looking backwards… we are moving and looking forwards from where we stand TODAY!
Stand tall. Heads up. Let’s go. ?????
To Julie. Yes DO THIS. In my world I need get it done people. What do you propose?
First… go Pat Turner! I love what you all did! Can you invite me next time? Did tell you I am (have been for a long time actually) suing my lenders and servicers for predatory lending and mortgage fraud and having a blast? :0) (Not relevant to this though.)
We all need to UNITE, and we must stop attacking one another. This endless “one-upping” is not getting us anywhere. We are on the same side. Let’s try acting like it and leaving our egos at the door (wherever that door may be.) I would like to set up a zoom meeting to start…and then we can schedule a live one to happen really soon.
Who started all of this? It is not my intention to step on anyone’s feet or trample over anyone and take control, I only want to help, and I barely have time to eat or sleep these days, but if we do not get started RIGHT NOW, really yesterday, because we are so late to the party, we may as well just lay down and give up! And I don’t quit or give up, so let’s get going!
This happened before. Where do you think USPAP even came from? Not exactly the same but the “Ad-Hoc” group that wrote USPAP. Who were they? Does anyone know?
This market is about to crash harder than 2008, so whatever these yahoo’s think they’re doing, they’re not anyway. They should be thinking about where they’ll be working next. If we really want to “fix” this problem, long term we should be looking to reinstate the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933 as a starting point, but all of this goes so much deeper than this.
We need to get organized, and fast. No joke. Once we are, we can discuss everything and break ourselves apart into groups and committees, and take some action and get started but if we don’t stop the infighting among ourselves and just START, we are toast.
There are so many great people here. Everyone wants to do great things and everyone, including myself is scared. We should be scared. The entire country has lost its mind. Up is down and down is up. Wrong is right. We must fight, now.
For the first time we should be scared, and we need to organize but not on here, NOT PUBLICLY. The world should not be watching everything we are doing.
I love appraising. I love appraisers. I can help and I want to. We all have the ability to do something about this. We are intelligent, professional hardworking people. Those responsible for what is happening are not. You reap what you sow.
I need to go to sleep. Good night, everyone! Sweet dreams. Only positive thoughts and comments! Smile!
I love what you are doing AND it is relevant
Once it is gone, it is out of my control – AND dear friend read what you say on your FHA work, if you have any!
“The appraiser has not identified any purchaser, borrower or seller as an intended user of this appraisal, and no such party should use or rely on this appraisal for any purpose. Such parties are advised to obtain an appraisal from an appraiser of their own choosing if they require an appraisal for their own use. Any reference to or use of this appraisal report by a purchaser, borrower or seller for their own purposes, including without limitation for the purposes of a property purchase decision or an appraisal contingency in a purchase agreement, is at such party’s own risk and is not intended or authorized by the appraiser.”
That tired old line? Sort of goes against lenders own guidelines. Q46.
Also, you’re doing it wrong. The appraiser can not write away the applicability of certifications with additional language. Specifically because if the report goes to FNMA, the appraiser, just like the lender, is required to follow guidelines. The borrowers are allowed to rely on the appraisal report. You can’t write that away if the destination is FNMA, HUD is similar.
‘The appraiser’s certification #23 is an acknowledgment by the appraiser that certain parties to a mortgage finance transaction that are not the lender/client and/or intended user may rely on the appraisal report. This certification clarifies that such other parties include the borrower, another lender at the request of the borrower, the mortgagee or its successors and assigns, mortgage insurers, government-sponsored enterprises, and other secondary market participants.’
So the focus instead turns to clarifying the appraiser does not indemnify or guarantee. Because such client assigns and intended users language is already clarified by FNMA. In fact they provide the exact language an appraiser should user further in the document, although an appraiser can add to that, so long as they don’t try to redefine the existing minimum, which includes the borrowers and lender assigns. So basically you can’t really control ML reports, such limiting user disclosure is going to be limited basically to clients whom are not sending to FNMA, HUD, VA, and freddie, although I’m not quite as sure of their exact guidelines as FNMA. They all copy each other so the generality of the expectations are usually more similar than not. Spencer has a part of that in his.
Prohibited appraisal practices.
The policy makers whom think a one size fits all automatic valuation certification program is going to be sufficient, or presume the tech people programming them will be well versed in these guidelines, need to be locked up in padded rooms. Appraisers should just face facts that if they are providing appraisals for GSE work, the borrower is in the loop.
Borrower are not allowed to rely on the report. The report is not for them and they are not an intended user of the report. We can and are highly encouraged to write additional certifications in the report. Just because we have the scope of work to be on a 1004 form does not mean we can’t make modification when necessary to comply with USPAP and/or our E&O insurance. If you don’t, you leave yourself open to suite and loosing.
This is the comments an appraiser and real estate attorney highly recommends we have in our reports, PEROID:
The certifications contained within this appraisal report were developed by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, not by this appraiser, specifically Certification #21 and #23.This appraisal was developed for no one else beside the specific client identified in the report and any intended user(s) also identified in the report. The intended use is for the client and intended users named in this report and is not be to used, or relied upon by anyone else for any purpose (this includes home insurance and secondary mortgage markets and purchasers). A party receiving a report copy from the client does not, as a consequence, become a party to the appraiser-client relationship. As such, this appraiser is not bound to answer any questions regarding the assignment in keeping with USPAP Ethic’s, Reporting and Communication Rules. PLEASE ALSO SEE NON-INTENDED USERS statements below.
