You are 65 and buy your kid IPADs? lol

Wayne, respectfully I’d be amazed if the rest of the country has a disproportionately different ratio of commercial to non commercial appraisers than California does as indicated by your sources numbers. I simply challenge the validity of those numbers.

Each state is different. About six months ago Texas appraisal fees started jumping due to a shortage. The fee hiking real shortage is only found in Alaska and Texas right now.

Is it spreading? Maybe. I got over 20 inquiries from LRES today. Rare. In fact it has never happened before. In each case I wrote saying no, hell no or proposing a $1,500+ fee (mostly due in advance) and a 10 to 15 day turn time with no weekends.

IF we really DO have a fee impacting national shortage then perhaps your view could become viable.

Personally I like Baggins approach of the negotiated $700 or $800 one size fits all a little bit more. It still has the same problem all fixed fees do. It locks you in when circumstances are unusual. I’m NOT doing a ten, or fifty or seventy five million dollar property appraisal for $800!

Instead, I propose all certified appraisers charge from $115 to $125 per hour for routine (not legal dispute) appraisal work and quote fees based on time and complexity rather than ‘form type’. For legal or other exceptional expertise work it’s much higher. I quote EW fees between $300 and $350 an hour depending on minimum court & travel time to be compensated for. It’s negotiable as circumstances warrant.

I’ve posted the fee analyses before and they were submitted to FFIEC, CFPB and Fed Reserve.

They are available on our guild website as well or my own site http://www.mfford.com …skip to last page then if interested read back into document for the logic. It’s boring.

But the entire proposal lends itself to adoption either regionally OR nationally as a basis for calculating fees as long as the appraiser is consulted in advance as to how long they expect the assignment to reasonably take to do PROPERLY.

Just got positive response from an amc manager whom I told their time trying to negotiate with appraisers would be better spent negotiating with lenders, on behalf of appraisers instead. Making good progress with that point. Just quarterbacked a 700 standard permanent fee negotiation that hopefully will pan out.

This is the appraisers new talking point: Your time spent asking appraisers to compete amongst each other would have been better spent negotiating with lenders instead. And specifically also this; All that is necessary to get appraisers attention ahead of the competition, is to offer more appealing terms than the competition. 

Now amc workers may love their jobs but their living in the clouds if they think appraisers relish the notion of competing by low fee and fastest turn time to get individual orders. Such a method is like trying to build a business around a question mark, and is the exact reason there is likely more amc employees than there are actual appraisers these days. Follow with this quip; It should not take this much man power to assign individual appraisal orders.

Here is a special approach which drives them nuts: Please consider $800 and 3 weeks as my new permanent negotiation, so no need to email me individual requests. They’ll say all sorts of nutty things like, if you refuse to negotiate. Then the appraiser response, I just made negotiations easy, and you can count on that figure, I’ll back it with my license. You can count on that figure and I did just provide you a new permanent negotiation point you can rely on.

Happy Birthday.

I have never done an appraisal for LRES (an AMC) yet I stay on their list so I have an idea of what is going on. In fact this morning I sent several copies of offer solicitations to this blog Administrators asking both the email blast and my responses be published (redacted street addresses). I’ve even told this AMC of my intent to build a work file of what I consider ‘bad’ orders to be forwarded to HUD in the future. Their FHA inquiries to me are way up. I’m not even sure whether I’m still on FHAs list, though they say I am. Tells you how long its been since I did anything FHA.

Having said that I still take exception to Wayne’s comments. The problem is NOT the appraiser that accepts an AMC order. The problem are the other appraisers that sit on their high horse in areas where other income streams for appraisers are possible; and then who chastise their peers rather than joining in support of them or working constructively toward a common cause.

Seem strange to any other readers that those advocating retirement or Dairy Queen employment spend so much time encouraging others to join them in their non appraisal bliss? Just asking.

Wayne, since you asked. I CHOOSE to do up to six, maybe seven AMC orders a year for an appraiser owned AMC. I don’t (usually) need the work though the timing is generally when I am slow in my other work. Usually these are orders that they dip into their own pocket in order to cover my fee. Though a couple times I’ve done the work for $400 because I though the assignment was interesting or I was bored or wanted to buy my kid an IPAD or something out of the budget.

