Robin, look for Vivian George in Las Vegas. May or may not still be DBA “Valorem”. Her background is not dissimilar to your own. Outstandingly nice and helpful person / appraiser. Its ok to tell her I referred you. IF you cant find her on your own send me your email address and I ‘ll ask her for permission to give you her number or email address.

Hi Bubba, Wouldn’t it be a dull world if we all felt exactly alike, all the time? You raise valid points…

I guess I am really still struggling with the unavoidable concept of AMCs still, in the first place. Rotational assignments could work as well as anything else, but they’d have the same opportunities for bias that you and I’d never know about.

Even if mandated by regulation, the ‘loophole exceptions’ for distance; turn time etc., etc. would still be so big that if an AMC had a client who told them “This guy has killed four deals in arrow, don’t send him anymore” you’d never know it.

Besides, most trying to circumvent you aren’t even that honest. They’d just make something up about the appraiser being rude, uncooperative, etc.. Last one I had referred to me was out of New Jersey. Homeowner estimate about $100k above appraisal which in turn was only about 25K less than banks owns “guesstimate”. Bank reportedly verbally notified appraiser that owner said he was being discriminated against by the appraiser because he is a [religion deleted] and has an upside down [Icon deleted] on the wall! Even though the entire meeting between owner and appraiser was reported to have been very cordial, with owner even holding an umbrella for the appraiser in the rain!

How can any of us deal with thinking like that? Rotations, merit or as I like to call it just plain old fashioned competency and professionalism aren’t enough if AMC clients are so heavy handed as to think its the appraisers fault when a deal dies, and that by quiet-listing; black listing or refusal-listing they can change that. Lenders are killing themselves as well. Buy backs are being enforced now days.

Personally, I think with the vaunted new CU system, that ALL the past HVCC dictated separation between us and loan production isn’t even needed anymore. They are prohibited from influencing us by law, right? So why keep AMCs? Because they are CHEAPER for banks, mortgage banks and other lenders to operate than having their own appraisal departments!

CU is a “wonder-cure” for FNMA to catch all the high risk (bad) appraisals, therefore why even bother with the alienating separation between brokers and appraisers?

I USED to be able to honestly ask them “Why do you think its worth “x” dollars? Is everything permitted? Do YOU or the agents involved have any comparable data that you wish to have considered when I come out to inspect the property? To avoid delay, can you bring a copy of the contract or escrow instructions with you? The lender did not forward them. “Oh! You mean to tell me there IS a 1,200 SF PERMITTED addition and completely new near rebuild in the last three months that is not shown in public records? Thank you!” All my preliminary data was for smaller, 60 year old houses. That really saved a lot of wasted time. Don’t you miss the days when we actually communicated with principals or the agents involved in transactions?

Why even bother having a data source of verification source in the sales grid if they don’t trust us to talk to people without knowing how to avoid being “unduly influenced”? We ALL learned how to say “no” long ago. That or nothing.

Bottom line? Rotations or otherwise; any system that is not honestly and fairly applied has “heightened collateral risk” associated with the appraisal process.

Not really sure of the specific answer to the problem.
Except the blacklisting or refusal to add listings -JOIN AGA! (*G) http://www.appraisersguild.org

We are fighting that every week. Got a few good things in the works right now. Specifically thinking about over charging appraisers for really minor “offences”. Attorneys can make errors. Doctors can kill people, Accountants can lose your inheritance, Tax advisors can leave you liable for millions of debt yet it is APPRAISERS that have to get hung out to dry???

Will post more as soon as I’m given ok to.

Also, Planning to attend TAF meeting in Redondo Beach, CA 6/26/15. Anyone else going? If so, look for the fat old guy with a constant scowl and say hi! Seriously, I only LOOK grumpy.

prosecuting appraisers for fraud and serious offences i can completely understand, but i know attempts that have been made to prosecute/fine and ruin the livelihood of appraisers and their families, because of differing opinions over minor issues and/or lack of a simple comment or two. i can tell you that it does happen, its scary, its ridiculous, and it is a partly to blame for what is driving our people away. and until it stops . . . . .

the bleeding continues . . . . .

what i like about rotations is that it shows no favoritism. you get approved, you are on the list, and everyone gets the same piece of the pie. it also shows no favoritism on the anyones behalf for the appraiser who hits the number all time or the appraiser who doesnt.

the problem with the rating system as i see it is – if there is an appraiser who always comes in low for example, the rating system could be used against that appraiser because of that issue. now, we can argue that the rating system wont be used in that way, but i will guarantee you that behind closed doors it could and probably does today.

the system should be pure rotational, and if they dont like an appraiser, then they should get rid of him, BUT he deserves explanation. there are AMC’s and banks i dont get work from anymore. i have no idea why, but i sure the heck cant learn anything unless someone tells me why. i am an honest appraiser and i am a fair appraiser. was i always coming in too low? was i always coming in too high? have i been blacklisted for some reason? i have no clue, and it shouldnt be that way. for any of us. i strongly agree, encourage education and not punishment.

the bleeding continues . . . . .

