It does work.  I used to work for attorneys before becoming an appraiser and I have sued people before without an attorney.  The legal system can work for you.

Don’t take it lying down.  Fight back. I have fought back against AMC’s who tried to pressure me to change my values and they backed down.  Don’t be a door mat -fight back.  They don’t respect us because we don’t defend ourselves.

Fellow appraisers, please visit http://mfford.com/html/c___r_fees.htm

Apologies for using my personal site but logistical and time constraints made it necessary.

It is to read a draft proposal for minimum national appraiser fees. I appreciate some believe no one other than themselves should set fees, and I concur. Except, in the real world of today where someone (lenders and AMCs) are ALREADY SETTING your fees. If not directly, then through ruinous less than customary OR reasonable fee competition.

Im interested in your meaningful, constructive feedback as well as comment & discussion here.

For those that insist ONLY regional fees are practical, this same system works for the lowest to highest regions of America. Subtract 13% for low cost areas; add up to 9%+- for higher cost areas.

Operating premises were:

1. AMCs are here to stay. Liked or hated, they are part of the chain now.

2. LENDERS want AMCs to offer one size fits all pricing. This MAY come close to doing so baring complex assignments. Even there, an inferred hourly equivalent is suggested.

3. If WE don’t set “reasonable” minimums for ourselves, then others will do it for us (or to us).

4. Framework allows for and includes inducements for trainees or less than certified appraisers-who have been largely excluded or ignored by AMCs in recent years.

In addition to posting here, PLEASE also email comments to JanBellas@appraisersguild.org

We are going to start reaching out to state coalitions and other appraiser peers groups. We hope to incorporate helpful comments or views in that effort. In the meantime our parent union is already being contacted to see how we can best proceed.

Thank you for taking the time to read and respond. Mike Ford, AGA; OPEIU/AFL-CIO

RA, I agree with a lot of the messages that you post but I completely disagree with the idea that appraisers are the next buggy whip folks to join the unemployed.

If I carry my trash to the curb I am walking on real estate. Each of us are standing on real estate while we read my comments or are treading water with real estate below. As we all know, the whole world is real estate. Real estate has no problems. People have problems! What is my home worth? What is the right-of-way worth that the highway department is trying to take from me? I could write all day long about how many situations there are where people need appraisers. There are “some” people that die and leave ..real estate. Heck, they should leave it to me!

I see where so many appraisers look at only the mortgage lending side of this profession. My little office does mostly residential assignments by choice. Some folks think I am bragging (which I am not trying to do) but there is more appraisal work out there than you can imagine. This is NOT a dying profession! When you do not want an assignment and quote the client a higher fee hoping they will go away, they say…gee, ok if that is what it takes! Really, should be no buggy whip folks in our group.

It seems that I have blogged more than most. I am sorry for expressing my opinions so often. I thank everyone for putting up with my silly rants and I wish everyone the very best!

It’s not just the VA that’s dictating the appraisers fee. It’s the VA, HUD, & AMCs as well. You’ll find the answer to your question within your own question: To be more specific: It’s “the duma$$ appraiser(s)”. To be even more specific it boils down the the fact that all other professions are smart enough to organize and protect their fees which truly does make appraisers the Ace Of Aces when it comes to dumba$$e$. They’ve had the power all along to control their fees but are too lazy and self centered to boycott AMCs, the VA, or HUD to take back control of their fees. Show me a another profession that has demonstrated such selfishness, negligence, and ineptitude and I’ll show you a profession that has long been extinct.

In the long run the fee grab will be seen as nothing more than a distraction as residential appraisers will be rendered obsolete. Appraisers have a great deal in common with the obsolete Mechas in Steven Spielberg’s film Artificial Intelligence. Your fees will continue to be harvested (like obsolete Mecha body parts) as intelligence more powerful than IBM’s Z13 (real world…not Hollywood) comes online. When the Z?? is introduced and they’ve collected enough data from appraisers, you (the appraiser) will be invited to bid against Realtors and home inspectors for $50 to $100 walk through orders. To summarize, you are being driven into The Land Of The Obsolete by your own clients (banks) and paying out 50% of your fees each month for the privilege.

