ANSI Measuring Standard Required in 2022

ANSI Measuring Standard Required by Fannie Mae. On December 15, 2021, Fannie Mae announced that it will be adopting ANSI Measuring Standard in 2022.

Appraisers will be required to use the Square Footage-Method for Calculating: ANSI® Z765-2021 (American National Standards Institute®) Measuring Standard for measuring, calculating, and reporting gross living area (GLA) and non-GLA areas of subject properties for appraisals requiring interior and exterior inspections with effective dates of April 1, 2022 or later for loans sold to Fannie Mae.

For more information, watch this video and check out this fact sheet.

 

Here are some items for appraisers to consider when using the ANSI standard

  • Measurements are taken to the nearest inch or tenth of a foot, and the final square footage is reported to the nearest whole square foot.
  • Staircases are included in the GLA of the floor from which they descend.
  • Basement is any space that is partially or completely below grade.
  • The GLA calculation does not include openings to the floor below, e.g., two-story foyers.
  • Finished areas must have a ceiling height of at least 7’. In a room with a sloping ceiling, at least 50% of the finished square footage of the room must have a ceiling height of at least 7’ and no portion of the finished area that has a ceiling height of less than 5’ can be included in the GLA.
  • If a house has a finished area that does not have a ceiling height of 7’ for 50% of the finished area, e.g., some cape cods, in conformance with the ANSI  Standard, the appraiser may put this area on a separate line in the Sales Comparison Grid with the appropriate market adjustment. The report will be  ANSI-compliant and also acknowledge the contributing value of the non-GLA square footage.

What if comparable sales are measured differently?

GLA for properties in local MLS systems and assessor records may not be ANSI-compliant. The appraiser may not know what method an MLS listing or assessor used to calculate the GLA. Through research and their knowledge of the local market, appraisers determine if the GLA provided through alternate sources should be adjusted. The adjustment process does not change the requirement to report subject GLA to the ANSI standard.

Does following ANSI even reflect the market? Perhaps, adopting the ANSI standard will make the description of the subject property more precise. However, how is this going to help if Realtors, assessors, builders and architects are not measuring by the same standard? Will this create a false sense of accuracy? Will there be a lot more discrepancies once the ANSI measuring standard is used by appraisers for the subject property while the comparable sales are measured by a different measuring standards. And how do we apply the ANSI measuring standard on exterior-only appraisals, desktops, hybrids and 2055s?

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807 Responses

  1. Scott Taylor on Facebook Scott Taylor on Facebook says:

    Measure all you want but unless you are going to pay me another $1,000 a job to go measure all my comps and make sure I have access to all comps then this is a bunch of bs. Apples to apples people.

    45
    • Avatar Koma says:

      The assessors in my areas do not use this standard. Matter of fact I think it is only 3 states where it is a mandatory requirement. I myself do not like the standard.

      12
      • Lane Leppink on Facebook Lane Leppink on Facebook says:

        Koma, what standard of measurement do the other 47 states use? If you’re not a fan of ANSI, how would you prefer to measure a home’s area?

        2
        • Avatar koma says:

          The American Measurement Standard. I don’t now what the other 44 states use. My mentor taught me this and the dozens of others he trained starting back in the early 80’s. This is what I prefer and will keep using.

          6
        • Avatar mike says:

          We measure to the nearest 6 inches (appraisers standard) minus trim or extended walls. all other standards are similar to ANSI. The problem with the ANSI standard of nearest inch or 1 tenth foot is most houses are not perfectly square due to settling and other factors by using the nearest 6 inches it can be adjusted an inch or two to make the house square and if you have a lot of extra sides or angles on one side with additional thickness of trim and angles and a strait wall on the other it can be a foot different from one side to the other. (Using the strait wall for total length would be best.) So, the nearest 6 inches minus trim thickness seems to be a better standard. 4 inches minus trim would round up to 6 inches and 3 inches minus trim would round down to an even foot.

          5
          • Avatar don says:

            Measuring an outside wall to an outside wall is wider than the Inside to the inside wall, also look out for the thornbushes, they also add unwanted width. Measure all four, or more sides and adjust, Appraisers are allowed, Engineers or Architects, maybe not.

            0
            • Avatar Van Wolslagel says:

              I’ve been at this 45+ years. This is not the first time some institution has tried to standardize home measurements. My reports will now simply state; Appraiser has measured the subject under ANSI methodology. Appraiser cannot warrant that comp’s reported sizes were measured under the same method. Further explanation of livable area are made in the comparison sales comments.

              I can see this is going to be very interesting in the near furure.

              Oh Well, it is what it is.

              Van Wolslagel
              Chief Appraiser
              THE APPRAISAL WORKSHOPPE CO.
              Appraisals & Inspections since 1972

              9
              • Avatar Thomas A Temofonte says:

                I like this blurb. Will use something similar.
                This measuring standard isn’t really much different than how we all should have been trained anyway. Banks have been very cooperative, too.
                It will be the private requests that owners will argue I would guess (lower ceilings, gabled walls, etc).

                0
            • Avatar don says:

              Read “Mansions”, a supplement to a National publication. This publication stresses uniqueness, style, privacy, appealing to Architects, and ignoring costs.
              Production housing is supported by builders, realtors, architects, small governments, and small communities, looking for efficiencies and reduction of costs.
              Can we rate appraisers to ONLY Californicated developments?

              0
          • Avatar Van Wolslagel says:

            hey Mike !

            more reason for me to GET OUT OF LENDER WORK.

            6
          • Avatar Chris says:

            Nearest 6″? What if the builder did that? How hard is it to use ACTUAL measurements. I have been for the last 28 years and have had no problems.

            8
            • Avatar David Spurlock says:

              because MOST houses are built to the nearest 4 FOOT increment, as it costs more to cut material down to something less, and all building codes and materials are designed to accomodate that. 16″ on center exterior wall studs fit evenly in 4′ increments. Plywood, the material of choice in modern roof sheathing, is 4′ wide from the factory. Styrofoam insulation panels, too. T-111 exterior siding is as well.

              1
    • Avatar ej says:

      Do not submit to these dictatorial mandates that put even more liability on the appraiser. We are not architects or home builders. We value property. Hopefully, the AGA will condemn this charade quickly.

      17
      • Baggins Baggins says:

        https://cdn.recolorado.com/files/helpcenter/Square-Footage-Companion.pdf?

        So rich to be able to post this. Especially after so many posters on this page were slinging mud and pushing fallacy and false accusation. Come again? It’s not over yet.

        From the Corelogic Matrix MLS system none the less. Claiming RESO compliance! Let’s ask FNMA whom is more authoritative, the RESO group or the ANSI residential measuring standards work group.

        * A bi-level house does not typically have a basement. All three fields should be the same

        Someone should put the RESO group, FNMA, and the ANSI group together so they can clean up this tremendous mess they just made. I’ll bring the broom and popcorn!

        Apparently MLS is not even bothering with the ANSI standard. This document published today; 04/13/2022.
        ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

        Square footage is calculated based on three required fields in REcolorado Matrix. Use this guide to help you determine the correct entries according to REcolorado Rules & Regulations.

        !Above Grade Finished Area (SqFt Above): Above grade and partially above grade finished square footage.

        !Living Area (SqFt Finished): All finished square footage of the property, including the basement if finished.

        !Building Area Total (SqFt Total): All finished and unfinished square footage of the property, including all levels and the basement. The total area within the structure. Building Area Total includes only the primary building. This excludes garages, decks, etc.

        !Basement Yes/No: Indicate if there is a basement or not. Below Grade Finished Area and Below Grade Unfinished Area are calculated automatically based on the previous field entries.

        Basement: Indicate features of the basement, including Full, Partial, Standard/Interior Entry, Garden Level, Walk-Out Access, Unfinished, and more.

        !Indicates a Required Field
        +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

        Oh boy. We’ve got problems.

        1
    • Scott Taylor on Facebook Scott Taylor on Facebook says:

      plus is this the real issue of “bad appraisals”? I would think comp selection should be addressed more than if I missed 200 sq ft of GLA. And according to EVERY agent that 200 sq ft is valued exactly as the the other 2500 sq ft of the house. Who comes up with this crap?

      11
      • Avatar ej says:

        These idiots at the GSEs are trying desperately to improve their database to get better outputs for their AVM. The problem is they don’t know WTF they are doing. All this is a scheme to put all of us out of business.

        41
    • Avatar Gordo says:

      If a closet has a 6’10” ceiling, I am now required to measure all of the closets and subtract them from GLA, but then double dip the measurements of the stairway

      FNMA is becoming useless

      8
    • Avatar sean Joseph poulk says:

      I just do my job and report on the data that is obtainable and verifiable via a reliable source. If the realtors or assesors are incorrect in their reporting then that is a “them” problem. We are able to put very specific disclaimers and explanations of data verification and reliability within our reports and this is sufficient for the CYA requirements. I have been to court and hauled in front of “The Man” and argued these and other discrepancies and had issues dismissed. You are not committing violations or fraud if you are utilizing data from real estate professionals and you make it clear as to the limitations and lack of control you have over data reporting and accuracy of your peers and associates. Just “Chive On” and quit worrying about the industry, we all have much bigger problems, China, Russia, Joe Biden and our corrupt illegal federal government…

      35
    • Avatar Kevin says:

      Completely true. The courthouse, the listing agents, none of them measure to this standard, and we’re lucky if they even measured walls accurately at all.

      And it is insane to try and adjust for square footage that’s below 7 feet, anyway. What does the market think of sloping ceilings?…that you can generalize, but the market is not looking at specific square footage of below-7′ living area.

      This nonsense will require specialized equipment and two people to measure the exterior of even a standard ranch house, given that bushes and other obstructions will need to be avoided (sometimes impossible), and someone will need to hold the target for the laser measuring tool, or a stand will have to be used, where both the target and laser are kept at the same height with respect to the walls of the house, to avoid losing or gaining inches due to angle.
      And my notice on this stated condos were exempt from these standards…general appraisers opting themselves out of unreasonable requirements, while single-family appraisers are dumped on?

      And does anyone’s market, out there, even use GLA as anything other than a general requirement to determine which houses they want to consider buying? Most markets do not consider much past a “small, medium, or large” house, just as they don’t consider the difference between a full acre parcel or a .9 acre.

      Whoever is requiring this tripe has clearly never done this job before.

      0
      • Avatar Chris says:

        “This nonsense will require specialized equipment and two people to measure the exterior of even a standard ranch house, given that bushes and other obstructions will need to be avoided (sometimes impossible), and someone will need to hold the target for the laser measuring tool, or a stand will have to be used, where both the target and laser are kept at the same height with respect to the walls of the house, to avoid losing or gaining inches due to angle.”

        You are joking right? I have been measuring this way since 1994. I have had no problems with it at all. I am able to measure a “standard” ranch to an extremely com custom house alone. All of these obstructions have ALWAYS been around and it is easy to work around ESPECAILLY with laser measuring tools. This is where they really help, you dont have to go in the bushes nearly as much. I have always been able to hit some sort of target. Unless you are pointing the laser at a crazy angle you dont have to worry about “losing or gaining inches due to angle”. Besides the good lasers have a function that will give the level measurement at almost any angle you hold it on.

        0
  2. Avatar CJK says:

    The funny thing is FNMAs computer reviews judge use partly based on what the Assessor has for the size. I had one in which all of the comparables were Tri-Levels. The Assessor called one a two-story, one a ranch and one a split-level. So, the size and style were different for all of them when in reality they were basically the same style house. I had a comment in my report explaining this, but FNMAs computer cannot read the comments. So, I received a lower rating on the review because of the incorrect Assessor data.

    I sometimes wonder why do we even need a sketch in our reports if no on even looks at them? FNMA does not really want appraisers anymore they just need form fillers, they want everything to be the same that is why they are redoing the forms, it will make it easier for the computer to read. Appraisers will now be called “data entry specialists.” Our function will be to feed the computer, feed the computer, feed the computer. 2 – 3 more years and I am done with the BS. After 38 years I am starting feel it. It is no longer fun.

    34
    • Avatar Danny says:

      You and me both brother!

      2
    • Avatar Douglas Kues says:

      ….and just a small step further, and logic says that if agents, assessors, or property owners are not also both using and proficient with the ANSI system…. that all other sources will likely be reported with greater square footage than per ANSI standards. Unless such sources are to be permanently eliminated as “reliable” then it would seem that market reaction to differences will work against the subject in virtually all cases. In addition, if FNMA is going to continue to skim data with consistency a mandatory factor, would it not seem that virtually every appraisal from here on out will be rejected by Fannie for lack of consistency?

      Wanna really scratch your head, think deeply about the Fannie requirement that a solar system cannot be considered in final value if: 1) It is leased; 2) it is financed in any other circumstance that the original purchase money financing arrangements; or 3) there is some binding provision that the secured company or lender cannot foreclose on / repossess any of the solar system components in the event of non payment. So….. unless the subject solar system on the subject is free and clear, and the lender/client can prove it, the property being appraised might as well be without solar at all. In addition, since there is really no possible way to determine “comparable property” solar system status (using the same criteria) then effectively there is no verifiable market reaction to financing of any kind, and forever foward there is no verifiable support for the value contribution of a solar system of any capability at any cost and however effective.

      1
      • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

        FNMA = ‘Peter Principal’

        They have promoted themselves to a place where they are collapsing from the weight of bad decisions. They need a new script and a scapegoat.

        The script is a fairy tale. The scapegoat antagonist as usual is all appraisers. Of course the protagonist /
        savior is FNMA.

        Turn sound off, it’s only music to distract. No narrative
        https://fanniemae.qumucloud.com/view/Gr6xh2x39AI1zQwixnxToA/sidebar/attachments

        FNMA should really take a long hard look at ERC and it’s methods, forms, etc.. They would not be playing in this bizarre fantasy sandbox if they had done so years ago.

        4
      • An appraiser always told me “nobody is that good”! If an inch or two or rounding to the nearest foot will make a difference in your value, then you are fooling yourself as to how good of an appraiser you are.

        18
    • Avatar Dan says:

      Yea I have one like this, 3 houses the same size. One states 1056 SF, one 2112 SF and the other, 1576 SF.

      0
  3. Avatar Jesse L says:

    The appraiser defines the scope of work per USPAP. Hard stop. Disclose, disclose, disclose.

    12
  4. Chuck Minzenberger on Facebook Chuck Minzenberger on Facebook says:

    The county records in the areas I work in do not state which method they use. I’ve always used the ANSI standard when measuring and used my best judgment on the comps, so no change for me. It’s a good thing the GSEs have finally state unequivocally what they want on this issue

    3
  5. Avatar JC says:

    Does this mean that FNMA CU appraisal review process will no longer require appraisers to comment on why their gla is different from the public records/assessors gla?

    CU error code FRE1001: The gross living area for the subject property ([GLA] sf) varies by more than [X]% and [Y] sf from public records ([GLA] sf). Please confirm the reported gross living area for the subject property is accurate and adequately supported.

    8
  6. Virgil Gleason on Facebook Virgil Gleason on Facebook says:

    ANSI has been the standard as long as I can remember, and I started in 1984. Looks like someone is late to the party.

    8
    • Lane Leppink on Facebook Lane Leppink on Facebook says:

      Virgil Gleason that’s exactly the thought going through my head. If Realtors and appraisers and assessors were using a DIFFERENT standard, what would it have been? Since the beginning of time, ANSI was the standard.

      3
      • Avatar CJK says:

        In my market most Realtors use whatever the Assessor has even if it is incorrect. They have a comment in the MLS that says the buyer needs to measure the house. How many buyers’ agents help the buyer measure the house? On occasion a Broker knows something is off so they will pay me to measure the house for them. But for the most part they do not care. In some listings it says the PR was used, but when I check with the PR the numbers are not even close.

        4
      • Avatar Brian says:

        Do you honestly think that many county assessors use ANSI standards? I would bet that the vast majority of the assessed calculations are wrong, maybe not by much but they are not compliant with these standards. So how then are you to apply GLA adjustments if that home has not been measured to ANSI standards?

        6
      • Avatar BA says:

        The ANSI Standard for Home Measurements was ” First LAUNCHED” in April 1996 .
        ANSI is the non profit organization for the voluntary standardizing of many things. American National Standard Institute.
        ” The American National Standards Institute is a private non-profit organization that oversees the development of voluntary consensus standards for products, services, processes, systems, and personnel in the United States. The organization also coordinates U.S. standards with international standards so that American products can be used worldwide.”
        The organization was not founded for the purpose of measuring the GLA of residential properties and are not aware of the problems that the Association’s adopted and promoted uniform measurement system creates on anything with as much diversity, state and local requirements and personal needs or preferences as Residential Real Estate in both construction and valuation.
        There is much more to accurate valuation of Real Residential property than simple standardized measurement. Market Reaction can not be Standardized IMO. What is acceptable and even preferred by one individual does not always meet the needs and wants of another.
        The organization has no experience in the area of Appraisal valuation and/ or market reactions to residential properties. While uniformity and standards may be very beneficial in the Manufactuing of switch plates or after market auto parts or many other manufactured items, Many Standards can not translate into items that have always been and will always be as individual and unique as homes and residential construction,
        Residential valuation and marketing is just as diverse as human beings in many ways. Not all men can be described as 5’8 to 5’10 and not all homes GLA can be stated as Always only above ground or always 7′ ceiling height. And we , no one can have a STANDARD unless everyone involved adopts the same method.

        1
        • Avatar Van Wolslagel says:

          We have sent FNMA a similar information blog, but they refuse to acknowledge they have made a whopper of a mistake trying to make an apple taste like a banana.

          1
  7. Avatar Cobra says:

    “The appraiser may not know what method an MLS listing or assessor used to calculate the GLA. Through research and their knowledge of the local market, appraisers determine if the GLA provided through alternate sources should be adjusted.”

    No I won’t be adjusting someone else’s data and be liable for it? Not happening!

    9
  8. Avatar Seneca says:

    So nothing has changed. It’s the way I’ve been doing it for 30 years

    5
    • Avatar JC says:

      So how do you apply ANSI on a drive-by? How do you measure a 2 story foyer / family room, and how do you know if a cape cod finished areas have a ceiling height of at least 7’ when you are not doing an interior inspection?

      10
      • Avatar Seneca says:

        You don’t.

        “If the appraiser is unable to adhere to the ANSI Standard, the appraiser will provide the code “GXX001 –” in the Additional Features field on the appraisal form and must explain why compliance was not possible.”

        You just add a comment for drive-bys and comparables that it’s not possible without a full inspection.
        Let Fannie Mae sort it out.

        6
      • Avatar Chris says:

        There are comments in ANSI handbook specifically addressing 2055s and new construction

        1
      • Avatar chris says:

        How do you know if a cape cod finished areas have a ceiling height of at least 7’ …..Interior photos….or Look at the sale from outside and use your appraiser skills you are already supposed to have, call the realtor….LOL

        How do you apply ANSI on a drive-by?….you don’t, you use whats available to you and make statements and disclaimers.

        1
    • Avatar don says:

      Some of the houses are older than 30 years Did they RE measure with the standardization?, or what. I know do you?

      1
      • Avatar Kevin says:

        Many of the houses we do are in excess of 100 years old, the construction was barely measured at all, and most of the architecture was built by eyeballing the lengths and distances.
        Still better construction than modern cardboard housing.

        0
  9. Tim Lane on Facebook Tim Lane on Facebook says:

    So, we are now to be going around measuring homes for a drive-by? I don’t think so. My life is worth more than this job.

    4
  10. Avatar CJK says:

    I have a question about comparables

    If the MLS says one thing and the Public Record says something different which one, do you use? Also, if you know that they are both incorrect what do you do? In some markets buyers do not consider a lower level with above grade windows to be a basement. However, the PR might have it as a ranch with a basement, as a two-story, as a bi-level with both levels together, and sometimes as a bi-level with the levels separated. Why does FNMA believe that the PR with its old and incorrect data must be superior to the appraiser who just looked at the property and included current photos and a sketch?

    Which is more important reporting the market’s reaction or complying to FNMA dictates. If the market says both levels (on a bi-level with above grade windows) should be together but FNMA says they want the levels separated for the appraisal which one is in compliances with USPAP? I just had a tri-level with all 3 levels fully above grade, the PR called the lower level a basement. FNMA used the PR for the review and said that I might have an overvaluation. This was totally bogus; the photos clearly show that the LL was not a basement. So, was I in compliance with USPAP by reporting the 3 levels together? If I came before the state board, what would they use? Would they hit me over the head with FNMA guidelines, or would they say good job, you report what you see?

    5
  11. Avatar E Brown says:

    I can’t ever remember coming up, in 30+ yrs, with the exact sq ft of MLS or Tax Assessor records. Realtors here only use what Assessor states. Unless they are using basements or rec rooms that have no interior access. Then it’s All In !

    7
  12. Using the assessor’s standard does not equal using their measurements. Some in this thread seem to conflate those. Using the same standard of measurement for comps and subjects is what is sought. Using one standard for subjects, and another for comps is not credible. Period.

    6
  13. Avatar E J Brown says:

    So, you figure Realtors & Assessors are going to have to measure each listing to ANSI standards ? I don’t think so.

    I guess they’ll have to take some meaningful education.

    3
  14. Avatar CJK says:

    I sometimes wonder if the people at FNMA know what the hell they are doing. LL-2015-02, page 7 clearly states that “Fannie Mae currently does not have, and has never had, a limitation on a single-line item adjustment.” Last week FNMAs computer review said that one of my line-item adjustments was above 10%. So, which one is it? I had a comment in the report about the adjustment, but FNMA does not read the report before they give a warning to the lender and a low score to the appraiser.

    4
    • Baggins Baggins says:

      CU 1-5 risk ratings are going to jump. It will bring even more flags for inconsistent comps modeling. I’ll fail to provide bracketing size, excess comparison by size alerts will be constant. This is the most idiotic proposal I’ve seen in 20 years of real estate. One size does not fit all. What about a large bi level with a full basement? Shall I report a 2 level basement where basement is twice the size of agla credited space?

      Every single report if dealing with garden level will now spark probably at least 10 new EO risk alerts on both the appraisers review software and the lenders. If the goal is to slow appraisers down, confuse consumers, and provide reasons for more regulatory complaints, FNMA hit a home run with this one.

      Question; Do you think zillow, trujilla, and every other data aggregate in this country will apply that standard as they auto map auto import existing assessors data? Will the VA panel adopt this standard? Will HUD also adopt this? NAR? Listing agents? Unlikely. This is interference with professional standards and commonly held performance expectations. Someone at FNMA needs to be fired immediately.

      9
  15. Avatar GB says:

    Complete theft of housing value. Many homes have bedrooms in their older style cape homes where the ceilings are less than 7′. My house for example is a 1.75 story home and has 2 bedrooms on the 2nd floor with a ceiling height is 6′ 9″ and is approx 1750 sf. I have just lost 750 sf of living area in my 1940’s cape and 2 of my bedrooms. Now I have a 1-bedroom house. This is insane, since 1940, my house has been a 3-bedroom, den, kitchen, dining room and living room house, now I have only 1 bedroom? How do I know if the comp I am using has that extra 2″ to make it a 7′ story? Guess my home is going on the market before April. Can’t afford to lose my square foot or bedrooms to this stupid new rule. We have entire houses built in the 1800s and 1700s that don’t even have a single story that has 7’… then what? A non-square foot home? I guess it will no longer conform to Fannie Mae? What a nightmare! I thought people hated me now… wait until I tell them they have no bedrooms and their GLA is half the size.

    13
    • Baggins Baggins says:

      This will create systemic deficiencies in FNMA CU data, excess stipulation and revision clarification requests. If assessors and builders routinely omit stairs data.

      Model matches will not be model matches anymore. Full 1004 service will result in different agla sizing statements. Repeat service will have us magically stating different sizes.

      The previous FNMA standard was something with market standard and best logical reporting for uniform results.

      For people whom think this is no big deal, consider yourself fortunate. There are entire counties where ANSI does not apply. I run a customary simple sketch to verify; ‘generally accurate assessment records’.
      We have entire neighborhoods that consist of only bi and tri level homes, some with actual basements, others not. Garden level is agla state wide in Colorado! They built hundreds of thousands of homes with garden level and equivalent above grade quality for sump pits, water tables, soil conditions along with structural stability concerns, and energy efficiency reasons in the high country. They are often priced marketed and sold equivalent to 2 story units. ‘Typical’ reporting is garden level as agla. Am I supposed to speculate how much agla to cut out of comparable bi’s and tri’s, attribute that to basement and adjust it at a different cost basis? Garden level can literally consist of 1/3rd to 1/2 of the homes total size!

      8
      • Avatar don says:

        Years ago my mentors paced off the size of both the subject and the comps. Our Governor was petitioned and supported county wide publication of Records for Counties over a Million. Realtors used to compete in guessing the size, several tried to include the overhang. Lots of stuff happened, It’s better now, but it still takes effort.

        1
    • Avatar Steve says:

      I’m an Underwriter. Fannie states that “appraisers should include rooms located in above grade finished non-GLA areas in the room counts (Total Rooms, Bedrooms, Baths) in the improvement section and in the Sales Comparison Approach grid to comply with Uniform Appraisal Dataset requirements.”

      In other words, move the non-GLA square footage to a separate line on the adjustment grid and give it a value (if warranted) and continue to count the bedroom or bathroom in your room count (even if that space is not included in the GLA).

      Fannie also says “when there is a finished area that does not meet the ANSI minimum ceiling height requirements, the additional square footage MUST be reported on a separate line in the adjustment grid and a market adjustment applied, if warranted. We require the appraisal report to account for ALL OTHER SQUARE FOOTAGE that is not included in the GLA.”

      This is less about “removing” square footage (Fannie wants every square foot accounted for) and more about categorizing it differently on the grid for uniformity. If your adjustments for the separate line item (non-GLA areas) have a market value equal to that of the GLA square footage, it will be a wash.

      Adapt or die.

      0
      • Avatar Chris says:

        Steve….Well said !!!

        0
      • Baggins Baggins says:

        Naaaaaa Steve, that’s no good, because you still drive up the gross adjustment indicator, even if you balance out the net.

        Try this method instead, as detailed in this post way way way down at the bottom of this page. I had the dreaded tri level w/ basement, 4 total levels, and came up with a great solution.

        It should be considered incompetent practice to drive up anything with false net/gross indicators. That’s not a practical suggestion, although it seems to be the go to suggestion from many an appraiser on this board. It is where the mind goes first, the first logical conclusion. We are forced to adjust it out, so just in turn adjust it back in elsewhere.

        But then you’re left wondering about net/gross indicators and their fundamental importance to be truthful expressions of similarity and or dissimilarity of comparables. It is an illogical thing to think two relatively similar houses should have gross adjustments that high, yet zero net adjustments. It reads like some sort of clever appraisal trickery or fraud. Try this instead.

        https://appraisersblogs.com/solving-the-ansi-measuring-dilemma-a-simple-work-around#comment-34587

        Basically I ignored ANSI, filled grid normally, ran a pdf copy of both grid pages, uploaded them into the report. And then field locked my size adjusts after applying ansi to subject, but not applying ansi to comps. I ran all zero’s for size in the size adjust lines, left room count and room adjusts the same, and then applied my size in a lower line item. Exact net/gross match between the two reports. So I complied with ANSI technically, while snubbing the requirement and I never did apply any size adjusts along the ‘ansi method’. I hopped and stepped over the issue and ignored most of this incompetent non negotiable no opt out ansi dictatorial crap.

        This whole illogical approach of parsing size out in ways not recognized by the local mls, not recognized by local people, not recognized by the municipal building codes which the assessor prescribes, it’s all hogwash. Whomever thought that was a good idea in places nobody else uses this standard is clearly incompetent. Appraisers are supposed to conform to and understand their municipal building codes in their local jurisdictions. To practice otherwise is a clear indicator of incompetency. So there are better methods to suggest.

        The riddle is: How to find a work around without effecting the net/gross indicators…. I came up with than answer though.

        And now FNMA is in violation of Dodd Frank Reg Z, by applying pressure to the appraiser and disallowing our own independent judgment. Wow I thought only lenders could apply that type of unethical hardline absolutist approach to appraisers, turns out FNMA supports pressuring appraisers despite resistance from those appraisers. We have people at FNMA whom have no respect for appraiser independence, and they’re making new rules which harm appraisers credibility and ability to make independent judgements. If there was an appraisal hotline up, I’d call and report FNMA and the ANSI group. ANSI should change their web page, there is nothing voluntary about this.

        The most illogical rudimentary juvenile approach of saying above grade is a literal term. So stupid. Above grade is a general term meant to describe fundamental character and appeal. It takes a special kind of person to call a garden level a basement when all market data, local MLS guidance, and local municipal building codes say otherwise. A more sophisticated approach is what many jurisdictions use, which is recognizing a perimeter and volume based approach when it comes to defining what a basement is or not, qualifiable building area attributable to the generally above grade portions, etc. I’ve never met anyone in my entire life in Colorado whom mistook a garden level for a basement. Because we do not live in a two dimensional world.

        Anyways, I’d bet underwriters are dealing with the aftermath of this incompetent guidance too. Seriously, think about suggesting my method. It’s very simple, requires only simple explanations and it’s basically just directions to scoot your size adjusts down to lower lines, and field lock the adjust areas those size adjusts normally go, enter zeros there instead. Scan in the report prior to doing that so as not to confuse the reader. It’s a clever function within the appraisal software to be able to field lock and over ride warning errors. Regardless though, warning indicators of size different jump in the final report which is xml readable because that’s what FNMA wants, the appearance of incompetent appraisers. Whomever pushed this as mandatory at FNMA should be fired for incompetency and violations of appraiser independence rules. It’s like they are clearly doing it wrong, on purpose. That’s gross incompetency. We all get to clean up their mess. Just fyi, I’m being critical of FNMA, not you. Thanks for participating in this thread. The ANSI mandate is a boondoggle of epic proportions.

        Good ideas do not require force.

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        • Avatar Chris says:

          Baggins…No one cares about net/gross adjustments anymore, so why do you ???

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          • Baggins Baggins says:

            Chris stop being a flaming egotist and speaking for everyone at once in a blanket extra extra extra extra extra ordinary assumption.

            Nobody cares about net gross anymore? Do you even hear the words that come out of your own mouth? All the traders, all the mathematicians, all the assessors, all the tax collectors, the educators, the students, the stock market, the business analysts, the budget planners, pick any given department, the entire world just magically decided we don’t need reliable math anymore. You people are lost in an illusion. Wake up. Net gross does matter and nothing you or fnma say will change that.

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            • Avatar Chris says:

              Baggins… You’re going to lose all your clients if you keep up this absurdity. And I would rather not lose you on this forum.

              One more time my friend, nobody cares about net and gross except you.

              And I am still wondering why.

              And who are you referring to as you people ?

              Do you think there’s a big conspiracy against you, or is it that you’re just afraid they will notice you are using dissimilar comparables to write your appraisals?

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              • Baggins Baggins says:

                And now you somehow believe that appraisers whom understand valuation theory are going to lose clients? That’s not what my managers said when they dealt with appraisers whom drove net/gross sky high for no good reason other than to comply with ANSI, despite nobody else in their local jurisdictions doing so.

                Some people have provincial views where they can’t see the big picture of complex systems. Because if I was a portfolio manager or somehow involved with billions of dollars in mortgage securities; simple reliable references regarding appraisal development competency, like let’s just pick one out, the net/gross indicators. Who needs those?

                Only in your own mind am I the only one out there whom believes in compliance with local municipal guidelines. Go ahead, take that position with the inspector, the treasurer, the tax collector, the sheriff. See what happens.

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        • Avatar Steve says:

          I admit, I’m not an appraiser. I’m learning a lot about the appraiser’s perspective on here. But Fannie doesn’t care about the gross adjustments. In fact, Fannie says “Fannie Mae does not have restrictions on gross, net or line item adjustments”.

          I know this is painful. It adds a lot to my plate as well, as an underwriter, but the pesky underwriter conditions (in response to Collateral Underwriter conditions about GLA being “materially different from other appraisers”) that appraisers receive all the time now will, in theory, start to become less frequent if the entire industry moves to one standard. It will take years for old appraisals with old measuring standards to flush out of the system but GLA and non-GLA should become more consistent and transparent and uniform from one appraiser to the next as time passes.

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          • Avatar Chris says:

            Steve..Well said again….

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          • Avatar David Spurlock says:

            Are you kidding? Do you have any idea how many people out there can’t use a measuring tape? Or have no concept of spatial awareness?

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            • Avatar Chris says:

              David….Are you really trying to say appraisers don’t know how to use a tape measure???

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              • Avatar David Spurlock says:

                In 36 years of appraising and reviewing our peers work, I have seen all kinds of things. The most frequent has been appraisers not noticing that their subject property is landlocked

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          • Baggins Baggins says:

            No Steve, you’re drinking the cool aid. “The industry”. Um… You mean specifically appraisers. Because ‘the real estate industry’ where I am at, does not use ANSI, and they probably never will either. The industry, except for the realty agents, except for the MLS groups, except for the assessors, except for all the buyers and sellers. So no, ANSI in these areas will not cause anything to be more consistent or transparent, in fact this is going to confuse the hell out of everyone and make the appraisers look incompetent.

            Net/Gross is a valuation concept which is used well beyond the appraisal industry. I suppose we’ll be special retarded cases in this matter too, and defy all known analysis rules regarding net/gross indicators being the most absolutely important measurement indicators of similarity and dissimilarity. Oh because Fannie said that does not matter, throw centuries of mathematical theorems out the window.

            Give not one single care about one single entity trying to reform the wheel. Not going to put square tires on my car. A garden level IS NOT A BASEMENT. Perhaps FNMA should finally acknowledge the issue of the problem of appraisal management companies, excessive outsourcing, and do their frigging jobs and utilize the CU system to kick appraisers off approval lists if they can’t do something as simple as…. Drumroll…. Become competent with the LOCAL STANDARDS IN PLACE IN THEIR LOCAL COMMUNITIES.

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            • Avatar Chris says:

              How is a standard to measuring followed by every appraisers result in inconsistency? If all are measuring with this same standard every house measurement by any appraiser should result in a very consistent total GLA. Are you lead by what real estate agent say? Who cares if the agents dont “adopt” ANSI? Agents are out to sell and will add anything in as “GLA”, list any area as a room (closet-deck-patio) just to make it sound bigger, add in basement size into the GLA and say it has a full basement then in the next sentence say ” large crawl for storage. Thats who you look to for “accurate” info? Prior to this I would see more than 1 sketch of a house with very different total living areas because most dont know how to measure and or dont care. In fact there are many who are so stupid and lazy that will use an assessors sketch, when available, in the report and pretend they took the measurements. These are the ones who need to be weeded out. Why do you protest, you now have to actually do your job?

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              • Avatar Chris says:

                Chris .. well said. Baggins seems to care more about people who have nothing to do with the appraisal process, then the ones that actually do.

                70% of my appraisals are bi levels and levels for one reason and one reason only… The lenders cannot rely on assessor data, therefore they need appraisals and appraisers who can think instead of just using imported data and analytics.

                Otherwise you’re just a form filling monkey like so many I reviewed.

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                • Baggins Baggins says:

                  We’re back to being form filling monkeys and cheating on sketch duties. Keep reaching. Well at least you’re coming around to the argument that we can’t competently perform appraisals from different states with the same high degree of certainty as in person. Tell me when you’ve actually seen an appraiser pretend to measure like some appraisal theater. That imported data spoken of actually prevents all the shenanigans agents would use. Which is how in areas where we use such tools and respect local municipal guidelines, and qualify the accuracy of then utilize reliable standards and measurements from the assessors office, we’re not against the wall with pervasive levels of wild west anything goes methodology and potentially incompetent or deceptive agency pertaining to accurate size depictions.

                  So appraisers should stay aware of codes and compliance for everything involved in the process, except the sketch. Permitted additions, unpermitted additions, improper improvement applications that may be subject to tear down orders, all the liability that goes with that, pay attention. You’d better make a note about the water heater strap and alarm systems or whatever. But when it comes to the sketch, local municipal guidelines no longer matter and garden levels magically become basements. Got it.

                  And remember, the appraisal industry is stand alone. We’re not integrated right alongside MLS systems, realty industry systems, and their thousand other supportive systems, we stand apart and independent from everyone. Nope that’s wrong. There would be no appraisal valuation service industry or gse’s in general if we were not providing supportive services to these other industries ourselves. Hence the NAR objection to ANSI. I’m not sure what planet you guys are on. Here on the planet earth, we coordinate together and attain maximal results by identifying local customs, then following them.

                  You guys are talking about requiring people to speak chinese when they’re driving through zimbabwe. This is a logical fault. Some ideas read well but in the real world don’t work out in the long run, especially when only the one singular group clings to something nobody else picks up. Like the air conditioned lawn mower, photo below. Boy that must have had them energized and excited back in the day. But you’ve never seen one in person, because it’s cumbersome and the larger lawn mowing industry never adopted such designs. Same as the larger assessor realty and MLS systems through the entire state of Colorado, not having adopted ANSI standards. Newsflash, you’re the guy riding that thing, out there still trying to sell it. People are standing by entertained sort of shaking their heads in amazement you still believe in the product. Good luck you’re going to need it.

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                  • Avatar Chris says:

                    In the last 3 weeks I have come across 3 appraisals where the appraiser, 2 reports by one and one report by a different appraiser, used the sketch and GLA form the assessor. So yes they are form filling monkeys. The fact that I saw 3 in this very short time all done within the last month means this is a very big and very common problem. Other reports in the last month included an appraiser who measured out the GLA including areas where the ceiling was a s low as 4 feet in height. I measured the same house and came up 200 square feet different than this “appraiser”. Not only did he incorrectly measure the house he missed the fireplace which was even in one of his pictures, said it was a full basement then showed a different size of the basement than the first floor as well as a different footprint of the first floor for the basement then proceeded to explain it has a crawl space below the family room. The problem is, there ARE a huge number of form filling monkeys pretending to be appraisers and are getting away with it. I would bet all 3 of these appraisers I am talking about are totally against ANSI along with being a professional at what they do.

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                    • Baggins Baggins says:

                      Well that begs the question, is this an amc appraiser? The overwhelming pressure placed on appraisers by appraisal management companies does result in corner cutting. That exacerbates existing assignment disparities by amc’s where they do not select appraisers by quality criteria but rather merely by the lowest fee. And they never let go of a discounter regardless of long term performance history. The amc simply makes too much money by using them. Because cost savings of reduced price services are not returned to borrowing consumers.

                      If you’re in a position to see this activity form a verifiable pattern yet continue to allow that appraiser to be on a panel and receive more orders, then either you don’t really disagree with the method or are violating your ethical duties regarding client management and competent services yourself. We are supposed to hold each other to a peer standard.

                      Which reminds me, the local assessor, he’s a licensed appraiser right? I guess the peer standard no longer applies to him, or to me when I’m dealing with him. So much for that ethical guideline too. ANSI is nothing more than a gimmick in places where this is not adopted by the larger realty and assessment community. Keep on riding it until the wheels fall off if you want. We’re standing by entertained with this rolling disaster.

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                      • Avatar Chris says:

                        It should not matter! Pressure is not allowed from Anyone no matter who the “appraiser” is doing “work” for. Now you seem to be making excuses for fake and lazy appraisers. Problem is, as it has been pointed out MANY times here, there are way too many of these fake and or lazy appraisers. You are saying its alright for an AMC to pressure the appraiser and we have to look at “those kind” of appraisers differently? Again I am seeing this push back about ANSI when it is clear those who do not want to do the job right complain when they are required to. If it bothers you so much just become and “appraiser” for the local assessors. It seems you would be very happy rounding measurements and not being held down by “the man”

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                        • Baggins Baggins says:

                          I agree we have a problem with systemic appraiser deficiency. This is a consequence of systemic training deficiency. I did not field a single question on any three of the PSI exams I took (and aced all of them first try), regarding regulatory guidelines, all the dealt with was valuation theory sort if IRV kind of stuff. All those puppy mills back in the day. I remember the old sales pitch used to be that I could get my hours by setting up to receive orders from a certain appraiser, at a fee split amount, and I would do all work send report to them, they’d sign it, or co sign, etc. It was the original amc model where appraisers churned out new licenses and appraisers would work splits like do all the work and only get a 25% amount or something. It is why they put the three trainee limit in place because appraisers were abusing that process. Thankfully those practices are not common anymore.

                          You are painting me as one of the appraisers you make accusations regarding. You are presuming I do not put in the work, because I don’t agree with your ANSI methods. That’s too flimsy of an argument, reach for something more substantial that requires less assumption presumption. Only in your mind is such an argument true, I’m frigging awesome at appraisal services, thorough with my reporting and documentation of both the home and the market data.

                          I do at times toss in an assessors sketch but only to compliment my own manually derived sketch effort. And if there is variance, I talk about it. Especially if there is variance in any form be that the agents reporting, my sketch effort, the assessors sketch, if at any point in that comparative data qualification process there is a variance between the reported size numbers, you’ve got a major problem right then and there which needs examined and reviewed. Which is why it’s absolutely short sighted to voluntarily depart from meaningful existing local standards which provide said redundant data verification and data qualification capability.

                          The purpose of the sketch is not to come up with some new reporting standard for a home with some standard not custom to the local community. The purpose of the sketch is to verify if the assessors stated size records pertaining to the subject are generally accurate or not. Because that size reporting basis is what agents use to develop cma’s bpo’s, listing prices and offering strategies, and is the basis by which appraisers would then make competent comparable market example selections.

                          Get on a different page and risk a liability disaster and accidental incompetent reporting. I agree that standardization matters, and it matters a great deal. That’s why if there is already an existing standardized approach in place, it is straight foolishness and incompetency to deviate from that. You are sidestepping the question if these negative less than reliable methods you are observing, in fact, come from amc appraisers or not. Just answer the question.

                          I’m carrying all of you on my back, because you guys are your own worst enemies with this mandated ansi nonsense. If ANSI is what the local assessors use, then you have to use it. If the local assessors use a different standard, then you have to use that instead. Or else you lose redundant data verification capability which is an essential step in data qualification.

                          1
                          • Avatar Chris says:

                            thank you for letting us all know how awesome you are. We can only hope to attain half of your level of expertise and quality. This world and all of the real estate market really owes a lot to you most powerful and all knowing one. EVERYBODY bow down do you not know who this is???!!! A balding man who wears a singlet to cut the lawn with a child strapped to “his” back open to the sun and ultraviolet rays with no skin protection

                            0
                            • Baggins Baggins says:

                              Chris, I’m on about lawn mowing lately. It’s my new full time passion. So I’ve switched from general meme’s to exclusively only dealing with lawn mowing content, and all of that is random found online. It’s a great euphemism to this industry, as appraisal should be as straight forward as lawn mowing, but due to the special interests pressures within the value industry, has become convoluted and dysfunctional.

                              Can you imagine if they ran the lawn mower industry like they try to run the appraisal industry? Like we don’t care if that lawn is on slope or not, you can only use this mower and you’re not allowed to be versatile and use anything else. And you can’t request the lawn mowing servicer you want to use, you have to use the lowest bidder lawn mowing company ordered from our lawn mowing management company, whom outsources that task again, and you still pay full fee for that discounted lawn mowing service. Then when the mowing crew comes over they’re not allowed to talk to you about your own lawn.

                              Lots of people know who I am on these boards. Just not those people whom would buck up to personal attacks because of disagreement. And we’ve all seen how vindictive the amc industry can be, coaster did hack skapinetz accounts, pam crowley did get death threats, other appraisers within the past few months are dealing with similar nightmares all over again. We all observed those long long blacklists do not use lists with associated articles back in the day which lenders knew was illegal and tried to keep secret. It’s an open secret now with tech companies, they can just add you to that list via the tech relay company and nobody on the appraisal side ever knows, the blacklist approach is alive and well, evolved into new less transparent forms via tech integration.

                              That’s why I use a pen name. It’s not to conceal my identity from you but rather the industry at large. I’m a vocal spokesperson for consumer safety and fair dealings. I’m not all knowing and I learn so much here, as well as freely sharing what I know about valuation services in the hopes of a better future for this flailing valuation services industry.

                              I do care about my career and other appraisers careers in this industry I’ve resided for 20 years. I care about regular citizens and consumer protection is also one of my passions. I learned a long time ago how rife real estate is with pitfalls and hazards, and how difficult it may be for people to manage. With increasing automation, sometimes the appraiser is the only human being a home borrower sees in person before that day of closing. Which is why it is also essential that only licensed appraisers be presented in front of home borrowers, otherwise they could get run down the rails without any actually effective safeguards. FNMA can’t control the inevitable volume of hucksters participating in the lending and technical services community, that is an impossible expectation so I argue against third party inspectors, increased automation, and outsourced services too.

                              The market crashed immediately after I upgraded to certified, and I spent the next 5 years doing nothing but default management. It’s great work which builds a lot of skills, once one learns to deal with the fact every defaulted home comes with broken dreams and financial ruin. I like to think my occasional informational relay during conversations with people about what can happen and how even those minor things can lead to structural or economic disasters and such, has helped people along the way.

                              It’s saddening and interesting, to see what people leave behind. The hardest one I ever dealt with was what I called the broken house heart. All the photos, apologies written on letters posted on the wall, a family disrupted through tragedy, that one was tough. But others were easier to manage, people simply did not pay their bills and got repossessed, hoarders, let pets ruin properties, diy hot tubs right there in the middle of the living room, mold, dangerous electric, surprisingly rather common.

                              Thankfully the 50 state AG effort to reign in default managers like Ocwen did bring about many industry corrections, and billions in fines. We’re setting up to a similar event right now with these reckless new policies and proposals being thrust upon the valuation industry. Appraisers should seriously consider why the valuation services industry is being guided and formed by everyone except appraisers, and why our requests and objections are consistently ignored. This speaks volumes regarding the actual state of consumer protection.

                              Now it’s time to reign in the destructive force which is amc’s, avm’s, and their tech company partners from destroying what’s left of this industry right as we have a real chance to finally save it. Without the independent check and balance, there will be no real consumer protection. You can equate these ideals to fighting the man or being paranoid or whatever makes you feel good about it. It’s not over yet, not while I am gripping this cold steel handle of this high powered mower.

                              I am fueled up and ready to go partner. I do not work for amc’s and I’ll never stop objecting to ANSI. I have made compelling rational and reasonable arguments against ANSI, so counter if you want. Knowing who I am personally is irrelevant, the argument is formed, presented, and validated. Deal with that. ANSI being mandated without the ability to opt out in jurisdictions which do not recognize this standard is a calamity of errors no doubt about it. And it will have many negative consequences which may very well clearly supersede any supposed benefit of larger data system cohesion.

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                            • Avatar Kenneth Smith says:

                              I do not think it helps to call your fellow appraisers lazy and incompetent. Most if not all of the appraisers I have met are hardworking and doing their best in a very tough environment. just my 2 cents worth..

                              2
                              • Baggins Baggins says:

                                Ken, these dudes showed up to this blog with consistently patronizing tones and dedicated efforts to spread liberal propaganda and industry supported corporate branding messages. Don’t mistake their participation for anything else.

                                That kind of junk does not happen in the lawn mowing industry. Without a man on the mower, there can be no lawn. Both the man and the mower must be flexible and have many many working options. Like they don’t mandate everyone use a ride on even if you’re just mowing an inch of lawn. These companies are promoting some pipe dream from their ivory towers, a complete industry wide standardization which only applies to value service, automation, replacement of the human appraiser.

                                I’ve been saying for a while now, there is no more such thing as residential housing. It’s all commercial, and regular home owners are now expected to compete with tycoons from around the world with billion dollar budgets whom buy residential housing on a wholesale level, often sight unseen. They want to run residential housing like some stock market.

                                The promotion of mandatory ANSI, hybrid, third party inspectors, reduced appraisal report content, waivers, just all of that, each is suspected to be a component of this larger effort. The appraisers are racist slander is simply another more complex component. These same groups do not apply the same logic to their friendly heads of the industry. This post;

                                https://appraisersblogs.com/violating-appraisal-independence-through-intimidation-coercion-n-harassment/#comment-34971

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        • Avatar David Spurlock says:

          I find idiotic that we have to summarize the house so that the underwriters and reviewers are not forced to learn to read the report form

          1
        • Avatar Kevin says:

          >This whole illogical approach of parsing size out in ways not recognized by the local mls, not recognized by local people, not recognized by the municipal building codes which the assessor prescribes, it’s all hogwash.

          Exactly, and well stated.

          You cannot adjust for something that nobody else is even measuring. There’s no data.

          1
        • Avatar Doug Kues says:

          These four Appraisers Blogs responses are more accurate than most posts I have seen. GXX001 – commit to memory and create your CYA. Effective dispute would never hold up to reasonable scrutiny. This whole concept was about as reasonable as having an appraiser commit to “proper” water heater strapping. “operating condition” of a carbon monoxide alarm, or removing the word “apparent” from whether or not adverse environmental conditions exist. You show me a report reflecting a home with an 18.4″ wall and a total square footage of 2,411 square feet and I’ll show you two intentionally misleading errors.

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  16. Avatar Truett Neathery says:

    SO, appraisers now will have to hang their hats on comparables that were 1. Stepped off by an agent. 2. What the owner said. 3. Calculated from an erroneous sketch. Sounds like applying science to an essentially emotional buyer and seller experience !!