This appraiser has also noted, specifically in regards to certification 12 contained in this report, FNME has compiled large amounts of local data that this, nor any other appraiser has access to for use, nor for verification purposes. This appraiser does have access to the local listing services of RMLS and NWMLS. All other information that has been gathered through the UAD system and fed back to the lending community through the Collateral Underwriting (CU) can not be accounted for due to the lack of any appraiser’s access for confirmation of information gathered therein. New information provided by FNME’s proprietary Collateral Underwriting (CU) could effect the opinion of this appraiser’s final market value as long as it can be verified by this appraiser. Finally, Appraiser’s Certification #19 clearly states this appraiser can not be held responsible and will not take responsibility for any changes that have been forced into the appraisal assignment AFTER the report has been signed, certified and delivered to the lender-client. It is the lender-clients responsibility to verify the report that is in use for their purposes, is the original report and/or a report that has been altered ONLY by the assigned appraiser themselves. The use of CU to substitute information regarding the subject, or comparables used in this report that is unverified by this appraiser is a violation of USPAP and law.
Where to begin? Who’s your legal advisor again?
‘New information provided by FNMA’s proprietary Collateral Underwriting (CU) could effect the opinion of this appraiser’s final market value as long as it can be verified by this appraiser.’
I’m not sure advising appraisers that their MV opinion is subject to change, which their opinion is based upon broadly disseminated readily available local market data, if there happens to be conditions or different data only observable in the CU system data, to which the appraiser does not have access. This is not an effective legal defense for not having fulfilled the prerequisite requirements for having come about credible assignment results in the first place. Legal concepts 101; you can’t write away standard requirement protocols, it does not stand up under normal scrutiny. Furthermore, the notion that CU data would reflect anything other than your own competent market research is countered with the argument someone else must have input erroneous data. Your acceptably sufficient workfile data regarding market research and market data conclusions is supposed to be everything you need. Otherwise you are proposing that if someone else entered market research or property data into an appraisal which landed in the CU system, which contradicted your market research data or property data conclusions, that your conclusions which are supposed to be credible as is, are subject to change? Like what, you’re not sure if you are doing it right in the first place and would defer to data deferential in concealed obscured data systems? Even when you have no access to these proprietary systems data?
It’s taken for granted and is a fact that the quality control of data validation and data qualification within the CU system is absolutely beyond your effective ability to control. I’m having a short circuit moment, this quasi legalese language reads as rather illogical to me. Perhaps I’m just quirky with my old fashioned beliefs that when I am presenting myself as a working professional, that you can rely on me to be honest, trust worthy, and provide market valuation opinions to the best of my ability. If you hold yourself to a blind standard set by other people of unknown competence, why? You might as well be an AVM provider from a tech company, hidden behind a veil of proprietary algorithms and obscurity yourself. The value of the human appraiser is we can competently and transparently, assimilate complex data, qualify the appropriate necessary data, and reconcile credible conclusions. It’s a moving target, competency in such a complex system, something computerized models are yet so far incapable of recreating.
Some of the other language is interesting, but rather unnecessary. Focus on no promise of guarantee, not implying or offering any indemnity, limited service, defined scope of work, additional working efforts subject to full billable rates, only voluntary engagement is inferred. Remember; best of ability; if anyone involved is not in agreement or acceptably confident in report conclusions, and wants a second opinion, they are encouraged to get one. Best of ability is a more professional approach than you should not rely on me. Imagine a street corner food vendor with a big sign that says; this food can not be verified as being edible and the purveyor shall not be held liable if you get food poisoning, with a big neon open sign and menu pricing schedule immediately next to the disclaimer. Who’s actually buying the validity of the product, other than the purveyor himself at that point? Holding customers hostage for your service is different from being worthy to offer competent service.
Borrowers are allowed to rely on the report. It’s why they are required by law to receive a copy of the report. Hell yes as a buyer I read the appraisal and take it’s conclusions into consideration. It is the lender whom is the defined client, by imperial decree. People used to be able to order their own appraisals from the appraiser they felt was most competent. We have to work within the confines of the legislative guidance at hand.
The lender has a responsibility to the borrower, and the appraisal is for the lender for mortgage lending purposes, for the borrower. Without the borrower there would be no reason for the appraisal request to substantiate collateralize value. Without the GSE’s, the borrower would not be dealing with lenders under the same federally regulated guidelines. Without the taxpayers and government associations, there would be no GSE’s. The GSE’s owe a duty to the public, which is why they were formed, to maintain liquidity in lending which facilitates broad public access to lending. The appraiser does not somehow participate in an isolated bubble, the appraisal is just one of many required inclusions to form a legal lending product. An appraiser should not pretend they can write away their entire participation liability with disclosure disclaimer language which comes after the fact of all other contractual agreements. If that was actually possible, why do you even bother paying for insurance?
You’re taking me back to the early days when those old legal expert lawyers whom were also appraisers would grill us on the legal concepts of client relationship and such, how client definition is often a separate animal from liability. Everything in the end, rests on credibility of assignment results. That’s where competency begins, and ends. Good times.
Point 1; believes it or not there is market data that has been mislabeled, miscategorized, or have several other listing errors that would cause the listing not to shore up in a specific search. If newer of more complete information becomes available that could have an impact on value, you wouldn’t change your report, even if you are wrong, that is just silly to me. I am a human and can make mistakes. If I need to fix a report, then I will.
Point 2: I provide the service to the lender/client, not the borrower and said report is provided under the scope of work the lender/client and I have detriment appropriate…not the damn borrower. If it were up to them they wouldn’t get one. If they want one that they can rely on to make financial decisions, then they can order a separate one.