All is not lost however; these folks will welcome you with open arms when you reach The Land Of The Obsolete:

Lamplighters
Bowling Pin Setters
Switchboard Operators
Travel Agents
Super Market Cashiers
On Air DJs
Milkmen
Type Setters
Photo Developers
Elevator Operators

The Good News
Appraisers managed to revive a profession that died out in the 1800s (Leech Collectors). Since 2009 tens of thousands of appraisers have struggled to compile contact data for leeches (AMCs) across the country. Leeches were once all the rage for those who administered bloodletting. Oddly enough, appraisers who collect these modern day leeches are the ones volunteering to have their blood drained each month.

Gigolo Joe

At the request of an appraisal organization I am a member of I did send a letter to the VA discussing an increase in fee. I only do about five VA assignments each year so personally I do not give a hoot. Explain to me again as a US citizen and a certified appraiser and a Veteran that the government dictates my fee as a professional providing a service? Does the VA demand that a surveyor only charge so much? How about a property inspector, insurance agent, mortgage broker, pest inspector, Realtor, etc…..tell me again WHY the dumba$$ appraiser is the only one whose fees are determined by the VA? Tell me again why the appraiser must extend credit to any bozo mortgage broker and then have to chase them for months to get paid? Really? Welcome to the VA panel! Tell me again why any certified appraiser who is a tax paying citizen of the US must beg to be on the VA panel? They meet the qualifications, why should they have to beg like I did for 12 damn years? An honorable discharge with a general certification and it only took me 12 years to get on the VA panel. Do you suppose there is a problem? Does the VA need to make some changes?

How about FHA? These folks somehow think that appraisers are a dime-a-dozen and should slap their mother if FHA says to do so! I do not think so! I have been on the FHA panel for decades and have watched their “guidelines” go from pitiful to ridiculous! I am not going to crawl thru an attic or fight the snakes in a crawl space. Not going to happen, they need to back off NOW or look for themselves a new job!

I have stock in FNMA….. We should close them down immediately, if not sooner, I will donate said stock to St. Judes! Whatever it takes to shut them down! They need to be flushed….just my silly opinion!

Now, all of these silly appraisal organizations with their stupid “designations”. GEE…I am an ABC, you are only and XYZ. Really??? Who knows, who cares…IT REALLY IS A CROCK…but that is only based on a lifetime of experience! Pay and play if you are willing to waste time and money. Just my opinion…yours will differ!

There are some of you that are buying “AMC directories” and completing applications to be hopefully accepted to this exploited “panel” of approved suckers! There is absolutely no point in wishing you well. I could wish you well without it costing me a dime….but that is a downhill train. I just want to tell you so!

This is a strange business right now. We have an appraisal community that is aging and clocking out at about 3% per year and damn near 0% joining up. I personally know many appraisers who are certified and have no interest in appraisals. Some of my “friendly” competitors ( those who do not give a damn) are in their 70’s…..APPRAISER TO DO THIS AND APPRAISER TO DO THAT????…Really? It really is funny to wait and watch what will happen within the next three years. One thing I know is that paying fees, dues, subscriptions, etc. is a waste of money. But if it makes you feel better to attend a seminar where folks who have never prepared an appraisal explain how you should…go for it! LOL

The only item I  disagree on is need for government agencies to intervene. Government agencies created the low fee monster and “C&R” ambiguity  (intentionally). 

So, for five+ years we  have tried to get AMCs regulated; monitored, filed complaints and tied to get fees modestly raised and turn times reasonably increased. We have done it in  our usual, “independent” fashion, and the results or lack there of  shows.

Hypothetically IF we  all stopped putting up with the abuse, it would cease. No argument there. If THAT were possible, then there would be no need of state coalitions, or the  Appraisers Guild.

Lenders suppress the  amounts they pay AMCs. Even when an AMC says they want to pay higher fees, they just don’t have it. Heck, we tried to get a desk review fee for Collateral  Underwriter issues approved and lenders response is that they expect all such issues to be handled within the $450 fee that particular lender pays the AMC. Most pay  $495 to $499. No price fixing there!

Ultimately C&R will have to originate in the amounts lenders contract with AMCs for.  I think it takes regulatory pressure to  forbid them to contract for amounts that are too low to include  C&R fees.

A boycott MAY one  day become necessary, but before that happens WE as appraisers all have to be on the same page as to what constitutes MINIMUM “reasonable” fees for  basic assignments.

Otherwise they just keep playing us off against each other.

BTW Wayne, I just reread all your posts. Some good stuff in there. You SHOULD take Desiree up on her offer to publish some. It helps us all.