Here is another idea I wanted to throw out to appraisers who may have a few contacts or the ability to raise a little money for a business startup.  Start a Title Company.  I came very close to buying one out in 2006 to diversify and eventually pull me out of appraising completely.  Starting one from scratch is not an easy process because nobody wants to show you how it’s done (beware of those online scam sites too). If you live in a decent sized market (100,000 or more) and you have a few contacts who are Realtors or lenders you can come out smelling like a rose.  The company that we were considering buying was once doing 60-80 closings per month before the manager bankrupted them.  That was with an average fee of $800 to $1,200 per closing.  I learned a lesson quickly (thankfully) by doing my research and talking to quite a few people in the industry upfront.  NEVER buy an existing Title Company due to past liability issues that could bite you on the ask in the future.  Either start it on your own or partner with someone.  Just be forewarned that partnerships increase your odds of going out of business astronomically.

I see four businesses that are logical career paths for appraisers who want out.  Rehabs, home inspection, brokerage, and running a title company.  Of the four you are likely to make far more money in a title company than all others (unless you are a MASTER salesman).

Simply a thought worth considering for those of you who dream of getting out of this racket.

On the article thread- We need to legally recognize that removal from an approved list; being turned down for placement on one, and / or blacklisting are all the same thing, parsed differently to side step regulatory constraints. End result is that the a licensed appraiser cannot work.

I disagree with Baggins about rotations. I prefer merit scoring if it comes down to that, but I have to admit both have pros and cons. I also agree that some level of QC input from the ‘real client’ is reasonable and rational. We are NOT all the same, and expertise should be able to be recognized and rewarded with more work. Perhaps the solution is the underwriter review as suggested by Baggins. Seems to make sense-thought hat also has its own pitfalls.

Maybe we need to reconsider field reviews as well. At one point FIRREA, or an early draft of it called for 10% of all appraisals to be field reviewed. Lenders screamed about costs and delays. Consumers were getting stuck for the fees. Instead, we got second and third tier quality alternatives such as 704 and 2055 drive bys. Like the field review they purported to include most of the same criteria as a review at far less cost (THAT should have been the give away right there). Easily processed superficial secondary analyses do NOT include the depth of research or analysis that a field review does where the reviewing appraiser KNOWS without a doubt there will be a rebuttal; and quite possibly a complaint to the state regulators.

One thing is certain, when one of every ten reports IS field reviewed and the appraiser KNOWS 10% of their work will be closely scrutinized, the instances of non compliant, poor quality work declines drastically. Back when reviews were common, I used to find 15% to 30%+- appraisals were sub par. Maybe 15% to 20% egregiously so (missed values or other very significant factors affecting value and marketability). When I review them today (for QC mainly) I note about 10% fail basic QC (signed; include correct addresses, right description of interest appraised, etc.). My scope does NOT PERMIT in depth review commenting on adjustments, comments or other peculiar omissions of “obvious questions” raised by facts within the reports themselves. IF that scope were broadened, I suspect the seriously deficient rate would climb to 50% to 75% (though still more reliable than AVMs generally).

Last item- When a doctor, attorney or CPA makes a mistake; even serious ones, they are not generally punished for human error. It has to be a really serious ethics breach or extremely rare gross negligence issue before action is taken. Then, the penalty is usually remedial unless its an honesty issue. We are different. Make ONE MISTAKE, and an overzealous regulator can take your license and livelihood away. We need to encourage EDUCATION over punishment for relatively minor errors…even when a value conclusion is affected.

(OK, those that know my posts-you KNEW this was coming!) Join the American Guild of Appraisers (AGA) http://www.appraisersguild.org We are starting to have an impact!  Several minor successes in very recent months that I personally am aware of. We can do MUCH more, but we need your support. Even Bubba Jays and Retired Appraisers. Perhaps especially you folks. Baggins? Robin?