    4
    • Avatar don says:

      My mentors were appraising in the 1940’s were you. Are you among the WOKE where you base an argument on contradictions and absurdness? Most truths have contradictions, many liars won’t include a basis because they fear or are too lazy to allow others thoughts

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    • Avatar Chris says:

      why would that be, do some areas not have an assessor. So what have you been doing up to now? have you been including 2nd floor areas with a ceiling height of less than 5 feet? have you been including basement sizes? Seems like a lot of people here dont understand that the form has an area for basement separate from the GLA. I dont recall that ever not being that way. IF there are appraisers out there that do these things then I fully understand any mistrust the public may have

      1
      • Avatar don says:

        Some states, counties, or parishes contract an overall appraisal every three to five years, by an independent appraiser. Some sell their non collectables as investments in a bidding process.
        Did the one of the political parties talk about Federalizing the assessing housing or was that just a misconstruction?

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    • Avatar BA says:

      Absolutely, totally and Completely AGREE. And now on to adjustments on these comparable! I am sure they will now be consistent! Right???

      1
      • Baggins Baggins says:

        https://appraisersblogs.com/solving-the-ansi-measuring-dilemma-a-simple-work-around#comment-34587

        An effective workable solution.

        Work the grid twice, print the first to pdf include in report.

        On second round use directions provided to move adjusts, and only change the size of your subject in the interactive 1004.

        You can make your subject ansi compliant without fiddling with confusing adjustments.

        Because ANSI is counter productive, and represents a departure from otherwise already standardized approaches in many states. We don’t need another standard, it’s unacceptable for FNMA to push this without a voluntary opt out option. We should be following our local community standards and municipal guidelines.

        If at any point ansi causes false net gross indicators, because you can make your subject ansi compliant, but are unable to do so with your comps, scrap your method and use mine instead.

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  17. Avatar Richard Troyer says:

    I have used the ANSI standard for 18 years and it is an excellent way of standardizing measurements. I have completed many 2000 field review reports and am apalled at lazy appraisers who copy the tax records measurements. We are to be credible in our reports and this is a good step in the right direction. There has been too much variation in SF measurements of properties due to laziness and inconsistent measuring standards. I was an estimator for commercial general contractors and know that incorrect measurements can cost someone a lot of lost money, especially as a contractor.

    2
    • Avatar Brian says:

      So how do you adjust for GLA knowing that the comparables have not been measured to the same standard? Say the difference is only 200 sf, at $50 that is still 10 grand and a 200 sf difference or a $50 adjustment are pretty small!

      10
  18. Avatar Mark Anderson says:

    Realtors and home builders developed ANSI standard. Ask a realtor what it is and you will get a blank stare. Fannie allows variance for walkouts. Assessor and realtors in my market consider finished walkouts as gla. Apples to apples.

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    • Avatar Chris says:

      THere are appraisers out there that rely on realtors for GLA? When a home owner wants to fight tax assessments, do they go complain to the realtors in the area or the assessor? Why would anyone believe a realtor that will use a basement in GLA just to make it sound bigger, include closets, decks and garages in room count. What have you been doing up to this point. There really has been no change. They just want consistent measurements from appraisers that think no wall has ever been anything other than a whole number.

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  19. Baggins Baggins says:

    Hi Don. Thank you. Please educate me on the terms; ‘paced off’, and per below Mr Neathery’s statement of ‘stepped off’. Are those the same terms? Never heard that before. Please explain.

    Private size records sounds like an insurmountable challenge. In CO we generally have easy access to assessors size and they’re reliable the majority of the time. I’m concerned about ansi in CO because half of all my homes appraised are bi’s or tri’s if in the sf det housing segments.

    I think the bi level with full basement (3 total floor levels) is a good example of how ANSI is going to cause more problems than solutions. Am I to report two basement levels and adjust them each with a different basis? (the garden basis matching agla because it is agla per ‘the market’ & ‘common approaches by assessors realtors and buyers’, and then the lower cost typically associated with actual basements.)

    In CO suburbia I never bothered with ansi and it’s not very common to see other appraisers using it either. Such an inflexible approach would have every single comp falling outside of bracketing size against my subject, even if they are model matches, since I’d use assessor & MLS data for comps, but would use ansi for subject which would be an entry contrary to assessor and contrary to the mls listing. Even private sketch requests for pre listings would fall outside of FNMA ANSI dictates so even sketches won’t match if those are present which is getting common for agents to upload either a prelist or builder spec floorplan. The FNMA appraisers sketch will never match what could be a total of 4 or even 5 different other data sources; assessor, mls current & previous, pre list sketch, known builder floorplan data.

    It is going to confuse everyone and they won’t understand why I’m using such a nonsensical approach, apparently refusing to be on the same page as everyone else. This inflexible rule stinks of incompetency. (see links I posted at top of this conversation thread for the traditional more sensible alleviation work arounds we have enjoyed up to this point in time.)

    I read a hundred pages on this just recently, including annoying AF threads. I can see why some support the standard but it just does not make sense from a perspective of seeking to achieve lower risk scores and fewer automatic underwriter tool alerts in areas with prolific multi levels. The common standard for the past 60 or so years has been to report garden partially below as agla space. Multi levels are overwhelmingly common in the 60’s to 2000’s stock in CO.

    What is normally an internal EO review alert count as low as 8 or 10 in my Alamode software and lenders review software will jump to like 20+ because I’ll get fire alerts for all comps out of range, excess size differences, failure to bracket size, excess size comparison differences, and depending on how I adjust basement, other excess net/gross adjust alerts. What was a 1 FNMA risk score will become a 3 constantly if not worse. This is such a short sighted dictate from a reviewers and risk management perspective. I guess just memorize this and repeat ad nausea with disclaimers; GXX001.

    I’ll have to try and push everything through ‘true’, and if they don’t accept it, will have to include screen prints of my grid prior to ANSI rule meddling and rev requeists. Providing at least a clear illustration I did not intend to submit an apparently incompetent report but was requested to due to these arbitrary inflexible rules on stating subject size. I’ll then shake my head in disbelief when I’m asked for more comps to bracket the agla size.

    It would be even worse and actually incompetent if I were to guess at what agla size I should be reporting for comparable selections like another tri or something (trying apples to apples and guessing at ansi compliant sizing for comps without any reliable data source to get there as sketches and per each level size indications are not always public data). A tri can have anywhere from a fifth to over a third on the lower garden level, and some bi’s can be variable too.

    There should be an exception for split level homes. Am I about to ‘step off or pace off’ if I start guessing like this, is that what it means? FNMA is acting like it owns the market and can direct everyone else. Selling guide needs to have appropriate flexibility, the hardline approach is the wrong approach.

    9
    • Avatar Truett Neathery says:

      Real-a-ters measure by walking around the foundation, Close enouph.

      2
    • Avatar ej says:

      Excellent comments, Baggins. Fannie Mae is basically asking appraisers to produce misleading appraisal reports. My question is: where are the Appraisal Organizations?

      9
      • Baggins Baggins says:

        Thank you ej. A lot of great ideas and points came out of this thread. And then I zingered it by highlighting how the selling guide has conflicting data. The selling guide even says that in some cases the below grade should be reported as agla. I bet the person whom is imposing this ‘mandate’ for reporting strategy is one of those covid believers too. There are a lot of people whom are now propagandized to the point they no longer utilize logic or reason but rather have become accustomed to following commands and barking orders. Enough with the mini dictators, I do what I want and what I think is right. I’ll continue to report in a manner consistent with the local market. What are they going to do put me on FNMA probation? Enough appraisers will be using this code that they’ll have to rescind.

        Obviously there is a high probability for a conflict of interest here. Taking bets now if the person issuing this has stake in some hybrid deal or amc companies, or is even aligned with selling us ansi books. It’s another evil plot to make appraisers purchase appraisal related books we do not want and do not need. Where is the cosmic cobra breeding ground guy, he’ll back me up!

        2
        • Avatar Seneca says:

          “I bet the person whom is imposing this ‘mandate’ for reporting strategy is one of those covid believers too”

          Dear Lord Baggins. Just stop it.

          9
    • Avatar don says:

      Pacing and stepping may cover different issues. When Legg length enters in, individualism prevails, as does individual-independence. Territorialial knowledge could be important and explainable

      0
      • Baggins Baggins says:

        Thank you. Upon further reflection, tri level with basement is the example, not bi. Sorry.

        0
        • Avatar Brian says:

          Actually, in my area, both have below-grade areas that the assessors include as GLA which the Realtor then uses in the MLS record. I have been struggling with this for years now, I am required to record this area as below grade but I am not to correct the MLS record? It might be wrong but I’m an apple to apple guy, when I can clearly see that the record is wrong that area will be removed and noted in the basement section with plenty of comments of how and why.

          1
          • Baggins Baggins says:

            https://selling-guide.fanniemae.com/Underwriting-Property-Projects/Appraisal-Requirements/Appraisal-Report-Assessment/Improvements/1069008161/What-is-included-in-the-square-footage-calculation-for-gross-living-area.htm
            Brian, that’s the updated ridiculous guidance, subject of this thread.

            https://singlefamily.fanniemae.com/media/21821/display
            Control+F to bring up the keyword search bar tool.
            The keyword you’ll want to enter is; consistency

            ‘For consistency in the sales comparison analysis, the appraiser should compare above-grade areas to above-grade areas and below-grade areas to below-grade areas. The appraiser may need to deviate from this approach if the style of the subject property or any of the comparables does not lend itself to such comparisons. For example, a property built into the side of a hill where the lower level is significantly out of ground, the interior finish is equal throughout the house, and the flow and function of the layout is accepted by the local market, may require the gross living area to include both levels. However, in such instances, the appraiser must be consistent throughout the appraisal in his or her analysis and explain the reason for the deviation, clearly describing the comparisons that were made.’

            I would highlight the conflict of guidance suggestions here as well. ‘The appraiser must be consistent’, which means if you have two bi levels, one is reported half agla half bas, the other is reported all agla no bas, but they are the same model same total size of home, you must make a call and adjust data to report them and adjust them in a consistent manner. Then you turn to larger market area research for similar housing and you observe which reporting method is most common, also double checking with assessor direct to see if agents have altered reporting strategies in MLS. The end goal is consistent reporting across the board and not getting nutty by reporting two identical homes in a dissimilar manner. Your primary ‘requirement’ is ‘credible reporting results’, which is absolutely prioritized above arbitrary compliance with some data which may be conflicting and lead to ‘misleading reporting.’ Consistency, consistency, consistency.

            Builders lead the way as they initially build and then report sizing information to the county departments which after permit compliance & build inspection compliance, then report the size to the assessors. The assessor or the building code department or one of them will dictate how the builders should be reporting size to them. It’s normally a logical point but also detailed zoning coding guidelines which are county specific and vary county from county may dictate certain minimum height or depth requirements to qualify garden level vs basement. In the real world most garden level is half half up/down and nobody arbitrarily calls that a basement because it is well understood a basement must be nearly completely below ground but usually peeks a foot or two up for a small bas window or room for window well. Being a few feet dug in does not make it a basement, give me a break.

            Don’t get too caught up in trying to do something differently or comply with every bureaucratic rule, and no, you would not ask MLS to correct their size records if the record is taken directly from the assessors database which size usually is reported that way, they just copy the size figures. Every time I’ve observed sizing variance in MLS vs assessor, it’s always trouble. I am not inviting that into my reports which I am liable for. Just took some classes too; remember appraisers can be subjected to civil and criminal penalties. Good luck explaining in civil court why a completely different sizing standard was applied to your subject which was not applied to your comps, it’s an open invitation for getting sued if people disagree with your value opinion. Target on the back argument.

            The ansi rule applies to the appraisers reporting on subject but would not be applicable to all the comps who’s assessor reported sizes did not utilize ansi standards? Especially with tri levels, are we to guess at the lower third level size amount we should be removing and reporting in another line for our tri level comps? We may have that measurement for subject but would not for comps. And we’re not going to ‘step off’ that sizing guess of comps. This is why we’ll have to get used to using the exception code. GXX001.

            Apples to apples makes sense to us but is too generalized of a description of the problem to be a defensible argument. If you get a client whom throws a fit about the use of the exception code, direct them to this specific selling guide language. Actually, may be a good start to the prewritten explanation about why the code is being used, refer them back to their own selling guide. Typical bureaucracy, one hand does not know what the other one is doing. We’re from the government and we are here to help.

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    • Avatar don says:

      Paced or stepped off are colloquialism’s counting’s rafter ends also worked or estimating the setbacks from the plot plan.

      In the more popular States, we had National builders and published architects who advertised their products. On your lot builders advertised package deals including options. local builders worked with local agents who represented all and told all. National, and regional builders began spreading in the 1950’s and their plans were copied and advertised by local Realtors. The MLS began stabilizing using order and organization from the 1940 and forward, by the 1970s these MLSs began merging And then!

      Read the Newspaper, make friends among the industry

      0
  20. Avatar Kenneth Smith says:

    Called the county Assessor and asked if they used the ANSI standard when measuring homes. The reply was, never heard of it.

    5
    • Avatar Truett Neathery says:

      Our county assessor in Placer County, CA came from the Personal Property space. Probly not familiar with ANSI or measuring buildings, either !

      2
  21. Avatar Patrick Abandy says:

    In terms of a drive-by, I don’t believe that you have to measure the subject and that’s why it is called a drive-by. If the lender wants a measurement, then the lender should order a full appraisal. In addition, I don’t also believe that a home owner will allow you the appraiser to measure the home which is used as a comparable because the home owner doesn’t know who you are and at the same time does not want to put the family’s safety in jeopardy. I will not allow a total stranger to come and walk around my home in order to satisfy the ANSI rule.

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  22. Avatar koma says:

    If enough of us do not adhere to this it will crash their systems and we’ll see how fast this is retracted. I will be moving forward with the standard that has provided my reports with credible results for the past 15 years.

    4
  23. Avatar Koma says:

    Just did a little research and found out hybrid appraisals (I do not do these) are being completed using ANSI measurement standard. Hmmm I wonder why Fannie Mae is making this a requirement?

    0
    • Avatar don says:

      Use price as a method of comparison, it is a common item and frequently arrangeable as a, MEAN MEDIAN, or MODE. There can be many ways that price can vary, some even suggested by the lenders.
      The ANSI. rule is too awkward for we sophisticates.

      0
      • Baggins Baggins says:

        One time a manager served me but good for having used price basis for research. You want to stay away from that if possible. Although proof is possibly in the price, it’s still important to utilize other investigative methods to come about comprehensive data which brings good price alignment. You’ve got to back into it because price does not always equal value. Damn, 20 years of saying that…

        1
        • Avatar don says:

          How broad is the statement ” most probable value in dollars, and or estimate of value? I believe that the form asks for a summarization for the arrival of VALUE. Does the price offered have any influence on your conclusion or should you round out, up, or down? AND what else can you round?
          Remember the VA used to ask for any “evidence of discounting”.

          0
    • Baggins Baggins says:

      Koma you know the funny thing about that… All these tech companies and amc’s pushing hybrids copy static language, similar to how they all copied scope of work and engagement guidelines. They may state they’re using such a process as ANSI. Then they’ll just turn around and import the readily available assessor and MLS data, which of course, may not be ANSI compliant. It’s all automated data mapping to form fields for maximized efficiency. Ask them questions about regulatory structure or the details of what their disclosure language actually means and they will be unable to explain it. I used to really have a good time catching these companies and people tripping up on their own generic approaches. Then I got tired of educating a constantly rotating staff of telecom workers and abandoned amc work completely. Cheers.

      1
      • Avatar koma says:

        Hey Baggins, Just received an email to sign up for an app called CubiCasa. It will measure the subject house to ANSI standards by just using your phone… hahaha Again, none of my area assessors/mls use that standard of measurement.

        0
        • Baggins Baggins says:

          NFM lending sent out a recent email, direct assignment on valuetrac. Not sure if they have always been direct but have at least called more more appraisers and a new sign up link recently. FYI. There is an escape from the amc madness.
          CubiCasa; THIRTYFIVE DOLLARS PER SKETCH!!!??? Headquarters in Finland. Written by their marketing experts from a world away. Sorry dudes from Finland, I’ll keep my 10 dollar 100 ft tape measure I bought 20 years ago and you guys can keep your tech and reindeers or whatever. Globalism is a disaster, as the whole world moves to exploit our industries. Create a program once, charge $35 dollars to perpetuity and infinity with a rising cost basis as the inevitable software update is needed. I wish every tech developer on the planet would take a very very long vacation and like learn to make quilts or do pottery or something instead, things we could actually benefit from and use without contributing to more environmental pollution and ewaste. Special prediction, you’ll have to always pay more whenever you upgrade your phone. For those not in the know, you can sub all of that with various freeware or just print out a grid page which is a free form on alamode and use a pencil. It’s all marketing hype. Did you know that investors are standing by willing to pay cash for your house tomorrow, no appraisal necessary?
          https://www.cubi.casa/your-mobile-phone-is-the-new-disto-for-home-appraisals/

          0
        • Avatar don says:

          `Years past I did a lot of hard money second loans. The hard money lenders used strategies to insure against loss. Encouraging the borrower to falsify financial info and NOT be allowed a bankruptcy worked.
          Who was the crook, It didn’t matter how an assessor appraiser, or Realtor measured the house, the lender was protected?

          0
  24. Hello, I’ve been appraising for 22 years. I have worked directly at Fannie, Freddie and HUD. I have help create policies, and the HUD 4000.1. One thing I have learned in all this time is these originations have got to stop trying to shift the blame to appraisers. Some Genuis at Fannie thinks by invoking Square Footage-Method for Calculating: ANSI® Z765-2021, that every appraiser is going to NOW measure the same house at the same GLA. (WRONG) not going to happen!! Instead of trying to change the appraisers, why don’t you impose stricter mandates on builders. YES, they have the blueprints, make it mandatory that this information is listed in County records with a copy of the sketch. Then the appraiser uses this. (Duh) If not; here is what’s going to happen. WWIII, Yup Between Sales agents, appraisers, and lenders alike. Sales agents ARE NOT going to use this new standard when listing a home, neither are builders, and therefore they are going to miss price the home by comparing them to larger homes, especially Cape Cods. Then, when an appraiser comes in and does use the new standard and pulls comps that are much smaller than everyone else was thinking, and the value is much lower (explosion)*** So for all you brainy acts Remember A modo we had in the Army (KISS) Keep it Simple Stupid. If an area of a home that is above grade is livable and heated it’s GLA. Even if the ceiling height is less than 5 feet. It’s cost money to insulate, run plumbing, electrical, drywall etc. It still cost money to put a roof over this area, a child’s bed or dresser will still go against that wall. There may still be hardwood flooring wall to wall or expensive carpet etc. Whoever came up with this has no idea of what they are starting. I review appraisals now for that past 8 years, and I have while at Fanni & HUD. The different things I’ve seen will shock you, NOW you want to ask some 75,000 appraisers across the nation to add heated are with ceiling heights of less than 5 feet to make it an extra line item on the sales grid. And who’s to say how much on this adjustment??? Another saying we had in the Army; This is going to be a Charlie Foxtrot!!!

    11
    • Avatar Brian says:

      I couldn’t agree more! The longer I am in this business the less I know, very frustrating. After 20+ years I wish that someone would show me a matched pair let alone enough matched pairs to support any adjustments. And now I am to further complicate the process, on a positive note, it might bring to light the fact that we have been making unsupported adjustments on data that can’t be proven as factual for many years.

      7
      • Baggins Baggins says:

        Oh no! Don’t say that. LOL. You know the support lies within the adjusted value indicators and their alignment with each other. Follow the rules of bracketing and you can’t miss, even in complex scenarios. If one just takes the time for very careful logical comparable selection, everything you need to support adjustments lies within the relationship of those few market examples. Everything you need to successfully defend the value conclusions and determine reasonable adjustments lies in the competency of comps selection and the adjustment grid itself. ‘Narrowly aligned adjusted value indicators’. What more proof do you need?

        It’s all old hat and the stupid things the non appraisers keep doing is the only excitement left. You will be required to use this standard! That is somebody begging to be ignored and become instantly irrelevant. There is no quicker path to losing support than to bark out mandates to everyone in sight and tell people they no longer have personal choice options. I do what I want.

        3
  25. Avatar JD says:

    Hummm think I’ll plan my retirement party in April of 2022.
    I am IN control of WHAT i DO. I am NOT in control of the “comparable sales” I USE!

    May as well IN this pool of ____….ADD the following: HYBRID / BI’ Forms: IF I am PART B, the signer of the Report (following 5 years of liability) HOW am I to KNOW, the PART A was measured at all MUCH less by using ANSI ?? IS this the best THEY could come UP with ??? JUST like back-when EVERY Appraiser needed a CRIM-check! Or when DISTANCE GEO’ was THE BIG deal, so your client would NOT send you an assignment >10 miles from your business address BUT you resided ____ miles away. THAT was a really stupid one… like I only know market w/n 10 miles. LOL! WHO are these Idiots?

    3
  26. Avatar Seneca says:

    Article that asks questions and gives some solutions…..but not quite.

    https://appraiserelearning.com/fannie-maes-big-christmas-surprise-ansi-required-in-2022/

    So by one of his examples. do you make two adjustments for sq ft since you can’t extract out the attic sq ft in the comp?

    Subject Comp
    GLA 1000sf 1500sf -$10,000
    Feature 500sf 0sf +$10,000

    Do you comment that staircases in a two story home in this market is typically 80 to 120 sq ft. Then state you are using an extraordinary assumption that the comp has 100 less sq ft than what is stated. Then state “in order to meet ANSI the appraiser is subtracting the stairway sq ft from the comp in the grid”?

    Got this email today but haven’t listened to it yet.

    https://appraiserelearning.com/the-appraisal-update-podcast/?goal=0_ea97ed434d-9cef02a541-15568401&mc_cid=9cef02a541&mc_eid=4996d3394d

    1
  27. Maybe all of us appraisers should retire and let the Genius that are coming up with the new crap (square foot method) etc. let them leave their comfy desk and go out into the field and actually do the work. Let them take countless hours of CE, pay the ridiculous MLS, E&O and appraisal software fees. Let them be responsible for the report for the next 5 years. And then maybe, JUST MAYBE they will screw their heads on straight. Can I get an Amend?

    10
    • Avatar Koma says:

      Martin, I think that’s their main purpose. Get everyone to use the same method then their systems will have enough information to cut us out. Would love to see the catastrophe if/when that takes place.

      On another note, just joined with another local lender that keeps their loans in house. They do not even require UAD. Sweeet! Retirement can’t come soon enough.

      3
  28. Baggins Baggins says:

    Please refer to the Fannie Mae ‘standardized property measuring guidelines document’. I have this printed next to my computer. ‘Is there an exception to the process? If the appraiser is unable to adhere to the ANSI Standard, the appraiser will provide the code GXX001 in the Additional Features field on the appraisal form and must explain why compliance was not possible. ‘ A few months from now most appraisers will have memorized this numerical sequence, get used to typing it in; GXX001.

    So for split levels, Fannie will get less property information rather than more as we’ll have to occupy this limited 2 line data entry field with static opt out language and referral to yet another disclosure disclaimer pre written field entry which we’ll either have to place on pg 3 or addenda. That’s too bad because that field is commonly understood by people whom actually understand appraisal reporting, to be reserved for a summary line of the subject homes features and amenity.

    Some lenders will push back because in order to keep FNMA CU systems risk scores low, they do constantly seek fewer underwriting exceptions as a rule of thumb. Day 1 systems are likely to alert every time appraisers seek to push this exception through. It will be the appraisers responsibility to comply with uspap and not provide a misleading report. This will simply have to be something lenders get used to because appraisers are not allowed to push misleading reports under our regulatory structure. Remember as Mr Towne said; ‘uspap only applies to appraisers’. It is our professional licensing responsibility to adhere to ethical standards and must either alter scope of work or decline the assignment if we are instructed to provide misleading reporting content. Forming an illusionary fictitious agla number which omits assessor reporting, ignores realty agent reporting, and may change both adjustment and cost approach basis figures for the omitted ‘below grade’ area in question certainly seems to qualify as a misleading conveyance of real property data.

    Also remember that the scope of work is not dictated by a client (in this case; lenders ordering FNMA appraisal products on FNMA forms under FNMA selling guide guidelines). The scope of work is a mutual engagement which it is the appraisers ethical responsibility to form in an acceptable manner before accepting engagement and eventually completing the assignment. The appraiser can not claim any liability protection or regulatory exception by claiming the client dictated they provide misleading reporting content. Quite the opposite in fact.

    The tech workers riddled in every ancillary sector throughout the appraisal industry do not understand these concepts. They labor to increase efficiency and profitability of the process for their uses and their intentions, enjoying the absence of any individual licensing or personally applied regulatory requirements, as tech systems development is not a very well regulated industry. It’s a free for all and many just try to impose what they want upon appraisers, while simultaneously not being qualified to work with appraisers in the first place.

    Protecting the public trust is not a priority for the myriad of companies seeking to profit from licensed appraisers efforts. Regulated appraisers provide a check and balance. It is our responsibility to slow these companies down or choose not to utilize their products or methods if they direct us towards operational or development methods which may diminish the reliability of our appraisal work products. They seek whatever they are seeking. We seek ethical compliance. A clearly defined scope of work is the bridge which allows us to work together.

    This is yet another example of why these decisions should not be left in the hands of tech people or non-licensed managers. Another example of why failing to hire enough licensed appraisers on the management side results in poor outcomes. A consequence of the ongoing abuse of the appraisal industry as we are exploited by tech companies and unnecessary third party injection on all sides.

    Lenders whom have failed to hire qualified actively licensed appraisers will be left at a disadvantage as they bungle the process and errantly presume they can force the appraisers acceptance of a scope of work which ultimately results in misleading reporting content. Much time and effort will be wasted, clients may be lost, increased appraiser liability will be the result for appraisers whom fail to utilize this exception and demand the lender client accept the ‘exception to the ansi measuring requirement’. Sorry FNMA, after some reflection, I have formed the opinion that in many situations adhering to this guideline may result in misleading report content and could expose me to professional liability. GXX001.

    Feel free to form some pre written disclaimer content and post here for others to use. It will be like the intended user debacle and eventually FNMA may issue ‘acceptable language’ or just rescind the demand entirely once they realize such a voluminous portion of reports are utilizing this exception code.

    Don’t go whistling past the graveyard as you throw in the towel just yet, just memorize the exception and get used to using it. Form defensible arguments and language why you must insist and will not be able to continue engagement if they reject this alteration to the scope of work regarding ANSI compliance. Some appraisers will have to use this, others will not, it will depend on the nature of housing and assessors policies in your area. As noted in above commentary from all the blog participators, you have all the talking points needed; Assessor does not use it, agents do not use it, comps alignment issues, valuation analysis basis changes, fictitious data, misleading reporting, etc, etc. Thank you for reading the Appraisers Blogs.

    7
  29. Avatar JD says:

    ANSI Z765 can be downloaded for $25. https://www.homeinnovation.com/z765.

    QUESTION: Where is the FREE version & WHY do we have to PAY?

    The ONLY updates are member & copywrite edits. Source: psa@ansi.org January 6, 2022.

    2
  30. Avatar Gordo says:

    I used to use ANSI standard, about 30 years ago. That was back when we had measuring tapes. I discovered that rounding to the nearest 1/2 foot was just as accurate. The measuring tape cannot measure to the nearest .1 foot, because it bends, even more so on 50 foot plus walls.

    But now they say “Now you gots dem lazers”

    LOL, I hate to break it to you, but lasers are not more accurate. I measure each wall twice, and rarely come up with the same length both times. Since I round to the nearest 1/2 foot, it didn’t concern me. Now I got to measure maybe 3 or more times, and hopefully they are with .1 foot of each other

    4
    • Avatar Kevin says:

      The angle you’re holding the laser at matters, too.
      And sometimes you have no decent line-of-sight directly to the opposite wall, this is especially true when doing outside measurements.

      0
  31. Avatar Raymond says:

    Hmmm….interesting comments. After 39 years in the profession, it still amazes me how little control appraisers have over their own profession. We have non-appraisers telling us how to do our appraisals. Meanwhile, our profession continues to be fragmented from within. Ol well, like other professions, at least technology has made a significant impact.

    2
    • Avatar PJTMC says:

      You are spot on about our industry. I have been a residential appraiser for over 35 years, and it always amazed me how no one in this industry stands shoulder to shoulder and says, “we are mad as hell and not going to take it anymore”. Instead, many act as though other appraisers are the enemy and willing to cut their throat in a heartbeat. Unless this attitude changes, we are doomed for extinction.

      5
      • Avatar Koma says:

        Well now is the time. I am pushing hard on finding more local lenders. Two that I have keep their loans in house and one doesn’t even require UAD. If my other clients inform me their jobs are for Fannie I’ll decline. They’ll keep sending, then asking, then pleading and I will say no. It’s good to cover a rural area where appraisers from neighboring counties will not venture into.

        Now I saw the exception, but why waste my time adding more information with Fannie keeping an “eye” on me. Hopefully enough of us will use the exception or even stop as to cause enough chaos. I dropped the ones requiring a yearly background check and survived, I’ll survive this bs too.

        0
        • Baggins Baggins says:

          In house lenders are like white whales. If you find them they often also make borrowers sign a caveat they may sell to recapitalize mortgage lending funding if necessary, although they’re likely to retain servicing oversight. Don’t get too excited about the perceived protections of that particular working avenue. GSE work is a mess but also provides the benefit of scale and the largest body of borrowing consumers. In house lenders could get wiped out with a price slide and might be in house because they’re sanctioned from certain packaging and reselling opportunities or create generally higher risk like hard money or bridge loan types. Be careful.

          0
  32. You know what’s really funny about this new ANSI square foot method. Two things. 1 All during Covid Fannie, Freddie, HUD, VA were all accepting drives-bys, or desk-tops. No one cared??? Even as of today, Fannie/Freddie still accept Hybrid appraisal where Non-Licensed appraisers are allowed to make the site visit, including measuring. Now tell me who full of S##T????????????????????????????? NUMBER 2, We are all still going to use comps where the GLA does not or did not a hear to this new standard. So, what more important, the size of the subject or the comps that we use to value it by ?????????

    3
    • Baggins Baggins says:

      When I refinanced earlier this year, chose the no appraisal option (as my otherwise really great CU regrettably uses an amc), they stated ‘avm alternative option’, but then ordered a hybrid value report which was completed by a realty agent. Public records and realist data, just basically an integrated copied avm value, with bpo like drive by photo service, relayed through an amc of course. Sadly, I fed an amc anyways even though I tried not to. MB said you should do these, we order a lot. They seem to miss the point of what an appraisal valuation opinion service is, and what it is not. Ten years into separation from loan production rules and most mortgage bankers have a decreased understanding regarding uspap ethical implications and requirements. Most new appraisers don’t understand the process as intricately either. Separation from loan production still stands as a regulatory gift and windfall to amc’s. And according to the volume of helpful suggestions from appraisers outright disregarded by Home Innovation (formerly a national builder advocate, now vertically integrated with fnma & the green product sales movement), it would seem that Home Innovation really does not care what appraisers have to say either. Did FNMA people even read this document before pushing this new mandatory measurement requirement? Probably not.

      Seriously, take a minute to read through this. Pay attention to the committee roster, objection comments, and volume of denials.
      https://www.homeinnovation.com/-/media/Files/Standards_Development/Square_Footage/2020_Z765/ANSI-Z765-Update-Public-Comments-Report-PCR.pdf

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    • Avatar PJTMC says:

      To your point, this is not about measurements, it is about the continued attempt of dismantling of the appraisal industry. The lending industry has been trying for years to get rid of their only stumbling block to complete control and what better way then to disguise it as a NEW requirement hoping appraisers will boycott so steps can be put in place to circumvent the appraisal. Appraisers need to unit and start a class action lawsuit with an injunction put in place to postpone so this can potentially can be reversed by the court. Any takers to head this up?

      5
  33. Avatar cotton says:

    ANASI? Sounds racist!

    0
  34. Avatar John L Daley says:

    I’ve been in finance my whole career. Been in appraising for 20 years. This is just another incompetent decision by people who BELIEVE they understand the minds of buyers and their motivations. There is not one person who voted this in that understands my motivations as a buyer. YES…there is not one person who made this a regulation that understands my motivation as a buyer. Measuring a home is so common sense it is ridiculous. And to think someone might be off 5-10%…..God forbid. Interesting. We are required to include three comparables in each appraisal. I usually include 4-5. We do that for a reason. Not only to bring the sales within range of a reasonable value, but also to understand that GOOD appraisers already know he value before they complete. Its called knowing the market. And sadly….none of the people who made this decision knows my market. Any comments??

    This is the definition of ANSI…Another Neurotic Standard created by Idiots. Once again another standard to strangle the industry and cost more to the consumers. Wake the hell up people. Does anyone think for ONE SECOND that minimal GLA differences have to do with the motivation of someone wanting a home? And here is the bolded statement above …….We welcome critical posts & opposing points of view. We value robust & civil discourse. You may openly disagree, but state your case in an atmosphere of mutual respect, in which everyone has a right to a particular view about the topic of conversation. Please keep remarks about the topic at hand, & PLEASE avoid personal attacks. If the poster gets you upset, it is the Internet, you can walk away from it.

    According to the statement above…..PLEASE avoid personal attacks. Hate to say it, but the new regulations are a personal attack on consumers because you see by comments you are costing more to consumers. Apparently, common sense is gone in our industry. I had a great run…but people in my own industry dumbed down, and have no clue why they did it. GLA??? Are kidding me??

    3
    • Baggins Baggins says:

      https://appraisersblogs.com/ansi-measuring-standard-required-by-fannie-mae-in-2022/#comment-32975
      Don’t miss the details on the volume of appraisers whom were part of the ansi work group but had their opinions and suggestions dismissed. The appraiser communities (or at least a small sampling of that), had their opinions ‘recognized’ and summarily ignored.

      Take the gloves off, let them have a piece of your mind. This is what happens when we allow special interests to control everyone else through the power of proprietary government connections. This ansi thing is yet another in a long line of reasons why government should get out of the business of subsidizing lending and insurance. Lenders would never go for this if it was 100% of their money on the line.

      3
  35. Avatar ej says:

    I’m disappointed that the AGA has not strongly condemned ANSI. And the special interest profiteers like Bryan Reynolds.

    2
  36. Avatar PJTMC says:

    Issue: Adoption of ANSI Z765-2021 by appraisers
    Benefits: None
    Detriments:
    1. Appraiser is no longer on a level playing field with public & revaluation company reported gla for comparables
    2. Dwellings not meeting ceiling height will, in all probability, require large gla adjustments in the appropriate area resulting inherent issues and questions for not appearing comparable. Especially true of identical or near identical dwellings.
    3. Confusion with underwriters, and borrowers resulting in extensive time consuming responses to lenders and management companies.
    4. Extensive use of extraordinary assumptions will be required for the comparables. (In other words, “guesstimates” as the requirements do not rise to the threshold of extraordinary assumptions).
    5. Misreporting and different reporting of comparable gla from different appraisers as the result of the “guesstimating” requirement. As noted, the new requirement do not rise to the level of an “extraordinary assumption” however the appraiser is being led to believe that it does (fairly loose use of the intended use).
    6. Appraiser is to alter, at his or her own peril, gla reported by public records for comparables. It is made clear this decision is at the liability of the appraiser.
    7. No direction on the existence of suspended ceiling height vs. actual ceiling height. Just one in a plethora of examples.
    8. Serves no good purpose to anyone including the borrower, lender, appraisal management company or appraiser
    9. Will result in contested and angry borrowers and lenders. Especially with the use of “guesstimates”,
    10. Comparable gla becomes argumentative and personal in opinion with no real bases of reference. I wonder how this will work when a national data site is used for checking data and comparable gla, for a particular property, is reported 10 different ways by 10 different appraisers?
    At least the current process has some bases that allows all properties, subject and comparables, to be on a level playing field. While it is not a perfect system it does allow the idiom of apples to apples and not apples to oranges.
    In any scenario, one must ask themselves, “will anything good come out of this”. In my opinion the answer to that is “no”. If the answer is “no” then why pursue it? I see this just being a total debacle that will need to change at some time in the future. It seems this change is likely being brought about by bureaucrats justifying their existence and force feeding everyone this is in their (you and me) best interest. It is totally irrational and has no positive outcome, only negative. So, for the sins of a few the masses will now suffer and, the suffrage is not limited to the appraiser; the entire industry will suffer the debris left in its wake. The initial proposed change should have been “highly” publicized and presented to the masses of people in the lending industry who work in the field and understand the difficulties they face every day. I myself, was not aware this change was being proposed. This whole idea presents significantly more liability exposure to the appraiser given they have made it clear the appraiser is responsible to make his or her best judgement in arriving a comparable gla, really? This, in itself, is alarming if not in direct violation of USPAP reporting requirements. And speaking of USPAP why have they not commented on just how the appraiser is going to comply with these new FNMA requirements and not be in violation of USPAP? It smacks of all kinds of USPAP violations sooooo, how can an appraiser perform his or her job in a manner consistent with USPAP and still meet the new FNMA requirements? They can’t, simple as that. This seems to me to be ripe for discussion.
    Of course, the bureaucrats, who arrived at this new concept, will argue it is about people not liking change however, nothing could be further from the truth. It is about the appraiser being able to conduct his or her business in compliance with USPAP on a level playing field and not relying on “guestimates” (at best) in arriving at a value estimate. If the respective towns and revaluation companies are not required to change how they calculate gla (something FNMA does not have the power to do) it is doomed to failure. I can see this whole ridiculous requirement resulting in increased lawsuits, reprimands from licensing boards, increased insurance costs and an overall collapse of the appraisal industry…. perhaps this is the end game here?
    Unless the way the towns and revaluation companies change the way they measure their properties to meet the new FNMA appraiser requirement, I see this being of no positive benefit what-so-ever to anyone. It is akin to saying all prior appraisals are null, void, unreliable and should be disregarded and, that my friends, is pure nonsense. Holding the appraiser accountable to meet an entirely different industry standard is ridiculous. ANSI serves a purpose for an entirely different industry and is being reinterpreted to apply to the appraisal process. For that matter why not incorporate all of ANSI into the appraiser requirements? Did I just suggest that?
    In closing, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” is probably the best closing statement to make. Me, like most of you, never knew there was a problem with relying on relevant, reliable data sources for comparables that, according to FNMA are no longer reliable. Shame on them.

    6
    • Baggins Baggins says:

      PJTMC, although you eluded to this at the end of your well written post, you forgot one thing; To force appraisers to buy constantly changed and constantly updating ansi books they neither need nor want.

      Seriously, take a minute to look at the ‘committee’ action links I posted. Have fun reading those and marvel at the obvious special interest influence whom basically ignored like 14 out of 15 appraiser committee helper objections. They had their mind made up ahead of time, the token action of getting professional objective opinion did not yield the results they sought, so they ignored the professionals and all their helpful objections and suggestions.

      It’s much like what has been happening with covid, censor and/or ignore everyone whom has legitimate reason to disagree. Conflict of interest has become the norm rather than the exception with just about everything having to do with governments lately. Hamps book on measurement theory is better, easier to understand, and we’d only have to buy the book once or I think it’s even free to review online. Shake a stick at that. You know what they say, if you don’t really understand the issue, you may have to reconsider your answer and opinions later. Those green building idiots are just trying to sell more product and want to corner the market with a unique production and unique measurement of production they know damned well other builders and various city authorities don’t follow. They’ve got a mainline into FNMA lending and even get special reduced mortgage rates and reduced processing fees for mortgage loans pertaining to their green certified housing products. Clear as day conflict of interest, that group should be separated from a variety of checks and balances to their growing power, the sketch methodology just being one example.

      You can’t negotiate with people whom say what’s mine is mine and what is yours is negotiable.

      3
  37. Avatar PJTMC says:

    Lot of good points being made however that and 10 cents will get you a cup of coffee and that is what is ecpected; the appraisers will lay down and take it. Appraisers need to organize, hire a class action Attorney, get an injunction and sue to reverse this decision. There is ample information to prove why it will not work and is a detrement to the general public. Like my coach used to say, “talk is cheap, it takes money to buy beer”. Talk is meaningless unless we take action. Anyone on board?
    .

    4
    • I think suing them would be a tough row to hoe, but given that this is tantamount to widespread mortgage fraud, it may be the only solid legal option. Otherwise, I’m already submitting every report with the exception code and explanation in my reports.

      1
      • Baggins Baggins says:

        Great idea Jesse, get ahead of it. I’m going to wait to the day myself.

        If there is to be any class action by appraisers, my vote is to look at the continued violations of Dodd Frank RegZ on Appraiser Independence, specifically the C&R fee rule and the disregard of the original spirit of that law which would have seen amc’s wiped out overnight or suffer $10k/$20k recurring daily fined for every dang time they got away with what’s your fee and turn time nonsense which drove the appraisers fee down below what the consumer was actually charged for the appraisal service. If anyone would take this proposal seriously it could be the largest class action lawsuit in American history, could really rid us of the amc debacles which continue to perpetuate industry unraveling. Companies like Appraisal Scope, Appraisal Port, Mercury, and the big amc players whom run their own email systems could have records subpoena for discovery and it would be so easy to prove. How many damned emails does it take to place single orders? We want to know how many emails they are allowing to be sent and how much cumulative time they waste for appraisers. Wasn’t there an amc involved with this ansi deal too? The amc’s continued undue influence saying they represent the appraisal industry at large is a fabrication, an outright lie. The majority of appraisers out there refuse amc services outright. And we might just get a dollar or two in the process downstream of all the lawyers but at a minimum we could all return to gse lending without much ado, get full fees without middle men, have more access to more working opportunity, train and hire new people, just like the good old days before all the carpetbagger amc’s sprouted up like duck dynasty chia pets.

        An injunction to stop FNMA dictates? That’s novel and sure, why not. I guess everyone rally around AGA? ASB ain’t going to do a damned thing, they support forced book purchases, they don’t object to that. The problem with lawyers is someone has to pay for their services and the lawyers must prove harm. Which means successful lawsuits will come after the fact. When enough appraisers use the exception code or refuse service if the code is not accepted, they’ll rescind the order. It’s obviously a short sighted move, what was the point of developing the CU database if they would turn around and ruin the integrity of half of their sizing data. The people pushing this and promoting this are just in one branch, while other gse decision makers are in another. Eventually they will sort it out but in typical bureaucratic fashion, create two new problems for every one they seek to solve (Mises). Want to make a real difference? Wind down the gse’s completely. Government has no business using tax dollars to fund mortgage lending or insurance, it just leads to massive mal investment and gross reductions in actually successful lender risk management policy The fed remains addicted to unlimited spending and unlimited printing, mortgage backed securities are moving towards being an empty bag again. We’ll see what happens this year if they dare to raise the rates, refuse to stop printing money, or both. They can’t bury QE in housing forever and it’s about to bust out. Inflation proves it.

        4
  38. Avatar Martin Cahn says:

    I THINK ITS TIME FOR APPRAISERS ACROSS THE COUNTRY TO TAKE A STAND. IN THE FAMOUS WORDS OF NACY REAGAN “JUST SAY NO” USE THE EXCEPTION CODE EVERY TIME. I SEE LENDERS ALREADY SAYING THAT THEY ARE NOT GOING TO AHEAR TO THIS IN THEIR ENGAGEMENT LETTERS. HELL, NO ANSI Z765-2021 MUST GO!!!!

    3
    • Avatar don says:

      Your ENGAGEMENT Letter is your agreement with your customer for the amount of work proposed. Carefully word your contract and charge enough. IFF you’re working for someone else, that a different story or CONTRACT.

      1
  39. Avatar ej says:

    It simply amazes me that not one so-called Appraisal Organization has not come out and condemned this latest attack on appraisers.

    5
    • Avatar PJTMC says:

      Add the Appraisal Foundation and the appraiser not being able to be compliant and NAR who will be directly affected no doubt not to mention many appraisers are members. Write your State Attorney and let them know this may impact tax revenue and is not in the best interest of the consumer.

      2
  40. Avatar Tom Baldwin says:

    The only change for me will be how I handle upper levels with sloped ceilings. I generally use my judgement as to how functional the room is. Some have built-ins and such below the 5′ mark.

    All else is pretty much how I’ve been measuring for 38 years.

    0
  41. Avatar PJTMC says:

    First and foremost, “location, location, location” is the mantra of Realtor’s and has been for years. That is a pure and simple, unadulterated “fact”. If the appraiser is being blamed for undervaluing properties based on location, then shouldn’t the Realtors be held equally accountable for the listing prices of the varying market areas they work in (could have something to do with their PAC, ya think?). That is the absurdity of this assault on appraisers; but I suppose, in their minds, the end justifies the means. It appears there is an all-out assault on the appraisal profession at the moment from varying agencies. Now the ASC is making unsubstantiated and inflammatory claims the appraiser is responsible for everything wrong with the Mortgage Industry. It seems, once again, USPAP is irrelevant to individuals who do not work in this industry. It is easy to be an “arm-chair quarterback” when you have a “woke” agenda. “Fly in the face of” best describes this assault on the appraiser and, visa vee, USPAP (laws we are licensed to abide by). Sad to say, USPAP and the hard-working people who oversee our industry are also being assaulted by this very ASC report and treated as irrelevant just to meet their predetermined agenda. “Hmmm, so let’s have the appraiser do unethical things so they can produce perceived ethical appraisals that meet our agenda and then file a law suit when the property gets foreclosed for over-valuation”; yeah, that’s the ticket. This can happen in any market and any value range. So why have appraisers or, for that matter, regulations? I think this is the best interpretation to the ASC report. Let’s be honest, the appraisal industry is not a perfect process and has never claimed to be. Admittedly there is room for improvement however intimidation is not the answer. I don’t think this new ANSI mandate by FNMA is coincidence and seems to be in lock-step with the ASC report. The “ethical” appraiser is the last stronghold in protecting the American consumer from mortgage fraud, abuse and collapse of the economy (or have we forgotten the mortgage crash after the implementation of “B” & “C” paper by Wall Street and unscrupulous secondary market lenders?). Sad to say, this report is not surprising given the environment we now live in. I just hope the powers to be can see through this thinned veiled attempt to “defund” and eliminate anything and everything that stands in their way. I certainly hope that the Appraisal Foundation, National Association of Realtors, Appraisal Institute, Smaller Banks, State Attorney’s and any other relevant legal & mortgage industry participant can see none of what is going on is in the best interest of the consumer and business. They all need to step up and get to the bottom of what is taking place if they want to be relevant in the future. This isn’t just about appraisers, it about the very fabric of the mortgage industry as a whole and stability of our economy. Today, the appraiser, tomorrow….?

    1
    • Avatar don says:

      Real Estate Values are Local, Local, Local. Intel’s decision to build a “chip” factory is based on; National Politics that State’s economy, Intel’s board directors and CEO
      The value of a house near the church, the park, the school district or placed on a prominent lot illustrates local competition, or Market Value. Remember Local, local, local.
      The confusion is that a lender is able to sell a local loan to an investor in Warsaw Indiana or Warsaw EU. or Warsaw China? That’s the value of the NOTE or Paper, not the RE

      0
  42. Avatar John L Daley says:

    Does anyone have a website I can go to that gives an understanding of the ANSI 2021 regulations in a reasonable common sense summary?? Thanks.

    0
  43. Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

    The $25 document is only 16 pages.

    Measure from the corners of the building in inches or 1/10 inch.

    Stairs to basement count regardless of finish. Finished stairs count for level they descend from. So a finished stair well that is say 10 x 3 from 2nd floor to 3rd unfinished attic level counts a 30sf on 3rd level.

    sloped ceiling levels are from 5′ with some portions being measured inside and some accounting for stud dept. They give a drawing to show you what to do.

    Below grade is counted as below grade… that’s novel concept.

    It’s not that big of a deal. Not sure what everyone is going about with drive-by and all that. If I put a sketch in a 2055 I simply tell them where the measurements come from. I sure didn’t measure it while sitting in my car.

    https://www.homeinnovation.com/about/bookstore#Purchase%20Square%20Footage-Method%20for%20Calculating:%20ANSI%20Z765

    1
    • Avatar Koma says:

      So, if it is no big deal why make it a requirement? If it’s no big deal then why not make it a requirement for every institution involved to use this method (metric system anyone? Aaah early 1970’s fond memories). The reason everyone is going on about this is because they know in their areas this method is not being used by mostly anyone else (Realtors/Tax Assessors/MLS) and they are cocerned about using information to give credible results.

      2
      • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

        It’s not used in my area either. At the end of the day the methods are all very similar though.
        What I mean is. If they want a required standard for all appraisers. Then pick one and roll with it. It’s no big deal. ANSI, the North Carolina standard, whatever. All are similar and none are difficult to learn.
        Many of our MLS listings will say SF per Appraiser. That doesn’t always mean it’s correct. However if after April 1 they listings say Per Appraiser ANSI I will know how it was done and I’ll know it was not taken from some 7 year old appraisal done by a trainee that got it wrong.
        All that nonsense from FNMA about measuring and appraiser credibility is fiction in my opinion. Why are they doing this? I think as someone mentioned above they must want data for their AVM’s and Desktop products and I’m sure the programs run better with data that is acquired in a similar manner.
        Around here the credibility rating from high to low would be
        1. Appraiser
        2. Assessor
        3. MLS except for new construction which is often fiction | MLS pulls from Assessor most often.
        4. Realtor — They rarely measure because they’ve been taught it’s a potential liability so they pass the buck. This can result in going back to 1. and paying an appraiser to measure. Easy money.
        5. Homeowner – yep, agents will place listings based on what the homeowner says.

