Paul, we are required to report point values. Truth is property has value ranges as you know. $400,000 property may be $380k-$400k: $390k-$410k, $400k-$420k.

I could be anywhere in the above ranges and not be ‘wrong’. Id hate to kill a deal just because I reconciled to the lower end while a contract was mid range.

Im NOT knowingly killing a deal over 5% while its still in my own range conclusion. The contract itself is market data. It doesn’t direct my value, but it shouldn’t be completely ignored either.

Now if Im already at the upper end of a range and contract is over that, then my conclusion will be lower. I guarantee in the above ranges a contract price of $420,999 is going to be rounded and capped at $420 000.

How can I claim to support that $999?

Baggins, Well said. Very well said.

Appraisers aren’t supposed to be “grinding” at all. Appraisers research our data. YOU are expected to support your own pricing with relevant comparable sales. Appraisers WILL consider your data too.

We will also declare a Tidewater situation exists when market data we discovered, or the agent has provided does not support the contract price. Frequently agents are unable to support the price with valid sales data.

Thats not the appraisers fault or obligation. Agents repeatedly mistakenly think we are supposed to help make deals. Thats NOT our job.

I’m fully aware of your situation. Painfully aware. I have had agent block from getting work in a specific county because none of their ROV’s has any substantial data to support the listing price, nor the sales contract price with stories of “knowing” they could get it and therefore it must be worth it to ridiculous price grabs that anyone would laugh at, but them.

Try this one on, it’s clever. A statement a sales agent told me quite some time ago. ‘You know what the problem with appraisers is? Once they get to the number, they quit grinding.’ This speaks on both sides of the issue, getting to the number feasible or not, and if so, is stopping there accurate either?

They love me in times of plenty. But when it’s lean, oh boy, it may be difficult to get me to even accept those orders. Like why should these agents inability to craft well formed deals become my problem? They get really peeved when I call them on the appraisal gap clause. Well, if you’re not comfortable putting that in there to beat the competition, don’t put that in there. The appraisal gap cash promise clause is not just a tool to win the contractual pole position, but rather the expression of a buyers willingness to drive the entire market benchmarks upward. I’ve had a few agents say; we’ve never had an appraiser actually make our buyer pay that. Not sure if I’m dealing with incompetent appraisers or lying agents at that point.

I’ll comp anything aggressively if I’m able and the home is deserving, but that does not always get people there. Agents sometimes just pick these clever things up at seminars; the appraisal gap clause, the foregoing inspection, will not object all of that. Meanwhile when I’m in the buyers shoes I’m objecting to something before ever even seeing the listing. Ha! I don’t care about the frustration of draining the agents time with a lot of showings and a lot of offers, that’s their job and not my worry. As a buyer I’m more about making sure that agent is not steering me to only high point deals, listings from their pals, or being reluctant to actually provide the agency I’m looking for, and being willing to negotiate. The problem with agents is the very first skill many of them develop is how to pat each others backs.

Thanks, good times.

I totally agree with you, but I’m just playing the devils advocate. If the sale contact itself actually causes the appraiser to be bias, then there really are bigger issues with that specific appraiser. In all, the sales contract is effectively subject specific market data. Some knuckle-head said they would buy X and “$X” amount. Is that sale contract feasible in the open market with anything similar to it. If it is yes, how much. If lower, how much – why on both.

Be careful what you wish for. The target on your back not big enough already? How about applying that same standard to the list agent but in reverse; They are required to list at the appraisers value but are not allowed to list higher or lower than that point. Reviewing the contract is essential and this is not some abject exercise in the abstract. Either the sales agents did a good job at forming the contract in alignment with both GSE or other SOW rules at hand, and a reasonable price which fairly aligns with value, or they did not accomplish this task. This touches on the very reason for an appraiser, a check to balance. Something that can not happen if we’re operating in the blind.