Sure, that’s good.  Remember though, you are in this business to make money.  It is why you go through all this hassle and reading and education, is to make money and run a successful small business. It is not the appraisers responsibility to save someone else a dollar, or a day.  The appraiser is not the last stop for cost savings.  Line them up, knock them down.  Treat them nice when they’re professional with you. Never cross the line. 10 years later, you can jump to legal or probate.  Repeat.  10 years later, repeat again.  In the larger picture, any single appraiser has no less than 1,000 or more potential clients out there, somewhere, in some varied line of work.  Never settle for less.  When clients treat me as replaceable, I remind them through absence, that they are also replaceable.  There is no greater objection than absence. This particular article is about something different though, where the lender and agents clearly crossed the line. Normally they’re smarter than that and don’t actually leave a paper trail. But the content of this article thread happens every day of the week, so don’t have any illusions about this industry being friendly or fair because it is not friendly or fair by almost all standards of judgement. So go ahead, and push the fee and make some money. If they could have gotten appraisal licenses and kept up with this industry, they would have.

Get better.  Sell the service correctly.  Always be ethical.  Your reports will be passed through a variety of channels you’ll never know about, and that will either make or break your over all approval standing.  You’re only as good as your last appraisal, so keep completing what work you can, when you can, and eventually you’ll get more widespread approval.  Until such time as you actually claim sole proprietor, you’ll never know if you could actually make a run of it.  Total startup is only 3 or 4 grand at most.  It’s the daily grind and necessary long term marketing approaches that sends most appraisers packing, or back to those comfy supportive firm environments or supportive positions.  You’re not facing a wall of steel.  You’re facing a personal fear of being completely in charge of your own destiny.  Embrace liberty, or get back in line like the rest of them.  Don’t expect anything nice out of this industry when you’re a sole proprietor, except the reassurance that nobody is in charge of you and your personal destiny, except yourself.  Rule number one is you can no longer live check to check like a regular employee, and instead need to have a longer term financial management plan in place.  There will be busy periods, and then there will be dry spells.  Most would be appraisers don’t really understand the reality of striking out on their own, and they ultimately get crushed.  If you don’t know how to be super thrifty, manage money well, stay out of debt, and be honest regardless of the circumstances you’re confronted with, choosing an appraiser career will do you more harm than good.  You put everything on the line as an appraiser;  your health, your equity, your insurance benefits, your income, everything.  Make it or break it.  Knock, and the doors shall be opened.

You lost me at giving up a portion of your fee for that convenience.  You should not have to pay, so that others do their jobs correctly.  IAll grading aside, you know if you raised your fee to competitive levels same as if an amc is not present, all that illusionary grading matrix would not mean anything.  Raise your fee to the same level as you can acquire in the absence of an amc, say; the same fees as the VA pays.  If Street Links still hires you, you’re right.  If not….  Illusionary grading for pretend employees.  Just because you personally have never experienced a similar issue as this article represents, does not make it categorically untrue.  You’re playing advocate.

I’m with Bubba Jay and Retired Appraiser.  I dumped SL last year.  They were the worst.  They pressured you to “reconsider” the value if it wasn’t what the lender wanted.  The down right stupid and long list of revisions were enough to drive one to the nut house.  I do my research and due diligence, I explain, explain, explain everything.  I DO MY JOB.  In my opinion AMCs are just an extension of the lender, loan production staff, under writers.  I haven’t seen much change since HVCC then Dodd/Frank.

Interesting.

After spending 6 months trying to get appraisal work out of banks I turned to mortgage brokers first.  When a friend of mine went from selling cars to becoming a mortgage broker I visited his office every day.  I eventually became a fixture in the office and was doing precomps for everyone in the office.  Eventually they all began to trust me with my opinion. Many used me for precomps and ordered from others but that was the price I had to pay to get started.  I then started asking those guys to refer me to others.  I took donuts to offices and introduced myself around to every broker that I met.

From the beginning I churned out reports that would put a legal firms documents to shame; elegant covers and binders, linen letterhead and business cards with raised ink, etc. (Digital document delivery ruined that advantage by the way). For years I gave out dinner certificates to bankers and mortgage brokers who took a chance on me as a thank you gift. I later obtained referral work with a prominent bank through a Title Company by offering them a small referral fees. As time went on we obtained a Class A phone number (252-1000) and paid a little extra to use a nice business address for my mail downtown ($50), before launching a website. Chance meetings later led to opportunities with other banks. After a number of years we worked mostly for banks but I found that they paid less and were more difficult to collect from. When two of banking clients were forced to rotate among appraisers I turned to the internet to make up for the loss rather than pursue any more bank work (see above comment). It worked beyond my wildest dreams for several years. We received so many orders from the internet that we were turning away 9 out of every 10 orders. HVCC killed that golden goose overnight.

