Valid questions. I’m not a pessimist and would like to read the response but crickets so far unlike the initial response.. Erring to the side of caution of those bearing gifts is a pretty safe bet when trying to reinvent the wheel especially in the present environment.

This guy sounds really trust worthy and responsible. Checks out.

Another highlight how systemic training deficiencies in this industry, brought unethical people to the forefront for promotions, rather than being shuffled away to the back where they belong. I’m sensing an amc employment factor. Only in mortgage lending could someone feel justified saying hard work and attention to detail no longer has value, while insulting people for having those values.

You got me. I just realized, thanks to your astute observations, I am guilty of all especially pitiful. I’ve been wondering what is wrong all these years and can’t thank you enough.

If you are spending more than 3 or 4 hours on an appraisal assignment, you are lazy, slow, and pitiful. No wonder you guys only do 1 appraisal a month. You over charge, and you are frigging slow. Good luck.

I don’t know where you are appraising out of but there is no way I am able to complete an assignment in 3 to 4 hours and I started in this business when the secretary was typing the reports and had to travel to the photo shop to pick up my pictures then glue them into the report. As far as VA is considered, they are paying a fair price. The fee is based on submissions from appraisers that can be verified. and not some figure they randomly picked. The LGO out of Cleveland is a very well educated appraiser who came from the private sector. He is ALWAYS looking out for the veteran. The same is true of the head of valuation in Washington who is a 3rd generation appraiser. No one is screwing anyone.

100% correct. Too much time to complain because no work.

Very good points and I’m still waiting on the response that I would like to review.

Very good points and I’m still waiting on the response that I would like to review. Sadly, I wouldn’t hold your breath.

Not going to lie. I looked your name up as well. I assumed you were not the drummer. Would have been cool. ON a side note, an appraiser that is close to me appraised the house of Grohl.

Agreed. The list is dwindling by the day of AMC’s that will actually pay us C&R fees and value our services. I think some start out that way, but ultimately get sucked in to the bureaucracy and rhythms of the industry. I’m sure greed becomes a component with the long-term prospect of selling off for all the money to likes of Class. Who knows, at this rate I’ll be gassing my lawn mower too.

And you Sir, are an observant one. This is indeed a pen name. Years ago I had a doppleganger style run in Las Vegas who swore I was him. It was even funnier to me because I knew who he was (huge STP fan), so I’ve ran with it over the years. If I bust out anything, it’ll be a solo on a pair of stacked Marshalls, lol.
Cheers brother.

There might be a few good amc’s out there. After clearing through something like a hundred of them over several years time, basically the entire TAVMA list at the time, I gave up. I kept trying for a while but never once ran across an amc with a fixed rate billing for their side services, which over time became my top priority, to escape the financial incentive to drive my fee down.

I wrote a piece a few days back in the $3 review thread, about how lenders used to simply hire qualified appraisers for all appraisal review services. Sure the lenders save a few minutes and a few dollars with all the third and fourth party outsourcing, but this causes tremendous operational and efficiency drain on the appraiser. Just so they can write one check instead of two, and save five minutes.

Are you using a pen name? Certainly you’re not about to bust out goat style on an advanced drum set. Or maybe you will…

Such was a common theme of many of the legal pages regarding the issue.

Lack of manpower to investigate what is often right out in the open, but difficult to prove legally.

Okay. No one is going to stop them. CFPB does not care unless it will make a big headline and cost someone hundreds of millions in fines that won’t get inforced or arbitrated for less or dismissed in appeal. I don’t have a smoking gun e-mail anymore, nor dates of phone calls.

Research keywords; Are kickbacks legal in lending. / (optional add on;) , wine and dine
(top hit)
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/12/2607

Here is a recent one which mentions dinners and events.
https://doeren.com/viewpoint/cfpb-issues-respa-kickback-penalty

Check this one out.
https://www.vivaescrow.com/what-can-be-considered-a-kickback/
Violations. The four words to guard against: “A Thing Of Value”. Cash is a thing of value. A discount is a thing of value. Tickets to the local theater are a thing of value. Here is a general list of violations, considered “a thing of value” that everyone should be aware of. Most of this is aimed at the interrelationship between escrow, title and real estate broker/agents.