Point 3: the product is being purchased and ordered by the lender/client, not the borrower. I’m speaking to them and potential reads, but not other intended users. Just because you get a copy doesn’t mean that titles you to use said report indiscriminately. Take some legal courses in appraising and you will find this to be true, Peter Christiansen to be specific. You can go agree with him.
That’s a good counter Spencer. I’ve read those positions before though and have long since committed to a slightly different approach.
When one avoids auto import tools, takes time to qualify all data, and finds second validation of data sources when possible, the risks of utilizing someone elses flawed data is diminished. I feel the disclaimer is pointless because I’m not relying on other appraisers data, which is what the CU database essentially details. I’m dealing with data upstream of the CU system, directly from the source. My data is always more reliable, and better qualified, without a doubt. I do everything manually to assure this.
‘Not the damned borrower’. Don’t think for a moment that sort of tone is missed or overlooked by the human beings you are dealing with. If that’s how an appraiser feels about a borrower, it’s going to show one way or another. Compassion and care goes a long way to avoiding complaints and better mitigating service related objections. There is a concept called ‘the duty of care’, and this too has been ruled a valid obligation of the appraiser, which is why the borrower is required to receive a copy of the appraisal report and is allowed to rely on the appraisal as part of their mortgage lending engagement decisions. Look someone in the eye and tell them they have to pay for your services but you don’t answer to them, you’re on borrowed time. The no promise of indemnity, no liability implied, limited scope service approach is simply better and more respectful. The idea the lenders of the world will go to bat for the appraisers if there is contention, that’s another flawed idea, they won’t. It’s simply better to detail the situation; ‘You’re paying for the report, but it’s actually property of the lender, but they’re required to furnish you a copy. It’s a convoluted system which is difficult to navigate and in my opinion, poorly designed. I’ll be here to help if anyone needs explanation or clarification regarding the appraisal conclusions.’ Something like that.
It comes down to basic respect and logic; you’ve paid for my service, which should not be relied on, and you are not allowed to even review because you’re simply not qualified. Sure it reads well to a lawyer… Also it’s important to tailor your approach related to the service you provide. If I were always willing to jump to court and have reports scrutinized all the time, that language may have a proper place. I leave contentious work for the next guy I don’t have time or inclination to play appraiser hero for people whom can’t line things up and make them work right in the first place.
‘If it were up to the borrower, they would not get an appraisal’. Sort of, sometimes that might be true. In such a hypothetical situation, after people started dropping left and right and news stories got out there how bad borrowers were screwed by lenders whom prescribed the right amount to loan, without any valid checks and balances systems in place, people sure would demand appraisals, they sure would. If lenders were not backed by a failing FDIC program, they would too, bail ins for everyone on the taxpayers dime isn’t going to last forever. Estate people always get appraisers, why do you suppose that happens? Additionally appraisers get a bad rep from the separation from loan production rule, prior to this rule people really would reference great reliable appraisers all around town, we had more leads than time in the day. People would choose lenders based on whom their favorite appraiser worked with. It is the lender forcing their choice of appraiser upon the borrower which leaves room for all this other exploitative process.
‘The product is being purchased and ordered by the lender, not the borrower.’ And indiscriminate use. Um, well, sure you can shop the appraisal. Borrowers shop the appraisal all the time, it’s what they are likely to present first thing to a new lender if they have to switch. FHA put that one to bed years ago with the appraisal portability rules, FNMA partially followed. You’d better believe that appraisal will be handed out far and wide if there is a problem. Good luck redirecting their attention to paragraph 2 on pg 3 where some obscure disclosure lies. They’ll be arguing the user argument and you’ll be on the defensive. That part comes after you’re already dragged into court. Where as the indemnity argument is a better up front defense to deflect challenges in the first place. Which is why amc’s always pass that to the appraiser, it’s the superior legal choice to pass your indemnity down the line rather than trying to argue intended use.
I’m the one having to personally show up and talk to the borrowers. So I treat them with respect and let them know I am a reliable professional they can count on. We should not just kick these people into the mortgage lending machine if they are in some sort of crisis or need more attentive care. Don’t forget you’ll need an entirely different disclaimer when you engage regular people whom would be your ‘client’, no lender in place, nothing to do with the CU system. I like my disclaimers better, because I can run with the same thing regardless of the situation, it works for legal, private, realty, lender, estate, or dispute. By using this report everyone aggress the appraiser makes no promise of nor any implied indemnity, yada yada.
Appraisers used to write away all possible liability, Fannie put an end to that a long time ago, which is where the approved language everyone copies comes from, the top. That is lending specific language. The lawyers, well, isn’t it something these insurance companies servicing appraisers never go under, there is always some magical way that when entire financial systems unravel, the appraisal industry insurers somehow find a way to stay afloat. One can get a lawyer whom will truly represent you upstream of your insurer, normal price tag; $50k+ per instance. We’re on our own so don’t get too fixated on how this or that rule will save you. It comes down to the individual people we deal with each and every last time.
Anyways, interesting conversation thanks.
Baggies: you ramble on with a superior complex that just doesn’t end. I’m a tier one appraiser and not based on my own opinions, but from those that continually buy my product over the laundry list of other appraisers. I never once said that these comment are iron clads to absolve anyone from being sued, or even win a suite. I just said that this is what I use in my report. I was told by the attorney that they are beneficial in court for countering my side of the industry from frivolous complaint because the borrower didn’t get the value the felt they should. I did t think that I had to explain that to anyone in this room. The rest is your own conjecture to the conversation.