You’re in a predicament. Banks won’t touch you, mortgage companies can’t touch you, and AMC will rape you plus grind you to a pulp. None of these techniques will work today including the internet.  If you make it today it will be based on contacts that you have within a bank…and I’m not talking about tellers.  You are far better off financially doing AMC work through another appraiser than you are doing them on your own.

Do you play golf with bankers? 
Do you attend social functions with bankers?
Do you network with bankers through business clubs?

If you are truly determined to commit suicide over a five year period these may be the only options you have. The techniques that I used are now illegal or a senseless waste of time.

Breaking out was an incredibly tough job even back in my day.  Your mentors begin to hate you if they learn that you’ve been talking to their clients.  Back in my day we didn’t even have AMCs to reach out to.  You may have a shot with them today if you can promise them ultra cheap appraisals and quick turnaround but you’ll burn out quick working for AMCs only.  I cannot imagine in my wildest dreams going into the business on my own with the requirements that have been piled on since 2009.  Your liability today is at least 20 times greater with everyone and their grandma out to crucify an appraiser.

In my opinion it was the greatest career in the world for many years.  That’s simply not the case today and I only expect things to get worse for appraisers.  You’ve paid a price that defies imagination to get where you want to go.  It’s like you’ve walked from New York City to the Grand Canyon only to find out that they closed it down.  I try to be a realist about this because I’ve had six years to study it from outside the castle wall.  If I were in your shoes there is no way that I could be a realist about it because I would have put in too much time and effort to achieve my dream.

At one time I would recommend that you advertise on websites like AppraiserUSA.com  In 2006 I bought up the top ranked listings in my state in 30+ counties plus 1-3 rankings in several other counties.  I also purchased the top ranked sites on several other sites as well (appraisers.com, etc.).  We churned a ton of business with internet advertising alone until around 2009.  The advertising became pointless after that.  You can try a free listing on AppraiserUSA.com and see how it goes.  It’s still the top searched appraiser site on the web.

Best of luck.  Hopefully you can achieve your dream with minimal effort.

I shared the same experience with Street Links Bubba.  Once upon a time they were a fantastic company to work with.  They paid well, they would listen to your responses and take note, and they paid quickly.  Everything changed over a period of 2 years.  Their constant demands stressed my office manager out so badly she had to be admitted into the hospital.  They (Street Links) were fired the same week.  Life is too short to endure such stress on a regular basis.

The best advice that someone could give you with regard to the appraisal industry is NOT advice that you will even consider.  I remember all to well the excitement of FINALLY getting my foot in the door of the appraisal business.  My advice is to accept the fact that you planted the seed for your appraisal career on top of mountain that turned out to be a Mount St. Helen (there is no way that you could have known).

Count your lucky stars that you aren’t ask deep in the appraisal business and counting on it for your livelihood.  I know it’s frustrating but it’s not worth your time, money, and frustration to even pursue this as a part time career.  I recommend spending a few hundred dollars more and pursuing home inspection if you love houses.  The pay is similar, it requires 50 to 70 percent less time per order, and you can still collect your pay at the door. If you don’t like the idea of home inspection, consider Adobe’s Creative Cloud and get creative.  You can earn a genuine living with it for a measly $600 per year.  It requires no E & O insurance, no continuing education fees, no gas costs, no crazy MLS fees, no kickbacks of $1,000 to $4,000 each month to AMCs for orders, no crazy software fees like Alamode to enter the business, no pulling your hair out from AMCs calling you 3 times per day for a week over something you turned in 5 days ago, and no multimillion dollar liability if you screw up something.

With Adobe you can design everything to webpages, to magazines, to DVDs…all without leaving your home office.  If you go with an online magazine (see xflip.com or flipstyle.com) or a video you can design it once and sell countless copies of your work. I don’t konw about you but the thought of creating something once and selling thousands of copies of it appeals to me. Try doing THAT with a real estate appraisal.

Like I said, consider yourself lucky that you haven’t been able to break into this business.  Best wishes to you with whatever you decide to do.