One could simply force separation of improperly co mingled fees… About 15 years ago I was so into it, the new career on the horizon. I had looked into all of that and was like, why spend that much time and money on accreditation, I’m already working right now.

Paying for advisement will skew the picture, it’s simply not worth it. Paying for groups has a benefit, I pay into the one around here, although I never show up.

Trial by fire and the attrition in this industry is appropriately high, it’s not for everyone.

Well that’s easy. Conveniently, when an appraiser seeks to market, they need only scroll down or up on the national lenders list. Then that conversation is a natural event in the course of regular marketing.

If appraisers are actually applying at the amc’s and such, they’re doing it wrong. Amc’s do a lot of marketing on both sides of the coin, you need only turn to the email to get leads on those guys. Meanwhile, the clients worth having appear on the lenders list, and appraisers must reach out and do a little digging and qualification to end up on those lists. Worthwhile effort which will permanently alter and benefit the appraisers career in the long run, direct selling directly to lenders whom assign directly. Don’t forget about the direct part. Did I mention that direct is better, in a direct statement? Directly, it’s true. Direct assignment. Direct.

On a separate note, you mentioned angies list. Same as home advisor, and many others like it, all some sort of spinoffs or mirrors of the dreaded service genie lead generation model. These companies have a long track history now, of omitting valid complaints and criticisms of companies whom have paid for their membership listing services. It’s caused me personally be be ripped off by a company I thought was credible, only discovering they were not due to these clever listing strategies and collusion with these listing companies.

Ready for a set of real critical reviews about these companies? Hold on to your hat, this could knock your socks off.

https://www.sitejabber.com/reviews/homeadvisor.com

https://www.sitejabber.com/reviews/angieslist.com

Wayne, the Patriot Trading Group guys were deep into those issues a few years ago. “The fastest growing companies in the US for many years were companies which; had no overhead, had very few employees, only shuttled service requests, but actually did not provide any real service, product, or material.” They ‘managed labor’ primarily. aka; vulture capitalism, the dark side of outsourcing.

And people wonder why I absolutely object to outsourcing and foreign labor… Outsourcing provides the illusion of gains but primarily services to monopolize industries, reduce worker population, and shuttle a substantial portion of money to the hands of a few, likely overseas ventures.

It’s time to take out the American flag, and wave it high. A resurgence in patriotism is the solution. To be proud of a hard days work, to shame those whom would hire anyone other than a fellow American.

http://patriotarchives.blogspot.com/

Don’t forget the hint at the avm being possibly more reliable. They really outdid themselves on this one.

I dare the same analysts to correlate the use of ‘see addenda’ with their statistical categories.

Further I dare them to correlate repurchase data with these statistical categories over both short and very long terms.

And I triple dog dare them to explain exactly how these admissions in cost and sourcing are not a violation of existing federal rules!

‘Please advise when the cfpb’s fictitious interpretation of C&R will be rescinded.’ Unexpected classics in literary history. Credit to Mike Kennedy on that line.

As long as it does not cost the consumer anything right? The case for a national RICO lawsuit to bring a case regarding violation of reg Z on C&R was just made by this official document!

And…  ‘fresh set of eyes’. As if the underwriter is not looking at it. Oh wait, with the UCDP system they actually are not! 40 a day quotas and such. The bread is rich today.

‘The U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) reported that, according to mortgage industry participants, AMCs typically charge lenders about the same amount that independent fee appraisers would charge lenders when working with them directly and absorb at least 30 percent of this fee.’

They just proved the C&R issue! That would make a notable legal point for a RICO case to pursue the 10k/20k fine, and don’t you know it, from the horses mouth.

I’m with you Mike. The obvious root of the bias, being they only looked at appraisers whom play both sides 20/20, a nifty correlation obviously meant to put the reader at ease.

‘Although our evaluation employs relatively basic statistical comparisons the results provide scant evidence of any systematic quality differences between appraisals associated and unassociated with amc’s. Future research can focus on the incentive and organizational structures of amc’s as well as on the network structure among amc’s and lenders. Such structures might have a substantial impact on appraisal quality.’

No kidding Sherlock, you purposefully removed the samples which would have proved that, the best appraisers do not work for amc’s! Analyze the appraiser whom does hundreds a year for amc’s vs the appraisers whom refuse to work with amc’s. That data was likely in there but conveniently omitted. When you systematically remove data which might indicate a problem, I suppose there will be scant evidence of said problem. Statistical Trickery! And stop capitalizing amc’s, it’s not a proper word.

And not surprisingly, no real digging on repurchase protection risk, boilerplate data, copied language, mirrored statements, outsourced labor indications, or any of that. And that’s why I’m requesting on the new FNMA forms:

Specific line items the appraiser has to answer:

Did you inspect personally?