One time I had an FHA sale where the seller had listed the typical; we will repair nothing, strictly as is! Yet the list agent accepted an FHA contract. They pulled a clever move and put language in the contract, buyer will forgo the FHA requirements and inspection. Then here comes me, last in the line, the dreaded appraiser. And don’t you know it, the crawl space was so moist, a drain pipe leaking, insulation falling everywhere, another crumby townhome rental not managed well and being offloaded to an unsuspecting buyer. Of course; market heat and buyer was against the wall, so they just went with whatever their agent said. You know, we’ll deal with this once we secure the buy but can not lose yet another deal due to these minor issues, we’ve been shopping for years. All understandable or mostly understandable positions.

Just a few problems; The appraiser does not answer to sales agents. The financing rules apply because the buyer needed financing, minimum property standards were applicable. So I called the repair items and informed them; They can not write away lenders standards in their purchase contracts. Just another example of why the appraiser is so important, why personal inspection is so vital, how agents game the system, and how the principals of consumer protection are upheld better simply by requiring the appraiser to be in place. I did not care if the buyer was getting those repairs or not, I was CYA covering my own liability and also that of the lender and GSE program. This is the symbiotic nature of requiring the appraiser, a win for everyone. Except perhaps the landlord seller whom was to cheap to fix his home problems before trying to dump that off on someone else… Now imagine that situation without a contract being presented to the appraiser.

As far as value, well, if they’ve done a good job, sure, I’ll hit that number. If they’ve undersold I have no problem going higher, although I wonder what games they play at the closing table to make sure the seller does not see the higher than sales price valuation. And if I come in lower, well, that happens sometimes too. The market turns on and operating in the blind is not good practice. Either the appraiser can handle the heat of being in this pressure based scenario, or they should not be an appraiser. There is no magical solution to insulate appraisers from pressure, except perhaps, getting these amc third party companies off of our backs. If anyone would have recognized the appraisers warnings prior to the last meltdown, and canned a few ten thousand rogue mortgage brokers abusing the comps searching program, there would have been no need for the ‘protect the appraiser’ argument in the first place. I don’t need insulated from anything. Nobody is out there pushing me around. I’m doing competent market research and manual report development start to finish, with no help what so ever, and no outsourcing, every, single, time. That’s how you insulate yourself from pressure, don’t try and game the system.

The point is, the very nature of forcing to review the sale contract is potentially making room for an appraiser to become bias towards the sales contract price. If you didn’t have the sales contract price, would you value the subject at the same specific price point you did? Maybe, maybe not.

Absolutely not! Your job is to review the contract.

It’s all good Wendy, I have an excess of free time on my hands. Most of the appraisers like myself whom focus on mortgage lending issues are going out of business soon, a consequence of ongoing GSE and FNMA changes in policy which seek to replace licensed accountable people with unaccountable non licensed third party outsourced servicers. That’s called the property data collector and appraisal waiver program, so beware that’s happening if you have to move again and are unable to utilize VA lending. Under the new ‘appraisal modernization’ systems which are currently being implemented, there would be one less professional person to even hold accountable, and you may not have even had an appraisal to review in the first place. At any moment the VA could adopt similar policies.

If what you are saying can be backed up with proof and research, some of the people give the rest of us a bad rep. Rule number one for consumers in the real estate realm; Never worry about hurting someone elses feelings, never let them pressure you, and look out for yourself first. Do not extend trust to strangers no matter how trust worthy they may seem. Always assure there is a sound system of checks and balances in place, full accountability. Always be prepared to simply walk away and start the process over with different people and a different home selection if necessary.

Assemble a comprehensive summary of the issues, a factual data packet, and clearly defined purpose for what you hope to achieve. Form that into one single pdf document so you can shop around. Leave the emotion and frustration out of the issue, just deal with facts. That would define the scope of work or SOW for independent and/or professional engagement. Shop that around to agents elsewhere, an attorney, your insurance provider, a pro senior appraiser whom has the data access in your town, all of that.

