Why is ethics in billing a defacto taboo subject? Wait, I have already clearly answered that question, and apparently without objection. I’m creating a free seminar for lenders titled ethics in billing. Guess what happens next.

Greg in that area I think his approach is excellent. The 1 1/2 hour free webinar had enough information that I COULD increase my own efficiency significantly if I chose to do so. Areas in which outsourcing overseas (for anything including marketing) would not be required.

While I’d never have paid in advance for the webinar I will admit in hindsight that it would have been worth the entire cost of his VA Academy ($297 or $299?). He and I will continue to disagree re all aspects of foreign outsourcing but I accept that appraisal outsourcing is a very small aspect of his overall presentation and is not required to make his system ‘work’. Appraisers COULD use U.S. based trainees as Virtual Assistants…as one I know, does.

Excellent. Since the other guys have refused to answer the ethics in billing questions, would you take a crack at that? Thank you.

More. And I need more American help.

And Greg, has that resulted in you hiring more or less American workers?

How you guys feel about each other is inconsequential. The consumer is being harmed with unethical billing practices and this needs to stop. End of story.

One presumes you approach appraisal duties with the same air of egotism and associated incompetence.  There is a saying;  read before posting.

Abdul, when you were reviewing reports, did you ‘pass’ on those that were ‘thin’ or abhorrent? Many do.

The measure of appraisal acceptability is not whether FNMA has put one on a do not use list; nor is it whether the FBI has kicked in the door. The ONLY measure of acceptability under USPAP is in the context of acceptability / suitability for its intended use AND what an appraisers peers would conclude.

Lets not pretend the standard is only criminal or near criminal abuse. There are hundreds of appraisals each year that are unacceptable but which fall far short of those egregious levels.

I don’t accept a ‘spectrum’ of ethics. Right and wrong rarely have gradations imho. Appraisers know the difference.

I do most of my work for three AMCs. None of the AMC’s do the initial quality control review in the US. None of them. Their VA’s go through the interior photographs and make sure that the labeling is consistent and makes sense with other data point in the report. When you wrote, “He is communicating information that is and should remain confidential.” To lay the blame at the feet of appraisers is a little bit misguided in my opinion. This horse is out of the barn and has been for years. Why don’t you scold the mortgage industry? I have a tip for the appraisal industry. They don’t care about us as appraisers and they care even less what we think. I agree with your sentiment that this is not a good thing for society at large, however, we as real estate appraisers are a small leaf floating in a mighty river. We didn’t create this river, we just work in it. The question is how do we as small business owners navigate this process in the best possible way. The mortgage industry does whatever it wants and does not ask, nor is it interested in the perspective of the appraisers.

I use VA’s to do the more mundane tasks of the appraisal process. Do you really feel like its the best use of your time to draw a virtual yellow line around the subject parcel on a plat map, with a virtual yellow pen, download the map and save it to your work file, then import it into your report? Or list the AMC fee and your fee?, etc… you get the idea… You are an experienced valuation analyst. You should be analyzing on behalf of your client not mundane typographic work. That’s why the mortgage industry/AMC’s engage your services.

Unless I used VA’s to “outsource” work, I’d be living at near poverty levels. It was either change my business model or find a new line of work. The standard fee for an appraisal has dropped over the past 25 years in my market $375 down to $290, but the data requirements have gone up by about 500%. I also am prepared for a new line of work when the mortgage industry figures out that Carbon-based, humanoid appraisers are no longer needed. That day is coming, btw… The mortgage industry is going to do what the mortgage industry is going to do, USPAP be damned. They don’t care about us, USPAP or our profession. We are an expense in their eyes and delay to the process and they are actively trying to outsource us ASAP. IF they kill the goose laying the golden egg, they’ll get another bailout. You should attack Fed policy and fractional reserve lending. But to go after Roy Meyer or Dustin Harris is picking a fight with someone who actually will listen to you.

I outwork my VA’s any day of the week, everyday of the week. To say the VA’s work in a sweatshop, ought to see how I live and work! There is no shortage of VA opportunity in India and the Philippines. If they had better options, they’d take them. There are no victims here. If you don’t like the industry, leave it. If the VA has a better opportunity, they’ll take it.

I too have spent years attacking (exposing) you on both your website and every space I found with your “Fool’s Gold” promotions. I’m trying to cut back these days. Lucky for you.