The borrower, sometimes they are there to provide access to the home. And I listen to their stories with empathy, but that doesn’t change my job or the scope of work. This little conversation we are having does not somehow explain that I often sit with them for an extra 30 discuss better options to place money in the house for investment purposes, or listen about “this” or “that” house just sold. Dispute you take a single sentence and morphing into a characterization of who I am and what levels of service I provide is erroneous and assumptive at best on your part.
Im just going to ignore U and intentional ly anoy u with mispeled wrds pour grammar lack of punctuation so you can sent me a reply with how superior ur use of the English vernacular and screwed person views with on everything in .life.
Nothing like proclaiming yourself a tier one appraiser while defending yourself. Did you come up with that? Who says you are tier one? That’s the EGO that makes things hard to make changes with. Well done.
Underwriters, lenders, peri reviews and state boards. Thanks
Ah. We have found the messiah appraiser. The one that can do no wrong. SMH. Love your ability to gloat.
Wasn’t gloating but speaking to my annoyance to another Appriaser pompous attitudes towards me and many others on the blog. Never claimed to be a messiah in any way on anything. The position is filled my none other than Jesus Christ. Perhaps you have heard of Him. He has intact come to save. Again, you are making assumptions and only reading one sentence. Context is everything, with out that your text is just a con. Cheers mate.
Special thanks to the most influential appraisers, they’ve really managed this industry so well. You are not an intended reader of this post. You can not rely on this post. You can not respond to this post. Any attempted dissemination of this post is against the scope of post statements and is considered illegal use. You can not rely on my work even though you paid for it. The lawyers said; Yeah, they’re doing a great job lately. Because everyone trusts lawyers right? I’ll take those religious wafers in a to go box, thanks.
Ii admit that was funny, but it didn’t change the fact the borrower is not an intended user, nor do I want them using it for “x” means. I get paid but the bank, no one else. Cheers
The counter is that it is the borrowers whom are just as likely to file complaints. If the bank is paying you, why does the borrower have to pay for your service? Some things just can’t be explained away with legalese language.
In a mortgage lending assignment, it is a legal requirement for the lender to supply a copy of your report to the borrower, correct? Duty of care may be applicable, and likely is. My counter is that we should be using different language, presuming duty of care is a defacto presumption which would be accurate. Alternative language seems more appealing to deflect claims upstream instead. Best of ability. No indemnity guaranteed or implied. By using this report all parties agree to yada yada.
research keywords; duty of care appraisal
‘The intended user of this appraisal report is the lender/client. The intended use is to evaluate the property that is the subject of this appraisal for a mortgage finance transaction, subject to the stated SOW, purpose of the appraisal, reporting requirements of this appraisal report form, & definition of MV. No additional intended users are identified by the appraiser.’
That’s the FNMA approved language which was developed after decades of confusion and arguments back and forth regarding limiting conditions. I can’t remember exactly, but I am sure this is taken from FNMA, and was part of an appraisal liability class, students were encouraged to copy the language FNMA put forth as a minimum. I might have posted the link to this previously. ‘reporting requirements of this appraisal report form’. aka; you can’t write away limiting conditions if you’re on the fnma form, completing an fnma assignment.
They don’t like to talk about duty of care, yet those additional standards may apply. When you’re talking duty of care you are talking legal obligations of professional performance, not being negligent, understanding that limiting intended users is not the whole enchilada, harm is harm regardless, if it can be proven. And that’s when people end up in the weeds with contentious review, the quality of such review being beyond your control, if you ever get to even know who the reviewer was or their review conclusions at all. The point being even though a borrower may not be an intended user, (and it is good practice to reiterate that in your scope), it’s still perhaps wiser to write for the laymen as well, assuring the report is understandable by everyone whom may receive or read the report. That’s why I argue against comps sharing, against third party assistance, against data auto importing, arguing for more time intensive data verification, unique report writing, more of a self contained approach with fewer references to ‘the work file’, and presuming the duty of care is present to everyone I personally come in contact with through the course of the assignment. I would never ever dismiss the borrower or redirect them to the lender for further information if they are upset. I’d say let me bring the lender in on this, will call you right back.
In the end these are indeed technicalities, but important ones which could spell the difference between upset feelings and an actual complaint. Also an interesting side note, I believe this is a compelling reason for appraisers not to rely on third party inspectors, as the duty of care for professional services would still apply, yet may not be applicable to non licensed third party help, especially if the third party people’s signatures and business names are not clearly stated to the appraiser who receives their data, which often it is not or is substituted by something like the amc company or app producers branding.
The existing structure is complicated enough. Appraisal modernization will sink this industry if we don’t find a way to stop such radical retooling. We were right to harbor such concerns, the very first thing appraisal modernization actually accomplished, was to slander the entire industry as racists as some justification to push the program along faster. The evolved beltway organism, hard at work with your tax dollars, and member funds. Don’t read in too many presumptions though, I’m rendered as 2 dimensional on this particular forum. I’m just in it for some staying power, there is no retirement for me. Junky, I’m going to be late on this report, whatever, there is always tomorrow.
“I breath in depleted uranium as I look over the endless ruins of a failed world. Finally, we have achieved equity.”