Your first stop is identifying which MLS coverage area you are in, so you can shop in the right coverage locations. Some MLS systems do data sharing so the exact location may be a non issue, you’ll have to figure that one out by calling the MLS systems or reviewing their coverage and sharing informational sections of the website. Your state has the equivalent of gerrymandered boundaries with coverage so look into that first. Some MLS groups share with each other, others force individual subscriptions. Some appraisers and realty people buy into multiple systems, some only buy into one, so asking if they have full MLS coverage in your county is an important qualification of services question. That is a possible explanation for researchers being blind to local sales data.

And I never researched if home inspectors are required to be licensed in your state. If so, there is a similar state board licensing for them too. About half the states in this country require home inspectors to be licensed, the other half does not. Generally speaking, they all are expected to have insurance and claims coverage regardless though. Cheers.

https://www.ncrmls.com/coverage-map

Thank you Sir for your response ! You have given me Wonderful advice and I appreciate the time you took to write this ! This has given me a much better understanding of what we need to do ! Again , I Thank you for your Kindness!

Holy Smokes! I’m just looking at this now. Possible avenues of liability; listing agent, buyers agent, home inspector, real estate appraiser. All of whom carry their own errors and omissions insurance. Material misrepresentations may have a cascading effect if repeated down the line. Your own home owners policy may also provide assistance with filing claims. And you may be able to call the local county assessor for an in person visit from their licensed appraiser, as it’s highly likely you’re now over valued and over taxed as the last sale is often an influential factor for updated assessment values. However, every repair you have made then corrects the assessment upward.

Wendy, this is more of an open forum for current issues. There is also a specific appraisal issues forum meant for general public on another popular website The Appraisers Forum. You can simply form an account, then post your own thread. Unlike this website, the AF’s more traditional forum setting from the link below can keep the issue fresh, for as long as appraisers and/or yourself continue to comment and bump the thread. You could simply post a link to this article on that site for a summary of the issue.
https://appraisersforum.com/forums/forums/ask-an-appraiser.169/

NC appraisal board, how to file a complaint. This is your last step not your first, after assembling a complete comprehensive set of supporting documentation. You only get one shot at the complaint, make the most of it with careful assimilation of evidence first. That would include an additional home inspector, a review of the first home inspection. Then to include a forensic review of the first appraisal, something which you can order independently from a qualified appraiser, and does not need to be anyones business but your own, as you would be the client. The VA may offer review services and forensic review.
http://ncappraisalboard.org/disciplinary/complaints.htm

North Carolina realty commission. This is the link to file complaints against sales agents. Again, you’ll want some other documentation preferably from a forensic review, additional home inspection, series of your personal cost and labor receipts from all the repairs you had to complete, photo documentation of the actual state of the home at the time, etc.
https://www.ncrec.gov/complaintform

All that being said, effective age is an important consideration. It may be acceptable to comp 20 years apart, if the homes have similar effective age. Then it’s important to consider the high and low market value and price ranges. One gains perspective if ‘they’ve paid too much’ or paid a higher price than the market value would indicate, based on this spectrum of analysis. Example; You bought $150k, but prices range from $125k to $175k for that category of home. You would have bought average price, for average condition. Market value is a moving target and price is not the same thing as value. One sale example does not set the market. Only a person with access within your states specific MLS data systems can answer that question, because only they will have the necessary data access to review comps and market conditions at the time of your previous sale.

It’s considered a violation of appraisers ethic for an appraiser to advocate for a consumer in a position like this, which is why you’re inundated with more questions than answers from the appraiser respondents to your post. An appraiser is limited by ethical constraints which are enforceable by their respective state boards. So it’s sort of a cat and mouse game as appraisers would help concerned individuals identify resources and relevant data points to consider which may either bolster a claim or position, or possibly also discount the concern.