I owe NO ONE any apology for that. In fact those that continue to spread the seeds of divisiveness among appraisers struggling to preserve or regenerate our chosen profession should be apologizing to us. THEY undermine the efforts of PROFESSIONAL appraisers across the entire USA…proving to our nemeses how disorganized and divided we remain.

I’m tired of trying to convert them. Let them remain as volunteer recruiters for Dairy Queen, because their opinions about the appraisal profession have become meaningless.

The majority of work I normally do has a fee in excess of $1,000 (sfr). The commercial side used to have fees between $10,000 to $15,000 but a giant national commercial AMC has pretty well lowered THAT market down to between $1,500 to $3,500. A few exceptions remain. Almost all of my work is word of mouth. I do no advertising and make little effort at marketing.

I’m also arrogant. I try to curtail it in here and in dealing with ALL my peers, but it does exist. Admittedly, a defect of character. I know my job and have little tolerance for fools and am not bashful about letting the fools know that regardless of who they work for. Obviously that also cuts into potential client workload. In the end, I have a client because that client WANTS ME and I WANT to work for THEM.

I CHOOSE to stay slow…partly to leave time to deal with Guild and appraiser issues, and partly because I’m 65 years old and flat don’t feel like busting my ass anymore jumping through idiotic lender hoops like a trained seal. I don’t (usually) need to. Though there are exceptions.

I also dispute your 31% residential work statistic unless you have left out a very meaningful context. Double check.

The vast majority of real estate appraisal in America IS residential (anecdotal). Whether the fees generated are also mainly residential or not is anybody’s guess.

As of June 30, 2016 California has 10,936 active appraisers. Of these, 54% are residential certified. Only 29% are general certified. 12% are licensed and 5% are trainee licensed. I know how long a commercial or ‘C&I’ appraisal takes. There is no way possible that 29% of the appraisers are doing 2/3 of the work by volume, in non residential non loan related work.

At the height of our profession (say 2004-2006+-) my state had 25,000 appraisers. We’ve lost 60%. I will not insult the remaining 40% of the original number that are a combined 83% residential or general certified, plus 12% more licensed because they accept orders for residential loan work.

For those that didn’t know. It is FNMA itself that prohibits fee collection at the door. They will not buy a loan where the appraiser has been paid by the borrower at the door. I don’t know about FHA – haven’t checked in awhile.

I also will not insult all those VaCap Members that got an (effective) C&R fee passed in their state, or those still trying to do so in Maryland, MN, CA, PA, DC, NY, CT, NJ, WV, NC, LA, FL, TX , or IL. I DO wonder where the rest of the states advocates are though.

So as one poster noted, speech is free and uncontrolled. Because of this, I’m very cautious about what drivel I allow to enter my mind.

It is not the AMC appraiser that is the cause of our professional ills. It is the uninvolved appraisers that remain critical of all others because THEIR solutions have not been adopted. No matter how unrealistic those solutions may be. They’ll still be posting the same stuff here after all the new laws are passed…still urging impractical boycotts.

Hello Mike…There will always be appraisers who say that “we need to feed our family” We need to do whatever as a reason to bow down to AMCs and accept work that is an insult and a disgrace.

There was a time that I could understand and agree with this group. My mind has changed and I no longer feel sorry for this group. These are the appraisers that keep the rest of us in the pitiful situation that we currently experience. These pitiful appraisers need to take a hike….they need to go and shine shoes, wash cars, etc….whatever it takes to get them out of our industry.

The professionals in our group will not work with AMCs and at some point we will be earning the fees that we deserve. Let the other chumps grovel at the feet of AMCs…no money for them and most certainly no respect for them from their peers. The bottom of the appraisal group…i do not want to be there!

Baggings…I always like your posts. However….you could not in your wildest dreams think that I could accept any assignment from an AMC. That is just NOT going to happen. I do not give a damn if they live or die…I will NEVER accept an AMC assignment. What an AMC wants or does not want does not make me any difference. Really…all AMC requests receive the DELETE, DELETE….Why not grow a pair and join me?

Honestly….I do not even think about AMCs. I know that they exist and they are active in my market. The pitiful appraisers who accept their work are just not a part of my group. I can only do just so many appraisals and that number keeps me swamped with assignments. Gee we turn down a lot of assignments every day without consideration of a silly AMC. Life is good!