        So FNMA, for my market, has it completely wrong with the credibility claim.

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  44. Avatar ej says:

    Appraisers, here is your chance to tell Fannie and Lyle Radke, along with one of the makers of this disaster Bryan Reynolds that you will not submit to ANSI.

    1
  45. Avatar Chris says:

    Geez what a bunch of crybaby appraisers I’m reading about, either conform to the regulations or leave the business.

    2
    • Avatar Jesse says:

      If the options are to commit fraud by using a non-market standard, or leave the industry… I guess some appraisers can go to jail would be option three. GXX001 –

      2
      • Avatar Chris says:

        What is wrong with you? You have been instructed on how to properly measure a house for uniform standards across the country, suck it up or leave the business.

        0
        • Avatar Jesse says:

          6% of the country uses this standard. To use a different standard of measurement for the subject than for comps would be an invitation to fraud.

          3
          • Avatar Chris says:

            As an appraiser, you are to view the comparable properties and determine the correct gross living area, as best as you can, and if you think there is an error in the assessor’s reported figures you are supposed to reconcile that in your addendum stating why you have used a different GLA than the assessor. Suck it up or leave the business. You are not committing fraud by reporting the correct GLA of the subject property. What is wrong with you???

            1
            • Avatar Jesse says:

              So making up a new GLA. No. Using an non-standard measurement system. No. These amount to an act of fraud. And this is why FNMA has provided GXX001 – so, not using ANSI is still adhering to FNMA’s guidance. Good luck explaining on the stand where you got your made up GLAs.

              3
              • Avatar Chris says:

                We have been using Ansi for 30 years, you do what you want, but you have been instructed to use the ANSI system, so good luck explaining that to the judge if and when that time ever comes for you. You must be an old dog who cannot learn a new trick.

                1
                • Avatar Jesse says:

                  Ad hominem will get you no where. 5 years in. 94% of the country doesn’t use this “standard.” Good luck

                  2
                  • Avatar Chris says:

                    You have been instructed to use a new measuring system, get over it or leave the business.

                    0
                    • Avatar Jesse says:

                      Is there an exception process?

                      If the appraiser is unable to adhere to the ANSI Standard, the appraiser will provide the code “GXX001 –” in the Additional Features field on the appraisal form and must explain why compliance was not possible.

                      For example, berm homes with their entire square footage below grade would be eligible for an exception. The appraiser must provide
                      justification for an exception, lenders are responsible for confirming the appraiser provided an adequate explanation. Fannie Mae will monitor for inappropriate use of exceptions (i.e., using methods other than the ANSI standard for homes that have typical above grade square footage).

                      1
                      • Avatar Chris says:

                        I do not understand why you were making a mountain out of a molehill, the measurement is for basic homes, not for unique homes with unique square footages. Wait till a buyer measures their home or another appraiser and finds out your GLA does not match their GLA and you were making gross living area adjustments, your insurance company will pay out of court and your insurance rates will go sky high because you are an old dog who cannot learn a new trick. Good luck to you sir.

                        0
                        • Avatar Jesse says:

                          Because making up GLA’s is fraud. Because using an non-credible measurement standard is a USPAP violation. Because using non similar measurement standards can result in 5% differences in GLA and therefore fraud. Because its fraud – which is the justification I’ve put in every report since this non sense came down the pike. If your market uses ANSI, use it. Otherwise, let appraisers be professionals and not monkey’s jumping through hoops.

                          Per FNMA: GXX001– ANSI is not used by any market assessor and its use would be misleading and result in over/under valuation on a regular basis. As it would result in mortgage fraud to provide a non credible valuation based on non credible methods, the appraiser can not comply with this requirement and employs the FNMA exception.

                          You might also refer to page 36 in Working RE for more reasons not to use ANSI.

                          5
                          • Avatar chris says:

                            Have you not been instructed to use the ANSi method of measuring ??? What will you do when the Judge asks you why ??? That is if your insurance company lets you get that far. They wont, they will just cut a check….then you are screwed for insurance for being dumb. Cry all you want. You have been instructed to use ANSI. get over it or leave the business old dog.

                            0
            • Avatar PJTMC says:

              So, by your logic, the appraiser is to rely on his or her best “guesstimate” and not rely on what was once considered a reasonable, reliable data source when evaluating a comparable gla? The change eliminates, for the most part, anything being a reliable data source when it comes to comparable gla and there is no longer a “level playing field”. So, in some cases, using your logic, 10 different appraisers, using the same comparable, can potentially come up with 10 different “guesstimates” and potentially 10 different value estimates? As you have stated, when an appraiser “determines” (your word) their “guestimate” is “correct” (your word) the Assessor data, that is presumably based on physical measurements, is wrong and make a statement to that effect in the report? I’m sorry but that is preposterous and elitist. If an appraiser has proof his or her calculations have some basis for accuracy other than a “best guess” then your theory may be relevant. What I can agree with, for potential gla differences, is stating the appraiser FNMA required calculations differ from that reported by the Assessor, period. The appraiser, in most cases, has no clue whatsoever if the Assessor is wrong just like they don’t know if their guesstimate is right or wrong. I believe the appraisers are just trying to find common ground so they can do their jobs effectively and with some reasonable confidence the data they are using is accurate defensible and supported by a common, verifiable and reliable data source. It just seems counter intuitive FNMA wants gla accuracy down to the inch for a subject property however throws care to the wind when it comes to a comparable with a “best guess” being acceptable. You don’t sound like and appraiser however all opinions are appreciated and welcome in this debate.

              2
              • Avatar chris says:

                Yes, If assessor data is Obviously wrong, the appraiser is to use his/her best questamete, We in the Northeast have had these skill since our training. I would prefer to replace the comp, but if I have to use it, yes we make statements of what we did in the report. If you are from the west coast, sounds to me you appraisers are just data entry and not have critical thinking skills. You worry about liability about the comps, I would worry about liability from your lenders, investors and the borrowers. Maybe that why “they” let me appraise multi million dollar, unique, ocean fronts, Yadda yadda yadda, properties for the past 30 years.

                0
                • Avatar Jesse says:

                  I cut my teeth in the north east appraising… and ANSI is not industry practice in much of it. ANSI can be credible… but it results in more guessing, which is why it shouldn’t be used in areas where the assessor isn’t using ANSI (ie. 96% of the country).

                  2
                  • Avatar Chris says:

                    Think about it, when the appraiser start to use different GLA’s for the comparables, if they need to, it will screw up the lender’s AVMs even more keeping us employed. And especially with the conflict between the GLA of the subject property reported by the assessor which is wrong 50% of the time which you should know if you learned in the northeast. It’s really not a big deal, and that is the point I am trying to make, we have been instructed to measure the properties in a certain way. And I will say it again either conform or leave the business.

                    0
                    • Avatar Jesse says:

                      So, your rationale is spite, not credible reports. Good luck boss.

                      3
                    • Avatar Koma says:

                      Man for someone in this business for 30 years and being so angry (see your prvious posts), you might want to consider retiring yourself.

                      We are just having a conversation about this as rightly we are allowed to. Your demand that we follow them blindly and just leave the industry is preposterous. What I/we can do is not accept any orders from Fannie and if enough of us do the same then it’s on Fannie to realize and figure their problem out.

                      3
                      • Avatar chris says:

                        Angry..not angry my friend, just got back from an 8 week vacation in Asia. I am as Happy Happy as could be. I will be retired at the age of 56 in less then 6 months living in paradise never having to work again.

                        I am just amazed. We have been instructed to measure houses with ANSi, it is not a big deal, just like we were told to report past sales histories, prior assignment notifications, UAD etc, etc…. it really is not a big deal.

                        0
                        • Avatar Jesse says:

                          Happy Retirement.

                          2
                          • Avatar chris says:

                            Thank you, after 30 years, i am done appraising. My point is that we have been instructed to use ANSI, why get all worked up over it. What Asia has taught me is worry about the big things, be happy. There is noting that can be done, so…..get over it ! its not a big deal.

                            1
                            • Avatar Jesse says:

                              Fraud is a big thing… thanks.

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                              • Avatar chris says:

                                Jessie, Maybe I am missing something…What fraud are you taking about???

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                                • Avatar Jesse says:

                                  The only credible way to value real estate is to have similar units of comparison. If you have to “make up” means of adjusting the GLA of comps (because in 96% of the country ANSI is not the standard of county measurement, much less others) then you have to have a credible means of that adjustment. IF however, your county consistently measures homes in a market, even if its not the most precise in any one given instance, then you have consistent units of measurement. If you live in a non-disclosure state or where the assesor is drunk while measuring… good luck, luckily that’s not my market. But if I use ANSI I would regularly either 1) make up a means of adjusting county measurement to ANSI or 2) under/over value real estate by 5%. Knowinly using non credible methods to come to non credible results is fraud. So, the appraiser must determine the credible scope of work (USPAP) to make a credible value determination. In my market, the use of ANSI would be fraud. Therefore, everyone of my reports will disclose that and employ the exception:

                                  “Assumption/Limiting Condition #2 – In an effort to use the same units of comparison between the subject and comparables, in order to provide credible valuation results, the standard of the county is deferred to whenever possible and credible for the purpose of analysis. Per FNMA: GXX001– ANSI is not used by any market Assessor and its use would be misleading and result in over/under valuation on a regular basis. As it would result in mortgage fraud to provide a non credible valuation based on non credible methods, the appraiser can not comply with this requirement and employs the FNMA exception.”

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                                  • Avatar chris says:

                                    So what you are saying is measuring the subject under ANSI is fraud, because the comps were measured another way. If you then see the assessor info is incorrect, make a statement as to why, no big deal. If you know the assessor is always off, I hope you are reconciling the comps in GLA in the 1st place…comes back to those critical thinking skills we appraisers are suppose to have, other wise we are just form fillers.

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                                  • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

                                    So Jesse, many here and in my market as well notice that the assessor often gets it wrong. It’s just painfully obvious. Would you accept that obvious wrong as credible. I would not.

                                    I just had a property last week. The assessor measured the dept of the dwelling 1′ too long. It was a cape design. On the upper level they also included some unfinished space as finished and did not include the stairwell.

                                    Ironically when all was said and done and I used ANSI we ended up very close.

                                    You wrote “IF however, your county consistently measures homes in a market, even if its not the most precise in any one given instance, then you have consistent units of measurement.”

                                    Maybe I’m reading you wrong but it seems you are conflating Accuracy and Precision. If your county “consistently measures” then they should get precise results.

                                    If they “consistently measure’ incorrectly, then they will get very precise yet in-accurate results and as I noted above it is often painfully obvious.

                                    If you precisely measure a dwelling to 1” and read your ruler wrong that’s precise and inaccurate. This is what I see in several assessor’s records especially in the 2nd and 3rd levels of transitional dwelling. The assessor is very precise in their measurement method of choice. They are precise in their method of reporting by whichever means they choose. Say for instance a 24 x 42 Cape Cod 1,008 down 504 up. The method simply being to count upper level as 1/2 of lower level. No dormers even though the dwelling has 2. Now I look at MLS photos and see the interior is clearly more than 12 feet wide upper level. I have MLS room dimensions stating the room is 16 feet wide. I see 6′ tall bookcase, etc..

                                    So the assessor has great precision in measuring and reporting but is about 150sf off the mark in accuracy. I appraise the identical home next door and end up with larger measurements yet I do not make an adjustment for GLA. I simply tell the client why I have not done so and maybe even include a photo from the comparable upper level. I consider that my job and why I was hired in the first place.

                                    In the above scenario my measurements will not align to any published source yet they will be adequately precise and more accurate. At the same time all my reporting is credible. In fact I lend additional credibility to published data. I’m not going to inaccurately measure a dwelling just to match some other published data method. I have way too many counties and sources of the reported GLA to try and “do it the way they did it”. that would be impossible. I do not have to “make up” anything. If it’s there I use what I see. If it’s not I don’t make it up. I may tell the client I have my doubts the comparable GLA but no proof.

                                    FNMA is making this bed, they can sleep in it. In the grand scheme of ANSI vs the new Condo research guidelines, this ANSI thing is a cakewalk.

                                    So… I use ANSI to the best of my ability the way I always have done. Actually I will now tweak a couple of minor things that won’t make any real difference.

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                                    • Avatar Jesse says:

                                      Using the assessor STANDARD does not mean using their MEASUREMENT. If the county measures to the nearest foot, that is the standard, not the measurement. Of course if the county is wrong you make corrections (ie don’t include the 10×12 enclosed porch) but you don’t make up a new measurement (9.9×12.2 because… I guessed). I sincerely can’t be asked to rebut opinions of people who are failing to read the counter point.

                                      USPAP says the appraisers determines the scope of work, every FMNA report is required to be USPAP compliant, so that’s the end of it. If you have a consistent way to read the assessor’s tape for them after the fact – congrats, I won’t get caught playing that game of make believe (call it critical thinking, it’s guessing at best). If you want to be a form fillers using FMNA’s non credible scope, so be it – but I’ll continue to use critical thinking skills and use USPAP and recognized standards as my guide.

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                                      • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

                                        Jesse,
                                        I’ve read this entire thread, taken a class on ANSI last year, etc… been using the method very closely for 38 years. Had 4 + years of mechanical and architectural drafting before I graduated high school. So I have a little experience in measuring things and drawing them.
                                        You wrote:
                                        “Of course if the county is wrong you make corrections (ie don’t include the 10×12 enclosed porch) but you don’t make up a new measurement (9.9×12.2 because… I guessed). I sincerely can’t be asked to rebut opinions of people who are failing to read the counter point.”

                                        I haven’t asked you to rebut anything if you are speaking to me. You however are the only person that seems to bringing up make believe numbers. Why would anyone take an assessor’s dimensions and “guess” that they are incorrect and make such a minuscule difference as you suggest.

                                        I can understand someone discounting the assessors measurements when they say it’s a 2 story home and several sources note it to be a 2.5 story with 500sf of finished space with a bath on the third level. That’s not make believe. That is data source verification.

                                        You seem to suggest that anyone using ANSI will be guessing and making up measurements. Changing assessors figures to unrealistic degrees of accuracy and without any support from another source.

                                        Not sure how ANSI standard could cause all that.
                                        I’m just trying to figure out how the opponents to ANSI here are determining it to be so harmful.
                                        I just don’t see how it is going to change the results anyone gets by all that much. Some of the changes are not even part of the Standard. They are part of the Annex which is not the Standard.

                                        Again as I mentioned the only time I see concerning differences in appraisal sketches is a result of incorrectly drawing the sketch. It’s a spacial awareness issue, a mis-read measurement issue, etc. I don’t think I can recall a single time when multiple competent appraisers measured a dwelling and used whatever means they desired and had the results have any impact in value comparison. They are all very close. Varied precision used by each but all the results acceptably accurate to the market.

                                        That’s with regard to the subject we get to measure. No guessing there.

                                        Regarding comps. If you have a Comp that the assessor says is 2 Story 3,500sf. The MLS says 2.5 Story at 4,000sf. The MLS listing has a current appraiser’s sketch included indicating three levels and 4,000sf, and the MLS photos show the 3rd level finish is equal to the level below.

                                        I’m reporting 4,000sf and explaining why to client. That’s not guessing and it’s not changing the assessor methods nor results. It happens all time here.

                                        FNMA does not suggest that we guess and ‘correct’ other measurements. In fact they say they know the other measurements might be different but we are to adhere to ANSI. Well in my case the other measurements have always had the potential to be different. I don’t guess what they. I use verification sources.

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                                        • Avatar Jesse says:

                                          The county I grew up in measures one neighborhood to include the second story as GLA, one doesn’t, that’s their standard for each neighborhood, they’re consistent… annoying but consistent. They did this based on who entered the sketch originally. If I use ANSI, I have to then “make up” an open to below adjustment for comps, easily in excess of 150sf. Nearly none of the counties in my area add staircases (I can think of two plans where they were added, and that county measures to the nearest foot). A few staircases is another 30-60ft. So, with ease we now have a 200sf difference between the ANSI measured subject and the county measured Comp. In some markets that’s a ton of money.

                                          If I apply ANSI consistently in analysis, I commit fraud as I am not using consistent units of comparison – OR – I play pretend and make up some number (and that’s not a game I’m willing to play). IF however, I used the county standard as my guide, I have consistent units of comparison. Are they the most accurate… based on what, some arbitrary standard? No. But are they reliable for value determination? YES.

                                          To force appraisers to use a non-credible standard is an act of fraud. To use non-credible standards is an act of fraud.
                                          To use an non-credible measurement standard is a USPAP violation.
                                          I will not be party to FRAUD.

                                          You keep straw-manning the weakest arguments possible. Outside of the ANSI Faithful, no one knows what this made up standard is. The county assessor of the above county openly mocked this new “standard,” and rightfully so. New construction is placed in the public record not by the builder sketch measurements, but by the measurement standard of the county.

                                          So if as you say – “I don’t think I can recall a single time when multiple competent appraisers measured a dwelling and used whatever means they desired and had the results have any impact in value comparison. They are all very close. Varied precision used by each but all the results acceptably accurate to the market,” would you support FNMA forcing appraisers to use a worse standard in the majority of the country? Those who are standing up to this nonsense are doing so because we are critically thinking professionals who know this is 1) at best a waste of time, 2) at worst an invitation to mortgage fraud, 3) another step towards hybrid appraisals (at least they’re still illegal in VA for an appraiser to perform, for now).

                                          GXX001-

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                                          • Avatar Jesse says:

                                            Additionally, I would urge those who advocate for ANSI to read WorkingRE’s article in the latest edition: Stairway to Confusion. Another great perspective on how ANSI is being used to commit real estate fraud.

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                                          • Avatar Chris says:

                                            Are you seriously trying to say that if you measure the property properly using ANSI. With an accurate measurement of the true gross living area, that you will be committing fraud??? Seems to me your reports prior have not represented the true gross living area of the property then, No matter how your assessors measure, you seem to be very knowledgeable on what counties do what, so I am still unclear how you think reporting the actual gross living area under the new guidelines is fraud. My friend, you make no sense, I don’t know how you were doing it before, but either way your measurement should have been very close to the actual gross living area of the property regardless of what tax assessors and counties have recorded. From what I am understanding you are saying is you have provided inaccurate gross living area figures in your appraisal reports. It blows my mind that we are even having a conversation about this.

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                                            • Avatar Jesse says:

                                              You’re reading what you want now. With no basis in the words on the page. I’m not sure how many times I can type this – STANDARD DOES NOT EQUAL MEASUREMENT. You can use the county’s standard and come to a different measurement than the county, but that resulting measurement will be more consistent then applying two completely different standards to your subject and your comps as evidenced above.

                                              IF you use a different standard of measurement for your subject than your comps, you are not producing a credible report. If you use non-credible standards of comparison to derive adjustments, then your value is not credible. If you do this knowingly, you’re committing fraud. If you’re comfortable making up an adjustment to the GLA of your comps based on hunches… go ahead. I don’t find that credible, maybe your peers do.

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                                              • Avatar Chris says:

                                                So what you are trying to say is if your actual measurement is 300 ft² below your assessor’s reported gross living area, you still report the assessor’s gross living area in your report. Because the gross living area figures of the comps would be similarly measured as the subject property was. If I understand you, you are the one committing fraud by misrepresenting the actual gross living area of the subject property based on an assessor’s reported figure. And now when you measure properly, you will have to reconcile the comparables to similar gross living areas as the subject property if they are similar models and then you will have to make a statement in your addendum explaining what you did. No wonder you are so worked up.

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                                                • Avatar Jesse says:

                                                  Misrepresenting according to what? The biblical cubit? Sure, I’ve been way off. Oh… you mean the pretend standard used by nearly no assessors, one of the largest suppliers of real estate data. ANSI is a standard, but not the only one. As Thomas stated, there are other ways to skin the cat, but I’ve presented a very obvious example of where ANSI produces a nearly 10% difference in measurement.

                                                  There is a strong “ANSI is the only truth” mindset among the ANSI faithful. If I paid all that money and then was confronted with clear and obvious deficiencies, WorkingRE articles, classes full of appraisers ridiculing the standard I had adopted, I’d be pissed to.

                                                  Again, if you chose to use ANSI moving forward, and have good market data for these “guesstimate” of adjusted GLA… good on you. I don’t see how that’s credible in my market, and in the review work that I do of ANSI measured work, I don’t see them doing this due diligence that your speak of. For me, in my market, and for all the appraisers for whom the use of ANSI would result in fraudulent reports, I will protest this and every report will be marked with…

                                                  GXX001-

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                                                  • Avatar Chris says:

                                                    So you are saying if you measure your house and it’s 300 ft² smaller than the assessor’s reported figure, you draw your sketch to match the assesses reported gross living area?

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                                                    • Avatar Jesse says:

                                                      The “standard of measurement” doesn’t equal the “measurement” of the county, this has been described at least 3 times so far. No, I use the measurement standard of the county, not the measurement of the county because, in my market, that is the most accurate GLA source (with some exceptions).

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                                                      • Avatar Chris says:

                                                        Well now you have to use ANSI. Not the standard of a measurement of each county. Seems to me they will have more accurate gross living area figures from you. No wonder you’re so upset. Talk about all your comp data being wrong now. Get ready for all the letters asking you why you’re changing your comp data on previously used comps.

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                                                        • Avatar Jesse says:

                                                          Nope, using ANSI would result in fraud in my market. Thanks for playing. Move Along. GXX001-

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                                                          • Avatar Chris says:

                                                            How is using an accurate system of measurement fraud? You are now required to use ANSi, just reconcile your comparables and explain what you’ve done. Time for critical thinking skills and not just that entry.

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                                                            • Avatar Jesse says:

                                                              Yes, critical thinking is keeping me from committing fraud by using non-equal standards of measurement. Here’s the article mentioned above, and I’ve addressed your question at least three times.

                                                              https://www.workingre.com/stairway-to-confusion/

                                                              Stairway to Confusion
                                                              by C. Brett Bowen

                                                              There has been considerable discussion over the years about gross living area (GLA) measurement standards. The ANSI Z765 standard gets the lion’s share of the attention, and is the most widely referenced standard in the industry by far. It can also be the most difficult to interpret, particularly when it comes to stairs. Here’s why.

                                                              It is primarily important to recognize two very important facts:
                                                              1) a standard is nothing more than the definition of a unit of comparison and
                                                              2) it is the appraiser’s responsibility to be consistent with that definition.

                                                              First, what do I mean when I say that a standard is nothing more than the definition of the unit of comparison? The unit of comparison for something is critical to the understanding of that thing.

                                                              If I go to London and buy a souvenir, and the cashier says the price is 15, I need to know what unit of comparison we are talking about. Is that 15 Pounds Sterling or 15 Euros? Did the cashier happen to notice my accent and give me the price in US Dollars? The unit of comparison in this example is the currency. Knowing the currency is critical to my evaluation of that price. The same applies to GLA. The standard defines what unit of comparison we are using. In other words, when I use the term “gross living area,” what do I actually mean? The standard that I’m using is what gives meaning to that term.

                                                              Second, as an appraiser, consistency with the definition is actually more important than which definition is chosen. It is not merely consistency with oneself, or even with other appraisers, which is key: it is consistency with your data which is most important. If you believe that your standard of GLA is best, but those who are reporting comparable sales data are utilizing a completely different standard, it is your responsibility to either change your standard, or convert the data to match your standard.

                                                              Maybe this example will provide some clarity on this issue: Properties A, B, and C are the same floor plan as the subject property and have sold recently. The builder’s architect has reported the GLA of that floor plan to be 2,800 square feet using their standard for calculation of GLA. An appraiser measures the subject property using a different standard and arrives at a GLA calculation of 3,000 square feet. Before the appraiser utilizes properties A, B, and C as comparables, it is imperative that the appraiser recognizes that their standard is inconsistent with the standard which is reported in the market. Addressing the inconsistency is far more important than whether or not the appraiser’s measurements are “right” or “better.”

                                                              This lack of consistency is being a big problem and a big business. There are many appraisers who market their measurement services to agents with the specific understanding that their interpretation of ANSI will likely result in a larger GLA than what is reported. Why is this a problem? Ethics. If I am knowingly using a method of arriving at GLA which is substantially different from the methods employed by most architects, builders, and tax assessors, then the assignment results are knowingly misleading. If I know that on average my method of measurement produces a GLA 5% higher than what is typically reported of my comparables, then choosing that method without dealing with the inconsistency is unethical and a violation of the Uniform Standards of Professional Appraisal Practice (USPAP).

                                                              Consistency
                                                              So how do you deal with the inconsistency? There are two solutions. The first is simply to adopt the standard (or the interpretation of the standard) which is prevalent in my market. The second solution is to revise the GLA of my comparable data by extrapolating what the GLA of the comparable data would be under the methodology utilized by the appraiser. While this solution is theoretically ethical and USPAP compliant, it comes with some obvious flaws in practice. How do you know what the GLA of that comparable would be if it were calculated using your preferred method?

                                                              This brings us back to the confusion regarding ANSI and stairs. While the recent update to the standard (ANSI Z765-2021) provided some additional clarification in some areas, there remains some significant room for interpretation when it comes to the stairs. This is particularly true when the subject lacks a basement.

                                                              Two-story homes are very common in my market but basements are not. A common floor plan includes a switchback staircase to the second floor with a closet underneath which extends several feet under the staircase with a sloping ceiling in the closet. The question is where do you count the stairs? On the first floor, on the second floor, on both floors?

                                                              Increasingly, I am finding that appraisers are interpreting the standard to include the entire staircase on both levels. I’ll be the first to admit that this interpretation has some basis, although it does create some inconsistencies with other parts of the standard, and seems to be at odds with the methods of architects, builders, and assessors (at least in my market). This interpretation relies most heavily upon the illustrations.

                                                              The published standard includes several illustrations which are intended to clarify several elements of the standard, however, the illustrations alone can be confusing, especially if you don’t read the full standard itself. The illustrations depict a home with three levels: first floor, second floor, and a basement. The floorplan depicts a staircase descending from the second floor to the first floor, and then down to the basement. If you just look at the illustration, it indicates that the staircase is included in the GLA on both the first and second floors. However, it is important to read the standard to understand why. The standard states that “the area of both stair treads and landings proceeding to the floor below is included in the finished area of the floor from which the stairs descend…” (ANSI Z765-2021, page 6, emphasis added). The Annex to the Standard, which provides additional commentary, states that “stairs that descend to an unfinished basement are included in the finished square footage of the first level…” The parts of the standard which indicate that ceiling height under the stairs doesn’t matter, all appear to be in the context of stairs on the basement level. Therefore, if there is no basement, then there are no stairs which descend into the basement which should be counted on the first floor. The GLA above grade (ie, the area under the stairs which does not descend into a basement) appears to be treated differently.

                                                              My primary evidence is that of the strict adherence to the minimum height requirements in the same example. In their example, the area which slopes below a ceiling height of 5? is not included in the GLA calculation. Therefore it would be contradictory to exclude such a space in one part of the house and then include space which may have a much lower ceiling or even be entirely inaccessible. In other words, why would an area which has a ceiling height less than 5? under a staircase be counted toward GLA, while an area with the same ceiling height in a living room be excluded? My conclusion is that it is not intended to be treated differently.

                                                              With all of that said, the evidence within the standard for my interpretation is not actually the reason for my methodology. My interpretation closely matches the methods utilized by builders, architects, and assessors in my market, thus providing a consistent unit of comparison which results in credible assignment results.

                                                              I must reiterate that whether or not you agree or disagree with my interpretation is not the point.

                                                              If your data suggests an alternate interpretation, then utilizing the method that I just described may not only be the wrong choice, it might even be unethical.

                                                              About the Author
                                                              Brent Bowen is the President of Texas Valuation Professionals, Inc in Plano, Texas and has been appraising residential real estate in north Texas for 23 years. He graduated from Baylor University with an enthusiasm for both economics and real estate, which made real estate appraisal a perfect fit. Brent is always looking for ways to innovate the appraisal process, and enjoys sharing those ideas with his staff as well as others in the appraisal community.

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                                                              • Avatar Chris says:

                                                                I don’t know Jesse, we are now instructed to use ANSI. So if you do not you are submitting a non-compliant report. Your argument sounds fine by using the same standards however your argument is baseless because now you ever required to use ANSi. Maybe I do not understand properly because everyone I know, knows tax records can be horribly wrong and we have been taught to think critically regarding verifying gross living areas for our comparables, and it’s not hard to do when you can compare your measurements with the assessor’s measurements. So good luck with it, stand on your principles and I wish you the best.

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                                                                • Avatar Jesse says:

                                                                  I think critically about every tax record I research, which is why I look at everyone before I go to the property, and examine it on site to confirm or correct everything on-site to be able to detail every difference – down to the unit of measurement that the county uses. This is how I know my market data. The use of ANSI in some markets will result in fraudulent reports. It seems you’re convinced that’s not the case in your market. Great for you. Allow us to be professionals who understand our markets though.

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                                                              • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

                                                                Re: The staircase closet issue. He like many others is way over thinking this…

                                                                You have a staircase… Count it. the fact it has a closet makes no difference. The closet is within the area of the staircase.

                                                                Staircase counts on finished level from which it descends and the finished level below. So it matters not if a closet exists. It is absorbed in the staircase.

                                                                He also is mis-thinking in my opinion of the varied GLA results. Architect, Assessor, Etc. He leaves out the key element and the heart of the appraisal…. His OPINION. He is supposed to use ANSI and then reconcile it to the comparable data he has. Adjust or don’t adjust and explain why or why not.

                                                                What does he do when he gets Plans and Specs and the Architect says 3,000…. the Assessor has measured and says 3,075 and he measured it at 3,150… Let’s say that happened in 2018 before the ANSI scare. OMG how did he reconcile that? Three different standards. Three different results. Would the ethical thing to do be to notify the client, turn down the report, and suggest fraud may be or become present? Come on. No, it would not have happened like that in 2018 and it will be no different with ANSI in 2022.

                                                                I don’t know what world the rest of you live in but that has been life since day one for me as far as appraising goes.

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                                                              • Avatar BA says:

                                                                Thank you for a very complete and logical opinion on this issue. I agree and feel it is possibly an ethic violation as you have stated here. I guess we will see if /when the higher levels begin enforcement actions.

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                                                              • Avatar BA says:

                                                                Great read thank you

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                                          • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

                                            Jesse,

                                            ” 3) another step towards hybrid appraisals (at least they’re still illegal in VA for an appraiser to perform, for now).”

                                            When you write VA do you mean Virginia? I am from Central Virginia. Which county does not report area above the second floor as living space?

                                            Your comment is somewhat confusing..

                                            one doesn’t, that’s their standard for each neighborhood, they’re consistent… annoying but consistent.” I’ll break it down and maybe you can clarify… but if this in Virginia can you give me the county or neighborhood or maybe two addresses so I can see what’s going on.

                                            “”The county I grew up in measures one neighborhood to include the second story as GLA,” —- Ok, I’m with you here… seems pretty normal.

                                            “one doesn’t,” — One ‘what’ doesn’t? One other county?

                                            “that’s their standard for each neighborhood,” — that’s whose standard for each? that would be two standards. Are we talking two standards for one county? Two standards for two counties?

                                            “they’re consistent… annoying but consistent.” — this statement can only be if we are talking about two counties. Otherwise the one county has two standards that are anything but consistent.

                                            Again I see no need for you make up numbers. Let’s use an example from the assessor that has their head up their…. I mean the one that doesn’t count 2nd story GLA.

                                            You measure your subject per ANSI
                                            1000 down
                                            500 up

                                            They report 1,000 total.

                                            You report 1,500 on GLA line. Because that’s accurate and the truth. Or if easier you could report 1,000 and place the 500 on an other item line.

                                            Either way you need to explain why this is done. Then for the comps you must have some knowledge as to the 2nd story. Otherwise you would not know it’s not being reported. In fact you must have some knowledge as to it’s size, functional utility, finish, etc.

                                            So basically you have a lot of narrative to write explaining that you best data is perhaps from your files, MLS, etc. You can then place a note the 2nd level GLA is estimated and from what source. You claim to know what the areas of concern area in SqFt but for some reason also need to ‘invent’ them?

                                            “If I apply ANSI consistently in analysis, I commit fraud as I am not using consistent units of comparison” Yes you are. The unit of comparison is the SqFt.. It’s your job to measure and report the subject accurately. Then analyze the data available to you and apply it in context to YOUR work.. not the work of some guy 60 years ago that the assessor still follows.

                                            FNMA is telling you.. look measure to ANSI, then regardless of how, when or why you data develops, if it doesn’t align to your ANSI finding, just tell us how you think it should be handled,,,, but don’t defer back to some other “this guy from the 1920s methods” standard.

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                                            • Avatar Chris says:

                                              Well said!!! My guess about the second floor was attic area whether be a one-story rancher with some attic or a two-story house with an attic finished, I put finished attic on the open lines at the bottom of the grid all the time, I know appraisers who include finished attic and gross living area but then they have to compare it to much larger differing types of properties and their reports make no sense. Which is why they want us all to use the same system of measurements, they should have done this 30 years ago and the realtor should be forced to use the same measurement system and be taught how to accurately measure properties without worrying about liability of course.

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                                            • Avatar Jesse says:

                                              This isn’t the 1920 measurement, this is in new construction in the greater Richmond area, are you looking at assessment records? Hanover County, the plans north of Pole Green Road are a great example, its been a few months since I did one there and I’m exhausted of what is basically a USPAP scope of work discussion. The assessor who entered one plan included all the open to below, the assessor who did another didn’t. It’s annoying, but it’s consistent per plan. Hanover doesn’t include staircases at all (pockets of Chesterfield do, they measure to the nearest foot, etc, etc ,etc).

                                              If I use ANSI in the plan that included the second floor open to below, I short my subject 100-200sf In value because I used a measurement that’s not credible. Could I make up an adjustment to the GLA, sure, but I don’t find that credible. I’d rather use the standard that the county used for those properties. It doesn’t make for a clean CU, but that’s not my problem.
                                              My report is accurate, and I didn’t have to make up an “open to below” adjustment, a “staircase” adjustment, et al. Why… because I use the same standard of measurement.

                                              While I understand that the “SqFt” is the unit of comparison, you’re straw manning again. The Sqft you get from ANSI and the Sqft your get from the county assessor is not always the same, therefore the units of comparison are NOT the same if you use two different standards of measurement. This is why Chris has been so adamant that you need to “think critically” and make changes to the comps to bring them into ANSI… based on…something. Can you do that… sure, but as the WorkingRE article says, you’re opening yourself up to a lot of questions.

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                                              • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

                                                Ok, look I’ll tell you this much.

                                                I work in Central VA. Richmond, Hanover, Chesterfield, Goochland, Powhatan, Henrico, New Kent, King William, Louisa ( mostly Lake Anna water front ), Caroline county, Powhatan, you get the idea.

                                                About 38 years ago myself and another beginning appraiser that is a prominent name in town stated work at an office. There was one other “beginner” .. he had just retired as a local assessor. We had a buider / appraiser present, and another couple of appraisers. Plus a full sales outfit.

                                                I later worked with another retired local assessor that is now one of the biggest top producer sales people in town.

                                                I have seen the work, been taught by, been friends with, reviewed, or been asked to appraise for the biggest names in the Richmond metro. what I mean by that is not that I am any better than someone else, it means I have seen a =LOT= and/or have a =LOT= of other appraiser’s work. Thus far everything so closely resembles ANSI that a change to ANSI would be insignificant.

                                                I have never seen it done the way you describe. … and yes I look at the assessors cards. I used to sit for hours on end at Hanover and Henrico flipping through property cards.

                                                If you are talking about new construction just call the builder. Most builders even have the floor plans on their web site.

                                                I can’t think of anything I have done lately new construction north of Pole Green although I think I did do a review over there recently. At any rate you made it sound like Hanover county didn’t count all of second floor. I assume now you are speaking of two story foyers.

                                                If you know or have a very good idea as to the situation just equate the situation. You don’t have to “cheat” you subject just because you use ANSI.

                                                Believe me based on the review work I do and all the work I have seen and been a part of for the past 38 years, either I am misunderstanding what you are writing or you are the guy that is doing it differently from the vast majority of your local colleagues.

                                                BTW, will you do me a favor. Tell all the appraisers you meet in this region to arrange their reports such that when they have more than 3 comps to put Comps 4-6 page directly after Comps page 1-3. I don’t why everyone insists on placing the addition comps at the end of the report. It’s incredibly frustrating to read in review.

                                                If you think your addendum are going fly more power to you. It’s your work and your opinion.

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                                                • Avatar Jesse says:

                                                  My peers do a lot of interesting things, like including split foyer/multi-level basements in the GLA. Lots of complaining there too (as if FNMA hasn’t been clear in the selling guide for 7 years). We can agree on one thing, appraisers who don’t put their 4-6 comps directly behind 1-3… are strange. I hate seeing that too.

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                                              • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

                                                Jesse,

                                                “Hanover doesn’t include staircases at all”

                                                Can you go here and explain to me how the staircases are -not- being counted. Built in 2019 north of Pole Green Rd. Note that stairs are on side of home opposite garage and the skectch clearly indicates all that area is two story ( counted twice )( Per ANSI: Include from descending and area below. in this case 2nd and 1st )

                                                https://parcelmap.hanovercounty.gov/

                                                Search for 7774 Millikin Ln

                                                It’s a dead ahead two story. No vaults, no two story foyers. Sketch is present on Residential Improvements tab.

                                                It’s your MLS #2125326
                                                As seen here on realtor.com
                                                https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/7774-Millikin-Ln_Mechanicsville_VA_23116_M97506-02322

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                                                • Avatar Jesse says:

                                                  Was referring within the context of the post, with open to below space, the stairs aren’t included in the second level. Of course Hanover includes the stair case in properties that have no open to below. There are a lot of plans north of Pole Green, as I said, I’m exhausted by this scope of work debate, as USPAP has said it all.

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                                                  • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

                                                    Ah…. ok… well go back to the link at Hanover and type in 4806 Queen Carolyn Ln.

                                                    You have roughly a $700,000 home. That’s where your comps will be. $650 to $725 if you are real lucky. and that 40sf for the stair case is what you believe reason enough to not apply ANSI to your subject. So you have a 1/2% on one comp for a staircase GLA situation in that part of Hanover. You get to the bottom line and say it adjusts to $690K just add a 1/2% in your mind/notes.. $693,450. That’s just one comp. I don’t know anyone that can tell if a property really worth $690K or $693K but even if they could ANSI would not be in the way.

                                                    All the other unknowns are ok, but knowing there is maybe 40sf of stairs there is an issue. You don’t want to allow for 40sf because whatever. You know for a fact it has been omitted. You know roughly how large it must be. but it would be fraud to mention it and handle it. Hell subtract the staircase out of your subject, place it on a separate line at bottom.

                                                    Staircase – Staircase – Staircase – Staircase — Boom 3 comps no adj. All GLA aligns to county and your subject is measured to ANSI standards. ANSI does not define how you REPORT. GLA is not mentioned in ANSI.

                                                    There was a joke going around one of the shops here a long time ago. It was back when the market was booming. I think one guy had an order in like Mooreland Farms or something. It was a really expensive home, and the guy appraised it for like $3K less than the sale price. One guy chimed in and said ‘you realize you just cut an appraisal for what amounts to an upgrade on a refrigerator in that neighborhood. LOL, not even the whole fridge just an upgrade. Everybody busted out laughing.

                                                    Oh well, one man’s tree is another man’s forest.

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                                                    • Avatar Jesse says:

                                                      Still as strawman, still not recognizing that this can be up to 10% of the GLA… and personal property can’t be included in an appraisal, so not sure how a refrigerator upgrade is relevant: B2-1.5-03, Legal Requirements (06/03/2020). One man’s fraud is another man’s gray area.

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                                                      • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

                                                        You totally missed the point. Re-read what I wrote. The joke was that the appraiser thought he knew better than everyone else to a ridiculous point of precision. No one made an adjustment for a refrigerator.

                                                        I guess you never appraise properties with wine refrigerators, bread warmers, ice makers, aux freezers, SubZero fridge,….. all built in and what one finds in the property and location I mentioned.

                                                        Ah, the ole Strawman comment. What a joke.

                                                        Jeese, I have been recognizing the inaccuracies of tax records for 38 years here in Richmond. So have most of the Appraisers and Brokers I have been associated with. We have never had an issue communicating that to our clients.

                                                        You keep throwing the word fraud out directed at anyone that has and/or will be following ANSI. I assume that you must also be an attorney. Why don’t you contact FNMA and set them straight?

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                                                        • Avatar Chris says:

                                                          I think Jesse has been misrepresenting his gross living areas by using what the tax assessors report, I am not sure how he has been drawing his sketches, but I don’t know how you draw your sketch after measuring her house and then try to match that to tax records. I have seen appraisers copy and paste the assessor sketch to their reports without ever having to measure the house. After I measure the house the square footages are obviously always incorrect and then the comps need to be readjusted within the body of the appraisal. I have no idea why he keeps bringing up the word fraud, and when you measure a house and other appraisers measure a house it should be within a couple square feet of each other. And Jesse never answered my question of what he does when an actual gross living area figure is so inaccurate compared to the assessor’s figure. I think Jesse is projecting that he has been in fact committing fraud every time he misrepresents the actual gross living area of a property. If somebody else can give me their opinion on my opinion I would be greatly appreciate it, because I keep trying to understand what Jesse says and it just does not make sense.

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                                                          • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

                                                            Chris,

                                                            I’m not sure what he’s doing. I couldn’t figure out how I could not know who he is when I realized he is from my area.. I got mixed up and thought he had been appraising for 30 years. That was another person’s post. Anyway he has only been appraising here for 2 years. I read through his web site blog. He has some interesting perspectives that differ 180 from my experience but hey…

                                                            Anyway, I’m pretty sure by May of 2022 everyone will be on the ANSI train. Same ole song and dance. If FNMA said from here on out you have to take two photos of the front of the dwelling several appraisers would say “oh hell no” like it’s some big deal.

                                                            I can remember years ago. Seems like 15+ now, my appraiser friend called me up and asked me how I measured fireplaces ( on the outside ). I said what are you talking about? No I don’t measure that. His reply, well I just took an ANSI class and we are going to have to do that. I said that’s crazy. He had gotten mixed up, called me back. ‘No, it’s ok, I was wrong, we are already basically using the ANSI system the way we have been doing it.’

                                                            Wouldn’t it be funny if on April 1, 2022 that FNMA says “fooled you didn’t we?”

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                                                            • Avatar chris says:

                                                              Thank you for your response, I just couldn’t figure out why someone would be so upset to call measuring with ANSI would lead to a fraudulent report. Crazy. But he seems to be pretty firm about it. Everyone should b on the same page regarding attic and other spaces, I am so tired of hearing why we dint include a finished attic as GLA, That is when I make a line item adjustment for finished attics vs. unfinished attic, so simple. And I still don’t know how someone can include the 2 story open to ceiling family room or an open foyer as GLA just because the assessor does. Crazy !!!

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                                                            • Avatar Jesse says:

                                                              Been appraising 5 years. Your ability to research speaks for itself.

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                                                              • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

                                                                I said here for 2 years. As in central Virginia. Here, I’ll quote it for you…. “appraising here for 2 years.”

                                                                Initial Certification Date2020-02-13
                                                                Rank Effective Date2020-02-13
                                                                Expiration Date2024-02-29

                                                                As you noted earlier, the concepts you have mentioned were all related this locality. Hanover, Chesterfield, local customs, etc..

                                                                I know you got your license for a few years in PA as well but that has nothing to do with the comments you made about specific local issues.

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                                                      • Avatar don says:

                                                        Personal Property SHOULD be properly described and documented with supporting info. PP ain’t necessarily appliances, they are frequently things like Water Shares, or Shares in a sewering system, etc.

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                                        • Avatar Chris says:

                                          Well said !! The tax records and public records we have access to now gives us the ability to correct a wrong gross living area for a subject property that we have measured. I have yet to do this because a liability concerns, but it could save many homeowners from having to pay access taxes in the future. As I will be retiring in the next couple months, I will leave this up to the younger appraisers to deal with. The goal is to give more accurate data so that all of us in this industry can work together to get these loans done, for 30 years I have been hearing appraisers cry about being replaced and I have not seen that happen nor do I foresee it happening.

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                        • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

                          I have to agree with you chris. For someone to suggest that using ANSI is fraud is quite hard to believe. By that logic, here in my market, practically every appraisal written for the last 40 years by every appraiser is fraud.

                          “The Market” Basically being the MLS, Agents, Buyers, Sellers, Brokers, basically lump all Finished Sq.Ft. into one lump sum. Above ground, finished over a detached garage, basement finish, etc..

                          It has only been in the past several year that our MLS would even report basement finish and many agents still don’t know how to report it correctly.
                          Yet we appraisers follow FNMA direction and break all those items down. Contrary to what “The Market” is doing.

                          That is not fraud. If anything it would be fraud on the part of those that publish “The Market” data.

                          Agents want a 1,000sf ranch with a finished basement to look to the public as a 2,000sf dwelling in marketing.

                          I have requested for multiple decades that our MLS would simply break down their reporting to show Above grade, below grade, etc. Finally they changed a few things. What the people that control the market and MLS came up with is this…..

                          Ranch 1 story
                          Finished SqFt. – 2,000
                          Finished SqFt in Bas. – 1,000
                          Unfin.Sq.Ft. in Bas. – 0

                          Now you might think that is 3,000 SqFt of finished space. 2,000 above grade and 1,000 below. But no, it’s a 1,000 SqFt ranch with a 1,000 SqFt finished basement.

                          As I said, even via that convoluted “newly updated system” many agents either ignore the basement fields altogether, report them incorrectly or some other combination.

                          Now the assessor will use a different system. So for every basement home I have to compare the numbers used and determine how they came to be as best that I am able.

                          So this argument about ‘can’t use ANSI because that’s not what the market is doing’ makes no sense to me. I can use ANSI, but I will still have to figure out how reliable the comparable data is, or which comparable version is most accurate if they differ. That’s just the nature of my market and the elements that control our MLS data ( hint:it’s not the appraisers ).

                          I think what FNMA is doing is short sighted but it’s no big deal for me. I think they have created a complex solution for a problem that doesn’t really exist.

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                          • Avatar raymond says:

                            ANSI should be a big deal for those still doing mortgage appraisals. The Desktop Idea is more of a big deal. Boy, its amazing how major clients for appraisers can tell appraiser how to do their job. Has anybody, out there, ever told their dentist how to fill their cavity, how fast to do and what their fee will be. LOL

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                            • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

                              raymond,

                              “ANSI should be a big deal for those still doing mortgage appraisals.”

                              can you explain why?

                              I do some mortgage work. I do not do Desktops. I tell my big name clients what my fees are, how much time I will need. I’ve been using about 95% ANSI for 38 years.

                              How is it going to be a big deal for me?

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                          • Avatar chris says:

                            Thank you for the support,

                            I just don’t understand some appraisers acting like the sky is falling in…..our industry is always changing, get over it, frankly we all should have been on the same page with measurements 30 years ago.

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                            • Avatar Koma says:

                              Chris, For someone telling others to get over it you sure can’t. Over a month of posting and you’re the one still freaking out. WOW!

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                          • Avatar Chris says:

                            I agree with you 100%, the latest travesty is one county just reassessed, and they round it up every figure so in order to get the sketch to close some walls could be three four feet larger than they should be adding hundreds of feet to the subject properties and our comparables. We therefore now have to use our critical thinking skills after measuring the house and compare that figure to the assessor’s figure and then start making some blanket statements about reconciling the comp similarly. The benefit is this is that the lenders cannot trust assessor data and we appraisers get to keep our jobs.

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  46. Avatar PJTMC says:

    Thank you for making my point….

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  47. Just a reminder that this blog is for appraisers but not a place for colleagues to disrespect one another and no place for rude and snide comments.

    We encourage lively debate, but ask that you be respectful of others. If you disagree with someone, please express yourself respectfully. If you disagree with an opinion, feel free to respectfully challenge that opinion. Do not engage in personal attacks (including name-calling) on fellow commenters/appraisers. Please keep it professional and conduct yourself as you would within your own organization. Snide or rude comments are not constructive and certainly not helpful. We count on your cooperation and appreciate your support!

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  48. Avatar Tammy says:

    I agree I would be more worried about Desktop/third party sources measuring the home. To be honest I believe this whole ANSI is for the 3rd party sources they will be using to do inspections, not necessarily the appraisers. Just a thought.

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  49. Avatar CJK says:

    I just took a 7hr course on ANSI, just to find out that I have been measuring homes like that for 39 years. As for the desktop reports, I will let others do them. I never had an issue with the desktops, but I will not sign off on another person’s inspection and sketch. In one course I just took, the lawyer said that 60% of the complaints against appraisers were over square footage. Just remember the same people who are pushing this will be the same ones who will file a complaint with the state when the properties end up as REOs. As for the state regulators they will look for any reason to destroy you with USPAP violations. They need to generate income, my board sent me a 5 page letter telling me that they would not give me credit for some of my CE, which was funny because my classes were approved by the Real Estate Commision, hypocrisy has no bounds.