Did you use any outsourcing data typing, comps sharing, or other development assistance?

Note the company whom supplied this data, and the individuals names, dates, cost.

That would give them something to unpack, and it would be such a whopper, nobody would know what to do with it.

So I finally took the time to read through this, I had looked forward to being able to do that. I know less about policy and meaningful interpretation of data than from before I read this. They’re like advocate minded though, they only care if the loans get funded! 6% is a damned fortune, wow. They called this one a long time ago. Amc’s, keeping appraisers ‘independent’ since 1996. They got all this borrowed glory about amc’s being around since the 60’s. A total lie, maybe 1% of them were, and there is absolutely zero similarity today compared to their old business models.

Well that was sure a glorious waste of time. Except that it provides meaningful insight that they’re well aware there is a problem!

What you say is true. However in the world that we all live and work in that simply won’t happen. Human nature. The best we can hope for is that the larger groups will find common cause and work together.

In our experience, state coalitions have the best feel for what ails (most) appraisers in their individual states. Each states appraisal laws vary from a little bit to a lot. We have always supported individual coalitions. We’ll work to help appraisers with them, or in spite of them (a very few states ‘coalition’ are purely self serving).

The concept of a national coalition comprised of state coalitions is one that arose from diverse group conversations where a suggestion for a retained lobbyist was proposed. AGA opposed that concept completely since our experience is professional lobbyists only add to costs (hugely-though the one present in the conversation declined to opine total issue-specific fees beyond his expected retainer) and our parent union already acts as a ‘lobbyist’ without added costs beyond dues. Some participants recognized (& voiced)  inherent opposition to unions.

Thus, a national group of state coalitions evolved. Because we know the people and their sincerity & integrity, we reluctantly support the effort though it dilutes efforts and diffuses corrective solutions. It also requires reinventing the wheel in terms of research and exploring national solutions. We hope that the coalition of coalitions will minimize the learning curve to arrive at meaningful solutions and methods of solving all of our problems.

So far they are doing a pretty good job on relatively smaller single issues. We continue to urge appraisers to join their state coalitions; and for those coalitions to be active in the national coalition. Though we think we have a more effective method, we will not undermine their efforts out of petty spite or false perceptions of ‘issue turf.’

For our part, we will continue to do what we do best and nobody else is doing. Actively try to defend our members when falsely accused on USPAP violations; or to educate them and mitigate damage when inevitable unintended transgressions occur. To get blacklisting reversed and to directly engage with  AMCs or lenders that are still violating appraiser independence. That and to provide benefits to our members such as free two year community college tuition.

Yes, we charge a fee (dues). In our honest opinion it is the best bargain appraisers have going for them. Unlike E&O which is perceived as nothing but deep pockets and an invitation for complaints to be filed, we have appraisers backs. WE will fight for you.

Y’all know the rest…contact janbellas@appraisersguild.org for more info.

the question you have asked in the above post is a serious one. If I remember correctly you had written an article on APPRAISERBLOGS where you referred to the number of various appraisal groups. I believe that you quoted a number which included all of the different appraisal coalitions, organizations, groups, etc. I believe it even mentioned the AGA. At the time I read that post I remember thinking that we have so many different groups and organizations representing appraisers that NONE of them can make any difference at all. This very old “game” of “my” certification is bigger than yours or “my” designation is bigger that yours has not served any of us very well. It seems that most of these “groups” have just become providers for continuing education classes and to sell books. Each group “pretends” to be the best and offers up designations which “always” require that a member continue to pay dues or lose the designation. Our industry exploits each other by selling newsletters, educational workshops, coaching, expos, and on and on. I suggest that appraisers NEED ONE group to represent all of us. This should be a group without designations and no intimidation games!

If we were all united under a common banner we really could make a difference. This group could write and “approve” a fair engagement contract. The members could agree to “require” that this engagement contract be the standard for all of us to work under while dealing with AMCs. The AMCs would either accept this agreement or our members would refuse to accept work from them.

REALLY…..if we hit them in the wallet they will listen to us or go broke. I would prefer that they go broke, but I understand that some appraisers need to work with them. This new organization would not spring up over night but I think most of us realize we need to do something different.

You are absolutely right Wayne.