If you want an advocate you’ll need a lawyer or to be your own advocate utilizing resources like posted above. First you assemble proof and documentation, then make complicated decisions from there. If you want monetary compensation you’ll likely need civil court, although professionals insurance may cover the claim to avoid complaints. So there is no one size fits all firm rule for how to approach these issues. Again, with or without a lawyer is your choice but always better to have someone experienced in navigating those systems.

Hope that helps. Caveat Emptor; Buyer beware. When one signs their name to real property contracts this is the largest investment of peoples lives, not something to be taken lightly. You should have drove that RV all the way to the home and delayed closing with contract amend and extends before signing, or had a trusted independent third party review that home first, or just picked up a short term rental or lived in bed and breakfast settings or an rv on an empty lot of necessary. Military and professionals whom use relocation services have a much more complex situation to manage than those whom are local for more thorough review. This happens all the time though, especially with people moving to new states, site unseen purchases.

Do some simple math, what’s more expensive, taking a loss to refurbish that home then capture a reasonable resale price later, or paying for representation to hold people accountable. Are you able to recoup expenses with write offs? Factor that in. We paid avg price for our home, only to later identify an untold number of deficiencies down the road. If in doubt, get two inspections. Never ever provide sellers inspection terms relief regardless of what the agents advise. There is more protection for condition issues from an inspector than an appraiser. If everyone else is paying high prices for a certain class of properties, that is the market, and the appraiser is obliged to call that as market value. Appraisers should not make materially false statements within reports, that is where liability occurs. People certainly were overpaying in 2021, you’re not alone. Get a 100 ft vinyl tape measure from the hardware store, some grid paper, (one square is one foot) and measure the home yourself to know for sure. Hope that helps. Thanks for stopping by the Appraisers Blogs.

I really hope you get your issues resolved and that a just conclusion comes your way through the agencies you are going to contact. There is one thing you should understand that I see you don’t. Don’t worry, you’re not alone. That is, an appraiser should not have and does not have your best interests in mind., however, your realtor should. An appraiser is NOT an advocate for a buyer, seller or finance institution. An appraiser is an independent, professional that provides an opinion of value based on facts, data and analysis that should support his/her opinion of value without representing anyone or anything other than the facts. So, you can’t sue an appraiser for failure to perform fiduciary duties.

You mentioned that you will start with the State Appraisal Board in your state. I agree. Also, do you have an attorney?

Spencer Paul, some can if you look really blow up some of the photos. This guy had this house packed with stuff . However, the Appraiser made sure to photograph the only small decent section of the fence. There is no way this wasn’t intentional. The rest of the fence and deck are rotting . I would be more than happy to send you what I have via email if you are willing to give me an honest opinion. My email is wendy32778@gmail.com

And before the home inspection. I just thought about the listing, can any of the defects be viewed from the listing photos?

Another question (s) before you proceed with a course of action, can any single bit of the concerns you have be viewed by the photos in the inspection or appraisal reports, regardless of either individuals “calling out” the concerns?

Also the appraisers are there to promulgate public trust and protect the markets, without bias or advocate for the banks, buyers, sellers or any other third party with a vested interest in the transactions. It might be beneficial to have a retrospective appraisal assignment done by a few other local appraisers and see if they came to the same value conclusions as of the original effective date. If there is a small cluster with lower values, then you may have more weight for your positions.

Certainly the appraiser has a duty to represent a house correctly and credibly. Readily observable defects as well as positive features should be detailed. But I’m going to harp one more time about your home inspection report. Their report usually is complete with photographs. And your agent was supposed to have a fiduciary responsibility to you to act in your best interest. Your decision though, to purchase, was made when you signed the contract, which was prior to the appraisal being completed.

With all due respect, I believe you are misinterpreting what I’m trying to say .
It is the VA appraiser’s responsibility to ensure the VA buyer is not paying more for the home than it is worth. Am I incorrect on that? It has nothing to do with our finances. To answer your question, yes, there were homes that were more comparable to the comparables that were used. He clearly disregarded the VA guidelines for looking at homes within 1 mile . There was a home four doors down from mine that sold within the 90 day period prior for $80,000 less. It’s the same year the same size etc., in fact, it is in way better shape than the one we purchased. I had no knowledge of this, until after I began researching. Then there is also the square footage issue. 200 ft.² is a big difference.