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    • Avatar Chris says:

      If appraisers were taught to measure properties accurately, using ANSI is not a big deal. But only to those appraisers have been using assessor data and falsifying their sketches to match tax record gross living areas, I did reviews for 5 years and I know the appraisers who are too lazy to actually measure a house. I know this because I told my lenders I have to do inspections and order to give them a value and since they needed a new appraisal they said go ahead, I was then able to compare sketches to my sketches and could easily see who wasn’t bothering measuring. Can you imagine reporting a gross living area and not measure the house. Blows my mind, but that is why the appraisers are considered what we are today, because of appraisers like that not doing the job.

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    • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

      “I just took a 7hr course on ANSI, just to find out that I have been measuring homes like that for 39 years.”

      Exactly what I expected. This comment about a small percentage of the country using ANSI I believe is a canard. I think everyone I have ever met uses a method that is so close to ANSI that any difference would be minuscule.

      It may not be a State, City, or County standard…. but the appraisers are following it to a very close degree.

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  50. Avatar EJ says:

    90 days until retirement !
    Have fun
    Good night

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  51. Avatar Chris says:

    Just got back from Asia after 2 months vacation, I only read this post a couple days ago. I am just having trouble understand that why somebody, especially state certified appraiser, would say using the standard measurement would be considered fraud. Could you please explain that to me?

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    • Avatar Red says:

      There was a lot to read to get up to this point, however, I think you are missing the point about the potential for fraud (at leas from my perspective). It is not difficult for an appraiser to measure a home to ANSI standards. But, if it is a known fact that most or none of the county assessors in your service area use the ANSI standard, and virtually no realtors use the standard when reporting GLA in their listings, it forces the appraiser to make guesses as to what the GLA of the COMPARABLES might be. It is not the measurements of the subject that I am worried about. I live in the Denver Metro area, where there are a great deal of multi-level and bi-level properties. If I were able to measure each of the comps, then it would be no problem. But since I value my life, there is no way I am going to do that. Even the best “guestimate” from a seasoned, well educated appraiser intimately familiar with his/her service area could potentially be off enough that it could materially affect the value. Additionally, there are instances where there are multilevel homes homes with one partially below grade level and one completely below grade. The assessor, MLS listings, and the market all consider the partially below grade level to be GLA, not basement area. Now, let’s say I have one comp which happens to be a model match, but the lower level on that one is completely above grade, unlike the subject which is 1 foot below grade. Isn’t it misleading, or at the very least, confusing to the typical reader of the report to show the subject as having far less GLA but a much bigger basement when they are exactly the same home with the only difference being 12 inches of dirt on the front side of the home? The lower level of the subject and the basement could not be adjusted at the same $/sf. Most readers would be confused as to why the comp is more than 25% larger in GLA with a wild adjustment, but then see an entry in the “additional features” showing the difference in GLA and just making the same, but opposite, GLA adjustment so the adjusted values show like they are supposed to? I am guessing that you may live in an area that does not have multi-level or bi-level homes. In that case, it is understandable why you might think it is a bogus argument. But in a market with many many many multilevel/bilevel properties with many different floor plans, the danger of turning in a report with guesses about the comparable measurements is very legitimate concern. An occasional extraordinary assumption is one thing, but to be consistently guessing GLA on every comp in your report is a whole other ballgame.

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      • Avatar chris says:

        I am amazed that there are so many worried about “guesstimating” the actual GLA of a comparable, doesn’t matter design, you look at the comp, look at assessor drawing, look at what the realtor has down as room sizes, old files where the appraiser measured a similar model…etc….I have a hard time believing that appraisers around the country has been mis-reporting the ACTUAL GLA of a property because they cannot look a comp and use coital thinking skills to estimate the comp being larger or small in GLA. Think about sitting in a court room and some lawyer killing you that you have been an appraiser so so many years and you cant look at a comp and estimate the GLA…..

        The comment you use is ” comp #1 has been similar reconciled in GLA as it is the same model as that of the subjects.” As to the ocher comps you have to made your best judgement…just use a comment that sometimes the appraiser has to use an estimate of GLA as the assessor includes open to above area as GLA or includes the garage or a finished basement or a beloew grade area…etc, ext…..and the appraiser has the right to amend the report if better data becomes available. NOT a big deal people……just need to get those brains working again and not be form fillers or to just lazy to think. I have a hard time believing appraisers out there have been supplying the wrong GLA by including an op[en to below area for large 2 story family rooms. Blows my mind !

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        • Avatar Red says:

          I definitely don’t agree with the open area of a two story being counted as GLA. In 22 years of appraising, I have never seen another appraiser even do that, so I am unsure how the other guy has been doing it that way for so long without any problems. However, as far as being in court, I would rather explain why I won’t just use unverifiable guesses, rather than explaining why simply putting in a comment relieves me of any and all legal repercussions if I happen to be wrong. But, since you are retiring soon and moving to another country, I can see why you have a more cavalier attitude about it since it won’t really affect you. Again, it is not the use of ANSI standards that is the problem. Measuring a house isn’t that difficult. The problem is that only one of the links in the chain (appraisers) are forced to follow a rule, but none of the other links (real estate agents, assessors, builders, etc) are required to follow the rule, and then appraisers gets blamed when the chain falls apart. But, I do wish you an excellent retirement at such a young age. I can’t deny that I am jealous!

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        • Avatar John L Daley says:

          Hey Chris. Appreciate your comments. Can’t argue with anything you say. In fact, rules change constantly, and we always get these friendly reminders to be in compliance. I accept that. The issue I have….like every change for us….is that we will be called on the carpet by the UDCP to explain our measurement being different than the last appraiser’s measurement, and the county, and the listing agent, and even the builder. It always comes down to us. Two things to note. I hate when the mortgage process goes backwards because of issues. The consumer always loses. I get when mistakes happen. But when petty crap comes back it delays the process. And you and I both know that when they control more of what we do, the less our opinion matters, and the more work it takes to keep the process moving. I feel sorry for consumers. Then again, I want to be paid for the extra work it takes me when I am off by 100 SF from the UDCP findings, and the appraisal comes back to me to explain it. Even when I am right. More control by Govt means more pain.

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          • Avatar Chris says:

            If the underwriters are bothering you they clearly did not read your comment that said due to assessor and realtor misreporting of actual gross living areas the appraiser has made an estimate. This is completely acceptable because we are the professionals and I find it hard to believe out there that are misrepresenting the actual gross living area of the home just because the comps have been misreported. I’m a 30-year appraiser and appraised more counties than I can count and at no time did we ever be constrained by assessor figures and underwriters. Put that comment at the top of your addendum so they cannot miss it and you have no liability cuz the underwriter signs off on it when she looks at your comp photos and says yes this one’s a little smaller this one’s a little bigger the report makes sense. And again I say I cannot believe appraisers are counting open two-story family room as additional gross living area it is one of the most absurd things I’ve ever heard in my career.

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            • Avatar John L Daley says:

              Regarding your statement that UW are not clearly reading my comments. It doesn’t matter. Not sure where you are from, but I guarantee a majority of UW are not competent enough to understand appraisals and rely on UDCP results to help them. You answered my point. Appraisals will get kicked back because of UDCP results….just like it happened when the 1004 form was changed….until everyone gets more educated or finds there is a reasonable balance in the differences we as appraisers have in our appraisals. I don’t really care about your last comment about two story homes. I agree with you. You and I are still being scrutinized by the UDCP when our results are different. And that is what pisses me off. Wasting time trying to explain to UW what you already said in your appraisal. I get what you are saying. But we have to have faith that most of us get what we are doing. By the way…I am a 35 year person in finance, accounting, and appraising. It doesn’t matter. Its about Govt taking control of our industry. The fact there are GLA differences is a joke. You know the value before you even do the appraisal. We are all being played.

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              • Avatar Chris says:

                We are not being played John, it is ridiculous for somebody to include a two-story family room as gross living area. It doesn’t matter what the realtor is called a GLA or what the assessor calls the GLA. Or even the fact that you have to explain to an underwriter why there is a difference between the assessor’s GLA and the actual GLA. That is part of our job. It’s not about government takeover, it’s a bad a standardization of measuring throughout our country. And if the appraisers have been using the right system from day one, they would not have had to come out with this. I am in Pennsylvania, we have never had a problem with an actual gross living area measurement compared to what an assessor has reported, so I’m just amazed that there’s such an uproar about properly measuring a house. And it seems from your comment that you’re more upset that a government is telling you what to do. It seems to be pretty prominent these days. The fact is when a comp is misreported and gross living area, it is up to the appraiser to explain that it has been misreported. And I’ll say it again I’m amazed that we are even having this conversation regarding measuring properties, some appraisers want to use gross building area when they’re supposed to be using gross living area. It’s really that simple, they have been doing it wrong most of their careers.

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  52. All heated area is GLA even if the living room has 12-foot ceilings up to the second floor. There is drywall, electrical, perhaps plumbing etc. That’s why the new ANSi rule sucks

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    • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

      What does the ceiling height have to do with it? You lost me.

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      • Avatar chris says:

        Martin Cahn wrote……”All heated area is GLA even if the living room has 12-foot ceilings up to the second floor. There is drywall, electrical, perhaps plumbing etc. That’s why the new ANSi rule sucks”

        I still don’t understand why these appraisers are so upset about using ANSI? Am I missing something???

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    • Avatar chris says:

      What does a 2 story open to the 2nd floor and ceiling height have anything to do with measuring a houses’ floor plan for GLA, or a 2 story open foyer???

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  53. The new ANSI says we should not count open areas anymore, I’m saying that’s incorrect.

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  54. The new ANSI standard says we should not count open areas anymore, I’m saying that’s incorrect.

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    • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

      You don’t count the open area on the level you are standing on ( typically the 2nd level ) as Sq.Ft.. Basically if you can’t walk on it, it doesn’t get counted as Sq. Ft. towards that floor.

      It doesn’t mean you have to ignore the architectural style, quality and detail.

      I still don’t get the 12′ ceiling room situation. We have homes here that are two story and the 1st level has 12′ to 14′ ceilings. The second level might have 10′ ceilings. If the house is 20 x 60 it’s a 2,400 Sq. Ft. house.

      1
      • Avatar chris says:

        I agree, maybe that is why I am confused, they want to put that “open to below area as GLA because it is “inside the house and should be given credit. But they want to add GLA (if the assessor does” and not make a design adjustment instead. I think I also understand they do not want to stop using assessor figures and instead must do things the right way now…OK I got it….I thought I was missing something, Just got have Asia after 2 months, still fighting jet lag a bit and getting my appetite back on USA time. Its a 12 hour difference…I reviewed reports for 5 years and saw things that boggled the mind on what some appraisers try to get away with….

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  55. That’s completely wrong you do count areas of the 2nd level or any level if it’s heated and within the exterior walls as GLA. It’s always been this way. If the 1st level is 40 x 40 and the 2nd is 40 x 40 measuring the exterior, but 10 x 20 open to the level below is open, you still include the 40 x 40 as GLA on both levels.

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    • Avatar chris says:

      No you don’t !!! No wonder you all are so upset, If you can NOT stand on it, its NOT gross living area….Read the definition of Gross Living Area…..just make a design adjustment. So some of have inflating the GLA by not deducting open to below areas…..Classic !!!

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  56. Here is one short paragraph from an old Appraisal Insititute Q & A pamphlet (During the home inspection, the appraiser will measure your home by its outside walls instead of by the interior surfaces. This will actually make the total square footage slightly larger as the space between the exterior and interior walls is included in the measurement.)

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    • Avatar Steve says:

      ANSI = “Walkable Square Footage”

      Thus the rule about 2 story foyers and ceilings with <5' clearance.

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      • Baggins Baggins says:

        Let me tell you about the time I appraised a mountain home quite literally built for height challenged persons. True story. I was like, this is what it must feel like to be an 8 ft tall human.

        Specialty housing exists and some people don’t want maximized height. ANSI like totally ignores a thousand different specialty housing types.

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  57. Here is another Note the date on this article (How Appraisers Measure Square Footage
    Appraisal Process / August 25, 2020
    Knowing the total square footage of your home is essential to determining its value. In fact, the total heated square footage is one of the primary factors that a residential real estate appraiser will consider when assessing your home’s value. As this information about your home is so important, the appraiser will carefully measure your home during the inspection phase of the appraisal report. When the appraiser measures your home only the heated square footage will be included in the stated gross living area on the appraisal report. This includes all of the living space and rooms that are heated and cooled under the same roof. For example, an outdoor patio would not be included in your home’s heated square footage, but an enclosed sun-room connected to the AC unit would be. The reason your home is measured in this way is that only the livable space of your home is relevant to the appraised value, and outdoor living spaces, such as decks, are better reported as amenities to your home.)

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    • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

      That is a brief summary to layman. We don’t measure by the manner you describe down here. I’ve never seen a sketch from any appraiser than doesn’t take out the open areas.

      The assessors also remove the open areas.

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      • Baggins Baggins says:

        Obviously the heated area as qualifiable square footage does not work.

        I like the ‘walkable square footage approach’, less the bias applied to smaller people.

        ANSI group is like all sorts of biased. They reject specialty housing for small persons. They reject cool comfortable garden levels for those adverse to super hot homes with high energy use. They hate on voluntary engagements and want to turn everything into a scary dungeon basement where clowns live.

        1
  58. Well Chris, all i can say is you do it your way, and I’ll do it the right way. However, scuttle-but has it, FYI Fannie is in the mist of retracting the use of the new standard because they realize it’s wrong.

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    • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

      “FYI Fannie is in the mist of retracting the use of the new standard because they realize it’s wrong.”

      That would be a smart move on their part.

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    • Avatar PJTMC says:

      Hmmm, perhaps someone at FNMA is monitoring the appraisers blogs?

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      • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

        They would be wise to. The Anex of the Standard has a sketch in it. It looks like a cross section of a Cape Cod. The grade is drawn in a the dwelling is above grade on the front and just maybe a foot below grade on the rear. Crawl space below.

        The comments say to report the that entry level as below grade. So let’s say the upper level is just a finished room.

        That means the report will show maybe a 600 GLA with no BR and no Baths then say a 1200 fully finished basement with 3 BR and 2 Baths. Everyone is going to love that.

        The general concept of ANSI is fine but FNMA can certainly screw it up. Plus appraisers will have little ability to work with ANSI to get clarifications and changes suited to appraising.

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    • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

      North Carolina adopted a standard for all their agents and appraisers….

      From their guidelines…… Re: Stairs
      r. If the opening for the stairway exceeds the length and width of the stairway, deduct the excess open space from the upper level area. Include as part of the lower level area the space beneath the stairway, regardless of its ceiling height.

      They also include a sketch showing the two story foyer removed.

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    • Avatar chris says:

      LOL…if there is not floor to stand on, its not GLA…I can not even believe we are having to talk about this…..its a design adjustment…… You are putting the value of a 2 story family room, under gla, not design….LOL OK i get it now why they are freaking out over ANSI…. Now I get it…..LOl So what you are saying, if I build a 2 story 40′ x 30′ with 20 foot ceilings and only 1 floor, the GLA is not 1,200sqft, its 2,400 sqft house ?

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      • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

        That seems to be what they are saying. I’ll have to find a photo of a place I appraised and see how they would measured it.

        Go to photos 19-21 to see the expansive open areas. I don’t know anyone that would measure all that open area as GLA. … and yes you have to compare it to like design or make a design adjustment.

        https://www.redfin.com/VA/Richmond/513-W-7th-St-23224/home/112982867

        … and from this very forum. A Washington State appraiser..

        https://appraisersblogs.com/appraisal/what-is-gross-living-area-and-what-does-it-include/

        bottom of page.

        “Upper floor areas with space ‘open to below’: if you can’t walk on it, it’s not GLA! (angel wings don’t count!)”

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        • Avatar chris says:

          Exactly……After 30 years of appraising, nothing surprises me anymore. I had an appraiser who went over a mile away in Philadelphia, from the low economic area, jumped across main streets and used 3 comps that were all shells, gutted down to the brick walls as comps for a newly renovated house. The problem was there were 5 renovated sales on the Block, all sold within a few months….He over appraised by over $100,000, this was 15 years ago…..When I called him to ask and inform him I had to submit the review and I was wondering how something like this could happen…he said he was a good appraiser and his assistant did the report and he didn’t review…..I replied, you live down there, you should already know what that area sells for. The lender was going t send him for license revocation to Harrisburg and wanted me to handle it for them, but before they could they went down with the housing crisis. Talk about getting lucky !!! Me and him……

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    • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

      Where are you getting the info regarding FNMA being in midst of retracting the ANSI standard? I still get emails daily from clients that April 1 is a go.

      I’m not doubting you, I would just like to know why it’s not surfacing.

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  59. Avatar PJTMC says:

    Hmmm, perhaps someone ar FNMA is monitoring the appraisal blogs?

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    • Avatar chris says:

      They probably realized the hell they were going have when the appraisers had to changed their GLA’s by measuring the right way . That would make the UAD system tracking go nuts….They came out with the c and q rating for just that reason, 1 report says average another says good and another says all renovated…that’s the only reason they came up with the rating…..

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  60. Chris, 40 x 30 with one floor is 1200 Sf. The same 40 x 30 with 2 floors is 2400 Sf even if the entire 2nd floor doesn’t cover the entire 1st floor. Read the two articles I posted one is straight from the Appraisal Insititute. In fact, if I went back into my books from when I worked at Fannie, I could literally show you sketches that we used in the handbook/selling guide to show appraisers that when measuring, you measure the exterior perimeter. In using this method, it does NOT exclude any open areas. So now all of a sudden, we are supposed to believe that has changed and it has been wrong all of these years. Don’t think so. HERE IT IS STRAIGHT FROM FANNIE SELLING GUIDE. “Gross Building Area
    The gross building area

    is the total finished area including any interior common areas, such as stairways and hallways of the improvements based on exterior measurements;”

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    • Avatar chris says:

      That is the craziest thing I have ever heard. you are confusing gross “Building area” with gross “living area”. Are you a commercial appraiser ??? There is no floor, you cant stand on it, its not GLA. And again, no wonder some appraisers are going insane when told how to properly measure a single family residence with ANSI. And one more time I will say, that is why they want all of you appraisers doing it wrong all these years to correct your ways…..we all want to have better data, counting areas with no flooring to stand on is not GLA. you can say it all you want, but you are wrong and have been taught wrong since the day you started appraising.

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    • Avatar Tammy Moos says:

      Been appraising for 25 years and to use a floor that you can not stand on is absolutely crazy. I have worked to an assessor’s office they never did this. I have worked in a large office and was not taught this way and currently work in my own office with 3 appraisers and none of us would ever use a floor that you can not stand on as GLA.

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  61. No, the craziest thing is you saying that everyone is wrong but you. You have now read it from AI, another acritical from an appraisal study, and Now I sent you the exact verbiage from the Fannie Mae selling guide.

    “What’s the definition of insanity, keep doing the same thing and expect a different result”

    In fact, I think you should deduct the open area out of your cost approach!!! LOL. It’s free to build and put a roof over it LOL 🙂

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  62. No, 23 years Residential

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    • Avatar chris says:

      I was taught by an office who was doing 300-700 appraisals a week. we had 50 appraisers, I have done reviews for 5 years….My7 office was going 30-50 appraisals a week in 3 states. I have never seen anyone count a 2 story family room as additional gross living area because its not gross living area, its open to below area, it is a design adjustment, not GLA, you are giving value as GLA without the ability of USING it as GLA. And once again I say to you…no wonder the appraisal gods want a standard of measuring for appraisers. So stick to your guns, let me know what the GSE do to you when the time comes. And I am not the only one telling you are wrong.”

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  63. Avatar CJK says:

    It appears that some appraisers do not know the difference between GBA and GLA, that explains why FNMA wants a standard. You never count the open-air space in the GLA. It appears some of the appraisers have been part of the problem. If you do not know what you are doing you better take a class on ANSI. If you have been doing it correctly ANSI is nothing new.

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    • Avatar chris says:

      Thank you !!! Some people just can not admit when they are wrong….

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      • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

        Chris, I’ve posted multiple example of why they are doing it wrong and the only thing they come back with is that they are right.

        ANSI – they are wrong
        AMS – they are wrong
        State of NC -they are wrong
        This very web site from a WA State appraiser blog essay- they are wrong
        Central VA appraisers and assessors – they are wrong

        Here is the instruction from AMS which was developed from a —consensus— of people in the real estate industry.

        1. “Open Foyers — Interior space which is open from the floor of one level to the ceiling of the next higher level, is included in the square footage -for the lower level only-. ” — they used italics for this

        2. All “GLA” located on any upper level must be floored, functional, finished space.

        You really can’t get much clearer than that.

        No appraiser that has been doing it opposite of published standards for their entire career is going to openly admit they are wrong.

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        • Avatar Chris says:

          You are absolutely correct, and I am just amazed that they have been doing it so wrong for this many years and we’re never called out by anyone.

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          • Avatar EB says:

            Good, I was beginning to think I’ve been doing it wrong for the past 33 yrs. How can you call open areas living area if you can’t live on it ?

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  64. Avatar Jesse L says:

    Given the letter sent from NAR valuation committee to FNMA on 02/07/2022, it will be interesting to hear FNMA’s response. Text below:

    February 7, 2022
    Hugh Frater
    CEO, Fannie Mae
    Midtown Center 1100 15th Street NW Washington, DC 20005

    Dear Mr. Frater:
    On behalf of the 1.5 million members of the National Association of REALTORS® (NAR)1, I write in response to Fannie Mae’s recent announcement that appraisers will be required to use ANSI® Z765-2021 (American National Standards Institute®) for measuring, calculating, and reporting above-grade and below-grade square footage for appraisals requiring interior and exterior inspections with an effective date of April 1, 2022. NAR requests that Fannie Mae delay implementation of this new requirement until Freddie Mac, FHA, VA and USDA adopt the same requirement to reduce confusion. Real Estate professionals and appraisers also need more time to become familiar with how the standard is applied.

    Different Rules by Secondary Market Participants Cause Confusion
    NAR urges Fannie Mae to coordinate with all secondary market participants to implement any changes to appraisal measurement requirements. The adoption of the ANSI standard by just Fannie Mae will result in confusion in the real estate market. For example, for conventional loans, appraisal management companies and lenders do not know which GSE a loan is being sold to before the appraisal is assigned. So, it would be impossible for an appraiser know if conformance with ANSI standards is required.

    More Time Needed for ANSI Education
    NAR is committed to sharing information with the real estate community about the new ANSI measurement requirement, but this will take time. Currently, there is no definitive source for square footage nationwide. Tax assessors, appraisers and real estate agents are not required to conform to any law or regulation for measuring square footage.

    Given this is such a significant change, the implementation date should be pushed back for the myriad professionals engaged in real estate transactions to learn and adjust to the measurement standard. There should also be a grace period during which real estate agents and appraisers provide feedback to the GSEs to work through any issues that could arise from the new measurement requirement. We have received numerous questions about impact on measurements for appraisals and any resulting changes to housing values, especially for older homes. Here are a few examples:

    • In areas where alternative standards are used that deduct the staircase from the upper-level living area, the difference in measurement could be in the range of 50 SF. Measuring to the nearest inch should be good in concept, but is not practical in many cases due to obstructions and other design elements making it difficult to locate the outside of the foundation wall. Having allowances for minor rounding seems prudent. Most homes are measured to the outside wall, but if precisely applied it is to be to the outside stud or outside foundation for a full brick veneer.

    • The areas that will cause the largest problem are those classified as “basements.” If any portion of the space is below grade it is to be classified as a basement (with some exceptions). In some areas, there are developments with homes that have low profile berms along a section of the house, which, in the strictest, sense makes the property a basement home. However, no market participants see it that way.

    • Home designs with sloping ceilings on second and higher floors are common in many parts of the country. This is true for new and existing homes, but particularly true for older housing stock. Often the slope is utilized as a closet, which may or may not have a conforming ceiling height. Sales activity has demonstrated market acceptance for decades. Adoption of a standard the market does not recognize will do nothing to produce more credible appraisal results. Additionally, many homeowners may feel cheated when their residence is now described as many square feet smaller than they bargained for, and much smaller than described in the appraisal when the house was purchased. Similarly, homes where the second-floor ceiling is not more than 7’ in height is not to be included in the room count and above-grade GLA totals according to ANSI standards. Many older homes have this issue, such as some Cape Cod style homes.

    • How will use of the ANSI standard impact review of comparable properties? What if properties in local MLS systems and assessor records are not ANSI-compliant? The appraiser may not know what method an MLS listing or assessor used to calculate the GLA.

    • ANSI measurement standards do not apply to condominiums. To date, Fannie Mae has not issued any guidance for condominiums, and yet on April 1, appraisers must conform to the standard. This is insufficient time to allow for appraisers to learn the requirements.

    • The 1004 Appraisal form is being retired as part of the UAD and Forms Redesign project. It would be beneficial to delay implementation of any measurement standard until the forms are redesigned and the new language can be included on the forms.

    It is understandable that adoption of common standards can often result in clearer and more efficient processes. However, there is a concern that eliminating the ability of highly trained and experienced professional appraisers from having the freedom to decide on appropriate methods and practices, poses its own risks and limitations. Currently, the GSEs and others rely heavily on a single approach to value when other approaches and indicators are available and that appraisers are trained to utilize. The result has been some criticism on value outcomes that lack thorough development in favor of quicker and less costly reporting. NAR supports any methodology that will result in the most accurate and reliable appraisal results that increases the confidence of the users of appraisals and thus, the housing market as a whole. In order for ANSI to be a reliable measurement standard, it is essential that this standard be adopted by all of secondary market participants (VA, FHA, USDA and Freddie Mac) to avoid confusion for real estate professionals, buyers, sellers and consumers.

    Leslie Rouda Smith
    President, National Association of REALTORS®
    CC: Sandra L. Thompson
    FHFA Acting Director

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  65. Avatar PJTMC says:

    Thank you Ms. Smith for your articulate letter to FNMA. Your observations are absolutely spot on from a user of appraisal services. Now, if the Appraisal Foundation will address potential violations of USPAP would be nice. Before I’m crucified for speaking my piece, my references are the overall issue of the changes. Sad day when some are not allowed to debate without being bullied.

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  66. Good morning Ms. Smith,
    Great letter to Fannie, one additional very significant point that should be included. What about builders, A builders cost include every square inch in building a home. Deducting open areas from the GLA by appraisers will start an uprise among builders who include the entire exterior parameters of the home when building as GLA. So, when an agent takes a listing from the builder, who states the home is XYZ in GLA, and then the agents use to list the home. Now, all of a sudden an appraiser using the new standard comes in ~400 square feet less, and then uses comps that are also smaller. Now we have world war iii.

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    • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

      I just pulled a random floor plan. The home just sold built new for $1.3M. It has a two story foyer. The second level notes “open to below”. It is not counted in the architects figures for that second level.

      Here are the data sources.

      MLS – 4,500 SF above grade
      Actual Plans – 5,218 SF above grade + 2003 Fin. Bas. ( 10,400 SF under roof, garage, porches, etc. )
      Assessor – 0 – no data

      I knew something was up simply by studying the comps. I called the builder and they sent me plans. So it really doesn’t matter on new construction if you verify your data. That’s pretty much standard procedure around here for new construction.

      Have another plan from different architect, $1M home. The open to below is removed. Property not in MLS, no assessment data.

      I can assure you no builders are leaving money on the table regardless of what figures are reported.

      Why would an appraiser knowingly use 400sf smaller comps if someone reported the open to below in GLA for a comp. The appraiser should be able to determine what’s going on. That’s why FNMA wants verification sources.

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  67. I’ll admit it, you guys are wrong!!! LOL LMAO

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  68. Avatar Raymond says:

    Hmm…. well the classes for ANSI and the Desktop reports are popping everywhere. Some benefits, for some, I guess.

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  69. What’s the GLA here?

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      60×48, + 60×48, – 10×20.

      Did it all without paying a dollar or buying any special interest books.

      Thank you, thank you. (cheerful applause).

      Let’s try something harder.

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      • Avatar Seneca says:

        Nothing hard about split-levels. Nothing hard about measuring any house.

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        • Baggins Baggins says:

          My sentiments exactly. Adhering to local market standards is a no brainer.

          Reporting in a fictitious manner in a way contrary to the entire market surrounding.

          That’s where it becomes difficult.

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          • Avatar Seneca says:

            Nothing fictitious about reporting split-level sq ft for the subject or the comps. The lower below grade level gets counted in the basement section. Always was no matter the market.

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            • Baggins Baggins says:

              Seneca, this illustrates the confusion and lack of cohesive conversation on this matter.

              The same as what you said, but opposite is true in CO.

              We have always included garden in agla above grade spaces, that is our market.

              How would you feel if we stepped in and forced you under threat of penalty to do it our way instead?

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  70. Avatar David J Desjardins says:

    I have been appraising for 33 years and square footage has never been an issue. The most important factors when appraising is yes you are trying to get as close as you can to the square footage however knowing your market area and understanding the methodologies employed with different reports knowing how to complete paired sales analysis when markets are changing is far more important to arrive at a value than being a few square feet off one way or the other. Fannie Mae should be looking at the appraiser’s due diligence in completing a report as there are so many other factors more important than GLA (Who is so far off that the value is misleading, I have no idea). I am a Certified General Appraiser who has completed over 9,000 reports from single families, condos, land, acreage, commercial reports and in 33 years was not reported to the Appraisal Board of Appraisers for misleading GLA numbers. This appears to me that they’re is NO NEED for ANSI measurements being a part of appraisal methodologies and by instituting additional requirements which are not relevant to arrive at supportable values will create a shortage of Appraiser’s which is already the case in my state, MAINE. Please do not require us to make additional changes as our clients are supportive of what we provide them with and creating additional work will only end up increases costs and losing Appraiser’s. Is that what’s important at this point when inflation is at 40 year highs?
    Before instituting this ANSI requirement, look at all the issues this will create and it will not help lenders nor Fannie Mae receive any reports which will drastically change the market other than negatively change the profession.
    Thank you
    David J. Desjardins

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    • Avatar chris says:

      I am still baffled that some appraiser actually include 400 sqft of “living area” (or more) when there is in fact no “living area” on a 2 story family room or open foyers How much “additional” work is their really when an appraiser has to measure a 2 story family room or foyer and deduct it from the sketch??? What does inflation or a lack of appraisers have anything to do with measuring a house accurately??? The reason “they” are coming out with a standard is in fact because some appraisers are NOT reporting accurate GLA and instead are report Gross Building Area on the 1004. What do you guys do when there is a 2nd floor with that 400 sqft??? Do you add 400 sqft to the comp so you can make the adjustment for larger GLA ??? Again, I am baffled by this situation with so many appraisers acting like the world is coming to an end and all the hardship will occur is the ANSI is utilized.

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        • Avatar Chris says:

          Earl… What business is of yours? I am reading that appraisers are acting like the sky is falling in because they have to measure a property correctly and competently under standards. Are you also one of the appraisers who have doing it incorrectly for more than 30 years? Because if you are I would love to know your thinking process of using gross building area instead of gross living area. That was taught to us in appraisal 101.

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      • Chris, I’m baffled that you still won’t believe what you have read, unless you didn’t read what I posted days ago. I posted the original ANSI standard for measuring when it was developed by ALL the players Fannie, Freddie, HUD, VA 1996. All of them concluded that you measure the entire exterior of the 1st and 2nd or 3rd levels and that’s the GLA. I also posted an acritical from the Appraisal Institute above that says the same thing. So, is everyone else wrong and you’re right? SORRY YOU’RE WRONG!!

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        • Avatar chris says:

          Martin, this is right from Fannie – what in the world are you talking about ??? See item #4 (I marked them)

          Here are some items for appraisers to consider when using the ANSI standard1 :

          1. • Measurements are taken to the nearest inch or tenth of a foot, and the final square footage is reported to the nearest whole square foot.

          2. • Staircases are included in the GLA of the floor from which they descend.

          3. • Basement is any space that is partially or completely below grade.

          4. • The GLA calculation does not include openings to the floor below, e.g., two-story foyers.

          • Finished areas must have a ceiling height of at least 7’. In a room with a sloping ceiling, at least 50% of the finished square footage of the room must have a ceiling height of at least 7’ and no portion
          of the finished area that has a ceiling height of less than 5’ can be included in the GLA.

          • If a house has a finished area that does not have a ceiling height of 7’ for 50% of the finished area, e.g., some cape cods, in conformance with the ANSI Standard, the appraiser may put this area on a separate line in the Sales Comparison Grid with the appropriate market adjustment. The report will be ANSI-compliant and also acknowledge the contributing value of the non-GLA square footage.

          It clearly says (DOES NOT INCLUDE) Like I said, I am still baffled by the resistance and the crying over this.

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          • I have been trying to tell, The new standard is WRONG…. It’s never been done this way before, Excluding open areas. Again, if you ready all the Articia’s I’ve uploaded here you will see that.

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            • Avatar chris says:

              Ya OK…. Martin, Can you send me something that says we appraisers are NOW suppose to include “open to below area” as GLA and use Gross building area instead of Gross living area??? Because if that is the case then the appraisal GODS are saying open to below area is worth just as much as actual living area and that is just insane…I think you would agree.

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        • Avatar chris says:

          Here is the website link https://singlefamily.fanniemae.com/media/30266/display

          And just to put it there, here is what Fannie is also saying

          What if comparable sales are measured differently?

          GLA for properties in local MLS systems and assessor records may not be ANSI-compliant. The appraiser may not know what method an MLS listing or assessor used to calculate the GLA. Through research and their knowledge of the local market, appraisers determine if the GLA provided through alternate sources should be adjusted. The adjustment process does not change the requirement to report subject GLA to the ANSI standard.

          Is there an exception process?

          If the appraiser is unable to adhere to the ANSI Standard, the appraiser will provide the code “GXX001 –” in the Additional Features field on the appraisal form and must explain why compliance was not possible. For example, berm homes with their entire square footage below grade would be eligible for an exception. The appraiser must provide justification for an exception, lenders are responsible for confirming the appraiser provided an adequate explanation. Fannie Mae will monitor for inappropriate use of exceptions (i.e., using methods other than the ANSI standard for homes that have typical above grade
          square footage).

          We are to code our reports when we do not follow ANSI and they will be watching….

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          • Avatar David J Desjardins says:

            No, I am not an appraiser who includes open space area. I do measure this open space area and do not include it in the GLA. I also do not include areas for Capes which do not have adequate head room nor basement areas in above grade GLA as many Brokers do. It is only common sense NOT to include these areas as additional GLA.

            No, I have not been completing reports improperly in terms of GLA and for someone to ask that question, maybe you have. My sketch’s show the open areas which are not included in the GLA.

            I’ll compare my hand drawn sketch’s to your Ansi drawings any day. This is just a waste of time and should be a requirement for appraisers, maybe like you, who complete sketch’s improperly which should be picked up by the bank review appraisers but the problem is that many review appraiser’s are not qualified nor understand the process used in the sketch which is easy to do if you are a reliable and competent reviewer.

            My sketch’s have been hand drawn precisely and explain fully what the GLA is. I may be frustrated as I am one which has had no problem arriving at the correct GLA by hand drawing which in my opinion is more accurate and easily understood by individuals who read and understand sketch’s

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            • Perhaps you should read a little more and you would know how to do it correctly. READ ANSI 1996 Standard from the beginning.

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            • Avatar Chris says:

              Are talking to me ? Or just agreeing that open to below area are not Gla? Sounds to me like you’ve been doing it right. I’m not sure. We have always deducted open the blow areas, and capes would at least 5 ft of standing height, and include the areas underneath the stairs. I actually in fact do not agree to measuring to the inch, nobody is that perfect. But if they want us to measure to the inch, who are we to argue with the appraisal gods, who have rereading our forms, increased our workload tenfold, standardized to reports so to computers can read them and find fraud easier with the c ratings. As far as hand drawing your sketches, I mean come on really? Not sure what program you use but drawing your sketches is a little outdated don’t you think since we’ve been able to use computers for more than 20 years now. And the further expand on this crazy conversation we’ve been having for 2 weeks now, I think there is a movement in this country to oppose all changes whether they be medical political philosophical, liberal and appraisal. I just don’t get it?

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        • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

          Martin Cahn,

          Have you ever read the book Property Inspection – An Appraiser’s Guide , John A. Simpson, MAI

          Published by The Appraisal Institute

          Reviewed by several MAI, SRA, RM menbers. Prefaced by the then President of The AI.

          ISBN: 0-922154-36-8

          Page 48 – Calculation of Gross Living Area

          1. “Measure the length of all first floor walls.”

          —– This is where I think some get confused. The question arises, should one measure inside or out. As you have noted we are supposed to measure outside. The problem is that organizations such as FNMA, etc. are not teaching organizations and they are speaking in highly generalized terms when they say measure outside. Sort of like “how does one play guitar” FNMA’s answer might be to ‘ strum the strings’. True but there is quite a bit more to it than that. For that one should seek an education, often an ongoing education.

          Back to the book.

          2. “If the home has more than one level, determine the size of each above grade floor”

          — Notice the use of the word “floor”. ‘Determine size of floor.’ is what is being taught here.

          3 – 6 simply teach how to handle the basement, garage, porch, decks, etc..

          Now he goes on to create headings for “Difficulties in calculating Gross Living Area”. There are not a lot of difficulties in measuring GBA – Gross Building Area but in GLA he devotes specific instruction. He notes several issues one may encounter and provides instruction.

          One in particular is as follows…

          “Partial Floors. When the above ground floors are partial floors, the appraiser should determine the gross living area by measuring from the ground floor. This is done by measuring the length of the first floor walls that parallel those on the second floor.” — he then goes on about not using percentages, etc.. and ends with this…. “Many split level homes have partial second floors which approximate 50% of the ground floor level.”

          So it is clear as glass that The Appraisal Institute acknowledges that partial floors such as those with open areas to below need to be handled not simply by exterior measurements but typically and most easily by looking at the first floor walls and determining how they align to the upper level walls such that the area open can be removed.

          He also mentions in one paragraph that FNMA guidelines do not require interior measurements. However he goes on to say that often porches, varied walls from the outside can be seen to align with interior walls such that one can determine open spaces, etc.. He goes on to state that electronic devices are handy for interior measurements. all that in the same paragraph.

          All that disputes the exterior only GBA reporting. It acknowledges what FNMA states and then teaches how to make a credible and reasonably accurate GLA sketch and/or floor plan.

          Chris is not wrong. Nor are the rest of us that try to report a correct GLA.

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        • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

          Martin Cahn,
          Have you ever read the book Property Inspection – An Appraiser’s Guide , John A. Simpson, MAI
          Published by The Appraisal Institute
          Reviewed by several MAI, SRA, RM menbers. Prefaced by the then President of The AI.

          ISBN: 0-922154-36-8
          Page 48 – Calculation of Gross Living Area

          1. “Measure the length of all first floor walls.”
          —– This is where I think some get confused. The question arises, should one measure inside or out. As you have noted we are supposed to measure outside. The problem is that organizations such as FNMA, etc. are not teaching organizations and they are speaking in highly generalized terms when they say measure outside. Sort of like “how does one play guitar” FNMA’s answer might be to ‘ strum the strings’. True but there is quite a bit more to it than that. For that one should seek an education, often an ongoing education.

          Back to the book.

          2. “If the home has more than one level, determine the size of each above grade floor”
          — Notice the use of the word “floor”. ‘Determine size of floor.’ is what is being taught here.

          3 – 6 simply teach how to handle the basement, garage, porch, decks, etc..
          Now he goes on to create headings for “Difficulties in calculating Gross Living Area”. There are not a lot of difficulties in measuring GBA – Gross Building Area but in GLA he devotes specific instruction. He notes several issues one may encounter and provides instruction.

          One in particular is as follows…
          “Partial Floors. When the above ground floors are partial floors, the appraiser should determine the gross living area by measuring from the ground floor. This is done by measuring the length of the first floor walls that parallel those on the second floor.” — he then goes on about not using percentages, etc.. and ends with this…. “Many split level homes have partial second floors which approximate 50% of the ground floor level.”

          So it is clear as glass that The Appraisal Institute acknowledges that partial floors such as those with open areas to below need to be handled not simply by exterior measurements but typically and most easily by looking at the first floor walls and determining how they align to the upper level walls such that the area open can be removed.

          He also mentions in one paragraph that FNMA guidelines do not require interior measurements. However he goes on to say that often porches, varied walls from the outside can be seen to align with interior walls such that one can determine open spaces, etc.. He goes on to state that electronic devices are handy for interior measurements. all that in the same paragraph.
          All that disputes the exterior only GBA reporting. It acknowledges what FNMA states and then teaches how to make a credible and reasonably accurate GLA sketch and/or floor plan.

          Chris is not wrong. Nor are the rest of us that try to report a correct GLA.

          Appraisal Institute – Using Residential Appraisal Report Forms ISBN: 0-922154-85-6
          Mark R. Rattermann, MAI, SRA

          Page 59 “for most lenders, openings to the upper floors that expose the floor below cannot be included in the GLA for the second or third floors, with the exception of the staircases.
          Pretty clear there too. Don’t include open areas.

          But wait, there’s more…. Let’s see what the Employee relocation council has to say.

          The Relocation Appraisal Guide 2010 –
          Page 22 figure 6. A floor plan with a two story foyer is provided.

          “The contribution to Gross Living Area ( GLA ) of any open two-story area should be calculated on the basis of floor area only. Therefore, open floor areas must be deducted from the GLA calculation.

          They go on to restate the concept and do actual calculations such that there can be no doubt in anyone’s mind that the open areas -must- be removed.

          Soooo…… yeah, anyone not removing open areas from 2nd and 3rd stories has been doing it wrong.

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          • Avatar Chris says:

            Sorry Tom, you weren’t talking to me. Lol but thank you for your support and what I’ve been trying to say.

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            • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

              @ Chris… no I am on your side and it’s clear there are appraisers here that simply are not going to accept the years of education that has been available to them.

              I will say this though. I think FNMA is screwing up in choosing such a strict standard. The reason being is that some courses teach that if you deviate –at all — then you can not state you applied the ANSI standard.

              As David D notes above he can draw a sketch by hand, not specifically to ANSI and it will be “appraisal accurate” IOW, You, he, I, and several other people that have posted here could measure a very complicated dwelling with many open areas, basements, questionable land grades touching the building, etc… and we are all going to be very very close to each other. So close that there will be no value issue.

              However if you then toss in a true strict ANSI person and a GBA person, then you could start to get results all over the map.

              A system is good but ANSI maybe -too good- for practical appraising. I mean ANSI states that if a 60′ wall has 3″ below grade fro say 24″ then that whole area is now basement. That’s just impractical.

              It sounds like to me FNMA needs to first get a pamphlet named “How To Measure GLA” I think that would solve 95% of their “trust” issues.

              But yeah, I totally get what you are saying. So does this guy…..

              https://www.workingre.com/ansi-ill-tell-you-what-you-can-do-with-this-ansi-stuff/

              Also — sorry about double posts. When I try to edit, all formatting gets lost then the forum will double post for some reason.

              I’ll bet the insurance companies love this thread.

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              • Avatar chris says:

                No worries about double posts. I reply on my cell phone most of the time, In this little tiny window, corrections to voice typing are insane to do.

                Anyway, I am saddened by the uproar about using a standard of measuring, its long over due in my opinion. Hell, We have had the American Standards on almost everything for the past 100+ years. And now on appraiser measuring.

                I am not thrilled about measuring to the inch, the program wont allow that small of value. But Wintotal may update their programming, if they haven’t already. So I will do the best I can, We all know sometime the sketch doesn’t close, especially on a contemporary and other varying home designs for varying reasons. We all do the best we can and yes we all should be within a few sqft to each other unless the appraiser has some dyslexia….it happens to the best of us and even more to the rookies. Measuring a house in the rain or sub freezing temps blows, we make mistakes, but we are smart enough to catch those mistakes during the preparation of our reports.

                Frankly, I am amazed some appraisers have been including GLA that is not there….I find it ludicrous and very unprofessional and to even try to justify this practice “because that’s how the builder does it and the realtors count below grade and they call small height finished attic as GLA, I mean come on. I have seen so many inaccurate reports when an appraiser needs to make a deal he includes a small finished attic as a bedroom or an enclosed porch or part of the basement as GLA and additional bedrooms, then supplies unlike comps with no adjustments. Basically over appraising to make the deal and not lose a client. So I am glad appraisers will be all placed on the same page, so to speak. And will be held responsible for their negligence in reporting GLA. It is a stain on all of us. Just another scream by a user of an appraisal screaming appraisers don’t know what they are doing. Which I know is a fact because I still talk to reviewer from FHA and other reviewers I know. They tell me half the appraisers out there have no idea of what they are doing. It is sad. We had to move to C rating because of this. The fraud was insane with appraisers trying to get their clients A paper funding instead of renovation or construction loans.

                I ask what happens to these appraisers and I am told they get a smack on the wrist, I ask why, i am told the same answer all the time “because there are so few appraisers these days.” I just shake my head. Sad.

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                • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

                  Total Sketch
                  Tools — Preferences — Grid —- snap to Grid increments — drop list 0.1
                  ————————– Line Unit Measurements — Decimal Feet
                  ————————— Decimal Precision — drop list 1
                  ————————— Area Unit of Measure — Drop list Square Feet
                  ————————— Auto close area snapping — drop list 0.1

                  Re: All the other…. I don’t get it either. Well I do get one thing…. FNMA and the software companies have tried to turn appraising into an accounting procedure. Unfortunately the buying and selling residential real estate is anything but that.

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                  • Avatar chris says:

                    Yes Sir !!! I have changed those on occasion, when I had to, I have done many many strange properties over 30 years. I would guess that the GSE’s and others are tired of having 1 report saying a GLA and see other reports with a huge difference in GLA. Thank you for showing everyone how to change their settings….You are a good man !

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  71. Ok, so you two guys don’t want to listen to the original 1996 ANSI standard of HOW TO MEASURE A HOME, POSTED ABOVE. YOU also don’t want to listen to the acritical posted above from the AI. Here it is again direct from the Appraisal of Real Estate 12th Addition. “GLA” Total area of finished area above grade residential space; Calculated by measuring the outside perimeter of the structure and includes only finished, habitable above grade living space. Page 226 Table 10.1!!!!! I appraise multi-Million-dollar homes. Most have very expensive 20 Ft + ceilings made of the highest end materials, wood craftmanship & design and you don’t think that should be included. By your logic, you wouldn’t count half of the roofs, some made of tile, some made of metal, brass etc. You can’t walk on them, you say you don’t live on them, if you’re not measuring the entire exterior then you’re not accounting for all of these items. By your logic, the roof area over the open area is not given any value. UNTIL NOW, IT’S ALWAYS BEEN THAT APPRAISER MEASURE THE ENTIRE PERIMETER…. READ THE ORIGINAL ANSI STANDARD I HAVE POSTED ABOVE, THIS WAS AGREED ON BY ALL MAJOR PLAYERS BACK IN 1996.

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    • Avatar chris says:

      “and includes only finished, habitable above grade living space”…..I don’t know how many people can float in the air…LOL, once again, its not gross building area they are looking for, its Gross living area… No floor, No GLA…..not that hard to understand….Open to below area are design adjustments. you keep beating a dead horse. What is the hardest thing for man to admit, is that he is wrong.

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    • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

      It’s not “you two guys”. It’s a nation full of appraisers.

      “if you’re not measuring the entire exterior then you’re not accounting for all of these items.”

      You are confused by some means. We –do– measure the entire exterior. As Chris told you many posts above. The roof, the trim work, they details…. They are all quality and design issues. They should be compared to like items.

      The result in doing so…. you will have a subject and comparables that simply have a higher $/SqFt price. Nothing goes left out, or not accounted for.

      By the way…. the first book I noted above was published by the AI in 1997.

      “UNTIL NOW, IT’S ALWAYS BEEN THAT APPRAISER MEASURE THE ENTIRE PERIMETER…. ”

      Yes, that’s why we all do it.

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      • Avatar Chris says:

        Thomas you were 100% correct, and with a higher price square foot that would reflect the amenity of having a large two-story open family room, no matter what the finishing is on the interior walls and ceiling.

        I am starting to believe that some appraisers in some market areas are relying on price per square foot to render their opinions of value.

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    • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

      Martin,

      Check this link. Read the first and and third sections… Living Area … Open Spaces.

      Note the word “Floor”
      http://www.exton.biz/ansi_voluntary_standard_z7651996.htm — yet another part of teh nation that recognized decades ago what is excluded in GLA.

      Also Google, Bing, whatever the phrase Habitable Living Space and note that no matter what is included or excluded the terms Live, sleep, eat, cook, are the basis. Now in a two story foyer you can sit on the first floor and read a book or otherwise live there. Greet visitors, hang your coat on a stand, etc.. Now go directly up to the 2nd floor and you can’t do any of that. You can’t –live– in that air space.

      Gross “Living” Area.

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    • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

      Martin,

      You keep going back to ANSI 1996 as a standard. Then you have said that now in 2021 things have changed regarding GLA.

      I can’t find a 1996 version of ANSI but I do have 2003, 2013, and 2021. I will quote them below. Notice with regard to “FLOORS” there is no change.

      2003
      “Finished Area
      An enclosed area in a house that is suitable for year round use, embodying walls, floors, and ceilings that are similar to the rest of the house.”

      2013
      They did not include a definitions page but on page 15 Figure 6 they show a 2 story foyer and it clearly instructs you to exclude it.

      2021
      “2.3 Finished Area
      An enclosed area in a house that is suitable for year-round use based upon its geographic region, embodying walls, floors, and ceilings that are similar to the rest of the house.”