Please allow me to continue my rant for just a minute or so longer. About a year or so ago I prepared an appraisal of a couple hundred acres of timberland/flood plain for an Agricultural Financial Agency. This is the only assignment I had ever accepted from them and it was a PITA. Of course the usual 90 day chase the check game was played! Last week I received a letter from this AG Financial Agency indicating that as a “member of their panel” I would have to take USPAP. (REALLY, these folks actually sent me such a letter) They advised about a page of Blah, Blah, Blah and then stated that THEY would monitor my integrity as a member of their panel! I was told to sign the letter and return to them. Who are these bozos that plan to monitor my integrity? ( I hope they hold their breath waiting on me to sigh and return such an insult) Does anyone believe that they send such letters to home inspectors, surveyors, etc? OK, end of rant!

With about 35 years of experience and a general certification behind me I just really have a problem with a processor or underwriter at a bank giving me a ration. These people do not have enough authority to take off work 30 minutes early but they think they can dictate guidelines to appraisers?

I do understand that not all appraisers are busy. If they would just take the time to check out other markets they will find that appraisers are needed in many areas. I could write a long list of sources for appraisal assignments that we (both of us) could not possibly even apply too, much less provide services too. If an appraiser is hungry in this market he/she needs to look in the mirror at the problem. Again, not being ugly…just as truthful as I can be.

With this in mind, the part that makes me angry is that some of my fellow appraisers grovel at the feet of AMCs, etc. that rip them off on a daily basis and do not see that as reality. We do not need a government agency to set C&R….just stand on two feet, quote your fees and they can pay it or they can find a new career. Mortgage lending is not the only game in town. If bank of the universe cannot find a $400. appraiser they WILL pay a $750. appraiser before they lose that loan. If appraisers would just simply say no, or price an FHA appraisal at about $1,500. we will absolutely see some changes there! FHA will do away with all of that crap or it is those government employees that will be looking for a new job. We have plenty of work, let them find theirs! Maybe I am dreaming, but, I am old and gray and turning down more work than I could possibly do anyway. I wish all my fellow appraisers the best!

Hi Wayne, not sure what I was in my post to make you think you made me mad. I assure you I’m not, and wasn’t. Anyway; likewise intent was not to ruffle feathers.

I get and generally agree  with your point. The exception is that banks are CURRENTLY drafting or have already proposed seeking regulators permission to fund loans PRIOR to receiving appraisals. It was unclear whether they would then get appraisals post funding or not. Which is a ridiculously risky system.

You and I know we SHOULD be critically necessary components in the process; but regulators have a history of doing foolish things; otherwise we wouldn’t have these recurring problems every ten to twenty year cycle. I long ago learned that absolutely no one is irreplaceable. There are simply varying degrees of inconvenience when “irreplaceable” leaves or passes on.

On another note; Following was just passed along to me by Jason Fischman, SRA (& a whole bunch of other super qualifications stuff). He got it from  Ms Rourke, MAI (O’Rourke?) Apologies on name uncertainty.

“Excerpts from an email (Appraiser Partner News) sent to appraisers on its panel June 11, 2015

======================================

Supervisory Appraiser Change

Upon review, Red Sky Risk Services, LLC has refined its expectations regarding the involvement of appraiser trainees. Important to note, the following change DOES NOT override specific state statute(s) or appraiser training requirements.

Effective immediately, Red Sky is no longer requiring supervisory appraisers to be physically present with trainee appraisers at all subject property inspections and driving comparable sales ”

(end). I believe the rest of her article indicated Red Sky is owned or affiliated with U.S. Bank,

If this information is accurate, this is probably the most significant, and best news to come out of ANY AMC since their inception! Subject to confirmation of fee amounts being ‘reasonable’, this is the kind of thing that would get me interested in doing loan production appraisals again! IF I can send a qualified trainee to inspect the property, I can AFFORD to accept a nominally lower fee!

Anyone in an area where these folks are active, please confirm if you can.

Hey Mike….Let’s do this slowly one more time. I never said that I did three appraisals each day. Yes, sounds good on paper! Really, I am having a good day if I complete one on average. What I said was that I turned down numerous appraisals. I am human, old, ethical, lazy, qualified to do most any appraisal. However, I can only do so much.