Also today, I received a request from the Texas Veterans Land Board. Seems that they are wanting to contract with General Certified Appraisers with three years of experience. I do thank them and appreciate that they want to add me to their approved list. However….all of the application BS that is required is just more BS than I am willing to provide. I hope they find a hungry general certified appraiser with three years of experience that is willing to tip toe thru the tulips with them to become approved. It is just not me! Happy Birthday to me as I turned 65 today.

There will have to come a time where these AMCs, Lenders, government agencies, Realtors, Builders, etc. catch on to the fact that if we are good, qualified appraisers, we have all of the work that we can possibly do and they can take a hike if they think we will kiss their arse! Just my opinion…yours will differ! I wish all of you the very best!

Mr Ford, per your response to my amc person email blurb; That was the amc manager! And he cried to me about appraisers holding orders hostage, taking an entire 3 weeks to get things done, and bragged about his whole 4 years in this industry already. LOL! You can’t make this up.

Sure Wayne, we get that, completely. Negotiating with amc’s works one way and one way only. You tell them my way or the highway, and demand more. It’s a game of musical chairs where lenders have to go through many different amc’s before they get the picture. I’ve had wonderful events happen where I have contacted lenders directly and pleaded with them to use Mercury systems instead or in house. Those efforts return years later, but can return. It feels good to get that call or email that the lender is no longer using amc services, and is inviting you to on panel direct. That feels great.

So two ways to go about it, appeal to lenders or hardline negotiations with amc’s. The cohesion of the amc industry is failing fast as they continue to advocate and position themselves for the lenders best interests, waste their potential energy as they cash through available appraisers, and eventually cannot meet effective service demands. Then the lender bounces to the next one, and the next one, and are probably actively engaged with multiple amc’s at one time. The appraisers solution is to simply identify the lender and appeal to them directly instead. There is a new trend where amc’s won’t release the lenders name until after order assignment. Just find a way to acquire that data, take in the order then cancel, call the realty agent, quiz the workers, quiz the borrower, something to identify the lender. Then forward lender the request, see if they are aware of this activity, and watch change happen. Every individual action matters and rest assured, most amc’s are not countering our position but are unknowingly promoting our position with their unethical unreliable business modeling.

It’s a joke, and everybody knows it. Jig is up nationally, it’s time to re engage with the ferocity of a lion. The truth is like a lion, set it free, it defends itself.

Dairy Queen does not send out desperation help wanted ads, enticing me to ‘name my price.’ Nor do they allow me to boost up with OT, then chill out with nothing if I feel like it. You’re missing the big picture. Its’ the appraisers whom feed them which are part of the problem. If we can wrangle them around to pay and pay well, that is an effective solution.

I find it remarkable how many amc’s are crying they’re losing money in Colorado due to these sustained high fee demands. The amc’s apparently do not understand quite yet, it is their responsibility to negotiate with the lender, and negotiating with the appraiser is time wasted. They’ll get the message soon enough. All we appraisers need to do is upcharge for the additional regulatory burden of working with amc’s. I scale up amc charges 100 if not 200 more than direct. Amc’s obviously want that to go the other direction. If the medicine is good, they can drink it first.

You’re missing the big picture Wayne. It’s just business, don’t take it personally and if you the pro appraiser cannot best the lackluster sales position of these easy money professional slacker amc outfits, it is you who should go to Dairy Queen instead. I find it equally remarkable that these amc outfits could actually sell an appraiser on selling themselves short. Not all appraisers who work with amc’s help them in the end….  I’m busy setting a new high across the board for servicing fees. What’s your contribution, a boycott? Sorry, still not effective. Try something new. The goal is effective income, the solution is effective negotiations and firm positioning.

Thanks for your comments Mike! The most recent info that I can find is that there are approximately 76,800 total appraisers in the US. The info indicates that only 31% of these do residential appraisals. (US. Valuation Profession Face Sheet – December 2015) This number is decreasing at about 200 appraisers each month.

Lets just say that BANK OF THE UNIVERSE reduces their appraisal fee to one dime and they slap your mother each time they assign you a report? I am sure that there will be some appraiser that will accept the assignment but for the rest of us….we will wonder how they continue to stay in the mortgage lending business!