      Notice 2021 is nearly identical to 2003 and in 2013 it was graphically explained.

      I can only find a pdf of a course taught regarding the 1996 ANSI standard and in that course it was taught to remove those same areas.

      Regardless of what was done in 1996… I have shown you three published sources that teach not include those areas you include. I have linked to other appraisers, teachers, shop owners, and blog posts by appraisers across the nation. And now I have presented you with the actual quotes from ANSI.

      ANSI specifically notes — comma “floors” comma — Two story elevations do not have floors on the upper levels.

      No floor, no GLA. It’s really that simple. All your other concerns are quality, design, etc. Not GLA and ANSI has not changed that concept. the only thing they changed was some wording the staircase situation. Not on open spaces.

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      • You can’t find it because you don’t want to be proven wrong LOL. So here it is again. Pay close attention to the last paragraph, 2nd sentence ( The ANSI Standard for Measuring Houses

        In April, 1996 the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) adopted a standard for measuring
        single-family residential buildings. American National Standard Z765-1996 was developed through a
        process of consensus among a wide variety of participants.
        These included the American Institute of Architects, the Appraisal Foundation, the Building Owners
        and Managers Association, the Manufactured Housing Institute, the National Association of Realtors,
        Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, HUD and others.

        The ANSI standards are not law, only a voluntary guide, and are subject to periodic review and
        revision. But anyone using these standards must apply them as a whole, and not just pick out the
        parts they like or agree with. The standards are intended for both attached and detached single
        family residences, but not for apartments or multi-family residences.

        The ANSI standards base floor area calculations on the exterior dimensions of the building at each
        floor level and include all interior walls and voids. For attached units, the outside dimension is
        the center line of the common walls. Internal room dimensions aren’t used in this system of
        measuring.

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        • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

          Can you link me to the PDF. You are not using quote marks so I don’t know which part is you speaking and what is actually published ANSI. Or as it looks, it may be someone’s over view of ANSI in layman’s terms.

          At any rate look at the 2003 version. That is 19 years. You have been appraising for 23 years. So you have been doing it wrong most of your career per ANSI. Not that have to use ANSI.

          Here, read this guys post from 2007. Look at his credentials.
          https://www.millersamuel.com/chip-shots-accurately-calculating-gross-living-area/

          He appraises NY and CT

          The Internet is just full of highly qualified appraisers that have posted pages regarding not measuring open areas on 2nd levels. It’s everywhere. All across the country.

          I’m not sure why you choose to ignore the changes and trends of time. Maybe you also simply rely on the first publication of USPAP and call it done. That’s your business though.

          What you posted above does not sound like an ANSI document but rather someone else giving a layman’s over view. I’ll keep trying to find an actual copy.

          Do you have any links to actual appraisal instruction that instructs appraisers to simply use GBA rather than GLA.

          I have posted several from AI, ERC, that instruct appraisers to remove open areas. It has nothing to do with me being wrong.

          Maybe I am mis-understanding you. Maybe you are saying that in 1996 you understood that all homes are supposed to measured by GBA. Then when ANSI changed as early as 2003 for certain to remove open areas that you thought this was wrong and still do so you did not and/or will not adopt that method. I have no problem with that. It’s your choice. It’s not what the vast majority of appraisers do but it’s your deal if that’s how you want it.

          I can’t find any credible source that publishes instructions so as to measure by above ground GBA = GLA and that’s basically what you are doing.

          Here is ANSI 2013 Just go to page 15 and look at the sketch and it’s note to remove the two story foyer.

          https://birminghamappraisalblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/ansi-measuring-standards-2013.pdf

          So are you saying that is wrong? That’s the actual ANSI doc. Is it right or wrong?

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          • OMG Look it up ANSI Z765-1996, But I guess if you don’t know how to measure a home, I can understand that you don’t know how to use the internet. One last thought for all you Brainiacs, Why do you think Fannie/Freddie List it on the appraisal forms as GLA Because it stands for GROSS LIVING AREA. Not GROSS NET LIVING AREA, NOT SUBTRACT OPEN FLOOR AREA, BUT GROSS LIVING AREA>>>>>GLA<-GLA-GLA-GLA!!!!

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            • Avatar Thomas Baldwin says:

              I’ll take that as a no. You won’t post a link to the actual document. As well you won’t acknowledge any current versions of ANSI nor answer a simple question after I post you link that would take you 60 seconds to peruse and form an opinion on.

              Your point of view has devolved to semantics which further diminishes any ground you had to stand on, however shaky it has always been.

              You have no facts, no support, only insults.

              Dude you are the one that brought up ANSI as your support. ANSI tells you to remove the open areas and has for most of if not all of your career.

              When I search for ANSI Z765 1996 I get links to the updated versions OR in one case a document that teaches how to understand the “ANSI Z765”

              That document is here….
              https://manualzz.com/doc/26732762/understanding-ansi-z765-standards-for-single-family

              On page 10 it clearly states…

              “The next example contains open floor area to the floor below. The stairs do not completely fill the stairwell. In this bird’s eye view, the stairwell is white . It is evident that the treads do not completely fill the well. The open area must be subtracted from the second level area computation.”

              I have attempted to post a snip from the ANSI Z765 – 2013. It is rather clear as to what one should do. You are right about one thing though. The GLA is a “net” of the GBA.

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  72. Avatar Chris says:

    To all of you appraisers who are so up in arms about using a standardized measuring system, I am reading these comments and laughing, if you don’t adhere to the standard, and you put that code in your appraisal, and the appraisal Gods see that that you’re not following the standard, you’re going to lose every client you have, because they’re going to simply ask you what is wrong with you ? Don’t you want to do our appraisal work anymore? And you’re going to sit there and tell people who could care less about you and the moral ground you’re standing on because you don’t want to upset realtors and builders.

    If any appraiser said that to me they would never get another job. So good luck to all you, stand up for your morals, cut your own throats, make yourself look stupid. Because that is what our industry thinks of us, and they have good reason.

    I can hear it now, what do you mean the appraiser didn’t use ANSi ? The appraiser says ANSI is stupid and it’s violating their freedoms of having a choice of how to report the actual gross living area. The other guy says… Is that really what the appraiser said? The other guy says yeah. And the other guy, who could care less about you says….Don’t ever call them again….

    Time to start measuring houses people. get over it, I think most of you have been stealing the assessor’s sketches for most of your career.

    And some of you cannot get it in your heads that you’ve been reporting gross building areas instead of gross living area. Which is appraisal 101.

    1
  73. Avatar Tom Bonne says:

    I will now use one of the three bottom lines in the 1004 grid to add back the GLA that Fannie is making us omit with their use of ANSI standards. I can play their game : > ) What they taketh away on one line, I’ll giveth back on another. Have to figure out what to call that line yet. Maybe just “Additional living area”, and then a comment in the addendum as to the rationale for having to do that.

    1
    • Avatar Raymond says:

      I guess that’s a way to address the issue, but why play their game? just curious.

      1
    • Avatar chris says:

      So what you are saying is you are going to add imaginary GLA and make adjustments, because you still want to use Gross Building Area, instead of making a design/appeal adjustment? Will you also do that to the comps that have open areas? LOL Wait till your lenders see that….LOL…..Get ready to lose your clients.

      2
  74. Avatar Doug Kues says:

    Seems like all the fuss from Fannie (including UAD & checking all reports) is focused on “consistency” (from one source to another; from one report to another; etc). That being the case, I would NEVER report two different sizes, but will seriously draft a full and total disclaimer from accuracy or consistency with public record; MLS information; assessor maps; GIS sources and so on….. unless or until they (each and every one of them) provide written and verifiable confirmation that each source used precise ANSI standards, within 1/10 of an inch, after being properly trained to do so. That should just about cover it.

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  75. Avatar Kenneth Smith says:

    There are a lot of comments and they are somewhat confusing. Is there a short on-line course that will help clear up some questions that I have? But not from the appraisal foundation.

    1
    • Avatar Tom Baldwin says:

      What questions do you have?

      1
      • Avatar Tom Baldwin says:

        Just got another set of plans. These are drawn by Builders FirstSource Area 5 – DC Market

        Clearly cut out the two story are that overlooks the 15 x 17 family room.

        Builders FirstSource is a full service supply and design operation. There DC Area is MD and VA

        The builder builds in VA, NC, SC, GA

        So that’s 5 States total that the designers, draftsman, review engineers, material suppliers, etc, all cut out open to below areas.

        I had a little trouble reading some of the figures but the plans VS me are as follows

        THEM ———– ME
        1461 ————- 1456 First Floor
        988 ———– 992 Second Floor
        390 ———– 393 Garage

        ====================
        The open to below was not subtle at ~ 255 Sq.Ft.

        I honestly can’t recall when I’ve seen plans that do not cut those areas out of Square Footage.

        1
        • Avatar don says:

          Spend a little time aligning the figures before pasting this into your report, as the basis for your (THE APPRAISERS) basis of opinion of value.

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          • Avatar Tom Baldwin says:

            ???? You lost me. I posted this to show those that claim other professionals such as builder’s plans don’t remove “open to below” areas to be incorrect. Builders, Draftsmen, etc., do remove those those areas.

            I still have to measure the actual dwelling.

            Regardless I’m pretty sure FNMA is not concerned about a 4 – 5 Sq. ft. difference per floor. FNMA is concerned about that 255 Sq. Ft. being reported in the same manner by all appraisers. Which is to not include it in the GLA.

            1
            • Avatar don says:

              The appraisers JOB is whatever he says it is in the engagement contract, His courtesy’s may be more, like explanations, sketches, drawings, or all and more of the above. Plus defending logical complaints

              2
  76. Avatar Katthleen Morell says:

    This is just ridiculous – up there with the category ratings… I think alot of us that have been in this business for far too many years may take this a just another sign to think of another way to make a living.

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  77. Baggins Baggins says:

    What a mess. I wrote a 5 page letter to FNMA today asking them to include far more exception allowances and to completely redo their FAQ. I also asked for whomever pushed this to be fired and audited.

    FNMA does not have the authority or know how to rewrite this wheel. They’ll need to enact this policy from a federal level and force every assessor in the country to adopt this first, otherwise it will never work.

    A CO appraisal group zoom meeting CE on ANSI. Don’t get your hopes up, no CE credits for you!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgFfVUgNY18
    “We’ll just use the exception, turn it in, and see what happens, how lenders respond.” Yep, that’s my plan. Fannie will supposedly be monitoring the volume of exception use. If this was just as simple as complying it would not be this big of a deal. Bi and Tri levels are prolific in CO. They’ll need to recognize this standard simply will not work in rough terrain mountain and hill areas where partially below ground is common. Also; “Are realtors being trained on this method? The answer is no.” And no, I will not be soliciting ANSI measurement standards to measure for realtors because; “Fannie is the only one requiring ANSI standards, VA is not, FHA is not, local boards are not.” “If fannie gets only exceptions than I have a feeling it’s not going to work.” “FNMA thinks this change will drive adoption across the valuation industry.” We’ve heard of high hopes but dang, talk about over reach. Many appraisers are not in agreement and there was interesting commentary there is already calls for this proposal to be tabled.

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  78. Avatar Kevin S. says:

    Just made the time to thumb through a downloaded Ansi book a colleague decided to pay for. Figure 5 depicts a 2 story house fully above grade in front and rising terrain to about lets say 2 feet above floor level in the rear. Not blocking windows or anything absurd. Per guidelines as if 4/01 (yeah great day for this foolish release!) the entire 1st level is NOT GLA – but by the same standards any 1 foot area beneath a slab construction 2 story house’s staircase is GLA! Well done Fannie, just brilliant! PS. I cannot wait to make – lets go with $80K s/f adjustment for a minimally below grade bi-level versus an above grade comp then put it all back in a finished basement versus slab construction adjustment just so I can comment on the absurdity of these requirements.

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      In the video link I posted above, appraisers were having a conversation about how could one have a basement larger than the agla area, as per many appraisers whom have already adopted ANSI, that all goes to the basement line. Apparently ignoring or brushing off the obvious cost basis differences when it comes to adjustment volume. Others stated we’ll need three different gla lines to account for this nonsense. Per the FNMA ANSI FAQ, the newly coined non basement basement area should have all of it’s room counts attributable to the qualifiable agla line, yet actual gla should be scooted to the basement line or a line item adjustment (Individual free entry line items for unique adjustments are something the new updated FNMA forms appear to omit, convenient). Imagine a 800 sq ft upper level with 7 rooms, and the 1,600 sq ft basement level with only 3 rooms.

      I suggest you write the FNMA people and voice your objections before this policy becomes solidified. The hard truth of the matter appears to be that ANSI representatives used insider connections they already had established at FNMA to push yet another proprietary special interest engagement through. The ANSI group had already carved out special lower lending rates and other terms through for companies whom coordinated with the ANSI groups for profit interests. ANSI is not just measurement focus, it is a consortium of special interest engagements through a broad range of construction, material supply, and lending engagement focus.

      https://singlefamily.fanniemae.com/appraiser-contact-us-form

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      • Avatar Doug Kues says:

        Well, as we get down to the wire on the ANSI standards mandatory requirements I am reminded that we appraisers are also responsible for accuracy of site size and the resulting adjustments to reconcile site size differences between subject and comparable.

        Well, I can also tell the industry and all the players that I have never personally measured a site for an appraisal report, and that I have never been able to verify within a 1/10th of a foot per dimension or 1 foot overall, and that without exception we have 3-4 sources reporting site size in my market area and I have never (that’s a “never”) seen all sources match. If the legal description shows all measurements (not common unless, say, 50×100) even then the assessor records; the GIS maps; the MLS rarely all match the site dimensions, and the site dimensions on our assessor maps matching even the secured tax rolls is generally the exception rather than the rule. So, if I cannot confirm and verify site size with accuracy, and I certainly am not going to accept liability for any such accuracy, it seems rather logical that the disclaimers I have used for 30 years on site size issues better work for improvement size discrepancies as well. We shall see, but I would submit that if licenses are going to be sanctioned or revoked over this ANSI standard then we ALL better be looking elsewhere for work and just let Zillow be relied upon as the best available information source. A primary rule in appraisal is consistency all right, but punishment for the lack thereof when existing sources that have been considered reliable for decades are substantially less than ideal citing violation of industry standards is probably not a viable solution.

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      • Avatar Doug Kues says:

        To me, a recently self identified novice having only appraised for 30 years, the inherent issue here is what we are retained to do in the first place.

        Since the inception, my job has been to take my market supported opinion of value and report it to my client in a manner that they can understand and that will lead them to the same conclusion that I reached, and they pay me a fee that is agreed upon in advance before I have ever seen the property, its quality, its condition, its features, or what size it might be. I have never been retained to make determinations of legality, permitted use, compliance with any and all codes, or specifically to accurately report how a water heater is installed and whether or not it complies with local standards or manufacturers guidelines for installation. (Note that simply saying that tankless in demand super Rinnai unit doesn’t have to be double strapped surely doesn’t cover “proper” installation). Similarly, that little round thing on the ceiling, that we cannot even tell if is smoke, CO, or a combination thereof, not matter what it is or whether or not it works has somehow become our responsibility and should we remain in the loop if the property burns down…. that thing better have been functional and properly installed if we are to stay out of the courtroom. This stuff is not appraiser related, exceeds most all appraiser expertise, and may actually reflect an impact on value of, say, under $100. Hardly critical to value or marketability, but all of a sudden, through uninvited Scope Creep, pulls yet another scapegoat into the loop of liability.

        Honestly, years ago I could probably tell you the likely selling price of a home in my market area within $1000, for free, in minutes. Those days are long gone, all my old sources have been deemed unreliable by the industry I represent, and the engineering degree that I do not have has evolved into a frightening reality. Can’t quit, because they have that hook in me for everything done in at least the last five years, and I need the revenue stream to prepare for the litigation that should never have happened. Misrepresentation is one thing; entrapment for reasons that have little or nothing to do with value or marketability is quite another.

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  79. Avatar John Daley says:

    Hello Fellow appraisers. I am very thankful this blog happened. I was one of the first commentors. The Blog said to be respectful in your comments and be respectful of others. I can say this much… I appreciate everyone’s comments, Good, Bad, or Indifferent. It doesn’t matter. That is what makes us better. I think we all agree that real estate is …(put your own words in here)…interesting. Appraisers, developers, builders, bankers, investors, clients, customers, homeowners, etc, are a part of it. The best thing is the relationships we build with all of us. That is why I’ve enjoyed doing appraisals. So other side. There is a NEW Desk Top Form, The NEW (old) ANSI requirements, and also the UPDATED 1004 Form. Really!! I am moving on to another opportunity. If a competent person would write these three things down on piece of paper and then read the requirements of each, I would have to believe at least ONE question would come up about the competency of all of them. Its been fun appraising, but moving on.

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  80. Avatar Doug Kues says:

    Well, yunno, like we all need to read and understand client guidelines with each and every assignment whether or not it might be full of non-industry standards. This entire blog should be mandatory reading (and understanding) for each and every FNMA, USPAP, FREDDIE, and AMC employee before this becomes mandatory. It’s certainly not the appraiser problem, but when mandatory….the way all the other players measure becomes our liability if we are to stand behind adjustments for square footage and room count differences. It isn’t just the measurements WE make, it’s the inherent “confirm and verify” that becomes null and void on April 1st. Interesting how many lower level GLAs just became basements and our ability to determine “comparable” sales with similar features just became extinct.

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  81. Avatar PJTMC says:

    I can tell you from first-hand knowledge, VA is not accepting this foolishness as they have seasoned appraiser (for the most part) at the helm, and they run a tight ship. As appraisers, their input has been invaluable to the decision makers in Washington. Hmmm, perhaps that is why they have never experienced the same failures as FNMA & FHA….bingo!

    Proud to say I just declined my first 1004 desk request.

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      ANSI logic check meme.

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      • Avatar Tom B. says:

        That is actually not what Q16 says.

        What Q16 says is “above grade non-GLA” ANSI is very clear as to what is above and below grade.

        What that means is say a ranch 1,000 Sq.Ft. above grade with 8 rooms heated and cooled but the utility room is say 150SqFt. and has a raw concrete floor and no finished walls. That is 150 Sq. Ft. non-GLA.

        You report 8 rooms and 850 Sq. Ft. GLA.

        In your meme that guy is standing in the basement and gets reported on the basement line.

        Also from FNMA.. “While the ANSI standard is not definitive on this point,”

        [cough cough} Say what?!!! ANSI is very clear. They could care less about an appraisal. The standard is cut and dried. Clear as glass as to what’s above and below grade.

        I’m convinced now that FNMA has no clue what they have done and still can’t believe this is not an elaborate April Fools joke.

        I got this from an AMC today.. They indicate ANSI standard requires a statement in the appraisal report.

        Here is their suggestion for the appraiser measured subject.

        “Finished square footage calculations for this house were made based on measured dimensions only and may include unfinished areas, openings in floors not associated with stairs, or openings in floors exceeding the area of associated stairs.”

        That is pretty much as backwards as one could possible get while using the ANSI standard.

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        • Baggins Baggins says:

          Oh boy, appraisers will be unpacking this for some time to come. Personally I’m going to lean on what posters like yourself, whom apparently do understand ANSI, will handle it. Thanks. If the ANSI standard is to be mandated via the selling guide, the ANSI guidelines should be incorporated into the selling guide for all to utilize as necessary. Or is every single user of appraisal reports, reviewer, appraiser, assistant, underwriter, lender, portfolio holder, are they supposed to buy all these digi copies of the same little ebook? Talk about a marketing strategy to sell the same digi item a hundred thousand times without hardly any effort. Should I redo the meme or… Just slapped that together in ten seconds on imgflp.

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  82. Avatar E J Brown says:

    36 days until retirement. I don’t currently do any lender work, So I’m staying on through April for what ever comes my way. 04/30/2022 I’m done !

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  83. Avatar Doug Kues says:

    One of the earlier posts on this blog brought up the point that ANSI measurements, while intended to provide consistency with how we measure, was not designed or intended only for appraisal, or necessarily for appraisal at all. BUT, since the industry is making it mandatory, and since the water seems muddier than ever before and the liability greater than ever before, how are we to handle SITE size and adjustment for differences. My market has four sources for site size…..all once considered reliable sources (secured tax rolls, assessor parcel maps, GIS mapping source, and last but not least, MLS). Almost without exception, these four sources will give me three different answers for the same property. Thus, same would hold true for each and every comparable sale, and the differences are sometimes in 100s of feet or even acres. Keeping my thoughts together we have consistency, accuracy, reliability, and liability, to think about and comply with. How are we to report site size? Oh, yeah, just like we always have. I forgot.

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  84. Avatar Doug Kues says:

    Here’s an example of where ANSI measurement standard are probably best applied. We all want comfort in our decisions, especially when buying shoes.

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      Doug, isn’t that something. Signs, shoes, and now in real estate pretending half of all the state licensed senior assessors in this country are doing it wrong. There is always someone whom in their arrogance and hubris thinks they’re smarter than people with decades of experience. Hey doctor, prescribe this instead. Yo plumber, wrong method. You, window cleaner, missed a spot. Listen here lawyer, that’s not the right course of action, I’ll represent myself instead. Hey assessors, your measurement methods and size reporting for 200 million housing units in the United States of America are incorrect and now must be reported OUR WAY INSTEAD! But this falsification of data presentation rule only applies to appraisers working with fannie, every single other market participant down to the dog and cat can still recognize a garden level as above grade area.

      https://www.mysafetysign.com/ansi-safety-signs

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  85. Avatar Tamer Degirmen says:

    I read a bunch of your blogs… Folks this is a job… If you feel like you need to do more work to achieve this result and it is going to take you longer to measure a house and do the calculations; ask for more money for your services… Its a perfect opportunity to raise your fees…

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      Close, no cigar. The context from most posters here is that of 1099 independent contractors with independent insurance, a high probability of libel accusation and liability which extends beyond insured coverage to personal monies, civil penalties, and in some cases criminal penalties.

      Now with ansi, so when an appraiser purposefully confuses readers of the report and perhaps there is a dispute about value, we’ll be both racist and incompetent.

      Choice to operate in the most competent manner possible, to be flexible as situations may arise, is essential in the independent appraisal position. For those of us whom routinely appraise homes which ansi measurement standards will lead to a false portrayal of homes actual sizing, these illogical mandates paint a target on our backs. No amount of disclosure disclaimer language can write away the fact that the appraiser will go against the grain and materially misreport housing size in an apparently fictitious manner, contrary to everyone else involved; realtor, assessor, online data aggregators, mls systems, buyers, sellers, and builders, and every single other real property market participator except the appraiser. If only it was as simple as complying with a companies policies and directives, from a secured liability free position of employment. We would not be having this conversation in the first place.

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      • Avatar don says:

        Liability is reality. Insurance is limited the awards are not. Your personal net worth could be in jeopardy as well your freedom. Your reports should protect you!

        right on.

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        • Baggins Baggins says:

          Don that is a great comment. One that gives me chills having tracked responsibly for several decades now. The most illuminating set of continuing education classes I ever took went over several cycles where I selected every liability and claims class at several ce outlets.

          Per my posts below, our reports should protect us.

          The pertinent question is protect us from whom?

          The local people whom we deal with? The GSE and portfolio holders? Both?

          So although imposition of an ANSI mandate is much ado about nothing for what appears to be the majority of appraisers in this country, what about entire groups like all of the appraisers in CO where it appears the entirety (or close to it) of all our realty agents, assessors, all recognize garden level as above grade qualifiable area?

          What’s it going to take for FNMA to include bi’s and tri’s as qualifiable exemption to ANSI process? Do we need to frame a class action lawsuit against Fannie for discriminating against appraisers in our state whom will bear a higher degree of liability over this?

          As I said previously, this uniform standard can be manageable, if everyone else adopts it first. Appraisers are not leaders of their local real estate markets, we follow up other peoples efforts with comprehensible value opinions. As none of these other people recognize garden level as basement, appraisers in Cololorado may be quite literally the only people operating with a different reporting basis. I don’t know the courts system very well here and it would be interesting to hear from other CO appraisers whom do know that. It bears to reason that courts here recognize the local standards as the common guidance and peer standard. Or whatever the court jargon would be for competent operational methods in accordance with local customs.

          Like a light switch, we’ve discovered the source of this confusion. Different market standards in different market locations. We’re not dealing with some mis mash loosely gathered standard here in this state. Garden level is always reported in the above grade line. It’s not every other unit or infrequent, but rather across the board with very few exceptions.

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    • Avatar Seneca says:

      Ignore Baggins, You are correct. I just took a 4hr CE class on ANSI with Hamp Thomas. The only thing that was defined different than what most appraisers are already doing is the half story measurement (7ft/5ft thing). You have to add an addendum that you are using ANSI standard. Hamp said you don’t have to apply ANSI to Drive-bys, Comps or Desktops. And he is in constant contact with Fannie Mae. There might be 2-3 appraisals a year that you have to do some explanations.(Berm house, Waterfront or some other oddball house). ANSI only applies to single family homes and not Condos or Multi-family. There is no increased liability because of ANSI.

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      • Baggins Baggins says:

        O.k. Seneca. Obviously you are in a different state with different housing designs than me. This is the rub on this matter, these mandates will be easy for appraisers in entire states to deal with, while creating headaches for all the appraisers in other states. Like I’ve only ran across a handful of appraisers whom utilize ANSI in CO, the majority of us do not use it. I do not know of a single assessor from CO Springs to FT Collins or from Summit county to Eastern plains whom uses ANSI. Most builders don’t use it around here either.

        How would you handle a bi level? Keep in mind the assessors reporting, MLS listing, all market participants, always always always have the lower garden level as attributable agla, and stairs are not counted twice because it’s a mid level landing area, choice to go up or down, usually a 10×10 if not larger stairs space. How about a tri level where there is no solid information except by personally measuring a home, on the multitudes of different tri level designs where the garden level can be the largest to smallest area of the home? There are a handful of 1.5 stories with ceiling height variants in old town metro but otherwise builders in Colorado turned to bi’s and tri’s prolifically in order to provide more space and more structurally sound building with lower building costs and better energy efficiency just everywhere there are sandy soils, bentonite, exposure to swiftly changing temperatures on a daily basis, and constantly changing water tables. How about a high altitude home built on extreme slope like a 45 degree grade where they built into the mountain on half the home? It’s going to be like rolling the dice, completely different reporting methods based on the specific home type. ANSI is manageable for ranches, 2’s, condo, etc. If you are so lucky for those to be the predominant home types in your region. Even then, you’ll always be overstating your size by counting stairs twice. Counting stairs w/ ansi when the assessor does not and none of your comps will have that extra sizing is a cheap trick to pump up the appraised value $5k or more.

        Fannie used to want ‘to the local market standard’ and for the appraiser to ‘properly qualify data’. What is the point of falsifying size for mandated measurement method compliance, only to have to adjust that back on an individual line item because you know with a very high certainty, none of your comps had their stairs attributed twice. Stairs serve a utilitarian function, they’re only good for stairs. You can put 10 couches in a hundred square feet above, and 10 more couches on a hundred square feet below. You can’t put a single couch on the stairs, because it’s not usable space. Many builders don’t use ansi because it’s disingenuous marketing of their products. I tend to see ansi style space accounting in high density housing, townhomes, where there is so little space to begin with, builders count it twice to pump up the illusion of competing space, even though in the real world that usable space is not present. Now luxury homes with grand stair cases magically have an extra 200 sq ft?

        Good choice on Hamp’s class. He’s got a lot of books on Amazon and I’m planning on taking that class too. I’d rather take something more meaningful since I already know how to deliver a competent sketch ‘to the local market standards’, for ‘credible assignment results’, and ‘adequate qualification of comparable size data’, etc, etc. Throw all those assessors sketches and size records in the trash can I suppose. Have any good advice for conversational responses when every single sales agent, buyer, and seller, becomes confused when the appraiser magically turns half of a bi levels market recognized agla space into a basement but due to sales scarcity has to comp it against 2’s and a tri level, and a bi level? Should I guess on how much to cut the tri down for it’s variable sized garden level? Should I reduce the bi level comp to ansi standard too even though MLS reports it as all gla as agla? How to adjust that bi competently against a 2, when the market recognizes both homes as having equivalent space which drive equivalent price and cost? Asking for a friend.

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        • Avatar Seneca says:

          If you don’t know how to measure a Bi-level, tri-level or how to count stairs then you haven’t read ANSI.

          Why would you throw the county sketch in the trash? It’s is most of the time the only source for sq ft. It’s where you get your basement sq ft for comps.

          For a Bi-level comp.
          MLS list sq ft as 1340sf.
          County shows the foot print as 32×28 bi-level = 896sf for the above grade level.
          Extract out the 896sf from 1340sf = 444 sq ft of finished area in the basement.
          I never counted the lower level in a bi or split level in the GLA. More times than not it would have unfinished area that would go uncounted.

          What is so hard about ANSI. Measure outside dimensions, only include above grade, do the 7ft/5ft thing. YOU NEVER COUNT ANY STAIRS TWICE. As I said, there might be 2-3 houses a year you’ll have to explain.

          It is irrelevant who is or isn’t using ANSI, ANSI only applies to the subject that you inspected.

          When the lawyer ask you how did you come up with sq ft you don’t have to explain your personal opinion of doing it. Now you just hand them the ANSI handbook.

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          • Avatar Tom B says:

            You do count stairs twice. They count for the floor they descend from AND the floor below. Look at the Figure 1 and Figure 2 in the ANSI document. The red dashed line is the finished Sq. Ft.. Notice the stairs are included on floor 1 and 2.

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            • Avatar Chris says:

              When you all measure a basic 2 story square/rectangle on top of a square/rectangle that has NO two story areas, do you actually remove the stairs on the second floor and leave an opening?

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            • Avatar Seneca says:

              That’s because there is a second set of stairs going to the basement, which is counted on the first floor. You bring the stairs up to the level from which they descend.

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              • Avatar Tom Baldwin says:

                That’s only for stairs going to a basement. They get counted on first floor.

                The rest that serve above grade get counted from the floor from which they descend AND the floor below. As Chris just said there is floor under those stairs on the first level.

                So technically it should be stated…. you count the Sq Ft occupied by the stairs from the descend and the Sq.Ft they cover on the floor below.

                The bottom line. If you have 100sf of stairs from first to second floor. That’s 200sf towards GLA.

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  86. Avatar Chris says:

    How can so many get so confused about ANSI? ITs VERY basic!!! I worked for 3 appraisers prior to going off on my own going back to 1995. ALL ued ANSI. I actually thought every appraiser did. Its VERY simple. JUST TAKE OUT 2 STORY AREAS!!!! SIMPLE!!!!!!!!

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  87. Avatar Chris says:

    I dont get the confusion with stairs. When you all measure a basic 2 story square/rectangle on top of a square/rectangle that has NO two story areas, do you actually remove the stairs on the second floor and leave an opening? I would expect the answer to be no so, why would you all suddenly want to do that now? THis is all very simple and VERY basic

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      Actually often yes. Because that’s the method which may have been used by the assessor, and the builder. We often need to use the negative subtract area feature within sketches to account for the excess when drawing the two story, bi or tri level home. Otherwise we’re reporting a home in a way larger than the assessor recognizes the subject, and all the comps. You run into this when you just know you have a matching model comp, your subject is 50-100 sq ft larger, and your sketch reads larger than assessed records by that much too. You know that for an apples to apples comparison, the upper level stairs need removed. If fortunate enough to get an assessors sketch, may reflect this method too. See, the rub again, for appraisers where this activity is not common, they may have a hard time getting their minds around this being a market standard in other locations.

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      • Avatar Tom Baldwin says:

        “You run into this when you just know you have a matching model comp, your subject is 50-100 sq ft larger, and your sketch reads larger than assessed records by that much too. You know that for an apples to apples comparison, the upper level stairs need removed.”

        Now you will just use the opposite thinking. Same value result. Your sketch will be accurate per ANSI. So if you know the comps are missing that area, rather than subtract from your accurate sketch you account for adding the missing area to the comps.

        A simple comment. Assessor nor Realtor included the stairwell fully thus the GLA calculates out 100sf smaller than my subject when in fact they are the same size. Thus no adjustment applied.

        You are just going to have write a catch all addenda. When it comes into play simply reference your addenda example.

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      • Avatar Chris says:

        That is 1000% wrong! How would a person get to the second floor? You would be sketching as if the builder never put stairs in the house. Have you been calling out functional problems too then? Lets say the stairs are there but they are on a chain so you can lift them out of the way if you want, would you still remove them? Have you ever been in a new construction house where it is just framed? If you have you would have seen there is a full floor below the stairs. It only gets covered up when the finishing drywall is added. They actually have to BUILD the stairs onto the first floor therefore it technically is part of the second floor sitting ON the 1st floor. You ACTUALLY take the stairs out of the second floor on a house with NO 2 story area? How have these appraisals been accepted by an underwriter or bank? Show an example of an assessor that takes out stairs. Have you been basing how you measure on how the assessor does? WHY! Who cares if they show something different, simply explain the difference and move on. Whats next we all disagree on 2+2=4? its really that simple

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        • Baggins Baggins says:

          No. The point of the sketch is to determine ‘if the assessment record is generally accurate’. I’m not contracted as an architect to deliver some perfect sketch under some specific condition. Or at least I never used to be until this silly ansi mandate came forward. If the builder and assessor used ansi I would have no problem using it too. When they do not use this method, but the appraiser does, that’s when ‘we got problems’.
          I’m there for market valuation services. By identifying if the assessor included stairs or not, I’m able to often come very close or match the assessors reported size records. That’s more professional than showing up like a know it all and saying the assessor and the agents whom relied on the assessment records for their list and purchase offers were wrong.
          And oh boy, there is going to be major problems when a buyers agent gets an appraisal back recognizing half of a bi level as not having attributable agla. They’re going to punch the sales price in a calculator divided by the newly half sized agla amount the appraiser has in his report, they’ll read a ppsf figure twice the size of what was indicated on the listing. Fingers will point. Tempers will flare. Heads will roll. Calamity will ensue.
          The stairs is such a minor issue, sometimes it needs cut out, sometimes it does not. If I have a choice I do not materially misrepresent a houses size or claim to be of a higher authority than the assessor, which the assessment departments are also staffed with dozens of appraisers, and have had access to building plans, and have also coordinated with the building planning department and the initial construction company to come about their ‘assessors stated size figures’. I don’t have those resources, I’m just the 1099 appraiser showing up for ‘market valuation analysis’.
          I have a longer post coming up too which illustrates much more challenging situations ANSI will bring then this silly to count the stairs or not to count the stairs argument, with a few situational examples (similar to my objection letter to fannie). Don’t get distracted by the minutia. But just technically, pretend there are no handrails. If you step over that stair cavity what’s going to keep you from falling? How is that usable space and any different than an open cavity you otherwise would not count? And how does one use the ground level area where the stairs begin? Are you going to lay down on your belly and snake around, pretending that’s usable space? Unless that’s your thing but most times that area is partitioned off by drywall, or there is something like a litterbox there.
          The argument goes either direction depending on your point of view. That’s why many valid measurement methods do not include the stairs cavity area, within the livable space count. It would not make sense to remove that count from the ground level, as there is no cavity there, so we count it ground level but omit it for higher levels. The tit for tat will never end on the stairs argument, best to discover and recognize ‘the local standard applied.’
          Flexibility is key to competent accurate reporting which is not misleading. Remember the goal always is ‘credible assignment results’. You’re there to be an expert on market valuation analysis and comparable selection, actual reliable apples to apples specific example grid valuation analysis and discovering or providing reliable estimates on market value reactions, cost approach factors, etc, etc. larger issues than the question of counting stairs. If they want an architect, they’ll have to hire one and those people charge a lot more than an appraiser does, with their own specialty license to boot. The interview above with the fannie guy claims that by pretending we’re architects and can hold to this one industry standard, this relieves us of some liability concerns. Hang tough for my next post, almost done. I’ll demonstrate quite the opposite. Thank you.

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          • Avatar Tom Baldwin says:

            “No. The point of the sketch is to determine ‘if the assessment record is generally accurate’. I’m not contracted as an architect to deliver some perfect sketch under some specific condition.”

            That is totally wrong thinking. Suppose your assessor gets hacked. All records destroyed. That’s how you should be approaching it.

            You are the pro. The assessor and agents are dealing with mass data from varied sources that are ‘close enough’ to do a mass valuation.

            I have never seen an MLS that didn’t say, you the consumer of the data need to verify it.

            You are the one person that is absolutely get it as right as you can and do i the same way each time. Will you make a mistake at some point…. probably, but it will easy to figure out, correct, and move on.

            No one is looking for perfection they want a consistent method so that if you come to my market or I go to yours, we will measure a house the same way. Sure we might be a few feet different but we will not be 300sf different.

            If the data in your market sucks so badly that you can’t gather from a few sources and determine where the similarities and differences are then yeah, maybe your specific situation is so complicated that ANSI is out of the picture.

            However, as I have mentioned several times…. if you know what the specific differences are, which you seem to, then you simply or in a potentially complicated manner, relate them to your subject.

            If you have no idea what the differences are… let’s say a home on 50 acres. Hidden from sight, 50 years old with a brand new addition. The assessor says 4000sq ft with an unknown amount in basement. MLS just states 7000sf and one photo.

            Well you can’t even use that as a comp. But a 2000sf Split Foyer in most any MLS or Zillow or whatever.. You can figure out from your visual, the MLS, the assessor, Google Earth, etc….. you can pretty well figure whats’ going on. If you can’t just tell your not sure what’s up and will not adjust for it. Let the value fall where it may.

            You are fighting an impossible battle.

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            • Avatar Chris says:

              I have been writing appraisal reports for 30 years, and my market area, you have to measure the house, we’ve been using ANSI for 30 years, I came from an office with 25 assistance and 25 appraisers, they were handling 500 to 700 appraisals a week, the two owners had more headaches and you could possibly imagine, when a GLA that you measured doesn’t match the assessor’s GLA you make a statement, and then you use disclaimers in your addendum that you relied on the comparables as what the assessor said, you do the best you can and just explain it, after you appraisers are like little cry babies, I don’t get it, and I I appraise complex properties every day of my life and I do not get it that you guys are crying that you’re worried about assessors, realtors and loan officers and Zillow and all these other people when we are the professionals. I don’t want to sound cliche but suck it up. Buttercup.

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          • Avatar Chris says:

            You absolutely do not remove the stairs from the second floor. Apparently you have never seen a house being built. The first floor area is complete with sub floor before they can BUILD the stairs. It just so happens that the stairs they BUILD ON TOP OF THE FIRST FLOOR fit right into the opening the stairs are built up to in order for people to get to the second floor so technically that is a floor but it just on an angle. I now see why banks and Fannie dont trust appraisers.
            Nobody is expecting the appraiser to be an architect, just show EXACTLY what is there. If a wall is 10′ 5 & 3/4″ long, the appraiser should have that wall as 10 5 & 3/4 long. A 10 year old can do that! How many milliseconds does rounding save? Basically all ANSI is saying is Take out 2 story areas form the 2nd floor. It really is that simple.

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            • Baggins Baggins says:

              ANSI and stairs is not even half the problem. It’s when ANSI says I have to cut out half the qualifiable market recognized size of something like a subject bi level. Then I’ll comp that against another bi level. Applying ansi to my subject but not the other. I’ll start out the gate needing substantial adjusts, crawling net gross, rising review alerts, underwriting questions, and none of the other market participants will have a clue as they have not bought the ansi book, will not use the ansi method themselves. There will not be any additional verification sources. It’s going to be a problem, guaranteed.
              I get your guys position on the stairs. It’s not rocket science. Yes, I’ve seen many many homes being built and know all about construction. And no, we’re not dealing w/ hypotheticals as if there is no assessment record when in fact there is an assessment record. Is it or is it not a skill to reverse engineer what method the assessor used and building department credited. Is it or is it not preferable to have the most similar accurate comparability possible. Is it or is it not better to have fewer adjustments rather than more when you’re basically dealing with model matches.
              You know, there is two sides of this coin so stop playing so tough about the question of to count stairs or not or who is the expert and who is not. Stay flexible, bend like the reed in the wind. What are you guys in love with government mandates or something? You’re all about it. What’s wrong with leaving the choice to the individual based on local market standards?

              edit thank you

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              • Avatar Tom Baldwin says:

                ” It’s when ANSI says I have to cut out half the qualifiable market recognized size of something like a subject bi level. Then I’ll comp that against another bi level. Applying ansi to my subject but not the other.”

                You are waaaaaay over thinking this. I’ve been doing what you just described for 38 years and have NEVER had a call back on GLA reporting.
                Look… you have SF that 1000 up 1000 down.

                You have 3 comps
                Assessor SF = 2000
                Realtor SF = 2000 but 1000 is in basement
                Realtor SF = 1000 plus a finished basement

                You report everything as 1000 up and 1000 in basement AND tell everyone why you did it.

                Why would you care what the agent thinks?

                IF in the scenario above all 4 of those homes were built on dead flat lots totally above grade but the agents and / or assessor said they had basements… too bad…

                You report it as 2000 up 0 down.

                If the picture I attach shows up. Our assessor reports that building as having a basement. On the back side is a garage. It’s all flat as a pancake.
                I have never reported that as a basement and don’t know anyone else that has either. You could drive you car up the apron and through the walls, you would come out the front door and down the steps.

                You are supposed to be telling it like it is. Otherwise they don’t really need you. They could get assessment data and listen to “Realtor speak” and come to their own conclusion.

                Otherwise you are just giving yet another “singular unknown method” of doing things.

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            • Baggins Baggins says:

              This is understood. Perhaps argue with the 10,000 realtors, hundreds upon hundreds of assessors and assistants, building planning office persons, permitting, architects, floor plan designers, etc.
              These are situational examples to illustrate such a uniform standard is not broadly implemented across the industry as a whole. Clearly this is cart before the horse to presume the small body of poorly represented appraisers whom struggle to just stay in business are the right people to force implementation of sweeping industry changes at large, by way of government mandates by force and threat of duress. Real classy fnma, real classy.
              Take of it what you will. All of the conversations and points relayed regarding are appreciated. Thank you.
              FNMA is going to need to ‘outsource the measurement service’ to actual architects, not tech companies forming software coding from what they read on the internet, whom then sub out to any tom rob or harry sub sub sub contractor with a certain cell phone and app software.
              In fact, that’s interesting, how does the architectural and drafting industries handle this? Does ANSI influence those working groups? Will have to check on that later. And where is the competition? Isn’t it a monopoly when one company controls the whole show? Either we support diversity and free market economies where peoples voluntary adherence to ‘best and most effective methods’, or we do not. Nothing good comes from the forcing others, or else in the long term. Government mandates, had enough of those for sure. Instant fail on principal alone.

              (may be too long of a sequence, my post did not place under the intended post. This post meant to answer the post from Chris.)
              https://appraisersblogs.com/ansi-measuring-standard-required-by-fannie-mae-in-2022/#comment-33808

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          • Avatar don says:

            The point of the sketch is to illustrate the efficiency of the floor plan and to point out YOUR interpretations for a basis of comparison. The problems with the in-acracy’s of the computer-generated sizes is that that only ONE side of the house is measured ” The appraiser did not square up his drawing. Did you see the crooked patterned linoleum flooring the Kit & Fam room?”, the converted Garage- bedroom or the elaborate outdoor summer kitchen.

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            • Baggins Baggins says:

              “The point of the sketch is to illustrate the efficiency of the floor plan and to point out YOUR interpretations for a basis of comparison.”

              Well, with certain housing. Functional adjustments are impossible to prove except for unique circumstances, like the only bath is in a bed area or in another ancillary building, etc.

              Space is space. It’s quite often adaptable. It’s either there or it’s not. The floorplan is understood by photos and the sketch does not need to be all that detailed.

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        • Avatar Chris says:

          Chris, give it up buddy, I think the problem is that these appraisers are in the Midwest and the southern states and they have been spoiled their entire careers relying on assessor data and assessor sketches to the point they have don’t have to measure the houses. I say this cuz I did reviews for 5 years, there are a bunch of wussies, I won’t get into politics, but they are a bunch of wussies, cry babies.

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          • Baggins Baggins says:

            Well, you’ve definitely installed a sense of professional confidence in me at least. Please, continue on with your invaluable insight. What does it take to be a pro like you Chris?

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            • Avatar Tom Baldwin says:

              Baggins, check these links.

              This is for a Colorado split foyer. First thing I hit on…

              assessor record…
              https://www.countyoffice.org/property-records-search/?q=106+Hoedown+Circle%2C+Fountain%2C+CO%2C+USA#structure

              online listing
              https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/106-Hoedown-Cir-Fountain-CO-80817/13553600_zpid/?

              The listing has a sketch included.

              Level 1 = 0 Sq Ft — excluded 847 Sf
              Level 2 = 1079 sf ft — excluded 471 Sf
              Total GLA = 1079 sf — total scanned = 2397sf

              Ok, so total scanned 2397- ( 1079+847) = 471 garage and I assume that unfin. laundry room in photos as assessor has garage at 22 x 20 = 440

              Now let’s look at the assessor numbers

              1st floor = 1026
              lower level = 901
              total = 1927 —- notice the listing at 1079 + 847 = 1926
              Garage = 440

              The numbers are simply not that much different. Also you can see an unfinished room in the photos. It looks like both assessor and floor plan are counting stairs.

              The listing reports 1079sf GLA above grade which is exactly what ANSI tells you to do.

              I’ve never been to Colorado, never looked for a property in Colorado and never been to Colorado assessor site. and I found that in 5 minutes. I could certainly compare that to my subject with ease.

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  88. Avatar E J says:

    Who cares, buyers don’t. Do they negotiate down the sale price because 2nd floor has a little bit of 6′ ceilings or do you get a tax break ?
    Shoulda built my house with 6′ 10″ ceilings, then I wouldn’t even own a house !

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  89. Avatar Chris says:

    From what I am seeing here, and all other posts everywhere about this, is that there really has to be a standard method of measurement by appraisers. anyone getting an appraisal should expect to see the same gla on any other appraisal after (within a few sf) the original report. If I was not an appraiser and the initial report said my house is 2000 sf, then refinance later and see 1800 or 2300 and completely different sketches I would think the appraisers are all just making things up.

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      Especially when the reporting is materially different than what their buyers agent, the sellers agent, and the assessor posts as the ‘size of the home… Think twice because people put more faith and have longer term continued contacts with these people than the appraiser, whom they only see once.

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  90. Baggins Baggins says:

    Tom, I get that. Thank you. That’s a great example you posted, yes photo shows up. Obviously, you need to get away from assessors reporting. What about the opposite direction when assessor is recognized by market and can be considered reliable and accurate, but Fannie now dictates you can no longer recognize or report to the local market standard. How about this consideration? Remember, basement adjusts for actual basements usually have a lower adjustment basis, being less valuable in the market than qualifying agla space. Think bi level when you have to comp against a ranch, just one example. You know, I’m all about reduced liability exposure. Sounds like you have experience with the hypothetical I’ll describe below. I welcome your insight and advice on the matter. This response originally written for scenica.

    “It is irrelevant who is or isn’t using ANSI, ANSI only applies to the subject that you inspected.” Me; Yes, I understand that point clearly. How’s that going to play out in the adjustment grid and review process both human and automated review when for example, my subject is an 1,800 sq ft bi level… And due to needing recent sales in our red hot market, and having only 3 recent and local sales to select from, let’s just for a perfect example say I have 3 perfect size match comps. An 1800 sq ft bi level. An 1800 sq ft tri level. And an 1800 sq ft 2 story on slab no basement. Those are my only comps, I have to use them, there is nothing else. They all sold $400k, which is something that actually happens here in the midwest.

    Do you use the EO Reviewer Tool in Alamode or the equivalent of that in other programs? You know, the internal review tool which uses sophisticated data mapping to help an appraiser identify inconsistent or anomalous reporting. I’m pretty good at keeping my internal alerts to 12 instances or less on 1004,s and like 30 on condo form. Almost all of my alerts are for; The check box is marked y/n, but a comment is present. Silly nothing pointless alerts which underwriters dismiss. I always write something in there to reiterate I’ve checked the box I intended to check, it’s too easy to check the wrong box so I accept review alerts for ‘written content appearing’ even though the actual selling guide says you only need to comment if you’ve checked the other box. It’s silly. As condo has more questions, I get higher review alerts on that form. But if I were to hold to ANSI for subject but not comps, my alerts are going to fly upward substantially, I would not be surprised if this tacked on 20-30 or more serious auto review alert instances. Allow me to demonstrate.

    Scenario 1. I report the subject honestly ‘to the local market standard’. Oh that’s easy. No sq ft adjust required. My subject and my comps, all at 1,800 agla sq ft. No type adjust required. Only minor adjusts for quality factors, location, specific age, outbuildings, yada yada. My net gross is nice and low. Now this is a very important point, pay attention here; As net gross is an indicator of similarity or dissimilarity, the net gross is reading accurately with a nice low number. I know, and reviewers know, and the CU automated analytic systems know; this appraiser has picked some great comps! High degree of similarity. That’s why net/gross is low, I hit the mark and made competent comps selections. That’s how it’s supposed to work.

    Scenario 2. I manipulate my size of subject reporting to something contrary to widely accepted market standards by all other market participants, altering to ANSI size measurement compliance, in a manner none of the other market participants recognize, and they’re likely not to understand either. I cut half the lower level (because it’s a bi level partially below grade) cut that off! Now it’s reading like a ranch w/ a basement but in fact is still a bi level which competes laterally with any one of my 3 selected comparables.