Let me get this straight. It is OK for you to buy a stereo, TV, computer and clothes at lower and more affordable prices, at price levels created SOLELY as a result of outsourcing this work to Asian countries, but it is wrong when done so by an appraiser? Fascinating logic. Unless you buy ONLY American made products, and I will bet anything you don’t, you have ZERO basis to put someone down for figuring out how to enhance his/her income by using staff and having the wisdom of finding the best and most cost effective staff by searching the WORLD. ZERO. As one who has attempted to use fully trained appraisers in his office as support staff and in every instance found those persons, persons who had made over $100K a year as licensed appraisers for several years, to be both ignorant and lazy, I have found using virtual assistants to be a blessing and, yes, a profit center. You really need to wake up and realize it is the year 2018 and not 1980 anymore. To paraphrase Dylan, “the times they done changed”.

Bill, like me I don’t think you’d agree with or adapt Dustin’s model but also like me I suspect you’d develop a certain level of personal respect for him if you spoke with him. I have a highly respected friend that uses his methods and Roy’s as well.

I KNOW my friends system, some of the people involved, and the quality of his work and his work ethic. I used to be his review appraiser (my friend, not Dustin’s).

MY view is through the lense of a Los Angeles (and yes, once in awhile even San Diego ‘burbs) appraiser, where it takes me 1 1/2 hours to drive by freeway to the other side of L.A. and another 1 1/2 to  drive back. So I cannot know what it’s like to regularly be in a rural area where despite distances one gets to drive from 50 to 65 mph most of the way instead of stop and go zero to 30 with brief spurts to 60.

I don’t like a lot of tech in the field. A year ago first time I used my laser on commercial I had to go back out next day and remeasure 20,000 sf of offices by steel tape; and long ago I tried having my trainee take my big screen laptop into field with me. Maybe a small screen would have worked but big didn’t (bounces too much). There may be work arounds. I can see scenario where I COULD do two a day in a long day, but not everyday (for me).

Now I DO know of people that sign 4 to 6 a day (1004 or 2055) and I can tell you that without exception they are not doing their own field work for their 20 to 30 weekly reports.

Craig I could not disagree more. My average fee is over $1,000 (not counting C&I). Most others I know from here also are at norms for their area (well above AMC norms).

It’s ironic you cite an excess of labor at the very time AMCs and some GSEs are promoting the meme of an appraiser shortage. Maybe you are on to something comparatively. In 1986 when I started and we had 4 to 8 week delays before we even scheduled inspections there were less than 7,500 appraisers in my state. By 1991 (I think that was first license count), we went up to a high of 25,000 and are now somewhere around 12,000 I believe. I remember base fees of $300 to $325 then and ownes/LOs that offered as much as $500 if the appraiser would work a weekend and slip them in. (I never did but I was naive back then).

What evidence can you cite for your “many cases the automated values will be more credible and reliable than those done by high volume appraisers”? We have hugely divergent AVM results right here in this blog and have NEVER ONCE found one with credible results across any kind of spectrum. NOT ONE.

I get you point about comparative reliability but even there I respectfully think you are incorrect. A 3 to 6 a day appraisal result is at least as good as an appraiser assisted AVM or so called enhanced comp check. The argument is whether it is also USPAP compliant. At least the property has been inspected by someone. According to certifications the comparables have also been inspected at least from the street. Personally I don’t believe in the processes that produce that volume of finished appraisals, but I have had opportunities to check results. Usually my critique will be on overall report quality absent serious disagreement on concluded value (not always – like any report bathes, some are just plain bad).

But concur we all have varied opinions to which each is entitled to agree, disagree or a little of each.

Mike, Excellent to hear you had a chance to talk and you see some benefits that Roy has promoted and taught. There are many things that I learned from Roy and very few have anything to do with doing an appraisal. Mostly what I learned relates to administrative productivity and marketing tactics that have helped my business grow and allowed me to work fewer hours.

We agree re outsourcing. All I’m saying is that after talking with the guy I was critical of there is much more to his proposal than outsourcing. THAT’S an aspect he and I agreed, we will not agree on. Ever.

Bill
Not everyone who gives you a phone number wants to go out, and I don’t do phone dating. Sorry to burst your bubble.

In all seriousness, I have offered to have a conversation with you, rather than taking jabs at one another on websites, multiple times. In every case, you have either ignored me or changed the subject. I am assuming that you are not interested in understanding sorry to burst your bubble.

In all seriousness, I have offered to have a conversation with you, rather than taking jabs at one another on websites, multiple times. In every case, you have either ignored me or changed the subject. I can take a hint, but I am saddened by your unwillingness to maybe learn a thing from one another. You sign all of your posts with “seek the truth,” but it is clear to me that that is not what you are seeking.

You are 100% correct Bill, but at the end of the day it’s a losing battle, one we lost a long time ago. There is just way too many problems to list what is actually wrong with the profession. Best of luck to you Bill.