I do agree with you generally and do not use similar language in the report that I write, to be clear and objective as humanly possible while adhering to all said standards. However, of the borrower calls miffed about value, USPAP restricts communication of said report that they are legally allowed to have. Ethic, report and communication rules restrict what I can and can’t talk about, of which is little. I can discuss appraisal principles and what appraisers do, but the report in their hands, nope, can’t do it. They aren’t sworn to up hold USPAP, but I am. So by pushing the bounds of separation of, just because you have a report in your hands, that doesn’t entitle you to anything. USPAP also stats that it does not matter to pays the appraiser for said report because that does not determine who the intended users of the report are. The Appraiser determines who the intended users are.
The borrowers already determined they wanted the house before they sought a loan, before I was ever engaged for an assignment, so the idea they are going to reply on it as it was written for a loan is a silly notion to me. To do otherwise would be taking the report itself out of context for their own purposes, of which were never intended. Again, the drive for separation.
I will look up duty of care for Appraisers. Out driving.
Spencer, all great counter arguments. Well played. I’m going to simply keep up with the anecdotal information allowance. By talking general principal of appraisal methodology, regardless if they’re holding an appraisal in hand or not, this is helpful to avoiding complaints. So far so good. It is an ideal situation when I can pass people back to the lender, that’s not always a constant though.
Having well versed talking points about everyday applications of basic appraisal development is also invaluable when dealing with the occasional upset people. They sometimes parry, I counter, it’s over just like that. The lenders are fine with this, they don’t mind the appraiser assisting in explaining complex situations when the road gets bumpy.
I suppose this seemed like a good ethical principal to adopt, something with treating everyone fairly, based on how poorly I’ve seen some people treated in the past. Then there are complex issues such as other people involved not necessarily providing a good duty of care themselves, and it can be accidental, lending and realty are already complex systems with many moving parts, it’s not run perfectly every last time despite good intentions. Just seems natural when as an appraiser, to be upfront and honest. We keep it focused on the home, improvements, state of the market, perhaps some speculation on what’s happening and how it’s shaking out for other people. I draw the line at financials, and clearly say I don’t even want to know about those positions and can not help, that’s the lenders department. I know this is well received, it’s sort of sad that sometimes when I’m referenced I’ll have to tell them with mortgage lending, they are not allowed to choose their appraiser. Gaining trust goes a long way.
Tensions run high at the end of the line, the appraiser is often the last person they’ll see in person, sometimes the only one, before closing. People get stressed out on that conveyor belt, I know when I’m the borrower that’s how I feel. So I take a different route. By providing attentive duty of care to everyone, I solidify and better establish the common understanding of scope of work as well as the intended use. Nobody is confused that my participation is quite limited, yet I am still well versed and can answer questions regarding every moving part.
Also to David; This is on topic, in a round about sort of way. The notion that some big government bureaucracy can successfully replace this much experience among the appraiser group with some software program and valuation algorithm, program some silly app in a cell phone to substitute all of the professional appraisers duties and responsibilities, supposing anyone can competently complete the tasks. It’s totally absurd and only makes sense on paper. In the real world, professionally licensed appraisers are invaluable to the lending process, and we are invaluable to borrowers as well. They can go on and cry about some process delays and slightly higher cost basis forever, those complaints do not even come close to countering the positive contributions we make to the process, and the general public.
If there is to be outside help brought in like lobbyists, it’s important they understand some of the nuances which have led us here. Corporate directors in ivory towers are presuming that we’re not making positive contributions. They’re misinterpreting data regarding borrowers statistical trends related to lending approvals and equity positions in real property. It’s a real world problem, and in these peoples desire to do something, to appear to be doing something, they’re about to break an already tentative lending system, putting a hundred thousand appraisers and those whom provide services to us, straight out of business and force us to start over in new careers. In turn they’ll disrupt housing value benchmarks with automated process, that when one thing goes wrong, will have exponential effects with vastly further reach and graver consequences than when a single individual appraiser may make a mistake. If they get it wrong from the top down, unintended consequences will cascade through the entire lending and real property markets. So yeah, it’s a big deal worth our time to talk about.
Whomever can actually in their minds equate these complex issues to categorically calling the entire body of appraisers a bunch of racists is a juvenile idiot whom should not even be trusted with silverware, they belong in padded rooms so they are no longer a danger to themselves or others. Every single time we appraisers have to read something about ‘the problem with racism in the appraisal community’, is another clear indication we’re dealing with people whom are not qualified to participate in the first place. Everyone whom adopted and repeated this position should resign in shame, because they’re incompetent. Thankfully there is a substantial body of professionals, such as the many appraisers whom participate in this blog, whom are not incompetent, as we continue to strive for meaningful solutions to complex problems in trying times.
Many of us are already at the end of the line after decades of abuse and undeserved slander being levied at the appraisal industry, constantly taken advantage of by outside predatory forces like appraisal management companies. This is it. If efforts here do not materialize into something better, that’s it, it’s over. There is no more money to be had, or to share. This is it.
I’d like insight, if anyone knows for sure, when the appraiser states, in the report, the appraisal is the intellectual copyright of the appraiser wouldn’t use by anyone other than the authorized (intended) user be copyright infringement? Also, the appraiser is required to indicate, by clear identification, intended users. Seems to me if not specifically listed as an intended user they may “rely” on the appraisal however that differs significantly from the intended user. If the appraiser has no contractual agreement with a borrower they have no liability to the borrower. It’s akin to buying a bad piece of meat from a butcher and suing the farmer (I know, ya’ll might have a problem with that analogy but cut me some slack, you know what I mean). Now if the borrower wants to sue the lender who in turn sues the management company who in turn sues the appraiser that seems like the chain of responsibility. But, each suite against the next would need to base their action based on the merits of their respective reasons.