I do not consider myself to be a leader. However if all of my fellow appraisers will just refuse to accept an AMC assignment until I accept one…lets see what happens to AMCS ! We can stop this Shirt NOW!

There are 254 counties in Texas. About 75 of those do not have any appraiser. VA seems to be leaning toward contracting with an AMC to provide appraisal services. If they go the AMC route then I will resign from the VA panel. Will others resign? If the VA thinks that they have a hard time finding appraisers now, just let them go that route and see what happens!

Mike…our tiny office turns down at least three assignments for each one that we take. 90% of our work comes from Credit Unions and local or regional banks. None of these use AMCs. My goodness, if we were to take on assignments from AMCs, law firms, Government agencies, on and on…there is no way! Of course now that I am ready to retire…I have never had so much work in my life! LOL

True, there IS a lot of overhead. First is the illegal kickback that so many must pay banking executives in order to obtain and keep the account. Typically this ranges from $35 to $75 per order!

Then there is the unnecessary separate office for what should essentially be a low overhead telecommuting business model.

Then their are the excessive salaries and profit taking by the owners.

As for the $400 that the ignorant amc employee quoted above thinks is pretty ‘reasonable’, it is no more a reasonable fee across the board than the criminally low $225 fees were. The FACT that all amcs bid for a one size fits all price-fixed national fee with lenders that falls within a $495 to $550 range caps their ability to pay for their ‘overhead’ with money other than that which should be purely for the appraisal.

Adopt a cost plus pricing model and then talk to us about how high your overhead is. You NON APPRAISER AMC parasites should keep your views to yourself until you learn what the hell you are talking about!

Until TRID is rewritten to correct inherent inducements to abuse, the problem cannot reasonably be fixed.

I don’t agree. The problem are those appraisers that do such work but offer no push back to unreasonable conditions as they are imposed. The AMC model IF properly applied should be no more onerous than the marketing staff that many of us use to employ.

As practiced however, the model has become more abusive than ever now that the larger AMCs have either been absorbed by mega corporation parents such as major title insurance companies, or morphed into so called regional appraiser “franchises”.

We have known what the basic underlying problem is for a long time. Instead of becoming united to fix that problem appraisers remain divided and worse, engage directly in counterproductive actions and postings on the available media forums.

While people that hold your view criticize their fellow professionals, RELS and their ilk continues to commit the same abuses today that they have become infamous for. (as an aside if any from Corelogic/Rels read this know that your ongoing practice of violating Dodd-Frank is coming to an end. Yes this statement IS an outright accusation of wrongdoing on a widespread basis).

While suggesting work at Dairy Queen makes for an acerbic closing statement, it does nothing to improve the condition of appraising today. Similarly the belief that over 80,000 appraisers can simply stop doing loan work is incredibly naïve. They have bills to pay and families to feed.

Slow progress IS being made in addressing some of the more egregious abuses by AMCs and others, but it takes much more effort than the various organizations can achieve with the far more numerous ‘talkers’ doing nothing productive.

Appraisers that are concerned should join their state coalition if it is an active one; as well as the American Guild of Appraisers (AGA) at http://www.appraisersguild.org .

Or, alternatively they can keep posting here and in appraisers buzz and do nothing.

This just in today’s amc response letter:  

I hope you understand that there is a lot of overhead at an AMC, so we do deserve to take a portion of the total fee… what with some appraisers holding reports hostage until they get payed double the fee they agreed to which I think $400 for a typical SFR is pretty good… Our base fee is $400 for … I am not really sure what you are saying when you talk about this stagnation in fees. I have seen the fees in Colorado increase 40% in the past year, so I would say appraisers in Colorado are doing pretty good for themselves.

This is how many amc employees and managers view it. Not surprising, they have no interest in progressing to appraisal licensing themselves.

I just received a solicitation from an AMC requesting that I sign up with them. They want me to send them a copy of W-9, E&O, Sample appraisals (so that THEY can determine if I am qualified) Come on…. Who are these stupid SOBs? After 35 years of experience, a general certification, designations, etc…. I need to submit “sample” reports to some “idiot” who will will determine if I am qualified to be ripped off by them? Really?

Yes…I should have given this some thought before I posted this comment. Having given due thought to my next post.. ..I do not feel sorry for any appraiser who works with AMCs….they deserve everything they get!

LOL!

All good suggestions.