    And now I’ve got to make a choice, estimate an ANSI reporting method for my comps, or to not estimate an ANSI reporting method for my comps. Per advisement above; ANSI only applies to my subject. We’ll roll with that but even if we were to estimate ANSI for comps, similar problems would emerge. So now with ANSI only applied to my subject, I’ve got an 800 agla subject w/ an 800 gla basement, running across the appraisal grid adjustment lines against all other 1,800 agla sq ft units w/ no basements. My subject now has a basement, curious, it does not read that way on any other data source. I have now failed to ‘validate my ”qualified data” with secondary sources’, a glaring and glowing point of liability exposure. But I’ll excuse that with disclose disclaim ANSI language, after all, Fannie demanded it, no exceptions, it was not my choice or my doing.

    That’s manageable in it’s own simple way in this perfect scenario but gets mighty complicated if any of my comps actually have a real basement or like if I had a tri level subject w/ a partial basement. Because then how to apply the same adjustment basis for all ‘market recognized agla areas’, and also apply the lower adjustment basis for actual basements which typically track with half the adjust amount of legitimate agla areas, also with lower room count adjust amounts.

    In this perfect scenario where neither my subject nor comps has a basement, I can just use the same adjustment basis for agla as basement, since none have a basement. (I’ve just earned a new CU alert; appraisers bas adjust outside the peer model) Let’s say $50 psf applied adjust. So now 800 agla x $50 psf adjust = $40,000 adjustment which runs across the board. To every single comp, since they’re all 1,800 agla sq ft. (just earned more alerts, crawling net/gross) Let’s just say it’s a $400,000 sale and all comps sold at $400,000 too. That’s a 25% net and a 25% gross adjustment indicator, before I even get to actual quality or item difference adjustments. (another alert for excess sized adjustments in relation to price)

    Right off the bat using ANSI on a bi level subject vs a bi level comp which I have not applied ANSI too, even though they’re perfect model matches, my net gross now reads with stark dissimilarity. Oh bummer, this just went from a CU risk score of 1, up to something like a 2 or even 3 or 4. The underwriter is going to have to use the manual exception process. Here comes the clarification stips. So much for efficiency. Things were going smoothly here, until the appraiser showed up.

    Now my own tools that I rely on don’t work. Because how am I to know that I may be missing the mark or over or under adjusting? I review the changes in net gross through the entire adjustment process. It’s how an appraiser can put their finger on the pulse and know if they’re doing it right or wrong. It’s how you can identify mismatching benchmarks to value in volatile markets. It’s how you know you may have done a great job and really honed in on accurate market reactions. The net gross line is everything, I suggest you always have your internal software set to show those percentage numbers in your prints as that is a software option. All market participants recognize this as an 1800 sq ft house, and it’s comped against model matches, so why is net gross 25%+… They’ll be scratching their heads. You failed to bracket your subject’s agla sizing (another review alert.) And your subject is half the size of your comparables (another review alert). It’s going to happen.

    Next we can detail another scenario like a tri w/ basement comped against matching model tri w/ bas, w/o bas, a bi level, and a 2 w/ partial basement, and let’s toss a ranch w/ fin bas in there. Or how about a ranch w/ unfin bas vs a bi level. They’ll read the same on the grid even though the bi level has twice the livable space and tracks a much higher price and value. It’s going to get a lot more complicated with even more review alerts and we’ll have to place the bi levels non basement non agla area into it’s own line item. We’ll be manually punching in calculations on a calculator like I don’t even have supportive software. Or maybe I’ll wing it and guess at tri levels lower level and apply ANSI to subject and all comps, but then how to manage the 2 story w/ bas vs ranch comps if that’s all I have… It’s a mind bender.

    At a minimum, Fannie should negotiate with ANSI and make the guidance book free of charge or incorporate that into the selling guide. And epifany; I may have just identified with FNMA’s CU modeling may have issues. They’re trying to interpret two entirely different basis of measurements. ANSI appraisers provide one number, appraisers whom hold to local reporting standards apply another. They’d have been better off with a more meaningful CU data input to prohibit ANSI from being applied ‘when the market does not recognize ANSI standards’, rather than mandated it. I don’t need ANSI to defend my work. The streamlined adjusted value indicators and weighted consideration of best matching comps with lower net/gross provide all the defense I need. Toss in the screen grab of very low internal review alert scores (which the CU system certainly also reads similarly), I’m golden. Or you know, paint a target on my back and act like a know it all, report contrary to everyone else.

    Unlike some of the other appraisers here, whom may earn themselves reputations as being difficult to deal with, I prefer a team spirited approach and it’s taken me pretty far with a good local reputation. I end up turning down realty work as I enjoy the steady rythm of mortgage lending assignments. I pick up the phone and land a new client if I need one. One can be a non advocate while still being on the same page as everyone else and engaging in a team spirited approach. What, now I have to educate everyone else on ANSI when literally nobody except a rare appraiser uses it. Silly, counter productive. In the midwest bi’s and tri’s always have their partially below grade areas (garden levels), as finished areas. Builders furnished them that way and people never remove the finish. Due to sandy soils, extreme climate, bentonite swelling clays, variable sloping, and energy efficiency reasons, there is a constant mix of varied design tri levels, bi levels, ranches w/ or w/o basements, 2’s w/ or w/o basements. In high country we have a-typicals like 2’s built into the side of mountains and A frames with like 140′ downward slope to deflect crushing snow loads. The look like gnome homes out of a childrens book. We have what is probably a million to two million single family housing units of the variety bi or tri level types in CO. There is not a burm home in site, and 1.5’s are ultra rare only in metro, there is not a cape cod within 300 miles if not more. My suggestion that FNMA update the ANSI FAQ to include bi levels and tri levels as valid reasons to use the GXX001 exception code stands, and for good reason.

    I’ve been at this 20 years too, it is appreciated when people focus on the issue rather than throwing weight around, barking dictates and demands at everyone. We’ve had enough government mandates to last a lifetime and trusting experts is not all it’s cracked up to be. Local customs matter more than what some bureaucrat on the hill thinks. The act of forcing a mandate also violates philosophical and cultural traditional expectations for fair independent dealings and due process. Government today; bolster ‘appraiser independence’ with blanket mandates and deny opt outs under threat of force. I will remind the FNMA people; “Good ideas do not require force.” Until they can get a uniform standard pushed through on the federal level where all assessors adopt it first, more harm than good and simply not going to work everywhere, even though ANSI may indeed work well some places. Thank you.

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    • Avatar Tom Baldwin says:

      In your scenario where you have bi-Level, a tri-Level, a bi-level , a two story on slab. All 1800sf. the market says hey we honestly don’t care. Different strokes for different folks.

      Subject = 900 up / 900 down
      Tri-Level = 1200 up / 600 down
      Bi-level = 900 up / 900 down
      2Sty = 1800 up / 0 down

      So since you know the market does not care where the finished living area is the $ adj is the same up or down.

      In your case the Bi-Level is at $400K and maybe an adjustment for a deck or porch. But comps 1 and 3 up and down adjustments should put them at $400K as well.

      I wouldn’t worry about what kind of errors are going to be generated. Just put a disclaimer that high adjustments are due to ANSI reporting and lack of similar comps due to market conditions.

      You really don’t have a choice starting tomorrow what you do with the subject. That being said and even with very few comps at least try to align them to the subject in some manner that also reflects the market. Like let’s say your tri-level above is really above grade. So put it all above. You still have that one bi-Level that matches your subject and everyone can see the other styles are bringing the same $$ for same overall Sq. Ft. of living space.

      It’s FNMAs problem what adjustments look like if you follow their rules. I had a really nice ranch a few years ago. It was built to have the lower level as a major aspect but it turned the first floor to a 2BR home which for comps was unheard of in that neighborhood. But it was walkout basement. So the agent called me up said I had done it wrong and that she had been selling real estate for 40 years.

      I took my subject’s rear photo and put it in photoshop. Drew a line at the grade for the first level. Wrote the word basement under the line, sent it to her and told her maybe she should consider retirement. Never heard another word.

      Yes, I use the EO tool. That will again be FNMAs problem starting tomorrow. %s, bracketing GLA, etc.. My comment will be that issues in these categories are brought about by the ANSI system and specific available comparable data. BUT… I have pretty good data here. I know what has been measured, where it’s located, etc.. So I’ve been dealing with that forever. I really have to have a tough situation and if that happens, hey, you get a lot of those errors. Hopefully I was smart enough to charge more up front so the pages of trying to explain the comparisons is worth it.

      “Or how about a ranch w/ unfin bas vs a bi level. They’ll read the same on the grid even though the bi level has twice the livable space and tracks a much higher price and value.”

      A ranch with unfinished basement will not read the same on grid as a Bi-Level with finished up and down. If I’m reading you correctly. the Bi_Level will show finished rooms in basement. The ranch will not.

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      • Baggins Baggins says:

        Thank you Tom. I’ve got an acceptable handle on it, while continue to be in disbelief fnma would do something this counter productive to efficiency, consistency in their modeling base, and go against the past 20 years of detailed technical development to map out automated review to provide meaningful user and reviewer alerts for cross correlated data points within the official form.

        We’re going to need a 3rd gla line to use for adjustments which works within our software in the updated forms for the ‘formerly agla, non basement, non qualifiable agla’ lines, aka the newly coined basement non basement. When I adjust an agla area for 50, my basement is likely 10/12 or flexible but never the same as agla, same for room adjusts, basement rooms adjust lower. Net gross is going to fly, manual review is going to be more complicated, reviewers will have a nightmare of a time figuring out variable adjustments applied unless the appraiser notes every last detail for every last applied adjustment on an individual comp to comp basis. I’ll probably work the form and sketch normally, scan those as image attachments, then put those after the ansi compliant sketch and grid. Especially in a super historical hot market like CO w/ 20+ offers for each of the decreasing amount of listings, agents are in a huff. I read the CO realtor group update today, one agent was talking about +$250k over list on his luxury class listing. Other routine units are moving +$50k routinely. Agents are struggling so are market participants. Materially misrepresenting a homes size to something absolutely not recognized as the market standard to anyone except appraisers is just plain short sighted and counter productive to credible assignment results. Courts have ruled the intended user and client definition does not necessarily limit the duty of the appraiser to provide meaningful reliable data to any and all users or readers of the appraisal report down the line. Limitations on FNMA approved liability protection language, appraisers can’t write their way out of liability or scrutiny with disclaimers any more than an agent can write their deal out of compliance with GSE standards just because the buyer and seller might happen to agree.

        Someone might want to inform Apex about the subtracting stairs thing. Attached.

        Imagine running bloodwork results this way or accounting… Well, it probably happens in accounting on the government level. Ha!

        Was really happy to see the NAR letter which asked for this to be slow walked and put on hold until other entities could have time to adopt this too. Going to write my local assessors and point them to this thread. And how will that work for assessors, whom have a fixed taxation method based on market accepted size factors? Call your home this, tax it as that. This is not how intelligent design is supposed to operate.

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  91. Avatar Seneca says:

    Quiz , When you do your ANSI addendum for tomorrow remember ANSI doesn’t use GLA it uses the phrase “_____________________”.

    Aws. Finished Square Footage.

    Quiz. Have you bought and read the copy of ANSI?

    Aws. You have until tomorrow to get one.

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      But wait, there’s more! Nope, not yet, have a few old ones around somewhere.

      This is cosmic cobra on steroids.

      The financial incentive to sell more books will undoubtedly mean a continual stream of ANSI sketch standardized measurement changes. With the digi book, this could happen even more frequently than uspap. It’s a cash grab and someone is going to get paid handsomely at the appraisers expense. What’s new. Thanks for the info and conversation.

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    • Avatar Tom B says:

      “Finished Square Footage”

      Just a heads up… that is the exact phrase AMCs are searching for in the “ADDITIONAL COMMENTS” section of the FNMA URAR form. So save yourself a headache and be sure those three words appear there.

      Finished square footage calculated per ANSI Z765-2021.

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  92. Avatar Doug Kues says:

    I think we all agree, and profess these days, we are not contractors, pest control inspections, roofing specialists, or anything beyond a professional appraiser forming an opinion of value based on the best information we have at our disposal during the regular course of business. We have been forcibly morphed into a little bit of all of those professions, and are generally liable for what we say, and that’s precisely why the Scope of Work has grown exponentially over the years. So, I’m OK with ANSI. What I am not OK with is the degree of accuracy required. Take a 3000 square foot home and mandate that an appraiser be accurate within 1/10th of a foot (or maybe 1/12th of a foot) per wall and within 1 square foot accuracy overall, and I say that’s about the equivalent of mandating that the pest control expert report the actual number of termites accurately and mandating that the electrician report exactly how much the voltage fluctuates under load and how warm the wiring gets during winter months, or require a licensed roofer to be liable for EXACTLY how long that roof will last without leaking. It’s basically insane, has little or nothing to do with value or marketability, exceeds virtually all appraiser expertise, and is less likely than getting the same tax answer each time we call the IRS with a question. It’s the degree of accuracy required, and the liability therefor, that makes this entire requirement (not the process, the “accuracy requirement”) an obvious ploy to force appraisers into retirement or to modify report disclaimers to the extent that no one will be able to reasonably rely on any report; E&O insurance to add yet another exclusion; and preclude just about everyone from being able to follow the appraisal report and wind up understanding how the appraiser reached a final opinion of value. My money is on the variable results being six different improvement sizes from six different appraisers, with a seventh variation by the professional measurement specialist expert witness at trial.

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    • Avatar PJTMC says:

      I totally agree with your assessment. In particular, the retirement aspect. I have been a believer from the very beginning that it is not about ANCI or 7′ ceilings heights; it is about eliminating the appraiser all together. Everyone is caught up in the particulars when the issue here is very simple, elimination of the appraiser. They have tried for years with no success, so they have reinvented how to approach this using our own “tools of the trade” (so to speak) to drive us out. There is a conspiracy taking place in that they are hoping to get appraisers to leave voluntarily and those that don’t will find themselves in front of disciplinary agencies, thrown off the FNMA approved list or worse, in court. It is as clear as the nose on my face, they are creating an intolerable, toxic work environment and, as I said, appraiser elimination is the end game. Look it, everyone knows all appraisers are all talk and no action. This is especially true of the ones plying the politicians with PAC money. That is our history, there is no unity, and why we get walked on. If the appraisers could only take all the energy and effort spent on complaining and pontificating and channel it to organizing together, we might actually be able to fight this. But, alas, I have no faith in that happening. There certainly needs to be a federal investigation to find out who the players are and expose what is really going on. I have come to the conclusion that complaining does nothing more than it has always done, nothing. The facts some appraisers are complaining and pontificating about their greatness tells me they have already lied down and are going to take it. It doesn’t have to be that way if we are ALL willing to make it our mission to expose what is happening. I am certainly not a conspiracy theorist however if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck it’s a dick. One gentleman sent in a great observation to this or one of the other blogs about the money trail that is, if accurate, factual. Good place to start.

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      • Avatar Chris says:

        It’s called American standards, and American standards been around for more than 100 years, they want all of us on the same playing field, so when one appraiser measures a house, the other appraiser should measure it similarly and then their computer models will work better and when more appraisers start doing desktops, the people that go inside of these properties to measure for us will be measuring using the same standard.

        I came from an office with 25 appraisers and 25 assistants. We were all using ANSI 30 years ago. It’s not that big of a deal.

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        • Avatar don says:

          Imagin! a new government agency developing standards wherein the old assessors, the old FNMA, the old Ginny Mae, the old assessor’s offices all across the USA were to arrive an acceptable standard. WHO would pay for it, (US)? And what would be acceptable To: architect’s Builders, banks, taxing agencies, etc.?
          Measure it, explain it, remark on the others and make your value based on your measurements. Just like always.

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  93. Baggins Baggins says:

    Tom, you’ve been really helpful, thank you for the time.

    Look closer at your zillow link though, click the facts and features, then click more facts and features / Finished area above ground: 1,927. That’s the market dude, that can comp against a 2 story or tri of equivalent size. The adjustment grid would be a mess to scoot a portion to bas. Let’s try another where I have mls access. You picked one far South where MLS does not share.

    https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/5134-Zinnia-Ct-Arvada-CO-80002/13731791_zpid/

    Hot dog that’s nice. / facts and features / Finished area above ground: 1,869 / Check that against the assessor, review the MLS listing.

    https://propertysearch.jeffco.us/propertyrecordssearch/address/property/details/pe4OJTp_B2SyPwLed_hYhzvgodQRleTuu4CHShQfB8A1
    That’s nice, the assessor provides upper and garden level. This looks new for this assessor, there is a ‘GL finish’ line, which shows 906 sq ft. Must be trying to be ansi compliant in their own way or something, garden level finish.
    Let’s check MLS; confirmed, agent entry: Above Grade Finished Area:1,869

    And that brings up an important point for the metrics realty agents use, that puppy has an across the board psf indicator:
    PSF Total: $334
    PSF Finished: $334PSF
    Above Grade: $334
    Change what above grade means, throw a wrench in that realtors plans. What kind of realtor is this, whom does not respect ANSI standards and pretends that basement is above grade area? Obviously he’s doing it wrong. No opt outs! Didn’t he read the FNMA ANSI guidance? He better hope for a VA or all cash purchaser or he could get straight toasted and roasted by the appraiser. I’m going to show him if I get that order, let him know how it’s supposed to be done. What do they think they can comp against a 2 story or something, half that home is not qualified ‘Finished Square Footage’. Ignore what you’re seeing, all that finished area, the ANSI definition is the only thing that matters. ANSI & FNMA make the rules for the market not these upstart agents.

    Let’s check something in Arapahoe.
    https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/19442-E-Brunswick-Dr-Aurora-CO-80013/13088086_zpid/
    facts and features / Total interior livable area: 1,240 sqft Finished area above ground: 1,240
    Oh no! Zillow is doing it wrong too!
    Going to need to fill out their listing error little pop up thing and get this data corrected. Obviously zillow does not know what they’re doing and should consult with ANSI immediately, like yesterday.

    check the county / All right we’re back in Arapahoe, they offer silly sketches at least.
    https://parcelsearch.arapahoegov.com/PPINum.aspx?PPINum=1975-34-1-51-002
    Wait for the page to load then click the little tiny sketch link
    That’s easy to read sketching, love it, not fnma compliant but at least it’s there.
    Assessor must be trying to be ansi compliant or something, but may be confusing some terms here. They do however provide garden level break down so that’s helpful. Have total building area as 856 sq ft. suppose that means the footprint of the home. What gives with three different 1st floor entries? Whatever, no time for that. / Let’s check the MLS / Oh good lord here we go again! Are my eyes deceiving me!? There is no below grade square foot figure in the blow grade line! And do you know how helpful it is for me to know with certainty that below grade line is reserved only for real legitimate basements. This is going to screw up my reliable market research methods adopted over two decades if agents start getting ansi compliant and putting garden levels in there and/or splitting up above grade entries into two portions. I’m not going to be able to make any sense of the data or will have to form some new custom research.
    On to the full MLS listing. OMG, another agent doing it wrong.
    Building Area Total (SqFt Total):1,240
    Living Area (SqFt Finished):1,240
    Above Grade Finished Area:1,240
    PSF Total:$363
    PSF Finished:$363
    PSF Above Grade:$363
    These agents with their uniform approaches and comprehensive finished price metrics. We’re going to show them how to do it right, because we’re appraisers using ANSI. These people simply do not know how to adopt uniform standards, they must be told and shown under threat of duress and force of the government if that’s what it takes. They’re going to get on board or we’ll stop them from working with FNMA. Their idea of uniform standards is simply antiquated and no longer relevant, because we said so and that’s the end of that argument.

    Let’s try something in Adams, whom I know does not offer sketches online. My heart is racing, I found another one right away.
    https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/11130-Dahlia-Dr-Thornton-CO-80233/13003583_zpid/
    facts and features / Total structure area: 1,889 Total interior livable area: 1,889 sqft Finished area above ground: 1,889
    I’m going to have to spend a lot of time demanding zillow correct their data. Another incompetent listing NOT COMPLYING with ANSI uniform standards. I’ll have to step in with the big guns on this one. / On to the county record.
    https://gisapp.adcogov.org/quicksearch/doreport.aspx?pid=0172107102001
    Built As: Bi Level
    Year Built: 1977
    Building Type: Residential
    Construction Type: Frame Siding
    Built As SQ Ft: 1885
    Number of Rooms: 7
    Number of Baths: 2.00
    Number of Bedrooms: 4
    Attached Garage SQ Ft: 500
    Detached Garage Square Ft:
    Basement SQ Ft:
    Finished Basement SQ Ft:
    Oh this incompetent set of like a hundred assessors here in Adams county we have. All that talent filling all those desk chairs and not a darn one of them knows how to run ANSI compliant measurements. Note the empty entry for basement lines. Obviously they are doing it plainly wrong. How do these people even have jobs in real estate valuation?
    Let’s check out the MLS on this one too.
    Oh SOB, it’s happening again.
    Building Area Total (SqFt Total):1,889
    Living Area (SqFt Finished):1,889
    Above Grade Finished Area:1,889
    PSF Total:$263
    PSF Finished:$263
    PSF Above Grade:$263
    These agents just don’t understand how it’s supposed to be done. Why haven’t they even bothered to pay $25 for the 15 page ANSI digital ebook already? Aren’t they like in the real estate trades? But really give the realty agent a break, they’re just using auto import tools which links the county and MLS together. Truly we should blame the Adams county assessor for providing this faulty data. I’m going to show them how to measure a home properly and report it accurately under a standardized measurement program. Ignore the fact the data is comprehensive and well qualified in it’s current form. Although what they are doing is already standardized, across the entire state of CO, they’re still doing it wrong. Don’t they understand that because those lower levels are half way below earth that does not meet the definition of qualifiable finished space. I’m going to forward these people the FNMA ANSI FAQ doc and set them straight.

    Local market standards matter and that’s just the way it is. Those builders ANSI has in their back pocket can adapt if they come here, it is not our responsibility to adapt to them. That’s called states rights and federalism. We have our own due process round these parts. Because it’s not just bi’s it’s tri’s too. And 2 stories and ranches w/ and w/o basements intermingled. Trying to scoot half the bi level to the basement line makes the appraiser look incompetent when literally everyone else recognizes this is not basement area. And then it’ creates further complications if I have units with actual basements. Adding a third line for market recognized AGLA, aka ‘finished square footage’ per ANSI guidelines is silly.

    This wordsmithing is confusing. Let’s check the definition of ‘finished’.
    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/finished
    condemned, doomed, or in the process of extinction:

    Oh wait, that’s the adjective. But it describes me pretty well under the ANSI standard trying to provide appraisals on this type of home stock. Here this is better description sought after.
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/finished
    “provided with a finish: having a final treatment or coating on the surface”
    We need to sick ANSI on Merriam-Webster. Obviously we’re having a problem with standardization of the English language itself. You can’t call something ‘finished’ just because there is a final treatment such as flooring, walls, framing, beds, baths, stoves, trim, doors, lights, stairs, windows, curtains, electric, water, adornment, locks, a finished ceiling. We need to qualify finished as only being applicable if it’s above the earth. If it’s below the earth line obviously it’s not qualified ‘finished’. Ignore everything you know and see in these houses and re learn how to do this properly. There is a line, it is at your feet, it’s called the earth. And if any part of the home is below that line, YOU CAN NOT CALL IT ABOVE GRADE ANYMORE!

    Maybe this is me, I’m not perfect. Perhaps I do not understand the meaning of ‘above grade’. Let’s check on that.

    OH CAN OF WORMS! I’ve got conflicting definitions here! Whom is right?
    https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/above-grade
    Above grade means any portion of a building not below grade. (By-law 2013-138, S.11)
    VERSUS:
    https://www.clearcapital.com/resources/glossary-of-terms/above-grade-square-feet/
    “Above Grade Square Feet is the term referring to all living square feet in a home that is above the ground. It does not include basements even if the basement is a finished walkout or daylight basement. Lower level rooms are counted in appraisals and BPOs as below grade square feet, and are usually valued at a lower price per square foot. In BPOs, only above grade square feet is counted in the living square feet.”

    Oh thank the lord, we’ve got Clear Capitol AMC here to give us a proper definition.

    While we’re at it, what is a basement anyways? Can’t trust memory or common sense anymore. In Oceana, words can and do often change meaning for what is best for The Party. Got to keep up, already on the 7th edition.

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/basement#synonyms
    “1 : the part of a building that is wholly or partly below ground level” (Uh oh! I’m sweating bullets now!)
    VERSUS
    https://www.lawinsider.com/search?q=basement
    “Basement – means any area of the building having its floor subgrade (below ground level) on all sides.”

    Oh no…. What does that mean? So much for commonly understood definition as understood by laymen.

    Let’s whip out the M&S Residential Cost Handbook and flip through the glossary.
    Basement. Any room or rooms built partially or wholly below ground level.
    There is no entry for above grade or grade. The entry for Slope only mentions roof pitch. There is an entry for Bi Level.
    Bi Level. A two story residence with a split foyer entrance. The lower level, partially above grade, is partially finished. Typically the finish includes plumbing and electrical rough ins, with some partition wall framing for a recreation room, bedroom, laundry area and bathroom. Other common terms for this type of construction are raised ranch, hi ranch, colonial, and split entry.

    The rabbit hole goes deeper.
    There is no definition for Finish in glossary either, but finish is mentioned in the ‘description’ segments in the various quality sections under RESIDENCE. Let’s just pick the ‘good quality’ tab.
    Interior Finish. Interior walls are taped and painted drywall with some good quality wallpaper or wood paneling. Kitchen and baths have enamel-painted walls and ceilings. An ample amount of cabinetry with natural wood-veneer finish is used in the kitchen, with a large pullman or vanity in the bath areas. Countertops and splash are laminated plastic, ceramic tile or simulated marble. Ceilings are painted drywall. Some small areas, i.e., entries or foyers, may have vaulted or cathedral ceilings. Doors are good quality, hollow core with attractive hardware. Baseboard and casings are hardwood or softwood and have mitered corners. Walk in closets or large sliding door wardrobes. Ample linen and storage closets. Workmanship throughout is of good quality. NOTE: Base interior wall height is 8′ except for excellent quality. For each foot of variation add to or deduct from the base cost only, (etc, etc.)
    There is a reference to two story bi level on pg Good-16, which says ‘apply to above grade floor areas only, see Pg 4.’

    O.k. here we go, single family dated, pg 4. Two story bi level: Two story, bi-level (raised ranch) residences have two levels of living area, but unlike a conventional two story, the lower level, which may be partially below grade, is partially unfinished. (Which is not normally true of bi levels in CO except for a small utility room) A distinguishing characteristic is it’s split foyer entry. Enter the cost table with the square footage of the above grade floor area only. For the lower level use the appropriate cost type and square footage from the basement cost table and add for the amount of finish.
    We’ve also got one for split level w/ a little tri level image: Split-level residences have three levels of finished living area: lower level, intermediate level and upper level. The lower level is immediately below the upper level as in a two story. The intermediate level, adjacent to the other levels, is built on grade approximately 4 feet higher than that of the lower level. Enter the basic residence cost table at the total floor area OF ALL THREE LEVELS.

    That was an interesting exercise. I almost threw the book but held on and kept flipping. (M&S jokes!) What did we learn? There is variance in cost approach method guidance. For bi’s they say half up full half down basement adjustment scale, but for tri’s they say the whole thing up side adjustment scale calculations. Yet there is associated guidance that bas finish area may run roughly equivalent to above grade areas.

    This is conflicting in it’s own right. Then consider how these home types illustrated above have equivalent finish. I mean that first one on Zinnia Ct, that’s high quality finish all around, hard to tell what is where but it looks like most carpeted areas are lower level. I’d run that entire thing on the upper level cost and cut my improved floor allowance in half to compensate or something similar. For tri’s it’s the same approach. For all practical purposes, that’s not a basement.

    Q7. Can appraisers use the exception code to voluntarily opt out of compliance with the ANSI standard? No.
    Q14. The ANSI standard requires any area that is partially or wholly below grade to be counted as basement; what defines ‘partially’ below grade? A floor level is partially or wholly below grade if any portion of its walls is not entirely at or above ground level (Emphasis on ANY PORTION).
    Q16. How should appraisers account for rooms located in above-grade finished areas that do not qualify as GLA under the ANSI standard? While the ANSI standard is not definitive on this point, appraisers should include rooms located in above-grade finished non-GLA areas in the room counts (Total Rooms, Bedrooms, Bath(s)) in the Improvement section and in the Sales Comparison Approach grid of the appraisal report to comply with Uniform Appraisal Dataset requirements.

    (Well hang on a darn hot minute! Why isn’t the UAD altered to account for this new ANSI standard? That’s a lazy developmental method if you ask me.

    So if it’s measurement, not qualifying.

    But if it’s counting rooms, it is qualifying.

    Sure that makes sense. That’s going to be really easy to explain to people and they’re definitely going to have a lot of increased confidence in the appraisers ability to navigate their local market, local assessors, local agents, local participators. They are going to fall in love with my comprehensive methods. So like every single example above. All those rooms, they still qualify for room counting in the 1004 like they always would have before ANSI. But we’re going to cut all their sizes in half or a third off, and we’re going to note those as basement lines or some other line.

    And we’ll run basement line adjusts for size, but there will be no room counts attributable to that size amount… Say what? I’ve never done something so illogical as that but I’d bet you a pepsi that’s’ going to fire up another warning in the EO reviewer. Because how can you have a finished 900 sq ft basement with ZERO attributable room counts? Make it make sense.

    These are called work around methods. When something does not have intelligent design, presents as illogical, the appraisers task is to find ways to describe things logically in a defensible manner. To qualify the data in a comprehensive manner. Rather than appraisers working with what works locally, we’re going to re invent the wheel here and operate contrary to how everyone else local operates. This is going to be a nightmare to navigate when there is actual size difference vs assessors records.

    We’re going to have to go old lady ninny word police and say; ‘That’s not acceptable to call the area as above grade or finished area. You have to call that (per FNMA ANSI FAQ 16.) ‘above-grade finished non-GLA areas’.

    Say what!?!?!? f it’s partially above grade finished, how is it not GLA? I’d better read up on that too.

    Gross Living area:
    “As defined by the Appraisal Institute’s Dictionary of Real Estate 4th Edition: “Gross Living Area (GLA) – The total area of finished, above-grade residential space excluding unheated areas such as porches and balconies; the standard measure for determining the amount of space in residential properties.” Jul 5, 2007

    We’ve got problems. To laugh or cry. I was mad. I’m not mad anymore. Probably going to get mad again though. This is simply not happening. Going to ignore the issue until it goes away on it’s own.$334

    0
    • Avatar Tom B says:

      My friend, Merriam Webster is not needed. ANSI Page 5 item 2.3 defines finished for you. Then Page 6 item 3.6 tells you how to apply it. Two short paragraphs.

      It’s not the Merriam-Webster ANSI standard. It’s the ANSI standard. It doesn’t matter what anyone else is doing that is not in the Appraisal Profession. It took decades before our MLS would allow for agents to report basement Sq Ft.. Now they have the spaces for it and still can’t do it correctly. Luckily most do though but there is no penalty for those that don’t.

      All those examples you provided are what I consider normal everyday stuff. It’s what I have been dealing with for my entire career.

      Agents are always going to apply the standard of “I need to make this house sound like the Taj Mahal”.

      Zillow…. appraisers are not Zillow. Do you know how many times I’ve had people ask if I think Zillow is reliable. I just shake my head and say no because they change with the weather day by day. Zillow uses the Zillow standard

      Assessors – you should be happy they are starting to put sketches in. They are making your life easy. If the numbers are close to the MLS and the visuals align, just use the Assessor figures.

      Don’t look for ANSI definitions anywhere but in the ANSI standard. GLA is above grade. Finished Square Footage can be in many places. Where do you report a Barn or Pool House. You don’t put it in the GLA, you don’t put it in the Basement and Below Grade, you put it on a line at bottom of grid and deal with it. Not an ANSI thing, but certainly you have at some time had to deal with some sort of extra and unusual valuable items that comps did not easily align to.

      As to the unfinished room above grade. I won’t say I have never seen one but some of these new homes often in 55 and over communities will have a fully finished and heated / cooled storage room but they leave the carpet out just to make it easy to store shelving, move things around, etc.. Let’s say it’s 200sf out of 2,500 total GLA. Just report the room, report 2,300. Then go down to bottom of grid and write StgRm and calculate 200sf back in.

      ANSI is simply classifying everything we measure and telling you how to measure it.

      Measure it then…
      Put this stuff in Box A, Put this other stuff in Box B, Put the other things of value that don’t fit A or B in Boxes C, D, E as needed. THEN… simply do your best by your reasoning to match your comp’s features to those Boxes and make adjustments from there.

      Once Elon Musk takes over FNMA we can use the Shiba Inu standard.

      1
  94. Avatar Tom B says:

    Baggins, you are going give yourself a stroke before April 1 is even over.

    Let me be sure I reading you correctly…. you wrote….

    “half that home is not qualified ‘Finished Square Footage’. Ignore what you’re seeing, all that finished area, the ANSI definition is the only thing that matters.”

    No No No No No…… ALL of that home is “Finished Square Footage”

    961 sf Above Grade Room Count Gross Living Area
    906 sf Basement & Finished Rooms Below Grade

    That’s 1867 sf total finished square footage. I might mixed the numbers up but it’s within a couple sq ft. of the assessor and Realtor.

    This is dead simple. ANSI is not telling you that if it’s below grade it is no longer finished square footage. Hell we have basements here that are more expensive than the upper bedroom levels sometimes. You put in a full service bar, a theater room, a wine room, a nice bath, rec room with wainscoting, recessed lighting, etc.. No one is telling you to toss that living space out the window. Just consistently report it on the BELOW GRADE lines of the URAR form.

    Nothing is being taken away, it is simply being classified in a specific manner. After it is classified by ANSI the URAR form has a place for it. If you have a house that has some extra stuff you feel ANSI sort of cheated out, just report it on the bottom lines of the grid.

    1
    • Baggins Baggins says:

      Yes, fully understood. And I get that you’re an experienced pro who is entirely credible. But you don’t appraise in Colorado. Sometimes I’ll have to comp a bi vs a 2 story with a finished basement (so then the 2 has that third fin bas level and needs adjusted down and that basement adjust tracks half the adjustment value of comparative agla areas.) Sometimes I’ll have to comp a bi against a 2 story with an unfinished basement. (so then the basement adjusts at an even lower amount than it would for finished bas areas.) All garden and ‘above grade’ (which agla is a garden level in CO), all garden levels adjusts equivalent to a 2 story at a higher adjustment basis.

      Basements in CO often drive half of what the qualifying agla areas drive in terms of price and value, sometimes even a third or less. There are a lot of homes without basements because the water tables are too high, they compete laterally with units with basements, less a little cut for the actual basement minimized value. It’s easy to cross comp bas vs no bas, because of a diminished basement value factor. If that basement is finished or not, it does not matter, the adjustment basis of basements are not normally equivalent to that of garden level and all other qualifiable AGLA areas.

      Having a basement in CO is a chore, foundation fault issues are common. Let your gutter fail for a year or two, don’t keep up with drainage, you’ve got a foundation crack that costs $25k+ to repair or more. That is not as common with bi’s and tri’s, which is why builders turned to that design factor for a myriad of reasons. It is why we get the best of both worlds with a bi level or tri level which acts as a heat sink or cooling factor and helps retain heat in the winter. Entirely different living factors than actual fully dug in basements. Hence the difference in market reactions to their value. Builders always finish garden levels with similar quality, where as basements are often items owners have to finish themselves so the basements have wildly varying cost and value factors compared to the standard garden level. Rules of thumb for CO appraising; the garden level tracks with all other AGLA as being equivalent in value. The basements have a reduced value factor even if they are finished (except for aforementioned luxury stock). Those are good rules of thumb in CO.

      Adhering to ANSI is going to take 4 adjustment lines in many scenarios. The qualifying AGLA which until today included garden level but now means only above earth, the unfinished basement area, the finished basement area if present. And now the new line which is finished market recognized AGLA, which due to ANSI technicality can no longer be included in AGLA lines, the dreaded garden level which can not be included in the top agla line even though it is market recognized as having equivalent value.

      Because that is exactly what ANSI is defining here, a third type of living area. By technicality because nobody in the real world perceives it that way, not around here at least. In CO many people including myself may prefer a bi or tri level because it’s just cool and comfy with less energy resource use to be in the garden level. An entirely different feel then being relegated to some dungeon basement which stays cold never gets sun, no egress unless you spend a fortune on a big new window well, musty, prone to flooding, spiders always trying to get in your business, need an escape ladder and a well cover so nobody falls in, the occasional bunny whom hops in and perishes with no way out, leafs and trash. None of that is present with garden levels partially below partially above grade. In the real world these two living environments are not interchangeable and are nothing at all similar. Buyers prove it too, they don’t distinguish very much between a bi, tri, or 2, if they’re all in the same market area. Luck of the draw, whatever is available.

      Shall we dive into the occasional scenario where due to sales scarcity, locational factors, where the appraiser has no other choice but to comp ranches w/ a mix of fin bas, non fin bas vs a bi level or tri level… Sometimes that tri level has a partial basement too if it’s on slope and may be only partially above grade. Toss a 2 story with or without a basement in the grid scenario. How’s that going to work when I’m comping a ranch w/ bas vs a bi level? I’ll have to draw up a special individual line item for the second half of the bi and will not be able to put the garden level lower half of the bi into the basement line, because it does not adjust at an equivalent amount to that ranches basement.

      None of this answers the logic question of how can I have half the finished space attributable to ANSI qualified fin sq ft, the other half to non qualified finished sq ft, and all of the room counts are in the above grade line? It is literally impossible under every real world scenario imaginable to have an entire half of a homes space, which has zero attributable room count. This is a fictitious reporting strategy. If there is a finished space, there MUST be a room count attributable to that.

      Now I do certainly understand the concept of scooting the data. Sometimes that is unfortunately necessary but we should not do that on purpose if avoidable. The vast majority of report readers do not understand the concept of technicalities in appraisal development. It’s like purposefully trying to confuse readers and users of appraisal reports. Our duty legally extends beyond the client and stated users. People need and deserve to be able to read an appraisal and even if it’s their very first time reading an appraisal grid, they should be able to understand what the appraiser did and comprehend the methods. If the purpose is maintaining the public trust in the real estate profession, adopting fictitious reporting methods contrary to what every other licensed and qualified person in the region operates with, that’s not cutting it. We’re going to look like fools.

      We already have a standardized measurement approach in this state. It works, and it works well. Garden level is qualifiable AGLA space. When I run agla for ritzy areas with high quality finishes, sometimes the basement can match the agla adjustment amount but that is rare, reserved for luxury areas usually. The predominant finish quality for most regular houses simply does not have as high of a finish in the basement as they would have in above grade areas, or garden levels. And if they do they still don’t sell for as much. In the above long post I highlighted the ppsf factors realtors enter. When you get into stock with basements there is always variance. The units with fin basements will almost certainly have a higher above grade ppsf factor, and a lower below grade ppsf factor. It’s the rule of thumb because it’s true. The market reaction to basements is simply not equivalent to above grade areas, finished or unfinished, the basements still track for less. Therefore the basements need adjusted at a different value basis.

      For one example (but this number keeps climbing in hot CO markets), I’ll run agla at $55 and then tag basements at 10/14, fin/unfin, slide the scale sometimes if needed. And I can identify that sliding the scale is needed by examining net/gross ratios as I apply adjustments, because all else being equal, the net gross indicator will illustrate to me if I’m applying excess or not enough adjustments. Not all adjustments need to come from mass data extraction. The use of the net/gross line to be an honest indicator of an appraisers finger on the pulse of the market or not, is essential. Take a 2 second look at an appraisal, cut to net gross, and that’s an expression of similarity or dissimilarity, regarding the homes comparative valuation balance. Not anymore!

      And how do you handle all bi levels, do you cut all the comps in half and scoot all to the basements? Do you guess at that if the assessor does not give garden level figures? Am I to purposefully jump the net gross indicators so substantially by subtracting then adding back an identical adjustment resulting in a 0% net and 50% gross adjustment indicator before I’ve even started with other meaningful applied adjustments? That is so nonsensical. How do you comp a bi vs a tri? I get the concept of scooting data but why would an appraiser purposefully drive net gross higher and butcher the comprehensive nature of net/gross indicators, by cutting a subject home in half, reporting all others as the market reports them, adjusting down on the agla only to adjust up again on the basement. That’s ficitcious reporting because all the space has equivalent market value as agla area, therefore no adjustment should be applied in the first place!

      Then you’ll have this false indicator of the tri needing 1/3 more adjustment gross volume, even though in the real world both the tri and the bi homes have equivalent size and value. It makes no sense to fictitiously push half of that market recognized agla area into a basement line for the sake of standardization. When in fact, the data had comprehensive standardization in the first place which the entirety of the entire realty community recognizes and adheres to, except for a few rare apprasiers whom adhere to ANSI even though nobody else does.

      Are bi’s and tri’s prolific in your area or are you running theoretical understanding of this past me? I can see how this may work in areas where garden levels are not common or where garden levels may drive diminished value similar to an actual basement. Where garden level value simply may not drive as much as truly above grade housing. But in locations like CO the garden level is just as good as a two story for all practical purposes. Even Marshall and Swift identifies a bi level as a two story property type.

      There is no amount of theoretical explanation which can over ride the local market. The market has spoken. The basement drives lower value factors than the garden levels routinely. Therefore intermingling the garden and the basement in the same adjustment line will result in skewed adjustments one way or the other. If I drive the adjustment basis figure high, the basements will adjust up too much. If I drive the figure, low the garden levels will adjust too little. I can not run a variable adjustment basis amount on the same line or I’ll lose my software assistance, be back to punching everything individually on a calculator, reviewers won’t understand, auto review alerts will fire non stop. I’ll never be able to come up with innovative comp solutions in scarce comparable selection scenarios again. I’ll have to laboriously work time on everything because I won’t be able to mix and match the most recent sales selections if they are variable types of builds.

      I don’t care what anyone says. This is a disaster in the making. It is evident by the exception allowances. This applies to one type of assignment but not the other? What!?!?! Previously before this ANSI mandate, in CO at least, we enjoy comprehensive alignment of reporting expression of size regardless of the assignment type. Not anymore. And whatever for this excuse of appraisers coming in at wildly varied size measurements. That does not happen around here very frequently because we do not have weirding home stock like a lot of 1.5’s or cape cods or castle curves or whatever. Colorado enjoys standardized building strategies for the most part (changes every decade or two but that’s to be expected, you don’t notice it if you’re comping in the same age class). It’s because of the weather, the cold, the heat, the snow, we don’t get quite as much design variance in regular housing stock. It’s actually really hard to mess up a sketch for most of these houses, I only run across mention of sketching drawing variance rarely, about once a year or so. All these years later I still use a 100 ft metal tape and find this just the most reliable tool possible. It fits in my pocket. Only had to buy it once. No E-Waste! It holds up when I track through thorny roses and bushes, leap over wells, slip around mud and rocks, etc.

      I don’t know, GXX001. What makes me more of an authority on local housing size recognition than my local assessor and all the builders whom operate here? Certainly not FNMA, or ANSI, they’re half a country away and are not local. If FNMA wants this ANSI thing, they’ll have to get the assessor to retroactively change all this recognition. Then MLS will have to retroactively alter all sizing records, change their data mapping completely. And then when all the agents use this method, I can too without much ado. What is the deal with appraiser exceptionalism like we know more than all the other licensed professionals? No, it’s a team effort and you don’t win trust by running the wrong direction on the field. My priorities is not pleasing the ANSI group or GSE people. My priority is maintaining a perfect claims and complaints free record so I can make it out of this god forsaken industry alive with my license intact and find something better, hopefully soon.

      I’m not going to have a stroke, don’t worry about that. Ha! If the tone is harsh, it’s directed at the bureaucrats not my fellow appraiser peers whom have so boldly been here with me. Thank you for reading. I’ll find some workaround like working the grid twice with image captures or something and doubling up on the sketch effort. So much for increased efficiency. And the CU database is going to take a hit like starting completely over, everything from the peer model basis of adjust amount to the actual size records starts fresh from today. The sketch was the only easy part about it. That and photos. Looks like they don’t trust me with a camera anymore either, want someone else to do that part. As bbk says; the thrill is gone.

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      • Avatar Tom B says:

        Yes, Tri-Level, bi-level are prolific here. When I’m looking at the homes you show me I have zero doubt that I could appraise them. Measure them to ANSI standards and align the comps to the subject.

        ANSI does not regulate how you reason, report, adjust, or explain your report in narrative.

        Not saying I’m better than anyone else, Just saying what troubles you has been my day to day life in appraising.

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        • Avatar chris says:

          Tom…Well said. I do splits, bi-levels, contemps all the time, and have to use my brain, No one in 30 years has ever questions my GLA’s on anything…We appraisers are the professional and NO one else is in this business. All these appraisers complaining are the ones who have not been measuring and stealing the assessors sketches..

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      • Avatar don says:

        The Appraisal AIN”T that big, Write smaller

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  95. Avatar Chris says:

    Do people actually use the GLA on the listing? I found maybe 1 out of 100 is accurate. The agent is trying to sell the house, they have added basements, garages, decks balconies sheds into the GLA just to get people to go and see it. I had an agent stand next to me, in a basement both of us next to and looking into the crawl space say… “And this has a full completely finished basement” !! They dont know how to tell the truth. It was a 12oo sf basement with about 200 finished. The only acceptable “reliable” source for GLA is the assessor.

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    • Avatar chris says:

      Chris…I beg to differ, I have work in many, many counties and the assessor is rarely correct. Its from mis measuring the properties for all kinds of mistakes, not getting into he garage, not knowing where the garage stops, open to below areas, open staircases foyers, or just rounding up on every wall…and the best one is not measuring every wall, the one I am writing now is off by over 200 sq ft, about 10% on the assessor page and it was a simple colonial to measure, they didn’t measure every wall and just assumed the 1 wall was the same size as the other making the house 200 sqft larger. The only accurate measurement is the ones we appraisers supply…..which is why they want all of us on the same playing field, desktops are coming, appraiser dens by lenders are coming with inspection down by 3rd party services, probably also owned by the bans. The appraiser are dieing out and not training….They are simply getting ready for mass retirements. I myself will only be appraising 4 months out of every year within the next few months, after 30 years I am sick of driving.

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      • Avatar Tom B says:

        I agree. Our assessors are generally good but some ares are just totally screwed up. The quality of the MLS system has a great deal to do with what you are able to glean as to where all the square footage goes.

        There are MLS systems and assessor offices that are just off the charts in quality data.

        Our MLS for decades was pathetic. Now it’s Average. Some agents post Sq Ft per appraiser but only a few post the sketch and I’m not sure I have ever seen one credit the appraiser copyright.

        I do agree with the other Chris though and that has been especially true around here. Agents don’t want reliable and accurate data. They want to be able to sell.

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        • Baggins Baggins says:

          Interesting. The condition in CO is a more reliable MLS & assessment system than what those sound like. The availability of automatic import tools makes filling MLS property listings a breeze with auto data importing through all covered counties. I think agents can choose to go manual, copy last list, or as most do; pull directly from the assessors database. Another reason we have such good consistency with universal reporting methods. The justification for going against the grain with some different reporting method is not the same here as it is there. It’s all laid out ahead of me, I don’t need to change anything but do still always go through redundant data verification. Why cast off that research strength and validation in favor of something a-typical which people do not use nor understand? You guys are talking like I have a problem with the task or something. I’m questioning this mandated new method because the existing problem solving tools at hand are entirely sufficient and functional.

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      • Avatar Van Wolslagel says:

        I have to agree about the accuracy of Appraisal information we find on public records.

        I cannot count how many times I have found erroneous assessor file information. Appraisers many time obtain info regarding living area from several outside sources, for instance, new tract developers give the list of plans they get building permits for, maybe 3 different model sizes, but what about the added options, like loft, finished 3rd level, etc. which are rarely sent to the assessor for correction to any particular property.

        I recently did research in 3 cities in the So. Ca. high desert region finding several tracts which had no added bonus room in the public records. This was an area build by the developer as an added option and impossible to detect unless you discuss with home owners which has and has no bonus room.

        In one tract i determined, after door to door investigation, and research of building records in the developers main office 2 counties away there was 52 homes with larger GLA. When presented to the assessors office for consideration, they simply stated, we don’t know if this is correct, so they will wait till each individual contacts the assessor for a correction house size re check.

        Imagine, how many appraisers used sales for comparison on the property they were valuing and not knowing the sales were actually 400 sq ft larger, but records said it was a model match to yours, but yours does not have the added bonus room. MLS records only stated the assessor GLA, and as typical the listing details were sketchy at best.

        SO, Verify, Verify, Verify – don’t trust the data unless you knows its reasonably accurate.

        The other 2 cities, yep had similar issues, one developer left an unfinished development in 2007/08 either selling off in foreclosure , or something to the same effect. The original developer has gotten building approval for all the lot with each having a specific room count and size approved, BUT, never finished. The new developer renewed the old permits, but build difference room count and sizes. When checking the sales you find the sale price, document recording numbers, etc and the wrong GLA and room count, so you make erroneous adjustments based on erroneous data on the public records and ultimately given a wrong valuation. And that’s why Geographic competency is so valuable to the lender even if they don’t get it .