Hey don’t a lot of the big amc’s offer title services as well, and a great many other services beyond just ‘appraisal management’? Didn’t quite a few title service companies purchase amc companies?

Let’s examine this; ‘A discount is a thing of value.’
Ethics rule / Management / / An appraiser must disclose that he or she paid a fee or commission, or gave a thing of value in connection with the procurement of an assignment. / Comment: The disclosure must appear in the certification and in any transmittal letter in which conclusions are stated; however, disclosure of the amount paid is not required. In groups or organizations engaged in appraisal practice, intra-company payments to employees for business development do not require disclosure.

Isn’t that awesome. Rules that apply through the entire lending and related communities, mysteriously do not apply to the amc appraiser relationship? Discounts are broadly recognized as providing a thing of value everywhere else, except appraisal? Good thing USPAP only applies to appraisers, not appraisal management companies. (hint hint)

Every day I say to myself; This will be my last day in this lawless industry. Great blogs commentary draws me back. Another order hits, then another, and another. Even though I do not market or even answer the phone anymore. One of these days though…

Baggins,
Thats horrible. If you’ve been doing this racket for long enough you’ll have handfuls of these stories.

I did a VA appraisal some years ago, and the same bank wanted a different appraisal on a different property. I declined due to their conventional fee being low and ridiculous. They went back into the VA appraisal and tore it apart for weeks with frivolous revisions ; “comment on the nearby Indian casino impact of the value for the subject”….We don’t have any in Colorado but you get my point of how petty they were.

The box checking AMC’s that ‘QC’ the appraisal before delivering to client have 2 revisions. A week later it comes back from the client with 5 revisions. Then again 3 days later to address this and change that. Then post funding 2 months later the investor wants you to add 2 comps. its endless. This is among many reasons why a charge what I charge and do what I do.

I’m not going to be a hypocrite, I still do a few appraisals for a very small few select AMC’s. I charge $800 FHA/Conv, and they understand and pay it, or don’t and move on.

That’s funny Eric. I’ve got a fun story. One of my last amc orders, clocked me at $2 an hour, or at least that’s my best estimate. No kidding. Everyone in that office ran an admin review, and they all came up with something new, because nobody was qualified to review and had no clue about complex market factors, a-typical housing, or custom alterations. It was apparently my fault the home owner made all these changes to the property. Every single day, another person touched the report, and as they were on quota systems and required to find something, every single day for weeks I was pushing another revised report. Every worker in the office. Then the agents. Then the manager. The underwriter. I had a twenty page addenda.

At one point they were telling me I was to be the one to demand the home owner remove a mother in law kitchen from the basement in order for the loan to get processed, and (get this) they told me to just tell the guy he can re install the kitchen after he gets the loan. There was a counter offer nobody told me about and it was my fault for not reporting on this.

24 hours, 48 hours, 24 hours, 48 hours. it’s like I’m communicating with a parrot, except I’m the one in the little cage and nobody ever lets me out for a snack.

Working with a qualified appraiser manager and their well trained staff for a reputable lender whom assigns orders directly to the appraiser at consistent fees is a true night and day difference. I’ll never go back.

Dude said; ‘three to four hours, tops.’ Talk about detached from reality. Or maybe he lives in the heart of the city and takes elevators to provide appraisal services on perfect square boxes with plentiful comps, mere minutes away from the home office.

Mr Ford posted a far more realistic break down just the other day;
https://appraisersblogs.com/appraisal-management-companies-amcs-violating-tila-and-customary-and-reasonable-fee-clauses/#comment-40067

Let me break this down for you; 1-3 hours MLS research and workfile development. 1-2 hours drive time. 1-2 hours inspection and comps. 6-12 hours desk write up time. Approximate 1-4 hour variable flex time for revisions or other unexpected actions. Tag on the average aggregate time loss for yearly taxes and education, even office cleaning.

Two and three a day appraisers using typing services, outsourcing, comps sharing, click and go pre write. May earn a lot, still doing it wrong. I lose intelligence when reading those reports. It’s no wonder so many people think appraisers deserve what’s coming, these volume flippers make the rest of us look bad. Lenders may just need the number to process and accept a minimum standard, as they offload all the risk and liability down the line. Others expect more. Duty of care arguments and professional negligence arguments will one day be far more applicable than they have been in recent times. Most of us could likewise complete a 3-4 hour appraisal. We chose not to.