I have posted that I do NO AMC work, no mortgage broker work, only work with regional banks, credit unions, about five VA appraisals each year, some governmental agencies and numerous individuals, attornies, etc. What I was trying to say….sorry if it made you mad, was trying to say that we were very busy and still turning down 1 to 5 assignments each work day. Let’s just say one at $450. per day for five per work week..equals $2,250. per week or $117,000. per year. If you do not believe this, you most likely would not believe the actual number is more like 4-5 per day. But, just believe what makes you happy. My total and complete POINT in this is that appraisers do NOT need to grovel at the feet of our clients. They really do NEED us, their paycheck depends on it! I wish everyone the best!

Just one more thing Mike, what if our little office were to accept AMC work? What if we were to accept the large banks, Federal Government, State Highway Department, County, City, Water Utility, School District..Oil and Gas litigation? There must be 2-3 requests per week to “join” our approved list or panel…did I mention that I was old and lazy?LOL

The intention of my silly post is not to brag. Hopefully it will be to inform my fellow appraisers that we, as a group are needed by many entities and we should hold our heads high. These AMCs cannot stay in business unless they have appraisers to feed upon. FHA can demand that we bounce on our heads while measuring houses…if NO appraiser will do this crap…they WILL change or it is them that will hit the unemployment line! Appraisers really should draw a line somewhere!

“BTW lenders have already started lobbying for regulatory approval to fund loans WITHOUT appraisals. They are blaming the need on a shortage of appraisers”

kinda makes you wonder if this has been their plan all along, doesnt it? a lot of things are starting to make perfect sense now. a world without checks and balances. yeah, i see no problem anywhere with that. (sc).

the bleeding continues . . . . .

Sounds good on paper! Three a day? Really?

BTW lenders have already started lobbying for regulatory approval to fund loans WITHOUT appraisals. They are blaming the need on a shortage of appraisers. I’m SURE we can trust those that got us into the last mess to keep us out of a new one, right?

Neither one of us give a silly damn what an appraisal management company wants to do. From what I can tell by my email from the ASC we lost about 500 appraisers this past month… The lenders cannot find enough appraisers to accept their work now. VA and FHA will be sucking wind in a short time… Appraiser to do WHAT? LOL…wish everyone the best!

Gee…another call a few minutes ago….seems the appraisal is critical…Sorry, we can only do so much…lets see 3 appraisals per day times 365 days per year at $450.00 or more… Appraiser to do WHAT??? No, we will not do that! Have a great day!

David….after reading my previous posts I agree that I do indeed sound angry. I am not angry at any particular person. I am mad in general that some of us are treated like dogs! I could brag and tell everyone that we turn down so much work that it is often funny! An email today from a RELO company saying that ‘we must contact owner within 24 hours and return appraisal to them within five days! Really? I spoke with a loan officer yesterday who said that the response from appraisers in our area was either not taking any new assignments or refusal to give a due date. Get it when you get it! I just do not really understand that some in our industry are groveling at the feet of AMCs for chump change and others are giving due dates over one month out! I really am not mad and I am sorry if it comes across that way. Within the last year I have spent one week in Hawaii, another in Hot Springs, another week cruise to Cozumel, leaving Monday for Las Vegas and booked for cruise to Belize in November…Really I am not mad! LOL…All I can say is that I wish my fellow appraisers who feed the parasites a wonderful business! Just a question…why do you do that?

You sound angry at the real Appraisal Coach Wayne. 🙂  I was once after reading his articles and wrote many an angry response to a few articles.  I finally learned to chill out and admire the guy for trying to make a buck somewhere aside from appraising (God only knows there is no money to be made there).  I still haven’t figured out how he made $400,000 or so per year appraising alone with very little help but I won’t pay to find out how either.  I trust my own gut when it comes to declaring the appraisal profession a dead end JOB.

We appreciate the fact that you are boycotting AMCs.

We’ll include your bio with a link to your website at the end of the article. Thank you Wayne.

Thank you. My name is Wayne Courtney and I am an appraiser with Realty Solutions Company in East Texas. Our little appraisal company does mostly residential. We have done the high-rise, national guard armories, oil/gas litigation, right-of-way, wetland, floodplain, etc…,most stuff other appraisers did not want.

Thank you Wayne. If you’d like to get credit for it, please email us your bio. We’ll include it at the end of the article. If you have difficulty emailing us directly, you can use our contact page.