Then I wake up and am faced with the question

“What can be done to get all (cross that out); most (cross that out) many (cross that out too) SOME appraisers to think AND act alike with a shared common position and objective.” I am absolutely amazed at our collective ability to keep shooting ourselves in the foot for the strangest reasons.

if appraisers were to just band together and let our local lenders know what is going on this crap would stop. Lenders are told by AMCs that they can and will take care of all the appraisal requirements of the lender at no cost to the lender. The lender is lead to believe that we all enjoy working with AMCs and there is no cost or effort required by the lender. Gee…no wonder the lender wants to go the way of an AMC! When the lender is told that “I will be happy to work with you” However I will die and go to hell before I work with an AMC…That is when the lender will begin to understand why with a hundred local appraisers they are having some lowlife from three counties away doing the appraisals. We will never get rid of those in our business that will work for chump change and/or slap their mother if an AMC says for them to do so. There will always be some that work with AMCs but the rest of us should have some pride and integrity and stand our ground.

I know these comments will make some angry but for those…look in the mirror and you will see the problem!

Wayne, you really hit on something there. Run ANY google search today and GOOGLE decides who to leadoff with even if they have nothing to do with what you searched for. Search by city for a vendor and they will STILL give you their garbage list.

NOTE to advertisers I NEVER repeat NEVER select the top 5 to 10 Google or Bing referrals. NEVER. Note to service contractors IF you sign with a referral service instead of answering your own phones I will NEVER select you. NOT EVER. I seriously RESENT third parties wasting my time and interjecting themselves into my business needs. How DARE they presume to know what I want and waste my time?

I wonder…could borrowers feel the same way? Is a borrower that interviewed and selected their own appraiser going to be as upset if value is lower than expected than one who had an appraiser foisted on them? We have allowed TAF; and other regulators to assume no conversation between appraiser and borrower about value can ever be open and honest. THAT is wrong. We used to educate borrowers. They used to give us helpful information.

My sister, now retired, described to me how these “third party” companies would call the glass company where she worked. A store at the mall would have a plate glass window or a display case, etc. become broken. Instead of Dillard’s, or JC Penney calling the local glass company…OUT of the blue would be this “third party” company calling to order the repair. This “third party” company would want someone to drop everything going on in their world and rush to repair the glass. However, an estimate of the repair must be submitted before any work could begin, a store manager must sign any work order, etc, etc. and payment would be make to the glass company promptly within 120 days! That is if you crossed all of the “T’s” and dotted all of the “I’s”.

My son works for an HVAC company. He told me today about the “third party” companies that were calling their company wanting to place AC repair work orders at the mall and elsewhere. Someone from Mars wanted to know when the repair would be made, how much it would cost (OH, NO…TOO MUCH) etc. This CRAP is not just happening to appraisers. Have you watched the TV commercials about ANGIE’s LIST? I have said it so many times that it really is getting old…THEY CANNOT MANAGE APPRAISERS IF THEY DO NOT HAVE ANY! The SOBs cannot put in glass or repair HVAC systems if they do not have people willing to do the work and split the fee with them.

COME ON…let’s STOP working with these AMCS….if we do not do this fairly soon…not many of us will be working. Oh well, just my opinion, yours will differ!

“Perfect” market…review the definition of “market value” again.

Agree James. My point was that we have NO IDEA what the numbers are because neither FNMA or anyone else is reliably tracking them from the perspective of how many are ordered as opposed to completed and then delivered to FNMA.

As for pressure? Absolutely! It is FAR worse than it ever was pre HVCC. Pre HVCC we all knew how to say “no” and most of us did. Notable exceptions were Countrywide and WAMU (later years) products where FDIC determine dover 90% of appraisals were BAD!

The current system allows institutional pressure to be applied to individual appraisers where before it was usually limited to individual loan officers at correspondent lenders. The kind that would leave you every six months only to come back the following year.

Today refusing to do what CoreLogic wants can cost you your license. Refusing to do what Wells Fargo wants, likewise. Their sheer size makes them difficult to rebut or seek fair treatment. The current practice that “Everybody does” of just correcting a report and then sending it out as if it were the original and only version is an expectation of AMCs… which leads to nuisance revisions as well as those that may be necessary.

In typical FNMA fashion, I think Mr. Dawson is arrogantly (or ignorantly) thinking that FNMAs statistical data is meaningful and that they have ‘discovered something’ nefarious.

(1) The real estate market does work.

(2) Not all buyers are stupid enough to offer to buy above market value.

(3) Not all AMCs or independent/correspondent ‘Loan Officers’ are honest beyond reproach. Appraiser shopping is nothing new.

What magical number does Mr. Dawson think would be a “norm”? 90%; 80% or 70%? Less?

Fact is FNMA doesn’t know what the hell they are talking about in this regard. Let’s not accept whatever they say blindly without asking meaningful follow up questions. (not you, whoever wrote the article he was quoted in).

According to Zachary Dawson of Fannie Mae appraisers hit or exceed the contract number 97% of the time. He opined that either real estate is a near perfect market or there is lender pressure.