        I guess what I am trying to get across, is do your homework people and if some entity wants to change the way you measure, unless it leads to misleading the client, Adjust, Adapt and , Overcome.

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        • Baggins Baggins says:

          However, it may be difficult to verify data that only exists in the minds of appraisers.

          As all other data sources including the open sales market, do not use ANSI standardized measurement approaches.

          I guarantee you courts, lawyers, and the tax authorities, are not going to voluntarily remove half of a bi levels qualifiable space and say it has a diminished value or somehow needs the lower basis of a basement adjustment applied.

          Tough luck seller. I know you think this is a 2k sq ft home, but now half of that is a basement and we simply can’t comp out against the two stories on either side of you. The tri level even though it’s smaller than you, now actually reads as having more above grade square footage.

          Buyers are going to be so confused, this is going to tank comprehensive market research in the state of Colorado.

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        • Avatar don says:

          Van that’s only 3 verifies. Should be “5”or more as needed.
          The seller’s, agent the buyer’s, agent the lender, the buyer, the seller, the county records, the water district, the drainage district, the Lake association, the Dock rights association, the leasing ownerships, etc.
          Some properties are more complicated, some not so much so.
          make sure you charge enough and do a complete appraisal, as stated in your contract.

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  96. Avatar Fred Mazure says:

    I have recently taken an ANSI class and have been emailing Fannie Mae about about how stupid this is. Nobody and I mean nobody (including the instructor and Fannie Mae) can answer the question: How am I supposed to know how much of a comps GLA is actually above grade GLA and actually finished basement/below grade? Whoever came up with these new ANSI measurement standards did not think this through!!

    Also, why don’t the non-appraisers, who are inspecting for desktop/hybrid appraisals, have to follow the new ANSI standards? They are just as capable as measuring to the tenth of an inch as appraisers are.

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    • Avatar chris says:

      Fred….I am not sure what your MLS are like, But if you can not figure out the comps, above grade or below grade, you should not be appraising real estate.

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      • Baggins Baggins says:

        More appraiser elitism. That’s compliant with ethical rules.

        If you’re so amazing why don’t you work at FNMA?

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    • Avatar Van Wolslagel says:

      I have been doing appraisal jobs for over 40 years, and If you’re trying to make sense of why FNMA does what it does, don’t even try, because FNMA doesn’t even know.

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      • Baggins Baggins says:

        You’re absolutely right Van Wolslagel.

        But you know, FNMA spent a whole few weekends and an extra workgroup session ramming something through which effects hundreds of thousands of people down the line. And the ANSI group totally invited a few dozen appraisers to participate in their latest round of policy standards tinkering for the ‘not really final final ansi rule’ *(which will be reconsidered later because why not, sell more books). ANSI group was kind enough to ignore 14 out of 16 licensed appraiser volunteer consultants. They posted their work group comittee meeting minutes and the responses to all the appraisers suggestions. DENIED. DENIED. DENIED.

        I’m just happy the government bureaucrats found a way to make themselves appear useful so they can keep their jobs.

        It is going to be important to file FOIA and open records requests to see whom got paid.

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    • Avatar Chris says:

      You are supposed to be comparing to Comparable houses, Split to Split, Ranch to Ranch etc.. So whats the problem? Assessor data, market experience, MLS and other pictures of front, back and interior should be enough. How is this suddenly a problem? It has always been up to you to determine if your GLA source is accurate. If the assessor is basically the same as your sketch then it is a good chance they are correct for the sales you use. You know, the sales that should be the same or VERY close to the same as the subject. It has always been your job to determine if they are the same or if now how they are different and ADJUST from that. ANSI didnt suddenly make houses different.

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      • Avatar chris says:

        Chris…Well said….I am baffled by the uproar over this….They are just mad they have to measure and think about the comps. Which is why the appraisal Gods are making them do it.

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        • Avatar Chris says:

          It is bizarre but.. this is proving that there really needs to be a standardized method to measure that all use. I actually thought this was how everyone measured anyway. I am amazed that people dont exact measurements. From day 1 I was told use exactly what you measure. How much time is saved by rounding? If you round up or down and not use the exact measurement, the home owner, even the home owners 8-10 year old kids, can prove you are wrong with a simple tape measure. How are they supposed to trust your appraisal if you cant measure in fractions of an inch. They assume you are too dumb or just dont care in which case they figure you just dont care in the rest of the report.

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          • Avatar chris says:

            Chris…Well said again. I was taught to round to 6 inches. I did reviews for 5 years. I have seen sketches supplied in reports that don’t exactly match the house, not often but enough…lazy appraisers and talk to opening yourself to lawsuits….what do they say to the judge…sorry your honor, I didn’t think it was important measure???

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            • Avatar Chris says:

              Imagine if the guys building the house felt like building the house based on what they felt like building and not off of the blue prints.

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              • Avatar chris says:

                Chris…I did new construction 1 time, the house was 2 feet smaller then the blueprint and builders/realtor reported GLA….I found out that they hit a boulder, could not dynamite so they built the house 2 feet short….LOL I wish I could have been a fly on the wall when the buyer found out..LOL I did my job, its that’s simple..

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        • Baggins Baggins says:

          You rude people and your assumptions.

          We’re in an uproar because of the imposition into what is our own effective process in our locations.

          This may come as a surprise to the flatlanders of the world, but not every buildable location is on some flat plain and soft manageable soils. When we have to build into the rocks, expandable clays, sloping areas, that ‘below grade’ area may cost MORE To construct than above grade areas. When the land is flat there may be a better economical factor and then it’s cheaper to build up instead of out and the basements then run w/ a diminished value comparison compared… And yes, the construction crews often do have to go off the blue print to get the final product in place.
          There is a reason that standardization did not happen nationally. BECAUSE THE TERRAIN AND BUILDING CHALLENGES ARE NOT STANDARDIZED IN VARIED LOCATIONS. The earth is not standardized and homogeneous from one location to the other. Different terrains, different approaches.

          You guys are dreamers hoping for utopia. Standardization is never going to work. And what makes you people more important or authoritative in our locations? Keep to your own business and stay out of ours. Why should you win win something that works well for you in your locations and we lose with the imposition of something which seeks to completely re write and re structure our entire recognition basis for mountain houses? If you think cutting the comprehensive price metrics in half won’t matter you are wrong. You can’t just say a bi level is half the size or tri is a third less, and then expect that not to influence area prices and values.

          This is stupid and so are those whom in their arrogance can’t understand why this is not an effective thing to implement nationally. All this cheer leading for uniformity and uniform standards. I think it’s time for a dress code too, for everyone, non negotiable. Suits for men, dresses for women. NO EXCEPTIONS. Be careful what you wish for.

          Additionally it sounds like some of the data infrastructure systems may not be as reliable as others. Have some perspective. We’re supposed to rewrite our entire system and reliable reliance networks to comply with a system elsewhere? Why? Uniformity for uniformity’s sake is not an argument. Bringing uniform measurement standards for all dynamically varied real property will do nothing to stop the human error factor which has always been present and will always be present in the future. If there is doubt, get a second opinion.

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          • Avatar Chris says:

            Baggins…. you will be ok when you get used to it, don’t give yourself a heart attack,

            How have you been doing your reports for bi-level or split levels, just ignoring that the form says Basement & Finished Rooms Below Grade??? Below grade is below grade and above Grade is GLA.

            And why do you assume basements finishing or even basements have to LESS than above grade ?

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            • Baggins Baggins says:

              That is called the market reaction, and the subsequent extracted adjustable amount. Per the two long posts above I illustrated how bi levels are ‘market recognized’ as the lower ‘garden level’ having equal driving market power for value as the above grade. Also I illustrated how M&S confirms this concept.

              All one has to do is review the market ppsf metrics for units w/ bas, vs bi’s, vs 2’s w/o or ranch w/o. The market reaction that garden levels drive more than basements are apparent for most standardized tract housing. Therefore intermingling them in the basement line will require either a varied adjust amount based on exact type (lose your software support, fire additional review warnings, longer addenda to tediously explain the difference because in CO a basement is not a garden level, even though I have been forced to report that in a misleading manner under penalty of government via the ANSI no opt out mandate, or have an improper adjustment to those lines. ) Around here, we have been doing it the right way this entire time, because in our markets (not yours!), the garden level drives a reasonable equivalent. For rare walk out basement units they tend to get a nice boost to bring them somewhat back into level with garden, although their actual ppsf metric is still lower than garden.

              We don’t ‘ignore the form’ that says below grade. Because in Colorado, garden level is market recognized as above grade.

              WE ALREADY HAVE A UNIFORM MEASUREMENT STANDARD IN THIS STATE.

              It’s largely tied to our climate, building challenges, terrains, slope, weather.

              What would some poindexter from flatland east coast know about it? Nothing.

              I’ll reverse the question; How long have you been ignoring obvious market reaction basis in Colorado? We do not get to dictate the market. I guess all that ‘appraisers just measure the market and we don’t set the market’, right out the window. Now we decide that split level housing is equivalent to units with basements. The thought of a ranch w/ basement even if finished, driving as much as a finished bi level, not factual.

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              • Avatar Chris says:

                Can you post a picture of what garden level looks like for us idiots in Pennsylvania?

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                • Baggins Baggins says:

                  Might want to brush up on those reading skills. I posted three bi level examples with detailed analytics from mls, assessor, and zillow above. So did the other guy, so you have four examples. Keep in mind, builders always finished the lower levels and they were never left bare like a basement.

                  Application of this ANSI measurement mandate is not a ‘freely negotiated exchange’. They did so under threat of force and said we’ll all be unable to provide appraisals for FNMA unless we complied. Heil FNMA!

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                  • Avatar Tom B says:

                    ” I posted three bi level examples with detailed analytics from mls, assessor, and zillow above. So did the other guy, so you have four examples.”

                    Since I was the other guy, I think it’s important to note that I also said I could come to Colorado and appraise those homes with the lower level being below grade with zero problem. All I would need is the MLS to search comps and be able to call the agents.

                    Especially if you are telling me the lower level sells for same price as above grade. That’s a friggin no-brainer.

                    You end up with the same value opinion.

                    I think you said a 2Story with no basement would sell for same as well.

                    So here is a short scenario.

                    Subject Bi-Level 2000sf 8/4/2 Selling for $200K
                    So it has 4/2/1 GLA above grade and 4/2/1 finished below grade. No problem.

                    Comp 1 a very similar B-Level so it gets reported in a similar manner. Sold for $198K

                    So far no adjustments

                    Comp 2 is 2Story 2000sf 8/4/2 sold for $205K
                    Reported all above grade — so you have a 1000sf/2br/1 bath adjustment at X dollars. Let’s just say – $100K
                    Now on the basement line you have the same 1000sf 2BR 1bath adjustment + $100K

                    Comp 3 is a ranch of 1800sf with unfinished basement. The basement has minimal value. It sold for $185K 7/3/2.1 count

                    GLA line adjusts for 900sf, one less br, one extra half bath. Large minus adjustment here
                    Basement line adjusts for 1800sf of minimal value no rooms no finish etc. Large plus adj here.

                    If those are the only comps you have. Ideally you would want bi-levels to prevent those large adjustments. Say three like comp 1.

                    BUT… the subject still comes out at $200K. I can’t imagine what a Realtor would have to do with anything. The assessor’s data supports the reporting. Anyone with eyesight can see that half of the lower level is below grade.

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          • Avatar Van Wolslagel says:

            Watch it, be very careful, you don’t want to be called a Racist and remember there are no Men or Women, just “People”

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            • Baggins Baggins says:

              Van, look at what a mess people make when they try to define a uniform language standard across different regions and different cultures.
              Lots of that going around lately. Now all the way to real property. Call it like we demand you say it, or else…
              One should carefully consider if they support this principal of restricting other peoples speech and individualized understanding by the use of force and penalty of government, before supporting the restriction of other peoples use of language and descriptive presentations with the use of force and penalties of government. Principal is what this country was founded upon and principled voluntary engagement must continue to matter regardless of the topic at hand, or we could find ourselves in a foreign land without ever having actually traveled anywhere. How’s globalism working out for you personally?

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      • Avatar BA says:

        In Ohio Bi Levels and Split levels are common through out but not every neighborhood will have more than a couple of one or both. Not all were sold in the past year or even in the past 5 years. Some have 3 levels some 4. No one knows until they do an interior inspection. The Auditor’s card shows these as having 1 level no basement.( ALL reported the same way by the site). No accounting for the upper level in Splits, or the walk out partial out of ground level in Splits and Bilevels or the below ground basement level in splits. Yet Fannie Mae states the appraiser’s knowledge of the area and styles as well as other sources should be enough for the appraiser to establish GLA and do reliable market adjustments. WHAT?? Not since 1980’s has it been acceptable for the appraiser to use guessing in appraising!! So out the window goes uniformity and accuracy and in with APPRAISER LIABILITY !!

        Now I am all for uniformity but uniformity must include all occupations that the public relies on in any given trade or field and all across the country. So while the Auditor uses one method, the Realtors use another, the builder a completely different approach and the home owner sees it different than everyone else …there can not be uniformity IMO. If there are requirements for Appraisers and penalties and liability for failure to comply then all other fields must also have the same guide lines and penalties to establish uniformity.

        Then we must also acknowledge the fact that this can not be fully and reliably accomplished until every home is re – sold or refinanced and/or ANSI measured for accuracy… which will take years to accomplish. So the FNMA requirement of uniform Accuracy of Measurements on Real Property may be misleading the consumer even more now as it is required to be declared in the Appraisal and the consumer is lead to believe that all homes are now measured this way with out a disclaimer for those that are guessed at!! and depending on who is measuring!!

        Someone did not think this through completely IMO. While I have always used the logical ANSI approved/ standard guide lines for accomplishing GLA and GBA of properties FNAM also had an exception that was allowed to be followed that stated if the home had Market acceptance for a style or an area considered in GLA it could be counted in GLA. While the new requirement does give a GRID area to separate the level and the ANSI measured GLA of each level .. NOW the appraiser needs data to support an adjustment for MARKET REACTION on the walk out ground level or basement of a split or BI level AFTER guessing about the size or even existence of that area!!.

        Well the consumer and the consumer data does not separate these areas out in my State. These homes are valued by consumers as a whole and not by level !! So now what?

        So many questions, so many opinions and lack of factual data can never equal UNIFORMITY IN MY OPINION.

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      • Baggins Baggins says:

        Chris, nothing to be confused about. WE DO CURRENTLY use a uniform standard. Garden levels are qualifiable above grade spaces, they track the same, their ppsf reporting is included, they do positively drive equivalent market reaction.

        In a perfect world yes, we could walk past this issue with perfect matching comps. When the market price and value benchmarks climb so fast, recent comps matter more than ever. Time extraction is an estimate and unreliable in all cases when compared to the better reliability factor of more recent sales. Time adjust can be averaged but that’s only theory. In the real world, +$10k this month, +$30k the next month. +$20k the next month. No change this colder month set. Back to +30k the first month of spring. Housing price and value has climbed +$300k if not more for ALL HOUSING in the past so many years. It is more important to select recent comparables now. Which means, a ranch w/ basement vs a bi level vs a 2 level w/ or w/o basement.

        Now with extreme value basis questions because what used to be qualifiable agla space before ansi is now attributable to the basement, yet that ‘basement non basement’ area does not adjust the same as actual basements. Therefore if there is any such true basement vs technical disqualified agla space which now needs in the basement line, there is severe value basis descrepance for the adjustment.

        And the improper use of form filling to drive net gross adjustments. If you people have been juggling your adjusts, adding something back which was adjusted out, you have been doing it wrong this entire time because net/gross is supposed to be a true unadulterated expression of similarity or dis similarity.

        Ignore the obvious idiocy of claiming a thousand square foot of finished living space has zero attributable room counts.

        Appraisals are not just for appraisers. They are for all users of valuation services. The people need and deserve to be able to understand the reporting in a simple straight forward manner. To purposefully confuse them with a network of scooted and juggled reporting and adjustment is exactly what a criminal would do when engaging in purposeful fraud, trying to keep some manipulation in the back ground undiscovered.

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        • Avatar Chris says:

          Baggins… You are all over the place with this. They want a standardized system of measurement system, The appraisal gods have spoken, they want better data so that they can see just how screwed up our country actually is financially.

          Don’t give yourself a heart attack after all the years you’ve put in,

          The stress is going to kill you.

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      The market has spoken. In some entire regions this ‘below grade’ area is recognized, priced, and valued THE SAME as above grade areas.

      Marshall & Swift M&S residential cost handbook confirms this is very possible and permissible, as their own guidance says the garden level partially below grade for all tri’s should run same adjustment basis as all truly above grade areas, and even also provides an exception for bi levels, they can adjust up to similar numbers based on local market standards for their finished qualities.

      ANSI can not change our entire market descriptions which are the norm, on their technicalities.

      Meanwhile, real legitimate basements track at a lower cost and value basis.

      The ‘solution’ appraisers can just scoot this qualifiable garden level into the basement line is absurd, because it tracks at a different basis than basements.

      Imagine a government that did not boss everyone around with mandates, a management body that actually held respect for other peoples local customs.

      So much for due process. Management by dictatorial decree. Heil FNMA.

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      See Fred, this is the rub. In other locations the sort of ansi approach is the standard.

      What some of these yahoo’s can’t even comprehend, is that there is no way to know or verify the below grade portion when quite literally the below grade portion had been counted in the above grade line since the beginning.

      Over time some assessors have tried to parse this data out but many have not and probably never will either.

      It’s called due process. And these people in their hubris and arrogance are not respecting the principals of volunteerism and due process.

      a course of formal proceedings (such as legal proceedings) carried out regularly and in accordance with established rules and principles

      — called also procedural due process
      2 : a judicial requirement that enacted laws may not contain provisions that result in the unfair, arbitrary, or unreasonable treatment of an individual

      — called also substantive due process

      The way assessors report housing is just one aspect of a due process example. There are already legal mechanisms and building codes on the books which clearly define what is and what is not qualifiable agla space. This is well documented for taxation, permitting, etc, etc.

      FNMA is asking every assessor for every county which does not use ANSI to rewrite their entire zoning coding allowance catalogues, retool all their data mapping, go back through a century of building permitting and retroactively adjust everything upward to this new standard.

      If the assessors do this, it will be easy for the appraisers to follow. Because we will then have a source of verification. Without this source of verification we are running in the blind to comply with an arbitrary standard which only exists in the appraisers mind and no where else. Fannie put the cart before the horse to think they can change the entire industry for the sake of their own proprietary data records. The CU system data actually belongs to the appraiser group collectively anyways, btw.

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      • Avatar don says:

        Aren’t their three or four States’ Assessors that won’t publish nor allow sq ft as public info. M.L.S. is the only source of info and the MLS’s don’t allow public access, only Realtors.

        Non disclosure is a county, or state option, its not federally constitutional

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        • Avatar BA says:

          In Ohio and surrounding States all information other than commission and listing details are public information. Realist is the public version of MLS. On top of that Zillow is now a Real Estate Brokerage. MLS has an agreement for information sharing with every other Brokerage and many sites that also “OPT in”. So the MLS here and in W Virgina, PA. and other areas does allow the property information to be seen publicly and it is the same information that the appraisers see.
          In Ohio each County has the Auditor and all of their information on properties is accessible to the public.

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        • Avatar Van Wolslagel says:

          The MAJORITY of MLS Associations DO allow appraiser access as a member or just go to the MLS office, they have always been more than helpful to the appraiser.

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          • Baggins Baggins says:

            In Colorado I think there is a rule about this, not sure. Regardless the standard rule of thumb is appraisers always get access to MLS systems. We often pay a little bit more for not being Realtor members but otherwise equivalent access. Also we have improved data sharing in Colorado, and I think four of the major metro plex districts all share with each other, although on the S side Colorado Springs (Pikes Peak MLS), and I think also Western slope Grand Junction is not sharing yet. But up on the North side, we get a lot of reliable shared data and we all have consistent reporting methods.

            Garden level is included in qualifiable above grade size reporting. I’ve never known it any other way! That’s because I’ve only every provided valuation services in this state.

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  97. Avatar Doug Kues says:

    Thought I knew ANSI until reading all these posts. Come Monday, I disclaim all accuracy and liability for confirming or verifying any problem with any comparable. Option is the same as it has always been. Hire someone else willing to guarantee accuracy within either 1/10th of a foot or 1/12th of a foot, their choice, and then warrant accuracy on a 3050 square footer with 1 square foot and clearly explain discrepancies between your findings and public record or any other source. What could be simpler?

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    • Avatar Chris says:

      What could be simpler? This is the result of any number of “appraisers” sending in reports of the same property over time with big discrepancies in the total GLA. People that only use 5′, 10′ 20′ because typing in a fraction or decimal amount, is way too time consuming and can save 3 milliseconds on the sketch. JUST USE the exact same measurement you got when you measured the stupid wall.

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      • Avatar Doug Kues says:

        It is true that we can jot down the exact measurement with each stretch of the tape or each targeted laser beam, but the ideal clear exterior wall with no facia and all exterior finish (T1-11, cement stucco, composite stucco, brick, stone, shiplap hardi-plank, log finish) are, of course, identical…. is certainly the exception rather than the rule in my market area. In addition, my money says your final exterior wall dimension will never match and close like it needs to if you have measured more than three walls.

        For the past 30 years I have rounded adjustment amounts to the nearest $100, $500, $1000 for site size, improvement size, cost to cure, and so on. When asked why I do this, the answer is quite simple…. I am just not that accurate, never claimed to be, and indeed when my opinion of final value is formed the answer will be $315,000 and will never by $314,772. Ever. Same answer, I am just not that good. Neither are you. If you tell me that an inground pool in your neck of the woods has a value of, say, $30,000, under cross examination I am going to ask you about your comps. Yunno, like size, age, materials, gunite, fiberglass, depth, heated, salt water, infinity, black bottom, orientation to yard, and so on. When you stumble over THOSE answers, I am going to ask you for your market reaction support to those differences between subject and comparables and how you arrived at your adjustment factor.

        The more precise you make your answers, the more I am going to make you feel foolish. Trust me.

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  98. Avatar BA says:

    I’m confused ANSI requires rounding to the nearest foot?? Where do the fractions come in on the report? Sorry just wondering.

    This is a another attempt for FNMA to be able to gain enough accurate data over the next five years to be able to use appraisers less and less. Listen to one of FNMA’s top officials. He even states in 5 years “we will have a reliable data base on properties like never before.” Well appraisers will always be required to measure so who will that Data base benefit? He also states Fannie cannot control Realtors and the MLS is only an advertising means. So lenders can not expect or dictate or change how Realtors measure or report in the MLS. He also said the same is true for Auditors they are not interested in the consistency there. So that tells me consumer protection is not in play here because the consumer’s first rely on the MLS or as he put it the “advertising” to pick properties they wish to see and buy. Then they do often look at the County records. So appraisers are the only ones who are now expected to assist in building this accurate Data base for the future. Again for what and who? Where’s the consumer interest and where’s the consistency? Again just wondering

    Let’s face it right now they need an appraiser as Federal requirements say they must have a licensed appraiser for every Federally funded transaction. But the LENDERS don’t want us in this business. Now the “hybrid appraisal” No visit by the appraiser and no ANSI requirement there… just inspection, photos and sketch provided by unlicensed people with an appraiser signing for responsibility.

    Now they are getting licensed Appraisers to build a reliable and more accurate data base for their future use. That is only accomplished by more accurate and more consistent on site measurements first and foremost. They don’t want unlicensed people claiming ANSI compliance cause then the lender is on the hook for allowing unlicensed people to do a vital part of an appraisal. That’s why they don’t require this in the new hybrid appraisal JMO

    I mean really all of us know these lenders have been trying to get rid of appraisers for MANY, MANY years now. I am all for and have been USING ANSI since I started but I don’t want to be manipulated into any Lender’s BS. ALL appraisers know that lenders and AMCs wish appraisers would fade away. They have used the old “there’s not enough Appraisers now and appraisals take too long and slow the process” for at least 10 years. Yet many lenders are the ones that demanded more requirements for licensing and for a the Appraiser to inspect every property. Fannie and Freddie being firm on that while many other MAJOR lenders have softened their stance now allowing Apprentices to inspect alone. So who is the major problem here the lenders who are always trying to circumvent the appraiser or the appraisers?

    Now they are even claiming systemic racism as a cause for low values in appraisal reports. We as appraisers know this is ridiculous !! If we follow the guidelines and standards and lender, state and USPAP requirements for the development and reporting of an appraisal then we ca not effect the values in any area with out very noticeable deviations well outside of the required distances and values that the QCs and underwriters are supposed to be looking for. So who is the one creating systemic racism ?

    These guys forget that RED LINING caused the biggest problem years ago that still has its effects today on many neighborhoods and that was pure LENDER POLICY …nothing to do with the Appraisal. Next they will claim Desk top underwriting can prevent this and humans can’t help themselves and we will see a new desktop program for that an new requirements for appraisers to follow on that.
    I know all the talk about privatizing Freddie and Fannie has been going on for a long time. I think it’s time that happened. The Governments knows that Lenders should not be allowed in Real Estate and Lenders should not be allowed to make over lays and additional requirements in the Appraisal industry either.

    They brought back no Doc no verification loans again last year!! We know that was the downfall we all suffered through and the cause of the LAST nightmare in our industry. That market crash was blamed all on the appraisers.

    Why do we keep letting these people create ways to get rid of us all the time?

    AGAIN …..Just wondering.

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    • Avatar Tom B says:

      “I’m confused ANSI requires rounding to the nearest foot?? Where do the fractions come in on the report? Sorry just wondering.”

      Trapezoidal building — yes, we actually have them here. Not to that extreme. but they exist.
      10.3 x 20.7 x 15.4 x 19.6 = ?

      Round the “?” to the nearest foot. NOT the individual measurement.

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  99. Avatar Chris says:

    I am the one who is confused, we have been using that method for 30 years, it is the way to measure a house, I am not sure how you have been measuring houses, I am not sure the way you were taught, I am not sure what you are looking at in assessors data which means nothing to us. Appraisers who know the assessors round up every figure so they can charge people more taxes. I just do not understand and nobody has been able to explain to me why you people are so upset to measuring a house under American standards?

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    • Avatar BA says:

      I don’t think anyone or at least most people are upset with measuring to ANSI standards. I have been doing it since I started years ago.

      ITs the other stuff that is really basically increased liability for Appraisers.

      Really no guessing in appraisals but what about trying to establish what a buyer will pay in a cape for the below 5 foot ceiling height area not counted in the GLA but counted in the non GLA area of the GRID?. Although I have never counted the sloping area less than the 5 foot ceiling height required in GLA… I ALSO have never had to grid the sloping NON GLA area and determine its value. REALLY there is NO data on that that is clear and concise but FNMA now requires you find the value and adjust for it. I’m sorry but I think that is some of the problem here . There is too much left open to interpretation which is the very reason for ANSI in the first place.

      To add to that FNMA’s top gun Lyle Radke stated he spent 8 hours measuring a property. HE said ” you simply charge more”.

      We all know that we are being shopped by bid requests and we are still being offered assignments for 230.00 for a 1004 UAD which is below 1996 appraisal prices. With gas up and now hours to measure by FNMAs own guy’s admission/words how do we get compensated for the increase in gas pricing and the additional hours he states these can take? I think that is some of the things people are questioning. Not the ANSI requirements. JMO

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      • Avatar Tom B says:

        So what’s fair? $50- $100 more for a standard home? New complex construction. Not basic 1950s box.

        The longest I have ever spent measuring was 2 hours. that’s just my market. I have seen places and wondered how appraisers charge just to measure them.

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        • Avatar BA says:

          No one knows what’s fair yet but most of us know what ever is decided the appraisers will not get what they should.
          JMO

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          • Avatar Chris says:

            True, but its our own fault. Appraisers have never been able to get together on anything. Blogs and forums have appraisers asking actual questions and being berated by 99-100% of the other appraisers answering. For many, if not most, its a race to the bottom to see who can get the most work and taking lowest possible fee just to get the work while on-line that same bottom feeder says they “wont get out of bed for less than $500” and in reality take less than $200 for an appraisal. On facebook there is a guy who does residential and says he averages $2,000 up to $20,000 (not typos) for a residential appraisal. The arguing and back stabbing for work resulted in a group that is unable to come together, like realtors, and stand as one. We have no real representation or authority, only arguing and ego puffing, that is why appraisers are a target

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            • Avatar BA says:

              AGREE very strongly with all you just said.

              We need to stand together, listen to each other and respect all of our peers when issues like this come up. If we all refuse to bend in the FNMA wind or the new Hybrid BS who will win? We as Appraisers know the risks of the things these lenders come up with so we should stand united not argue over semantics. We also need to consider that AREA, STATE, TOWNS are different. What works in one area will fail miserably in another. We have to establish VALUE BY MARKET DATA. This data will differ by area and depends on many things including, area economy, land use and yes even the climates. How can anyone say it s all the same thing? I never have to shake my shoes to remove a scorpion and you may never want a basement in Miami FLA. Some people will never understand a “walk up” and others a Lock out” and more still may think an apartment of 650 sq ft costing 1.2 mil is a fairy tail. But these thing are all in the US.

              So as a group of people working in an industry that is vital to every home buyer or investor or professional in the US we need to come together and hear each other without criticism being our first reaction. Different views, thoughts and even opinions are all worth considering.

              If we do not stand together, we will end up on unemployment together in the end when these lenders get rid of us all with their crazy impossible demands.

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              • Avatar Chris says:

                I would love it but it will not happen. Too many have decided to get all the work they can at any price and accept anything they can just to get all the work. It would be nice to have our own version of NAR but we cant. If we did NONE of this would happen. There would be no such thing as an AMC and we would not be pushed around like we are. We have local “groups” to represent us if we join. I did, in Illinois we have Icap. But, this month they launched a sensitivity and inclusion task force to fight appraiser bias. In that I see this appraiser organization is jumping on the woke band wagon and instead of standing up and saying the appraisers do not have a bias problem they are now saying we are and we do. I will no longer give a penny to ICAP and hope it goes down in rainbow colored flames.

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              • Avatar Chris says:

                BA…. crazy impossible demands? Wow you guys are losing your minds over a just another standardization in our industry.

                How have you been reporting splits and bi-levels all along, everything was above grade???

                Counting small finished attics as GLA like levels #1 and #2 when they are just small finished attics for the kids to play in? Or teenager to crash in?

                Or is it that you think your freedoms are at stake?

                I really want to know…..

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                • Baggins Baggins says:

                  Chris, I think I did view a small finished attic once a decade ago, in one of those mountain gnome homes that is 100 ft tall and 15 ft wide, like a giant triangle. And I may have read about that in the miniscule 1.5 lvl stock in Denver, which our local MLS and assessors already sorted out a uniform standard for them long ago.

                  I don’t know what a split level is like in your neck of the woods but it’s obviously nothing like the high quality luxurious well built housing around here. Keep your standards to yourself, BI LEVELS DO NOT HAVE BASEMENTS. It’s called a free market, and that is how we have defined it. It was not defined by one person, this is a long term pattern across this entire state. Realtors whom have dared to list their bi levels as ansi standard have been roasted and kicked aside. Either that guy is stupid or what, he mistook half the bi level for a basement. What an idiot.

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                • Avatar Doug Kues says:

                  This is not really “just another standard” if you think about how compromised your adjustment reliability just became. Has little to do with how “WE” measure, but far more to do with how “OTHERS” measure.

                  I put this up there with when they (FNMA) removed the word “apparent” from the question “Are there any adverse environmental issues…..” versus “Are there any apparent environmental issues….” and when AMC clients added the word “properly” to the question “Is the water heater double strapped…” versus “Is the water heater properly double strapped…..” One version is easily answered, and the other adds to your exposure exponentially.

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                  • Baggins Baggins says:

                    Oh winning post! Thank you Doug Kues.

                    “Has little to do with how “WE” measure, but far more to do with how “OTHERS” measure.”

                    Question: If every single realty agent and assessor calls garden level as above grade…

                    What is the proper way for an appraiser in that same market setting to report?

                    From a view point of professionalism of course.

                    For the past 50 years that has been to report in a similar matter. What changed?

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                • Avatar BA says:

                  Chris…I don’t think you have been reading all I posted. Maybe go back and catch up then get back to me. I have been measuring ANSI since it was introduced in 96.

                  Don’t have any problem with it and never measured a property the way you are seeming to suggest. So please before responding know what I am addressing cause it has not been about simple measuring or the ANSI standards.

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              • Baggins Baggins says:

                I remember a few people whom barked mandates, recently and in the past.

                History has no respect for people whom don’t respect others.

                Fannie mae does not set the market. It’s not in their charter, nor is it within the realm of their capability. Sure are good at screwing it up though.

                Don’t you get it, FNMA is extending another ‘special privilege’ to it’s insider people, specifically the builders and data companies whom need a uniform standard for THEIR SPECIAL INTEREST reasons. Getting on board cheer leading a non negotiable no opt out dictatorial mandate, anyone whom does so looks like a fool. Volunteerism is essential, otherwise all one ends up with is a boondoggle.

                If you like this, more power to you, go for it. If you think it’s appropriate for people to lose their jobs and careers over this, you would deserve to go first. If we are to have non negotiable opt outs, I want a dress code, tax relief, increased law and order, a great many things. Be careful what you wish for, others may not feel the same and it won’t be long once a culture of sweeping non negotiable dictates takes hold that you’ll be in the firing line next. Or you know, move to north korea or china, they love to boss people around over there. Pick up your red flag. Like the masks and the vaccines, it is acceptable to opt out on principal. Although as I’ve expressed here, there is a lot more wrong with this than the principal of authoritarianism and using the force of governemnt wrong with this one. But for people whom don’t even recognize the basic concept of volunteerism and how they’re violating the basic principals and tenets of a free society, how sad that you can’t see yourself as we do. You think you’ll have a better social credit score by complying? You will not. What the hell, don’t you people see this, the bureaucratic nature of localized differences in process recognition and standards is what protects us. A varied system from here to there is a strength not a weakness. You really want to compete with tycoons around the world, in your own back yard?

                We are from the government and are here to help.

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  100. Avatar BA says:

    “Q18. The GLA of comparable available to appraisers
    may not be based on the ANSI standard. How should
    appraisers manage this issue?
    “GLA found in local MLS systems and assessor records may not
    be ANSI standard compliant. The appraiser may not know what
    methods real estate agents or assessors use to ascertain GLA.
    Appraisers already deal with this uncertainty routinely, regardless
    of what GLA method the appraiser uses for the subject property.
    Through research and knowledge of the local market, appraisers
    determine if the GLA of the comparable should be adjusted relative
    to the subject. Appraisers will continue to perform this analysis like
    they have always needed to do”

    AND

    “Our longstanding policy on adjustment rates has not changed – we
    require appraisal adjustments to reflect market reaction. This is
    explained in the Analysis of Adjustments section of Selling Guide
    B4-1.3-09, Adjustments to Comparable Sales: “The expectation
    is for the appraiser to analyze the market for competitive properties
    and provide appropriate market-based adjustments…” It is up to the
    appraiser to determine the market reaction for non-GLA areas, which
    may be greater than, less than, or equal to that of the GLA”

    This is very concerning to me and is directly from FNMA. Maybe I am just over thinking this and the sky isn’t falling but I am reading a direct expectation that is not satisfiable by data on inspection and as usual can not be PFA . COMPARABLE DATA …..It seems to suggest we should just know about every property we use as a comparable. The Guide clearly sates no guessing on adjustments. ALL MUST BE able to be confirmed and even explained with available MARKET DATA Never before has anyone expected appraisers to “know based on experience and knowledge of an area, style” in fact forever we’ve been told ” MY peers, or my knowledge /experience, or it is an industry accepted method” IS NOT an acceptable method for arriving at adjustments. NOW IT IS? ON THINGS WE CANT EVEN SEE?

    AND this (just a point of irritation for me as it seems no one appears to want to sincerely help the appraisers comply unless they can get paid.

    So many people are profiting off of this. Classes , Books, Papers, all for a 25.00 or more price tag. What has happened to our support or our Foundations? Its all about money every where IMO.
    I love this statement little Q & A.
    “Q9. How will lenders know that appraisers used the
    ANSI standard?
    The ANSI standard requires appraisers to make certain written
    declarations. Appraisers will indicate adherence to the ANSI standard
    by making the applicable declarations in the appraisal report. Failure
    to provide the written declaration when applicable voids any claim of
    adherence to the ANSI standard”

    Where is this available with out paying for it?
    If Fannie Wants us to be compliant then why do we have to BUY a statement to satisfy their requirement.? ” This is ridicules IMO. COME ON NOW just put the required “DECLARATIONS ” in the FNMA guide in the Appraisal section like every other requirement and guidance so we can PLEASE YOU!!
    What the disclaimer for error here?

    IS THE SKY FALLING OR NOT….. HELP ME HERE CAUSE ALL I SEE IS CHOAS AND LIABILITY!

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    • Avatar Tom B says:

      Here are the declarations for free. They were sent to me and I assume many other appraisers across the country by a client.

      Examples of acceptable declarations include: — These are for when you did not measure the dwelling outside and inside.

      If you measure the dwelling per ANSI… Just state something like. Finished Square Footage was measured per ANSI Z765-2021.

      This is for when you can not get inside but measured outside.

      “Finished square footage calculations for this house were made based on measured dimensions only and may include unfinished areas, openings in floors not associated with stairs, or openings in floors exceeding the area of associated stairs.”

      Plans and specs

      “Finished square footage calculations for this house were made based on plan dimensions only and may vary from the finished square footage of the house as built.”

      When you can’t get to dwelling and can’t trust plans, etc.. So you use the best info you have.

      “Finished square footage calculations for this house were made based on estimated dimensions only and may include unfinished areas, or openings in floors not associated with stairs, or openings in floors exceeding the area of associated stairs.”

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      • Avatar BA says:

        Tom B

        Thank you that was ridiculously simple huh….

        They make it sound like some very dark secret coded disclaimer that has to be written in the report exactly as they require it.

        Here’s what FNMA states in the Q&A ” Requires appraisers to make CERTAIN written declarations. Appraisers will indicate adherence to the ANSI standard by making the APPLICABLE declarations in the appraisal report.”

        Really in all the Q&A papers why didn’t they just state the required language they expect to see” Why be so ridiculously covert.?
        Anyway thank you again for the help with that.

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        • Avatar Tom B says:

          No problem. You also don’t have to use that exact wording. Your specific situation may afford you give an even more clear representation of the specific situation.

          There are appraisers here that are not only choosing a hill but trying to build a mountain to die on over ANSI. It’s not worth it and makes no sense.

          ANSI Z765-2021 is not about valuation. It is about being able to measure a residence and classify the areas you measure. The standard simply creates a situation where everyone gets the same results per building. Local customs make no difference. It’s not about valuation.

          As an example. You have one chocolate and one vanilla ice cream cone.

          The standard is the cone has a certain size and holding volume. So those two segment wafer cones have sort of a basement section then the larger top section. The wizard hat cones can’t easily pack that extra ice cream in the bottom section. So the standard might be to measure the wafer cones as two stacked cylinders. No problem Volume of a Cylinder. C1 + C2 = Wafer cone. Use Pi*r2*H for calculation.

          The wizard hat style gets measured by volume of a cone shape. V=Bh/3.

          So those are standards.

          Now lets say the wafer cone holds more and is served with more ice cream but people are willing to pay the same price for a wizard hat cone with less ice cream. That’s a value thing. If I’m selling ice cream cones you ask me how did I calculate the volume of wafer cones. I say Pi*r2*H. You say cool, I just wanted to be sure what I’m buying.

          Now you ask me how I measure wizard hat cones and I say they are 2 ounce cones. You say but how do you measure the volume. I say around here we put 2 ounces of ice cream in. It’s a 2 oz cone. Everyone knows that. Trust me it’s a two ounce cone. Now you don’t know really what you will get when it arrives. I gave you no dimensions and no calculations.

          Now you buy the cones and put chocolate and vanilla ice cream in them. 2.5 oz in the wafer and 2 oz in the wizard hat. You sell them for $5. Someone asks for a chocolate cone and you give them a wafer with white ice cream. They are from out of state and look at you crazy. You say…. Jeeze… that’s custom here. It’s a two hundred year old joke. You order the opposite of what you really want. Wafer cones are standard unless you specify. You just ordered a chocolate cone. So you get Vanilla in a Wafer cone.

          Do you see how the marketing and value related issues have nothing to do with the whole scenario except for one. That is YOU, as the MONEY MAN buying cones and my not telling you how I measure wizard hat cones to a standard. You can make business decisions with my wafer cone info. But you don’t really know what you are getting with my wizard hats.

          “Now is that a real poncho or is that a Sears poncho?” – Frank Zappa

          That’s all FNMA — The money people, want to know.

          That is the “crux” of our current situation as it relates to the money side of the appraisal industry. Let’s face it. We serve the people with the money, or an ownership that needs to be equated to real money.

          It’s not rocket surgery.

          I have a den and sun room both 10 x 10.

          Both are 100sf. May not have the same value. But both are 100sf. You don’t tell me the sun room is 150sf because the market has for 100 years determined it feels that way.

          You tell me it’s 100sf and adjust for 50sf of “feel”.

          ANSI and Valuation are two different things and I have never seen a residence that I couldn’t equate to ANSI.

          I have turned down work because I have no comps but not because I couldn’t measure and describe the subject.

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          • Avatar BA says:

            OH gosh Tom I am so sorry to put a fly in the soup as you took so much time and thought in that post. I also have to say I totally agree with your example and in theory it is perfect.
            I just can not ignore other factors. The problem is not that simple IMO. See by your own example here you have actually shown the very thing that has me concerned. So let’s look at it from a little different perspective.
            First the “Wizzard hat cone (love that description) which you show has measurements and volume. Let me assume that these are in principle provided by either you measuring or by information provided by a reliable source. (Just assuming so…)
            Let’s then take the wafer cone and assume the same is true.
            The problem is someone has provided the information you need to compare the 2 cones. Someone or an entity that is reliable or you yourself have preformed the necessary steps to extract your accurate and detailed information…. Either way there’s more.
            What if someone else puts 1.5 oz or even 4oz in the wafer cone. That would change what the results are when pricing the cones. Yet someone else does not know the weight of the ice-cream they put in the cone and has no idea what to tell you. Without weighing the product yourself how can you price the product(the cone) or even compare it to your known cone weight for a consumer? So price per oz is now a mystery? It could be 1.5 oz or 4.5 oz and the consumer could be getting less than the proper amount or far more than the wafer cone for the same price. right?

            Now in weights and measures (an entirely different subject) There is a required weight and measure for all products for consumer protection and an actual department in charge of checking all of these things including gas per gallon and so on. Why do all measured items sold to consumers require a weights and measures State official to assure accuracy? Why not the most expensive item a consumer buys? Why do we guess when even ice cream has to be weighed? Just wondering..

            Back to our subject.in the case of the cones you have verifiable information for units of comparison and for units of measurement.
            So all is well there. In this new FNMA requirement its fine for the subject but no so much for the comps. Verifiable for the subject not so for the comps. How do we know? Recently I did a home that the porch was enclosed and heated and added to the kitchen and GLA . On top of that the GLA according to the Auditor and the MLS was 1755. That 1755 included an unheated unfinished attic no walls only studs and some insulation.
            I measured a plus for the enclosed finished porch and a minus for the unfinished attic. My actual measurements (ANSI) were 1525. Then came the revision request for verifying GLA different than the Auditors card!! The sketch and photos with labels and an explanation was already included in the report….will we now be swamped with these revisions?
            If I was using that home data and it’s sale price in a report as a comparable the error caused could be notable and the results would surly be misleading or at least not accurate. Garbage in garbage out?
            Next
            In our area the Auditor does not report finished or unfinished below grade. Realtors call a PAINTED block wall with no finish, no ceiling and a large throw rug FINISHED. Many people call a bathroom in the basement a full bath When all it is really a commode on the floor no privacy, a shower head, a flimsy curtain and a laundry tub!!
            Now we have been able to verify a lot of this through a couple of sources or simply support and defend our reporting or lack of reporting of them.
            Now FNMA wants us to compare apples to possible eggs and adjust. On top of that they want us to give a market reaction on a level that the market does not react to. Then they want us to grid it all on separate lines even if there is no adjustment. Can we say BUSY work?? and can we say more hours less pay?
            Now more yet in splits no one notes a basement on the fully below ground level in our area. In a four level split there is a fully below ground level typically 450 to 600 +/- sq ft. Then an at ground on at least 2 sides family and bedroom plus full bath on the walk out 2nd level sometimes a with a crawl space underneath, a main 3rd level slightly above (about 5 to 7 feet ) ground and finally a 4th level with bedrooms and another bath (typically). There is no way of knowing this construction with out interior inspection.
            Now one of the people on this Blog described a split as half of the walk out having a unfinished utility space which is typical for a 3 level split . Clearly though this was that persons first thought with out further information because it is what is familiar to them in a Split.
            So now how do we /are we able to adjust for full slab Vesa a partial basement and crawl or simply partial basement with slab without inspection to verify what we are adjusting for and (WAIT FOR IT ) GRID it with a MARKET REACTION??
            Are we really talking about accuracy here and MARKET reaction?
            FNMA HAD an added instruction on GLA it was as follows
            Fannie Mae goes on to direct “The appraiser may need to deviate from this approach if the style of the subject property or any of the comparables does not lend itself to such comparisons. For example, a property built into the side of a hill where the lower level is significantly out of ground, the interior finish is equal throughout the house, and the flow and function of the layout is accepted by the local market, may require the gross living area to include both levels.
            NOW THEY DECIDE IT’S WRONG AND NO LONGER APPLICABLE??
            This was the comment added in these homes.
            .” It is usual an customary in the subject area and through out the state to consider both levels in Bi level and all levels in split level construction in GLA other than the below ground level foundation area or crawl space.
            Whewwwww…
            On top of that resort lake front homes have homes with a fully functional level sometimes 90% out of ground with an A fame upper all out of ground level. ANSI measured 400 Sq FT 2 room and bath with finished basement with kitchen 1.1 baths and 4 other rooms !! Comp that and hope you can find another A frame sold in the past 5 years with in 50 miles. Really, here lake front homes priced over 400k are most often slab construction built on a slight grade with the on ground level being 900 to 1400 and the second story the same. Now since these lenders say PP SQ FT is of utmost importance they now have a say 900 sq foot home selling for 444.44 per sq ft next to a few 1600 sq ft ranches selling for 250.00 per sq foot!! Now what part is going to be MARKET reaction ? The market ( BUYERS AND SELLERS) are going to file grievances against us like NEVER before or they are going to want 444.44 per sq foot for their ranches now cause that other home next door just sold for that!
            We have to accept what Baggins is trying to explain !! AND EVEN THE LENDERS KNOW IS RIGHT…. ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL and the MARKET determines the “usual and customary” reaction in any area on what is GLA and what isn’t GLA if we are required to USE MARKET reaction adjustments.
            All of this has to be considered and remedied before we just start using a new gridded method
            I am so sorry for this long post, really not intended to be so when I started the response.

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            • Avatar Tom B says:

              If you flat out don’t have something, or a home ends up being a 0 GLA, then you just put GXX001- in the Additional Features field and rock on.

              FNMA will then monitor you and if they find out 90% of those codes come from Colorado then I’m sure something will change.

              I honestly don’t understand you PP SF and complaints being filed. If you get the value right who is going to care what your PP SF calculates to in the report.

              “We have to accept what Baggins is trying to explain !!”

              No we do not…. especially when I can sit here, use the data he has posted and write a report with those homes having basements and come to the same conclusion. So could several other people here. So could he and so could you for that matter.

              ANSI does not alter value. But like I said just GXX001- and wait for FNMA to realize they have a problem in Colorado.

              I totally get what you guys are presenting. I don’t have to accept it though. Especially after seeing listings, assessor data, etc.. No different than you guys not accepting things we are presenting.

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              • Avatar Chris says:

                Tom…Well said !!!

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              • Avatar BA says:

                TOM
                I am sorry I did not make myself clear. I said we have to accept what he is trying to tell us. HE is not complaining about the standardized method he’s complaining about reporting in a way that until April 1st was acceptable to FNMA FMAC and all the others in the money world. So it is a little troubling since his practice was accepted and caused no defaults or lender crashes why the same exception that existed 7 days ago in one particular style can not have the same age old exception. IT is a Market perception as well. I did not say we have to agree with him. I for one have never appraised in CO , not familiar with the area or the market so I do not have the competency to do anything in Appraising there.
                RIGHT.. ANSI does not alter value and we will all learn the work arounds for this but for now we need to be a little more understanding of our peers. JMO And when the NEXT MAJOR change happens with these board room wizards we will see how we feel about that then. Right now I FEEL the hybrid is a BAD IDEA but there’s a lot of appraisers who can not wait to get those assignments!. TOO bad the appraisers have to work harder and cheaper and longer until the lenders realize their latest idea or how they implement it is not so good after all.
                All simply an opinion.

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      Agreed, BA, agreed.

      Per ANSI FAQ:

      Q5. When common practice in the local market differs from the ANSI standard, can the appraiser modify the subject’s GLA to conform to local custom? No. The appraiser must measure and report the subject’s GLA following the ANSI standard.

      Right. What about the comps?

      Q12. Is the ANSI standard required for 2- to 4-unit dwellings?No. The ANSI standard does not apply to 2- to 4-unit dwellings.

      Um…… Why not? Either it’s a workable standard or it is not.