SumthiinU said it! He said the magic word; Clearinghouse.

Every single appraiser in this country should have read this before, and should also take the time to read this again today. I re read this just the other day. Unbelievable contrast. Everything we’ve been calling for, the problems of this industry, alongside many workable solutions. Some things have changed but some things have remained the same. The IVPI, Independent Valuation Protection Institute, was to be the clearinghouse mentioned. No amc’s would have been necessary. The entire GSE system would have been similar to round robin VA systems today. Think about it. Give this a read. Print. Save. Reference.

Missing the IVPI proposal yet?
https://www.workingre.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/IVPI-Proposalfinal.pdf

No kidding, wow. I voluntarily left. I’ve never fielded as many phone calls and emails. Many of them were thanking me for being the only VA appraiser that actually answered the phone and returned all emails. Hounded by the mortgage people whom flaunted the exception to the separation of mortgage production rules which they were entirely familiar with as their majority work came from non VA origination. They relished in such. The attitude of the lending communities which subscribe to the amc model, they no longer have to worry about ethical push back from appraisers. Keenly aware that VA appraisers have nowhere left to turn, so they push them around too.

On to the aspect that people in the lending world were from the same outfits which most appraisers could not access outside of the VA panel, because they had long since subscribed to the amc model. Providing service to these same lending companies whom outside of the VA model, allowed amc’s to destroy the appraisal industry, had no hesitation or ethical concerns what so ever about cutting appraisers out of fair compensation and fair dealing, defrauding consumers with junk fees.

VA appraisers exist some where in between, in the nether, on an island, and the tide is rising. Looking away does not solve the problem. Either the amc industry breaks, or the VA will fold and adopt the model. The fact the VA has to date never folded to the amc industry is a testament of how corrupt the other GSE’s are, and the ‘stake holders’ that influence their policy decisions. TAF, as usual, remains asleep at the wheel, answering to the same stake holders.

So it’s not surprising that the new appraisers whom landed those VA slots, while having worked within the amc industry on the other hand, provided a level of service that contrasted against traditional expectations. They’re getting twice as much, while simultaneously continuing to subscribe to the cost cutting and outsourcing promoted by the amc industry.

Where did the VA think the replacements were going to come from anyways, when the VA was the last safe haven for sustainable work volume and professionalism in lending origination? The VA GSE should have done far more this entire time to not just protect veterans, but also the general public from the amc industry. They could have issued policy advisement or ethics statements why they do not use amc’s. But then that would have highlighted the corruption, so they remained silent instead.

One wonders how many lobbyists and promises the amc industry has sent the VA, the volume of pandering must be truly astounding. It’s right there on the table, waiting to be taken, over half if not more of every appraisal fee for the entire VA apparatus. They consistently push 500k loans a year, sometimes far more. What’s 500k x a $450 appraisal fee rake = 225 million, the first year alone. That’s not even close to how much the amc industry took away from appraisers on a yearly basis, for their injection via fannie, freddie, and hud. They stole futures, destroyed an entire industry. They’re coming for non lending work next. The amc industry is not just going to let all the legal work sit there and not try to touch that too.

People like Sam Bankman and Bernie Sanders really missed the boat. There were entirely legal avenues to setting up pyramid schemes, they could have started an appraisal management company instead of landing in prison if they wanted to defraud everyone and walk away scott free. They’d still be in business today. The money keeps rolling in, consumer appraisal fees go up up up, the appraisers fee never moves, as the appraisal management companies scope of service and influence expands with an increasing pace. Can you still call them appraisal management companies when they provide dozens of other services necessary to mortgage origination as well? Are they even practicing within the authorized scope of their limited amc licensing?

So in the context of this thread; An amc or amc like company whom is claiming to limit their injection to the process, with fixed rate billing, is indeed a welcome action. If the amc industry is not going away, we can take a small victory that at least one of them two decades later has been able to figure out a standard fee for their services. The amc industry knows how much an appraiser should be paid, but can’t quite figure out what they should charge, so they pocket the difference instead. Who’s still buying this?