That is a super interesting topic to talk about PJTMC. Mr Mike Ford, the founder of the Appraisers Guild had some great articles related to this in years past. A review of his previous writings would likely bring great perspective. I recall posting links to Corelogic patents, other patents related to the FNMA CU system, and many appraisers chimed in with informative detail. On that side, reviewing patents and intended use, there was clear indication there would be broad dissemination of mined data. I still suspect this was monetized in ways which has led to the proliferation of avm utilities broad footprint in the markets to this day. The FNMA CU system was not created from scratch internally. They utilized existing technology from other corporations as building blocks to form the system.
Intellectual copyright basically vanished into thin air when MISMO protocol and XML files rolled around, although ENV files were an early iteration of appraisal report data mining. These updated process, for whatever they contributed to lender side efficiency, also brought forth wholesale data mining from the top down. Responsible attentive appraisers often decried how all standards still applied, issues such as even if the forms were briefer or the scope of work reduced, we never actually were able to save any time if we were still complying to the letter. And we lost total control of any notion of intellectual ownership. When a report flows to the GSE system, there is a defacto agreement the data will be mined.
Previous tools such as encrypting pdf files became pointless, and appraisers started writing in disclaimer language about true report copies and what not. You can’t encrypt an XML file and if you could, there would be no point in submitting it anyways. In the very first days one of the software providers even provided a reverse XML conversion tool back to pdf free for all to use, which was quickly pulled back. If there is data manipulation of the XML file, appraisers are not supposed to know that may be happening. In the initial years we’d get audit verification sort of letters from third party companies which lenders would hire to assure true report copies, but as this exceeded stated intended users, it was so contentious the industry at large dropped that quite interesting approach to randomly verifying true report copies were what was actually disseminated. Personally I’d have liked to see that continue. You never know, and there are verified stories of appraisers reviewing their own reports, which were not true report copies. Obviously, someone along the way may have cut out or added XML data.
There was no counter for appraisers whom held to the intellectual copyright principals. Rather than being rewarded for our rich contributions, which was basically the entire body of appraisals submitted to GSE’s for the past decade, which populated core data for the FNMA CU system, appraisers were punished with reductions in workflow, reductions in compensation, barraged with a never ending slue of new automated process which saved everyone else time, and cost us dearly. This takes us back to the limitations of the uniform standards of professional appraisal practice. USPAP applies to appraisers, and nobody else. People whom in various shapes or forms whom receive or read appraisals, do not have to respect intended user limitations for most practical purposes. Enforcement only goes one direction, towards the appraiser.
There are new quite dangerous conceptions of responsibility floating around in society today, which seek to place blame and liability in an overly broad fashion. Blaming the entire appraisal community for one appraisers alleged mistakes. Being able to sue a gun manufacturer if one lone nutcase misuses the product which the manufacturer has no actual control of. These attempts at mitigation to perceived problems create many more problems than they solve. Such as should an auto manufacturer be held liable if someone drives in a manner which causes an accident and hurts others. Should lenders ultimately be held liable for all matters pertaining to realty and appraisal, since without lenders, there would be no need for sales or valuations. It’s a slippery slope which we are not just treading the edge, we’re already in free fall.
Which is why urgent reconsideration is necessary. Liability and culpability should be appropriately limited to the individual, not the group. The allure of monetizing small issues as well as the ability to more broadly capture peoples attention was so substantial, we’re observing with increasing frequency this tendency to cast an overly wide net to maximize the issues impact. But at what expense? For the valuation service specifically, some of the most dire warnings appear to be coming true. Can you imagine if these principals applied to all industries all at once? Nobody would be able to produce, sell, or use anything. Everything from a razor blade to a software product would become inaccessible because nobody would be able to produce anything for fear of excess liability. In the good old days when society was better educated and took more sensible tempered logical positions than in today’s world, we’d simply say; don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. People should seriously pause and reconsider if they actually want a sort of complete social network and social credit score where everyone is responsible for everyone else, we’d lose far more benefits than we’d gain. aka; social equity. (I think this photo came from Johnathan Millers blog.)
This statement regarding Cert 23 Intended User/Intended Use was suggested directly by Peter Christensen attorney working for himself now but formerly head counsel for LIA Administrators. He gave this exact recommendation in a video podcast offered directly by the Ins. Co website link. He said so, so call him a liar,- or dont. If an attorney working on behalf of a large insurer recommends certain language to help me identify a protect against a future claim I as a non-attorney will add the language. It should be noted in cases that LIA actually wrote about on their site they referenced how many times a judge read this line 4-5 references to the same thing in a report and [ determined for himself the borrower was not the intended user] dismissing a case on those grounds. For that appraiser the comments held, the judge held the same and the borrower did not succeed. I’m using this comment and no lender has ever told me to remove it or told me I cannot use it.
I have the same in my reports.
Yet courts regularly cite and conclude decisions to the contrary. As do State Regulators. FNMA and GSEs have declared unilaterally we have no fiduciary obligations …at the same time, they add unending layers of future lender assignees and defaulted loan purchasers who CAN claim reliance on our work product.
Even when its beyond credibility to believe they relied on our appraisal to buy loans OR collateral 3 years after our effective date.