The problem I have , is that the VA appraiser that was used on our loan did not do his due diligence. He stated that there were no comparables other than the ones that he listed. They were all , many miles away and much newer. He also stated that this property was in good condition. Now I don’t expect to be perfect as the house was built in 1993. But when you note on your report that the deck is in good condition, and that our fence is in good condition, and that our roof is in good condition and clearly it’s not that’s being misleading and providing misrepresentation of the property , we as the buyer as well as the lender relied upon his report, and the ironic thing is after he invoked tidewater it just so happened that he stated the house is worth exactly what the contract was for to the penny. Isn’t that ironic? There are many issues with this home not just the ones that I mentioned. The driveway was cracked all the way down there were cracks in the garage foundation. There were drainage pipes running from the roof and hanging down by chains draining off into the yard . One of her bathrooms was completely unusable, etc.. Our deck is literally rotting as in you step in it and almost fall through in some places the front porch was left unpainted and has mold all over the wood. You can see where they were. Bits and pieces replaced half assed replaced that is our ductwork had holes all the way through it. Kitchen tile busted ect . all the molding from every window has been removed leaving gaping holes around the windows, holes off the ceiling for massive hooks. Hanging throughout the house, holes and all the walls. At least quarter size I could go on and on, but again my main issue is his clear misrepresentation of the value of his house by his own words for comparables in my opinion, he will lie solely on the selling agent. Which they obviously work closely together very often. There was nothing unbiased about his opinion. It’s impossible to believe that it was. I came on here asking for help on where to turn. Not to be criticized because I waited. Ask about a time. I understand that sometimes appraisers are accused of things that maybe they shouldn’t be but this guy put it in writing and it’s easily disputed, especially the comparables alone.

I think that you are interpreting the appraiser’s responsibilities erroneously. They have no knowledge of your finances. When you say that the appraiser should be sure you weren’t upside down on the loan, that is the lender’s responsibility. The client of the appraiser is the lender and the VA. It is the hope of the VA that if the Veteran wants to purchase a house, they will be be able to do it, provided they are not paying too much for it. By Tidewater, the appraiser was saying you were paying too much. If they used certain sales and not others and you believe it was over valued, do you have other sales to support your conclusion? I understand your situation. However, did you read the home inspection report? Something about this whole scenario does not make sense to me. Yes, the appraiser has a responsibility to report the value accurately. But they are not home inspectors, loan officers or your agent. The agent should have shown you the defects prior to your making an offer. The home inspector had the responsibility of giving you an in depth report on defects. The loan officer should have counseled you on whether or not your finances could handle the purchase. And you bought the house sight unseen. The appraiser had no idea that was the case because the appraiser does not interact with the borrower when doing an appraisal.

Thank you for your response. The reason we couldn’t back out is because we never seen the house until 6 weeks after closing. I understand that it seems like it’s been a long time. Its been a year and a half. Like I stated in previous comments, My Husband has been gone alot with the Military. I have been left to try and fix what I could. WE never should have been placed in this position. I thought the VA Appraiser was supposed to look out for the best interest of the VA Buyer. And to ensure buyer was not upside down on loan. At least that’s my interpretation under the VA Guidelines. However, No one looked out for our best interest here. I’m not saying we are completely without partial fault. But, We couldn’t come out here. My Husbands orders were changed last minute which caused us to live in an RV for 3 months. We had already sold our home in WA. We were desperatly trying to find a home in a nightmare market. That Market made it easy for folks in our situation to be taken advantage of. There is no way this Appraiser had our best interest in mind. I will Start with the State Appraisal board and ask for an investigation. Maybe I could also reach out to the Congressional office and see if the Military Liaison could assist with reaching out to the Appraisal Committee . I appreciate your input