Here is my canned comment for Intended / Nonintended users for what is worth:
“Beyond what is specifically disclosed in this report, this appraiser has not identified any purchaser, borrower or seller as an intended user of this appraisal, nor should such a party use or rely on this appraisal assignment for any purposes. Such parties are advised to obtain an appraisal from an appraiser of their own choosing, if they request an appraisal for their own use. This appraisal report should not serve as the basis for any property purchase decision or any appraisal contingency in a purchase agreement relating to the property. Finally, perfection is impossible to obtain, and competence does not require perfection. This appraiser is completing due diligence with the application of professional appraising practices promulgated in USPAP 2020-2023” This appraiser’s work is completed in an unbiased mannor consistent with USPAP methodologies promulgated in Standards 1 and 2, with all Census Track information being rejected and not even viewed for any given assignment at any given point in time during this appraiser entire career.
The intended use of the appraisal is solely to assist FHA in assessing the risk of the Property securing the FHA-insured Mortgage. FHA and the Mortgagee (not the mortgagor) are the intended users of the appraisal report. There are no other intended users of this report and no other individuals/entities may rely on the information, opinions and conclusions contained in this report for their purposes that include but not limited to; determination of their listing price, investment choices, lawsuit, or sales contract contingencies that may or may not exist prior to the effective date of the assignment.
The most effective defense; is, for everyone to raise their fees, significantly without discussing particulars, and just not accept that assignment for less. That’s exactly how easy it’s gonna be..
We got off the subject and started a different discussion. Why talk about market data when your profession is under fire and many of us will be looking for other ways to make a living. The question is what do we do to stop the decline in our profession.
Get credibility back. By detailing that this hoodwink magic show TAF, Brookings, and FNMA are promoting for their own self interests is complete nonsense.
They can talk about the racism problem in the appraisal community until they are blue in the face. But how does this supposed racist vein somehow not apply to all the realty agents, all the mortgage agents, all the underwriters, all the assessors, all the title agencies? It’s complete nonsense. One has to be a special kind of stupid to buy into this. To think when a glass of water spills, it only spills in one little place and the rest of the table remains dry. They’re all on board; if we can just keep the angry mob’s attention elswhere, they won’t come to us. Cowards.
Realtors are racist. Mortgage brokers are racist. Title agencies are racist. Appraisers analysis merely reflects their racists activities.
We need to be prepared to donate some money
Be careful John Hamilton junior and senior wise or stated author. Don’t send him money. I fellow appraiser in Mercer County new jersey. Last i saw John Hamilton was signing reports for a Pennsylvania appraiser puppy mill fronting as jersey providing reports with fictious 30000 across board cost to cure adjustments for reports completed for agents to establish selling price of property. The property was inspected by someone else. No professional assistance was noted in report about the inspection. The report was written by someone else who made a 30000 across board adjustment on 350000 value asset. No significant report write up or whatever noted. And report was signed by John Hamilton. And now he is asking to be a lobbyist on behalf of industry where if what gives 5000000 dollars to a lobbyist he retires to costa rica.
Not this John Hamilton I never leave Monmouth County NJ
If you have any documentation otherwise with my credential number 42RC000142 let me know. firstname.lastname@example.org
And trust me I do not want to be anybody’s lobbyist and dont want your money, my thought was a professional lobbyist, not someone from the rank and file. If you want to slander get your facts straight. The Appraiser Registry lists five (5) John Hamilton’s which one (lic #) are you referring to Shawn?
Save your pennies boys and girls. Commerical banks alone spent 64+ million on this endeavor last year alone. This is only the individual banks and does not include the countless corporations who own AMCs. The entire total spent on buying off legislators comes closer to $100,000,000 per year. If a Messiah steps forward who can raise over $1,000,000 from appraisers I am willing to contribute to the cause. The only real shot you have is to get home buyers on your side (see HUD transparency or lack thereof), use a GoFundMe account and attract the national media to cover the story.
Did all the money wasted on the Black Lives Matter grift appear in those lobbyist disclosure lists? The lady whom ran that was buying ten thousand dollar bottles of fine alcohol, partying in some mansion they wrote off as a business expense, and paid one of her family members millions for ‘personal security’. Who’s still buying this?
I like retired on this one. Certainly it will cost less to pay for some opposing media coverage. News for sale. That’s how it works these days.
Not sure what Baggins is trying to say, but am glad he is listening. So Julie, our esteemed profession is part of the financial services industry because we provide investors (not lenders because they peddle their paper) accurate collateral verification with supporting sales data allowing them reassurance as they move mortgaged back securities into their portfolio. We have other roles of course, but our bread and butter at least for the last two years has been the role I just described.
There is a few interesting terms to consider. ‘The plunge protection team.’ That’s a Reagan era term but is still generally applicable today. Someone, somewhere, in government, the federal reserve network, or beyond, is right now struggling to find a way to prop the dollar up for another day. Mortgage backed securities are becoming once more, an empty bag. Which is why many big players are moving to real property investments, as commercial speculators purchase residential in bulk, often upstream of regular consumers via sweetheart deals from the GSE’s. All those clever fix and flippers just took a permanent back seat. While the talking heads at brookings and taf and pave are on about fairly distributed equity to citizens, while they simultaneously play the investment side and stand to make a fortune if the human appraiser is removed from the equation.
It’s because unlike portfolio holders, they’re holding for investment income, not market value. Every citizen in this country will now be in competition with mega corporations for regular rentals and property buys. Meet your new landlord. Of all the things the regulatory people could focus on, they’re heads are in the dirt with some fictitious racist trife.
A Little Less Talk and a Lot More Action https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI7YzUKE_wI
Baggins – Give it it a rest – you are straying way off subject – focus man!
The Appraiser Coalition of Washington (ACOW) has a lobbyist. All states should do this.
I’m a part of this.
Interesting to review. Thanks. How much does your lobbyist cost? How far is their reach?
Absolutely, or start pressuring NAR since so many of us are required to be board members to get the MLS. The Appraisers Guild is an good group to start with
Speak of the devil, new FNMA update.
Special favors for amc’s, awesome. Who’s running things, really? Sure why not, more restriction of trade.
You all should become familiar with Fannie Rep named Lyle Radke. He is spearheading the move to AVM as well as collateral verification by unlicensed individuals. It is an odd spelling, make a note of it and google as well.
Sure why not, I think we’ve reviewed this material before.
How did he skate past the DEI audits? lol.
He was not honest with us during the webinar
The Vibes were pretty bad from this one. They did admit that they can’t maintain their AVM data without Appraisers loading the data for them, they just don’t want to PAY us….. Why are Appraisers the only profession that is asked to go broke for doing their jobs?
Who are you talking about – Lyle??????
If you didn’t already know and haven’t felt it… the big AMCS have the power now. They are the ones dictating things.
Most of the big AMCS have Fannie and Freddie in their pockets. There were many former appraisers who went to work for AMCS because they couldn’t cut it, have now decided to go work for Fannie and Freddie.
Why is it that every major conference has the clowns from Fannie and Freddie at their events? So they can have easy access to manipulate to believing what they say. Just look at the organizations out there. NAA. A mix of amc chief appraisers who also have made very special friends with Fannie and Freddie. The NAA isn’t here to help build appraisers rather they are here to help manipulate them. You can’t work for class appraisals and at the same time claim you want to help independent appraisers. That’s insane.
You had Joan Trice and the EXPIO plus her Collateral Risk Company that said they were here to help appraisers yet the only help they got was a damn grab bag full of crap at the expo.
Now we are at a crossroad and most independent appraisers are either leaving or doing other work. There is no getting back to the way things were and as long as Fannie and Freddie are in charge, lender work will continue to diminish.
Then you have the Appraisal Institute who continues to pimp themselves out to everyone that will listen that they alone are the messiahs when we all fully know well that they are nothing more than an education organization that will cower down to everyone else to remain relevant. Then you have ASC who wants the power but needs to get rid of TAF in order to do so.
Follow the clues people. Stop supporting such organizations so that they have 0 power and start building something else.
Nothing is going to change. Not even if we fight it. The 6 major players that Fannie had given powers to, who continue to gouge the consumers and pay yall shit, have more in place to combat things than we do.
It’s time to wake up and start doing other things. Expand yourself. Let Fannie and Freddie and these AMCs fail. Let them continue to brain wash society and fail.
It’s way too late to combat the issues. It’s not too late though to expose them, however too many appraisers are either not awake or scared to do do. They want everyone else to do it for them.
Coalitions were formed. Other organizations were formed yet 99% of appraisers didn’t join them or were too oblivious to what was going on. So here we are today pleading for a lobbyist or an organization to step up. How about you step up. How about you all individually step up. How about you do something instead of complaining to other appraisers. You want change. Well you have the choice to make change yet you are too chicken shit to do it yourself. Do something and take charge. Put your feelings aside personally so that you can better the profession you apparently love so much. Or just continue to do nothing and watch others succeed on your behalf.
I think you have given up and are too negative. With all of the bloggers we have on this forum somebody must have some solid well though plans that all appraisers can support, it will cost money but it may help save your business.
My business is thriving and it’s because I stopped pandering to the main players. It’s almost end of March and I’ve gotten 26 orders at way higher fees than lenders and AMCS offer.
I fought this for many years. Yet too many just sat on the sidelines and did nothing. I gave it my all. It’s time I continue to do what is working for me and stop worrying about everyone else. They had the chance many years ago and didn’t do anything. What makes you think they will do it now.
Well, we can’t boycott the amc industry twice… I talk to agents all the time about these issues. There is a general consensus that these narratives are just fictitious, the regular people doing the work laugh at the concept of racist biased appraisers. Like poke and sniff, they’ll have to fulfill their dreams in order to realize, perhaps this was a bad idea. But it won’t take as long as poke and sniff, unlike a case of food poisoning, people losing their homes to unreliable automatic algorithmic valuation will not just get over it. Other general positions are that people do not trust automation, such central systems have been destroying their own credibility left and right in real time. The people managing these systems are simply not in possession of enough intellectual capacity or vision to run them as intended. Central planning reads well on paper, but in the end, the systems are only as effective as the people running them. Normal sane people appreciate help and community rather than ultimate dictatorial power. If one is to grandstand about the do something now position, it is presumed there is effort to back the position. Please illustrate from example, what you have done which you feel has been an effective or helpful contribution. Inquiring minds want to know.
Ha ha! Perfect timing. Retired, give yourself a pat on the back. All those years or relentless effort.
However, a brand new game is afoot…
Well said grass!!!!
NAR is most likely our best bet to make things happen. Please remember, WE Appraisers pulled away from NAR somewhere around 1991. Those that were instrumental in that move do not speak for Residential Appraisers. Tomorrow (5/15) is the deadline to apply for committees. There are some new staff members that are actually LISTENING. https://www.nar.realtor/national-leadership/committee-members-liaisons
Best bet? Hardly. Too many conflicts of interest now and in the future.
Certainly worth greater involvement and interest though.
You still need to be able to stand back and be able to effectively criticize and even block plans that are not in OUR profession’s best interests.
Appraiser Frank Gregoire (Louisiana I believe) is already working with NAR. We need to give him our support to the extent feasible. Not give NAR a blank check on what we’ll support with them, but to the extent feasible, seek to mutually support each other.