      Q14. The ANSI standard requires any area that is partially or wholly below grade to be counted as basement; what defines ‘partially’ below grade?A floor level is partially or wholly below grade if any portion of its walls is not entirely at or above ground level.

      Just ignore the ENTIRE STATE OF COLORADO where a universal standard is in place, and garden level is market recognized and assessor recognized and MLS recognized, and realty agent recognized, and market participant recognized, as qualifiable above grade living area space.

      Q15. Will appraiser adherence to the ANSI standard cause confusion when the subject GLA differs from other sources such as MLS or public record? GLA from appraisal reports is already often different from other sources. It is common practice to treat some finished areas separately from GLA due to low ceilings, inferior quality, below grade walls, or separation from the main living area. Many factors such as variability in definitions, methodologies, or precision of execution can exacerbate differences. The benefit of adherence to the ANSI standard is that it enables appraisers to explain how the GLA is derived in consistent, professional terms. This will result in more clarity for consumers of appraisal reports. It will also enable lenders, real estate agents, and other participants in the transaction to better anticipate appraisal outcomes, which can help reduce loan closing issues.

      Well the second part is just plainly false. It will confuse the hell out of everyone and nobody will know what the appraiser will do as their is no specific guidance for how to handle a bi or tri level in the comps set when the ENTIRE LOCAL MARKET already recognizes garden level as qualifiable AGLA space.

      Q16. How should appraisers account for rooms located in above-grade finished areas that do not qualify as GLA under the ANSI standard? While the ANSI standard is not definitive on this point, appraisers should include rooms located in above-grade finished non-GLA areas in the room counts (Total Rooms, Bedrooms, Bath(s)) in the Improvement section and in the Sales Comparison Approach grid of the appraisal report to comply with Uniform Appraisal Dataset requirements.

      Logical fault. To state that a space has zero attributable room counts is impossible to be true. This is demanding appraisers produce misleading reports and report in a ficticious manner. Rule of thumb for competent appraising; never use assumptions unless you have to, it’s always better to deal with TRANSPARENT VERIFIABLE DATA, to deal in facts. Also if there is a choice of which data to use, the data that can be verified with more than one source is probably the better data to qualify, then select and utilize. Also it’s just lazy programing and coding to not retool the UAD for this non negotiable ANSI mandate. It’s important to understand why this particular FAQ is presented; They want apples to apples on room counts, just not size expression. Who’s running the accounting and FNMA, Bernie Madoff? They want purposefully applied untruths and false statements? Exactly how does that with FAQ 15: This will result in more clarity for consumers of appraisal reports. (Show me one human being on this entire planet whom will have ‘more clarity’ when they read an appraisal with a basement line with 1,000 sq ft, and zero attributable room counts.)

      Q17. When the ANSI standard excludes finished areas, resulting in a smaller GLA, does this adversely affect the value of the property? No. The ANSI standard defines a transparent, professional approach to describing the subject, which gives appraisers a consistent starting point for the valuation analysis, but it says nothing about how appraisers conduct that analysis. Done correctly, adherence to the ANSI standard does not change the value of the propert

      This does however, butcher the net/gross adjustment indicators. So reviewers won’t even begin to understand if the comps selections were similar or dissimilar in nature. Nor will reviewers be adept enough to comprehend why the subject is apparently smaller than all other comparables because of falsified size reporting. The next FAQ seeks to answer this. We used to have a consistent method, because we’d be reporting the subject in the exact same manner as all comps were reported, no data manipulation or work arounds were necessary. Not anymore. Check and check, but why?

      Q18. The GLA of comparables available to appraisers may not be based on the ANSI standard. How should appraisers manage this issue?GLA found in local MLS systems and assessor records may not be ANSI standard compliant. The appraiser may not know what methods real estate agents or assessors use to ascertain GLA. Appraisers already deal with this uncertainty routinely, regardless of what GLA method the appraiser uses for the subject property. Through research and knowledge of the local market, appraisers determine if the GLA of the comparable should be adjusted relative to the subject. Appraisers will continue to perform this analysis like they have always needed to do.

      But we do know what methods the assessors and agents have used to ascertain GLA, AGLA, or any combination theirin. THE GARDEN LEVEL IS COUNTED AS ABOVE GRADE AREA THROUGH MOST OF THE STATE OF COLORADO. We already have a uniform standard in place so the question is moot. Then; ‘adjust the gla relative to the subject’. Um….. Why? When we have clear straight forward factual data we know is consistent and reliable, why would the appraiser purposefully manipulate the data then need to ‘adjust back relative’. Whomever wrote this deals with too much appraisal theory and not enough real world valuation tasks. Relative to the subject? You mean in the truthful scenario where all garden level is counted as above grade space? That is exactly what is relative to the subject, THE FACT that all garden level is included in above grade spaces in the state of Colorado. There is nothing relative about it, because we are dealing in verifiable facts and reliable data reporting with redundant data verification capability. The only person whom would be doing something different would be the appraiser. You don’t win trust or prove a high degree of professionalism by running the wrong direction on the field.

      Q19. How should appraisers value finished areas that the ANSI standard does not include in GLA, such as where the ceiling height is less than 7 feet?

      Oh yeah, because way way way somewhere out East in this country, the ANSI work group had a little meeting with a few dozen appraiser advisors and although the ANSI group straight up ignored and dinied the vast majority of appraiser consultant suggestions, that was one of the things they jotted down as being subjective, the ceiling height thing.

      Question, did a single person whom pushed this through FNMA have any experience in the state of Colorado?

      Furthermore, why in the hell is FNMA consulting with appraisal management companies about appraisal process? These amc companies are not staffed by appraisers! These are telecom companies.

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  101. Avatar Patrick Abandy says:

    How do you apply ANSI on 2055 appraisal? Please help.

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    • Avatar Tom B says:

      The ANSI standard we apply is a standard method to measure and classify Square Footage.

      You don’t measure a 2055 driveby. So IF you want to be ANSI compliant you could use assessor data and the disclosure below. That disclosure makes you ANSI compliant.

      When you can’t get to dwelling and can’t trust plans, etc.. So you use the best info you have.

      “Finished square footage calculations for this house were made based on estimated dimensions only and may include unfinished areas, or openings in floors not associated with stairs, or openings in floors exceeding the area of associated stairs.”

      You could also probably get by with disclosure #2 and state you used Assessor records. Either one makes you ANSI compliant.

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    • Avatar Seneca says:

      Hamp Thomas says ANSI does not apply to comps, 2055 or Desktops

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      • Avatar Tom B says:

        That may be but he would reconsider 4.6 when is the standard and not the annex, he would see that it certainly covers a 2055 driveby situation. Provided you include a disclosure similar to #3.

        Those disclosures make you ANSI compliant.

        Item 4 Statement of Finished Square Footage.

        “Failure to provide the declarations listed below – where applicable – voids any claim of adherence to this standard.”

        Item 4.6 — direct measurement not possible, access to interior not possible. Nature of terrain, obstacles preclude direct measurement. Building dimensions developed through some means other than direct measurement or plans can be susceptible to inaccuracy.

        All of those descriptions apply to a 2055. You still have to research and report GLA and your sources on the form. In doing so you can be within ANSI standard with the proper declaration. Regardless if FNMA cares or not.

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        • Avatar Seneca says:

          So you do it as you always have. Find the best sources for sq ft and use it. State you extraordinary assumptions. Nothing different. Not sure what you are getting at.

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          • Avatar Tom B says:

            The person above asked how does ANSI come into play with a 2055.

            I’m not getting at anything other than to answer his question. You can be ANSI compliant easily but ONLY if you include a declaration as to how you got your GLA etc..

            I have not read nor heard that FNMA does not require ANSI for 2055s. Perhaps I missed it. But I have watched Hamps videos, taken the classes, and am re-listening to his webinar from the other day.

            That is using the standard and will easily work for a 2055.

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  102. Baggins Baggins says:

    Exactly right Mr Kues. Appraisers are not perfect and we use a process of best estimates to arrive at a best of ability opinion. Which is why it is important to have the net/gross indicators present. Because from a 0%/0% pre adjusted items application to the appraisal grid (starting point), after that point we can have our finger on the pulse to know if we’re applying adjustments in a reasonable manner by constantly reviewing the net/gross indicators. Something that will not happen if we have to do something like add back something purposefully subtracted even though all comps have basically the same market value (false starting point). A bi vs a 2, starting at 0%/50%, even though that should be 0%0% (presuming exact size matches). A bi vs a tri, something like 25% gross start even though both units have matching space recognized by the market. Even manipulating a set of tri levels with basements, somehow discrediting their garden levels. Paired sales analysis can be done within the appraisal grid itself.

    Here is another example. Three tri levels with unfinished basements. Image attached. That means 4 total levels in these houses. MLS short blocky type view image attached. All garden levels are market recognized and are contained in the ‘above grade finished’ count and are included in the ‘PSF above grade’ lines in the MLS listings.

    3x zillow links, in order.
    https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/11734-Steele-St-Thornton-CO-80233/12958619_zpid/
    https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/5064-E-112th-Ct-Thornton-CO-80233/13003535_zpid/
    https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/11240-Madison-Ct-Thornton-CO-80233/12960047_zpid/?

    The second one on 5064, don’t let your eyes deceive you, it looks like a 2 story but note the window on the back and side, it’s lower near the earth, that is sunk in garden level. It’s all finished area and is part of the market recognized above grade square foot area, counted in the various ppsf metrics. This particular set of tri’s I sought out because in this certain size range, we can have a lot of tri’s w/ basements. But according to ANSI, those now have two distinctly different basement areas. The garden vs bas track at a different price basis, that’s obvious in the ppsf metrics. No appraiser defense is necessary and there is no assumptive basis anyone can challenge the appraiser on. That is just the way it is. If the appraiser steps in and claims that garden is part of the crummy basement below, watch out. That would be one incompetent appraiser.

    Example 3 is another pickle. There is a sketch included in the listing but it does not appear very reliable. The sketch is clearly larger than county records. Also the list agent just copied county for listed size and did not use that size statement on the sketch for his listing record. Also the sketch omits the basement. That may be a sketch which shows how use of ansi counting stairs brings a size number which is higher than county stated, causing a logical need to subtract stairs out for apples to apples comparisons as that may be how they counted size on these homes initially. It’s a constant challenge having to figure out if I need to cut out stairs or not, otherwise my subject can have an extra hundred or so sq ft compared to it’s model matching counter parts. Also all three of these units, none have their garden level cut out or parsed into anything other than the above grade square foot line by the assessor. Also adams county does not post sketches online alongside the assessment records and although I have not tried to get one in many years, they never used to let you call up to get one for free either. So it is impossible to find garden level size parsing. Therefore if subject was stated ‘ansi compliant’ in the grid, we’d have a false starting point because subject would instantly need adjusted up roughly a quarter to a third for having lost qualifiable above grade living area, which would need to be moved elsewhere. Appraisers here state move that to the basement. But what about the actual basement needing a different adjustment basis? Even if we could scoot around that and co mingle garden and actual basement in the basement lines we’d still be presenting misleading data and false size indicators by showing in the appraisal grid we’ve comped a smaller subject vs 3x larger comps. It makes no sense and would be a ficticious reporting strategy to be ANSI compliant if dealing with a bi or tri level in CO as a subject. Screws up the comps good too although some assessors do parse garden so with a lot more effort it could be done with a series of line items and much longer explanatory addenda.

    https://gisapp.adcogov.org/quicksearch/
    (just pop in the first numbers of the address, select from the list, easy to use assessors call ups.)

    You can check their assessors property records here. Keep in mind nearly all MLS listing is auto imported from assessors data. Adams county always includes garden level in the above grade room credit, so if you see basement that is a true basement and is not garden level. The tries have such varied designs and basements were never builder finished, but garden was always builder finished. Tri’s w/ basements, that’s almost always utility unfinished and sump pit & pump if they needed that, built like a staggered 4 level where a basement is often under the mid level and although it’s hard to see in a listing photo, there is a small basement window well under the mid level often on the front. The alternative design if no bas present would be mid level on slab or over crawl but the lower would still be qualifiable agla space garden level.

    Here are the ppsf metrics for all three of these. I straight copied this data from their MLS listings. If somehow that garden is scooted into basement line it’s going to be a mess. The metrics are comprehensive as is.
    11734 Steele. / Building Area Total (SqFt Total):1,700Living Area (SqFt Finished):1,700Above Grade Finished Area:1,264Below Grade Total Area:436Below Grade Finished Area:436Below Grade Unfinished Area:0PSF Total:$250PSF Finished:$250PSF Above Grade:$336

    5064 E 112th ct / Building Area Total (SqFt Total):1,792Living Area (SqFt Finished):1,280Above Grade Finished Area:1,280Below Grade Total Area:512Below Grade Finished Area:0Below Grade Unfinished Area:512PSF Total:$237PSF Finished:$332PSF Above Grade:$332

    11240 Madison / Building Area Total (SqFt Total):1,700Living Area (SqFt Finished):1,264Above Grade Finished Area:1,264Below Grade Total Area:436Below Grade Finished Area:0Below Grade Unfinished Area:436PSF Total:$253PSF Finished:$340PSF Above Grade:$340

    Other terminology notes: Garden level; qualifiable agla space. AGLA: above grade living area. GLA: gross living area (meaning total of all basement, and qualifiable agla) Below Grade (as recognized in CO assessors & MLS): True basement, does not include garden level.

    With ANSI standards, Colorado loses a lot. FNMA should immediately add bi level and tri level homes to the allowable exception list to opt out of the ANSI standard.

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  103. Baggins Baggins says:

    Thank you Tom. Yes I get that. One thing I’ve learned from this specific blog, is that around this country it is not customary to count garden levels as above grade space. I don’t know, I’ve always taken that for granted. We’re pretty stunned at the concept of disqualifying garden away from agla spaces here in Colorado. It’s a rather foreign concept. Garden levels are very common in Colorado, they’re always finished, never unfinished in maintained houses, and are always reported by assessors and realty agents as being above grade spaces.

    Take my examples below I posted today where the assessor does not break down the levels and due to design variances those tri levels may have substantial variance in what is attributable to the bottom garden level or not. One even had such a big mid level, it was an a-typical rare example with a really large true basement under that mid level. (4 total levels each) You don’t have to dive into them but more examples, fyi. Three tri levels all with garden levels as the third, and a fourth level which is true basement fully below ground not garden, usually not finished but sometimes finished by individual owners at a later date. Assessor reports only all above grade (which includes garden), and true basement, no other per level reporting. Simple straight forward, reliable standards of reporting are already in place here in Colorado.

    In these scenarios if ANSI compliant my report will read like I’ll miss size bracketing even though I have sized bracketed. I’ll have two different adjustment basis in the basement line, which may then cause the need for the garden level to be scooted off the auto size grid lines entirely to one of the lowest 3 free lines. No matter how I do it I’d be guessing at comps or manipulating my subject but not my comps, missing bracketing, it’s a problem no matter how you approach. It is because the data is already uniform to begin with! Any manipulation after that point is nonsensical. Just non stop alerts, false high net/gross indicators. That’s just not good appraisal methodology to manipulate the subject data for the sake of consistency, especially when it would not be possible to get an accurate figure on the garden level space for comps, and the data was consistent in the first place.

    Just because our uniform reported data is not consistent to ANSI is irrelevant, most of us have never even heard of the ANSI group until a month or two ago. They do not have influence or sway around here in the real property industry, they never used to until FNMA did them this special insider favor and granted them special privileges. Even if I could get that garden level exact size which some counties offer, it’s still not a good method to break the garden level apart because some gardens are small spaces others can be very sizeable, but the market does not distinguish, it’s all about the total space. To run that on two lines above and basement, would just be a confusing approach in the grid where adjusts are taken then given back (juggling adjusts), which drive up gross but not net. It’s a nonsensical adjustment, to adjust something the market does not recognize as needing an adjustment or driving any tangible market reaction difference. This is a violation of the very core principals of valuation comparison, honest transparent comparisons with the intention of finding more similarity rather than less. Why falsely indicate a dissimilarity when no dissimilarity actually exists in the first place? They can’t just walk up here into colorado like the champ wearing a crown and smack us all down, tell this entire state we’re doing it wrong and have to comply with their methods instead. Who do these people think they are? The ANSI group and their puppets at Fannie are not as smart as they presume themselves to be either. I’ll illustrate that below.

    That is not what net/gross is supposed to be there for. As automation has taken hold too many appraisers have become reliant on extraction and automatic tools. Net gross expression is a vital tool for manual method and thoughtful logical approach appraisal development, and competent review services. You never adjust out then adjust the same thing right back in if you don’t have to because that creates a false gross adjustment amount. Net/Gross is the primary most important number set in an entire appraisal report. Never manipulate that falsely. It is the ultimate test and indicator of reliable or faulty appraisal development. Net/gross is king, not the final value opinion or any other number.

    The way it’s supposed to work is the net adjustment indicator is the indicator of total meaningful difference. Net is the material differences, an expression of the actual true volume of difference on the balance, all told. If your net adjusts are very high, and far apart, it may be something like comparing a gem against a dog terd, could the appraiser have found better comps? A high net is very disconcerting and must be explained away or find better comps.

    The gross is the indicator of actual similarity or dissimilarity of type. So even though a high gross adjust indicator amount may be present, that gross adjust climbing upward indicates the appraiser had to mix and match comps or pick comps which were notably varied in terms of size or difference somehow, usually due to limited comps scenario because if you have good fairly equivalent comps, gross moves right alongside net pretty closely and gross stays low. It can be acceptable to have a high gross, as long as you have a low net, because that tells the appraiser he’s somehow found a fair balance. That is often from a difficult comping scenario, comps scarcity, etc.

    You want low net and you want low gross. If you can’t find good quality matching, you end up with a net that goes up, gross will stay close to net. If you can’t find similar structure or space, have to compare large to small, etc, you end up with high net and really high gross. It’s just what happens when there are no comps and you have to use what is available, higher net/gross. If you’re lucky you’ll make it work and have low net but high gross. That tells the reader; mix and match comps, but appraiser proved a reliable market value despite the challenges. If you have high net and high gross, missed the balance and have to use the weighted comps theory and logical reconciliation, perhaps rely on cost or income because reliable market indicators are not there.

    When you’re comparing a set of bi levels, tri levels, and maybe a two story, one expects the bi vs tri or bi vs bi to all have low gross adjustment indicators which does not move very far from the net indicator. Because by type and size, these are very similar houses. The low gross adjustment indicator is the proof point which the appraiser can use to deflect liability and defend his work, to prove that we’ve selected meaningful comparables which are very similar. As size is one of the most substantial adjustment factors, low gross often rides along with good matching size comping selections. And if they’re all reasonably similar quality and material wise, you’ll have a low net indicator too because fewer adjustments would be applied. Low net. Low gross. High confidence in the appraiser. Appraiser can have high confidence in his adjusted value indicators and final averaged reconciliation too. No weighting or preference for one comp or the other is even necessary. Finger on the pulse. Doing it right. Competent selections. Winning.

    To purposefully jump the gross adjustment by taking then giving back, one would purposefully skew a very important proof point and defensive point in their own work. Aka butchering the gross indicator before any truthful adjustments are even applied. It makes no sense. Forensic review, portfolio, others, they can all utilize automatic review tools and one of the things they’ll look for is net/gross elevated. One could scour thousands of reports and by way of automation pick out the worst most poorly developed and/or most challenging appraisal scenario appraisal reports, simply by looking at net/gross alone. Although the dreaded 15%/25% limitation is released, it’s spirit still haunts the hallways. And rightfully so, that is the most important indication of quality development contained within an appraisal report. Net gross is the cumulation of the entirety of the appraisers efforts in grid filling.

    A good way to stay under the radar in this industry is to be very careful in picking comps and developing comprehensive market research packets to select comps from. By narrowing down the research, sales which are going to be better matches against the subject comes forth, ideally a set of model matches. If they’re all same quality and same size, you end up with very low net and very low gross. And you can achieve that with a set of tri’s two’s bi’s or even ranches, cross comping, etc. My experience has been ranch is a category to itself in terms of seeking best matches, I do parse ranches out on their own if I’m able and there is enough market data to work with. But bi’s, tri’s, completely fully interchangeable without much ado. Not anymore!

    This is what the Fannie people and amc people don’t get, probably the ANSI people too. They’re lost in the automation and theory of it all, but they’ve never actually done the work. They’ve never actually filled the appraisal grid all day manually. They can’t do this job outside of the digital realm, developing competent valuations with pen paper and a quarterly MLS book. Appraisers whom rely on comps sharing, adjust extraction, everybody new whom came after automation has been utilized, they don’t get it either. I like to say if you can’t do it on a paper with a pen, you don’t really understand what is happening.
    Like there is this one appraiser around here whom fills 12 comps every time. He scoots the low net/gross to the front and leaves the rest in there. Adjusted value indicators can be a hundred thousand apart. He uses automation to bring in too many, applies automatic adjust method with too much focus on gla from mass data extraction, and then assumes he’s got the best comps in the 1-3 & 4-6 slots because those have lower net/gross. But this yahoo leaves the other 6 in there for two additional grid pages, and those have high net gross and adjusted indicators far apart. He’s proving incompetency without being aware of it and clients are stunned by his brave use of that many comps. He gets more work even though he’s clearly doing it wrong. If he took the time to adjust carefully and pick comps which are truly better quality and size matches, he’d always have lower net/gross, better streamlined adjusted value indicators, and there would be no confusion or need for more than 6 comps on two pages. He demonstrates to me his total ignorance of the net/gross indicator and it’s importance. He’s also in turn proving he’s not spending enough time looking at comps individually and adjusting fine details competently. He’s one of those 4 appraisals a day type of appraisers.

    The FNMA forms were developed a generation or two ago right? They were the product of careful design and work groups where appraisers and valuation specialists needed a variety of cross reference points to affirm or indicate a great many things about competent appraisal development. Bear in mind most of that came pre automation days. Net/gross is there because it is a simple mathematical measurement of the total volume of adjustments which expresses two important things; balanced similarity (net), and total difference (gross). To purposefully jump that number for matching model or homes which compete laterally on the market, that is not inconsequential, it is everything, the whole enchilada of valuation theory out the window. If we can’t present and read net/gross honestly, there is no need for manual methods or human appraisers anymore.

    Then we’re back to local standards. These local standards were developed over several generations, sometimes hundreds of years if out east but often a hundred or less out west as the pioneers faced many challenges and a long road before affirming statehood and carving out their own uniform approaches to due process. Just because it’s one way over there does not mean that specific method is applicable elsewhere. And that is a great strength in American housing, the high variety of approaches. It’s what keeps local local and stops carpetbaggers and tycoons from exploiting markets far away. In their wisdom many often purposefully engaged in variety reporting methods and for a variety of good reasons. Out East this ceiling thing, must be due to weather and temps I suppose, make good use out of a limited space. Cape cods or whatever. Coastal designs. Out here out west, sloping challenges, expanding soils, desert climate conditions followed by wild temperature swings that can crack a saturated foundation in a single day. Different design challenges and different solutions. That’s called smart building concepts. There was good reason for the build differences and recognition of their design and space feature differences. We did it our way and it still works to this day.

    Enter the know it alls from washington or whever this is coming from. Charging in like a bull in a china shop DEMANDING we all do it their way or else! It’s no coincidence there is money and special interests involved. To disrespect our local customs and insist we do it their way… Fighting posture. Threatening appraisers whom respect local traditions with denial of their ability to push reports through FNMA, plainly disrespectful behavior.

    Q7. Can appraisers use the exception code to voluntarily opt out of compliance with the ANSI standard? No
    Says who!!! Who specifically made that statement or decided that for all of us, for our entire state? I want names because I want heads. Step up and take responsibility whomever you are. Telling me I don’t know what I’m doing and I have to change or else, despite our entire state not doing it that way. Even if I complied I’d lose the primary defensible point I’ve always relied on; competent net/gross indicators. I’d violate many uspap ethical principals on promoting trust in the appraisal profession. I’d confuse agents buyers sellers alike and paint a target on my own back. Perhaps that is what FNMA really wants, all the human appraisers gone.

    Here is an interesting logic question. We’ve learned there are high variances for how these bi and tri level homes are built and finished around this country. In some areas people mention bi’s usually function as raised ranches, no fin on the bas side. I can see where the confusion comes from now. Our terminology may be similar, but the local market recognition of that terminology can be quite different. Have you ever seen a raised ranch with a second basement? How can a tri level w/ a basement become a two level split with two different basement areas? How does one build a home with two basements? This word smithing will not abide. Leave us alone ANSI, get out of our business, we don’t need you in Colorado. ANSI is not welcome here. ANSI GET OUT. ANSI GO AWAY. I’m not going to be made a fool on my own front porch.

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    • Avatar BA says:

      Baggins,

      Imagine all the Garden homes/flats in New York. Now they will have no GLA!! Wonder how FNMA will deal with these wealthy people screaming when that happens.

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  104. Avatar BA says:

    FNMA changes entirely when they realize they are making up procedures/stipulation that cannot apply in all situations in EVERY market at all times!! It just takes them years to get to the conclusion
    “THAT DOES NOT WORK”…

    Markets differ from state to state, urban to rural, area to area county to county style, condition and even seasons as ALL Appraisers already know and adjust to as and when required. No one shoe fits all. No rule or guideline or method can apply in any field that is not homogeneous. With so many variables you would think these Entities would realize they need a lot of research and a lot of field work to be able to implement new ideas into a process.

    Not that progress is not appreciated and needed, Lord knows I was glad no more pasting photos and no more 1 hour photo pick ups, no more sending reports over night!! I was glad I did not have to visit the Court houses of small rural towns and thumb through property cards or look at the flood map cards or , well you know what I mean here. But when things get changed that do no improve quality, reliability or work file or CONSUMER protection then I have to say why?

    It seems everyone here and many or most that are not here were already using uniform measurements. In the 1000’s of hours of education in the dozens of classes and all the Appraisers in them I have never known any of them to measure any differently than what we are talking about right here. So I have to ask “is it true” were a lot of appraisers using their own method of measuring that was so different than the rest of us? If so why would the lenders continue to send them work? How did these people pass the tests required to get licensed? HMMM . I don know if I can swallow this story now. JMO
    Today I used the ANSI method as always and the Auditors card was 6 inches less on the front wall. I realized the new vinyl siding corner mold added 3 inches at the corner of each end of the wall. Without the molding the auditor’s card was accurate and matched my hand measurements to the inch. So rounding made it 10 inches more than the Card and 10 inches more than it really was. So much for accuracy and uniformity.

    Any way here is the last major change FNMA decided no longer worked and forced appraisers to use inferior comparable to what was a much better one.

    Fannie Mae recently made some important changes to its policies on comparable sales and gross adjustment guidelines. Their newly launched Collateral Underwriter (CU) took effect on January 26 2020. It’s important to be aware that the rules of thumb many appraisers are accustomed to using for adjustments may no longer apply for appraisals on Fannie Mae loans. For one thing, Fannie Mae has eliminated the 15% net and 25% gross adjustment guidelines.

    According to the agency, it will no longer have specific limitations or guidelines associated with net or gross adjustments. “The appraiser’s adjustments must reflect the market’s reaction (that is, market based adjustments) to the difference in the properties [of chosen comparables],” according to Fannie Mae. That means that appraisers shouldn’t use a $20 per square foot adjustment for the difference in the gross living area based on a rule-of-thumb when market analysis indicates the adjustment should be $100 per square foot.

    Instead, Fannie Mae expects appraisers to analyze the market for competitive properties and provide appropriate market based adjustments “without regard to arbitrary limits on the size of the adjustment.” In other words, appraisers will no longer be constrained by gross adjustment limits.

    This is important to keep in mind Appraisers who always use a $20 per square foot adjustment will likely find their appraisals are flagged by Fannie Mae.

    The agency also revised its policy on the age of comparable sales selected by appraisers. Appraisers no longer need to provide an explanation when using a comparable sale that is greater than six months old. “In some instances it may be appropriate to use older sales with proper time adjustments rather than a dissimilar more recent sale,” according to Fannie Mae.

    So, comps that have closed within the last 12 months will now be considered by Fannie Mae. And in certain cases—such as on subject properties located in rural areas—it may not be possible to find three comps that sold in the last 12 months. In those cases, appraisers may use older comps as long as an explanation is provided, Fannie Mae clarifies. SO ALL OF THIS TIME WE BROKE OUR NECKS TO COMPLY with something they now understand can not ALWAYS WORK RELIABLY!!!

    FNMA mis-spells comparable in all of their writings so how can they tell us how to do our jobs?

    Just saying LOL

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      Very well informed commentary. You really know the inside and out’s BA. Appreciated.

      Anyone have follow up on the speculation/ rumors supposedly out there that FNMA was going to pull back on the ANSI mandate? I mean NAR even sent an objection letter. In this instance the appraisers did have an influential supportive group.

      For the supposed sketching variance, think of the possibilities. A faulty digital device, an obstruction to the laser which perhaps the appraiser did not recognize like a lamp or something, the software or hardware settings with digital measuring devices, calibration. Then you’ve also got the contractor methods to consider for adding or swapping siding. Like stairs in our industry, contentious, there is also an ongoing argument among contractors which will never end; to wrap new siding over existing siding, or to never do that and always pull the siding off first instead. There was a bi level up the street which wrapped over and they used something like a half foot to a foot wide styrofoam board panel deal right over the old siding, so now the windows are inset that much, it’s noticeable. Geesh, do I measure this off the brick which is 2 inches out or the wood paneling? Ideally you want to grab a foundation edge but the tape does not always hold. Tape slack, old stretched vinyl 100 ft tapes is something most appraisers dealt with at one point or another. The CG guy whom measured my house once used the old wheel and clicker deal meant for measuring ground distances, ran that right around the side and swore it was the most reliable method, but it took skill, he had to count the clicks for every rotation. Then you’ve got the do not have to be licensed to ‘inspect’ which rolled around for appraisers again so many years back. I really enjoyed that window where I could proclaim; only a licensed appraiser is authorized to complete this task. And in the future we’ll all get to speculate and cut jokes about how the pizza delivery uber driver or whomever is running ‘third party inspections’ as a side gig may have botched it up. The possibilities are limitless, which is why we have the redundant verification of qualified data guideline. Apples to apples. If lenders would slow it down for each and every instance of ‘substantial measurement variance’, they could always order free county services and have a government assessor run out there for size measurements too, I believe that’s a free service for home owners. But then they’d lose jurisdiction because FNMA can’t boss government assessors around like they can independent 1099’s. But it irks me that we’ll go through all this effort to identify instances of faulty size data but nobody even follows up to correct the assessment record. Either they believe the appraiser on this matter or do not. If there is a valid concern about reported assessed size, why doesn’t FNMA have a policy directed towards lenders and/or amc’s to assist the home owner and get that straightened out? Time is money, for everyone except the appraiser, let the next appraiser sort out the same ridiculous data challenge when they refi again 6 months later and keep all previous solutions and data secret from the next appraiser.

      We’ve discovered here, there is a lot of static noise and confusion about this issue, due to varying building trends and the way local jurisdictions report and record size. My biggest take away from this enriching thread was that CO has a different standard for counting garden level than most other locations. I just took it for granted garden level was not basement but apparently that’s a somewhat unique situation for our state(s). If anyone else has meaningful information on that point, how many states do count garden as above grade, vs do not. I suppose it’s a mountain thing. All the conversation on ceiling height is foreign language, I’ve only ran into ceiling height questions once, perhaps twice. And the stairs… I’d rather fall down a flight of stairs than argue about the nuances of counting stairs anymore. LOL. Thank you all so much for the conversation and clarification here.

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      • Avatar Seneca says:

        I think you have been measuring split-levels and bi-levels wrong. In my experience the split-level homes you show in the photos will have unfinished areas in the lower level. Typically a utility room that contains HW tank, HVAC and the laundry. So when you count the lower level finished are in the GLA where does the unfinished portions of the lower level basement get value? That why I have always extracted out the lower level as a basement. It all gets value, just on a different line.
        As I stated before in this blog,
        For a Bi-level comp.
        MLS list sq ft as 1340sf.
        County shows the foot print as 32×28 bi-level = 896sf for the above grade level.
        Extract out the 896sf from 1340sf = 444 sq ft of finished area in the basement.
        I never counted the lower level in a bi or split level in the GLA. More times than not it would have unfinished area that would go uncounted.

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        • Baggins Baggins says:

          You should rephrase that; You think the entire state of colorado have been measuring bi’s and tri’s wrong. Again; as the assessors, builders, realty agents, and appraisers all do positively count the garden level as above grade areas. Because that area is always finished and it’s a great space to live in, preferable to many due to weather and climate factors here.

          Specifically I had posted two different sets of properties. The first round of banter contained four examples, one from another poster, three more from me. That demonstrated the nature of bi levels in three different counties, how the lower level is always finished, less utility room. Also detailing the varied nature of assessment reporting, some assessors positively do not parse the garden level into ‘basement’. (more on that in a second.) The second set were tri levels with basements, meaning four levels. Yes that lowest level under the mid section is true basement, window well and everything, random factor if anyone had ever finished that area at a later date. Yet all of the half way below ground garden level areas are always finished. That can be verified in the listing photos and I took time to detail several important observation points for those houses. The second example set were all from Adams county where the garden levels are noted in above grade, all the realty agents enter with that figure. Adams has only above grade and basement, they don’t even recognize garden level as it’s own reporting line.

          Again, experience and anecdotal observations in one market setting does not equate to a similar or uniform approach in other market settings. Builders always furnished the lower garden level as finished area in Colorado, less a utility area. As detailed above, it’s because of the climate, maximizing space, and when most of those bi’s and tri’s were built circa 1970 was when they were being built prolifically it must have been difficult to sell in Colorado and although we were growing, growth was no where near the pace of other states. Builders if they did furnish the splits and bi’s w/ unfinished garden levels in other locations, they must have turned to a different standard of finishing here in Colorado, because the garden level is always finished space in Colorado.

          For the utility room, yeah those can be present and often are. But also that is usable space and this type of single family housing stock is common in suburbia areas where updating and remodeling is also common. Due to age factors most of the 70’s stock and even 80’s & 90’s has seen some sort of updating. Given recent market growth which is truly exponential since the housing crash recovery, there has been additional market incentive for more thorough updating and remodeling. Investor fix and resellers have turned our housing stock over one at a time, constantly improving units in great quantity, always busy. It is now rare to run across dated units.

          One of the constant improvement approaches is to utilize large utility room spaces if they were present. That space has often been transformed into a nicely finished laundry type area, turned into another bed or extension to living area, or has been in some way downsized into a smaller utility area. Also there is the apples to apples consideration where knowing that space exists, but observing comparable examples all stating the entirety of the lower level in their listed space entries as finished space, we can make reasonable and reliable assumptions there may be some small volume of unfinished space. If it really is hard to tell, which is why I often will say 90% finished or 95% finished for all comps and my subject, even if the listing agents state 100% finished. Over time agents have read enough reports of appraisers taking this approach and even though assessor will state 100% fin, the agents will sort of get ahead of that and list 90% or 95% finished for the lower garden level.

          The question remains; what is more important; adhering to local market standards or some rigid non flexible approach which is adhered to elsewhere but not your market? I would not tell you that you’re doing it wrong, if there was proof those split levels treated garden levels like basements, and they were rarely finished. If the garden can be positively proved to track at a lower value basis. We would expect the same respect here, given our different market factors where garden is always finished and always tracks the same as above grade finished spaces.

          If anyone has a problem with the way we report housing size in Colorado, feel free to call the Colorado NAR, every single head assessor for our 64 different counties, our 8 different MLS groups, and DORA, the division or regulatory agencies or our state.

          I’m not making this up to argue on blogs. It’s a fact. In the largest MLS district in Colorado, where RE Colorado MLS operates using the Corelogic Matrix MLS system, accompanied by Realist systems, and data shares with 2 or 3 other MLS groups and new construction listing services, GARDEN LEVEL IS COUNTED AS ABOVE GRADE SPACE.

          As noted above, this is what the confusion is about and apparent lack of cohesive understanding in appraisers communications. Obviously accentuated by the dictatorial FNMA whom thinks they can and should over ride our local customs to grant special privileges to the ANSI group. ANSI group is tied into major builders and builders compete tooth and nail here in CO right now. Looks like a special favor to me.

          Just think of the market competition here in Colorado. If you’re not aware, buyers compete by 2 dozen for each listing, sometimes more. Sellers list and fetch within hours, sometimes days. They get 10 contracts in the first day and there are lines for showings. New construction outlets presell units and have waiting lists months out sometimes. Land for sale is common where it’s still available, asking prices continue to rise. Previously defunct housing and industry areas are all getting scraped and rebuilt, as builders race to furnish housing units as this state swells to accommodate more than a million new people, possibly two million. (nobody knows for sure how many people are actually in Denver now.) Zoning coding changes rapidly in some areas.

          ANSI should go tell eskimo’s how to build igloos or something. We’ve got our own system of building methods and space recognition down here in Colorado and it works well. The fallacy of the idea that a little tiny teeny weenie particularly small body of like 15 people on some ANSI work group and another 15 ‘consultants’ whom are all volunteers from one small corner of this country, only experienced in their markets, being able to set a workable uniform standard for the well over 3,000 counties in this entire country. That’s straight up absurd and demonstrative of severely over blown hubris and ego. ANSI group is not that important and FNMA does not have jurisdiction over anyone or any business except on a voluntary agreement basis.

          Nobody can have that much experience in all those markets, not that small of a body at least. Which is why we are supposed to have ‘democratic process’ in this country. You know, where we get a say on the matter and are not led by dictatorial decree but rather have influence in our own bureaucratic approaches, due process, rule making, legislative authority, jurisdiction. Oh who needs all that liberty, freedom, fair representation anymore in 2022? It’s a new world order as we race to global standards. Be careful what you wish for. ANSI group and their puppets at FNMA have really put the pie on their own faces this time, stepped on a rake, slipped on the banana.

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          • Avatar Chris says:

            Baggins….Why are still giving yourself a heart attack, Why are you are making a mole hill into a mountain? The appraisal Gods have spoken, they want all appraisers using just another American Standard. Frankly, the definition of what is below grade is not up to you, its not up to realtors, its not up to assessors. Its not up to lenders. This below grade area has been around for more than a decade or more. 20 years ago, a company from believe it or not was from Colorado, told me to re write a bi-level with the lower below grade as basement area, I told them I would have to rewrite the entire report because I had to use some split levels as 2 comps. Our assessors and realtors don’t do this below grade area either, Ya, its a pain in the ass, But I am actual amazed that you haven’t been called out on this by now by your lenders…..You simply have not been following the definition of what “below” grade is all these years in regards to the appraisal definition of what has to be considered to be reported as below grade in our reports. Moving to the ANSI system of measuring doesn’t seem to be your real problem. More like being told what to do and some Kobal type conspiracy rhetoric of a new word order taking our fredums away. Again, I say to you I considered you one of the most intelligent appraisers on this site. My advise, I think you are watching to much far right wing media.

            For example…..Which is why we are supposed to have ‘democratic process’ in this country. You know, where we get a say on the matter and are not led by dictatorial decree but rather have influence in our own bureaucratic approaches, due process, rule making, legislative authority, jurisdiction. Oh who needs all that liberty, freedom, fair representation anymore in 2022? It’s a new world order as we race to global standards. Be careful what you wish for. ANSI group and their puppets at FNMA have really put the pie on their own faces this time, stepped on a rake, slipped on the banana.

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          • Avatar Tom B says:

            “You should rephrase that; You think the entire state of colorado have been measuring bi’s and tri’s wrong. Again; as the assessors, builders, realty agents, and appraisers all do positively count the garden level as above grade areas. Because that area is always finished and it’s a great space to live in, preferable to many due to weather and climate factors here.”

            Well not everyone in Colorado…

            https://www.historycolorado.org/bi-level

            “The Bi-Level came into popularity in the early 1960s as a variation of the ranch type. The raised or garden level basement makes the lower level more livable by allowing the lower windows to be larger and above grade.”

            There is that pesky word “basement”

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            • Baggins Baggins says:

              Tom, that’s interesting. Never reviewed that site before.

              Let’s look at the split level example too.

              https://www.historycolorado.org/split-level

              No mention of a basement, curious.

              Conflicting guidance. Conflicting definitions.

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              • Avatar Tom B says:

                Not conflicting at all….. they used the term “partially below grade”

                Like the URAR form … Below grade room count and square footage.

                ” a noisy living and service area on the partially below grade level (represented by a family room and often a garage)”

                Another thing about Tri-Level vs Bi-Level. As mentioned the Bi-Level was designed off raising a ranch straight up to get some light into the basement.

                On the other hand the Tri-Level was designed for a side sloping lot. If you look at the picture in your link the one on the right looks to be fully above ground because the lot slopes just the right amount to be able to built it that way.

                The one on the left the lot does not slope enough and they ended up with partially below grade. AKA in your region a garden level basement same as the bi-level.

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  105. Avatar BA says:

    We are ALL appraisers here. I am sorry but I think we need to be a little more open minded to what others may bring to the table. Just because it’s not what we know or do in our area does not mean we are right and another Appraiser is wrong. Really how do we know what happens or is reasonable and excepted in areas we never worked in? So if it isn’t what you believe or experience it is simply is wrong?
    We all know that we all have passed the educational requirements, experience and testing to perform our jobs creditably and with ethical reporting and defendable data. So why be so closed minded on another persons experience? When a Lender or anyone not experienced and /or licensed in our field decides to make new stipulations or rules that appears to be in conflict with what we know to be good for the Market and the public we should ALL be hesitant and question. It is very possible that we are more accurate and knowledgeable about the new innovations the lender came up with. You see no one here (as far as I can tell) is against uniform(ANSI ) methods of measuring. ANSI does not dictate how to adjust or grid or inspect and they do not deal with the public in Real Estate, investing or changing popular concepts of construction or trends. They simply develop methods for uniformity in hundreds of products and services and more.
    The American National Standards Institute is a private non-profit organization that oversees the development of voluntary consensus standards for products, services, processes, systems, and personnel in the United States. The organization also coordinates U.S. standards with international standards so that American products can be used worldwide.
    No where did I read ” appraisal experts or Real Estate experts” or really qualified experts in any field that we are dealing with in these discussions. I also do not see any where that they believe their standards are infallible and the end all be all in all situations every where. No where is there a statement that the method they have developed is with out error or omission with no need for modification ever. WE know these lender are like thistles in the wind. From down payments to risk management and no doc loans to LTV and LTI they change all the time. So why in the world are we so inflexible when one of our own disagrees when they implement things that do not work for all of our world! Common people we are problem solvers, communicators, researchers as well as very flexible, intelligent, individuals. We have to have the ability to see in many different ways to come to reasonable conclusions. I for one think Baggins has some very ..very reasonable and valuable and valid concerns here. I’ll bet his clients in the area he works in agree and really so do ALL people in homes with partial below ground living areas JMO

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    • Avatar Chris says:

      BA… So why are we not arguing about what the definition of below grade actually is? And not all this other junk?

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      • Avatar BA says:

        Well IMO we should be discussing what the MARKET accepts and values not what we FEEL individually while trying to apply OUR thoughts or decisions to the entire country. It just does not work that way. IMO
        If it did there would be no reason USPAP developed this….
        The COMPETENCY RULE disclosure requirement calls for the appraiser to disclose a lack of knowledge and/or experience to the client before accepting the assignment, at whatever point in the appraisal process that it becomes apparent to the appraiser that his or her lack of knowledge and experience will prevent the development of credible assignment results..”
        So really we could just talk about things that are different in our market. I’m sure there’s a lot of them we don’t even think about till someone changes the rules on us.
        OR we could decide to Challange ANY THING these wizards come up with. Like the systemic racism in the appraisal practice being the cause of neighborhood values now being pushed by politicians and NEXT by lenders who caused the whole mess which continues still today by RED lining neighborhoods years ago!!

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    • Avatar Tom B says:

      “We are ALL appraisers here. I am sorry but I think we need to be a little more open minded to what others may bring to the table. Just because it’s not what we know or do in our area does not mean we are right and another Appraiser is wrong. Really how do we know what happens or is reasonable and excepted in areas we never worked in? So if it isn’t what you believe or experience it is simply is wrong?”

      NO…

      I am not saying that at all. All I am saying is that when I see the actual data. I see the zillow photos, I see the assessors files. I see that the real estate agents have emails and phone numbers so I could call them and discuss the property. I would have no reason to not report it as it is. IF I COULD… which so far I see no reason why I couldn’t.

      BTW, contrary to what has been stated here. We on the east cost actually have resort property, hills, rivers, mountains, etc.. All manner of designs.

      “ALL people in homes with partial below ground living areas JMO”

      Why… why should they care!? You have house it brings $400 a SF in the market for all finished square footage.

      It has 1000 feet above grade and 1000 partial below grade. How much is it worth? $800,000

      Now that’s the real house. That’s the actual real thing how it is built into the land. That is NOT fiction.

      Ok, now take the same house and because somewhere, somehow the Real estate agents said we can sell this as all one thing. The people don’t care. So some appraisers said ok, well hell, let’s just report it as all above grade. that’s fiction but everyone’s doing it. Let’s see what that house is worth now.

      Let’s see 2,000 x $400 = $800,000 — OMG the same value.

      The real house sold for $400/SF
      The ‘fake’ house sold for $400/SF

      They both reflect what the market is doing. One is reality and could be reproduced in a similar manner by anyone following ANSI. The other is fiction and could change on a whim.

      Hell I posted a link from the Colorado History society . Colorado historically recognize Bi-Levels as a basement home. I’m sure it was the real estate sales community that changed that thinking. Agents like it simple and easy. You admitted yourself that they will BS anyone with a bucket of paint and cheap rug.

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      • Avatar BA says:

        Oh well we are talking about market reaction here not logic in the appraiser’s world. Sorry but very few buyers will even look at a home that the MLS sheet shows as 1000 GLA in a resort area with a price tag of 800K. Why do REALTORS report GLA larger than what it is? Why do they include basement GLA in the MLS sheet ALL the time? Because they are MARKETING the property. If you cant attract interested buyers the price will suffer. The longer on the market the lower the price. So this new rule is NOT about the market IMO
        The MLS draws people to the property. ITs market appeal. Thats is the reason all the things that attract buyers are included in the MLS. That’s the entire reason Real Estate agents don’t care about accuracy. You know Quaint not small… interesting not obsolete, They appeal to the public and to public perception
        Now if we are going to adjust for logic and lenders (who are the ones who made this rule because THEY state “PP SQ FT” is the most important thing to a buyer) that’s all great no garden level GLA but if, as FNMA and EVERY other recognized entity requires and recognizes that the MARKET is the most important factor in Real Estate then we should at least consider what they think, need and want as well as how THEY determine what a property is worth. Again JMO. REPEATING this over and over in any area gives us the Markets value of amenities, Location, GLA and PROPERTIES. Not some board room wizards. WE ascertain value with comparable that are sold to buyers who decide what they want to pay for the asset. But first we need to understand and extract what they think and realize the importance of it. Builders do it. That’s why “open concept is so popular here. Like pools in AZ. The buyers value them. The market wants it, buys it and pays for it! Open concepts are less expensive to build, require less material and time to build and all in all is more profitable for the builder. IT’s is what the MARKET wants right now.
        So the public or the MARKET is what we need to study and know and value. Why is that such a hard concept? Just wondering

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      • Baggins Baggins says:

        “Credible assignment results.”

        What is credible about describing something contrary to the way the rest of the market describes it? Is credibility in the final value opinion, developmental methods, both? Credible to whom?

        How any particular market landed with their own unique methods is not all that consequential. What matters is where we are at now.

        Competency matters. So does the presentation to other people, the appearance of competency.

        A finished basement that nobody else recognizes as a basement, with no attributable room counts. Curious. Two different ‘basements’. Suspicious. Reporting which is contrary to what is observed in the county record, MLS systems, and all the data aggregators. Fishy. Creating skewed ppsf indicators not aligned with the surrounding market. Incompetency. Purposefully increasing software warnings in the XML final report package. Stipulations. Purposefully creating a false net/gross indicator of dis similarity although there is good similarity in the comparable selections. Misleading. Confusing other licensed professionals whom are obviously not familiar with the ANSI methods. Purposeful misrepresentation. Presenting appraisal grid work in a sort of tangled web rather than keeping it simple and straight forward, following market standards set by the community. Unnecessarily complex and confusing. This presents the appearance of fraudulent activity and impropriety. The final value opinion is inconsequential because competency is proved and defensible based on how we arrived at the final value opinion, in relationship to the market data at hand.

        To be that fringe nut job whom insists on doing something differently, or to go with the flow of your local community and community standards. To be or not to be. Go along to get along. I like Ike.

        https://www.nar.realtor/about-nar/governing-documents/code-of-ethics/realtors-pledge-of-performance-and-service
        Let’s consider the ethical perspective of a realty agent and the ’17 articles and related standards of practice’. We’re in the same industry and although wearing different hats the ethical principals are supposed to be mostly well aligned. Ethics is based on morality, what is right vs what is wrong.
        Article 1 / REALTORS® protect and promote their clients’ interests while treating all parties honestly.
        Article 2 / REALTORS® refrain from exaggeration, misrepresentation, or concealment of pertinent facts related to property or transactions.
        Article 3 / REALTORS® cooperate with other real estate professionals to advance their clients’ best interests.
        Article 4 / When buying or selling on their own account or for their families or firms, REALTORS® make their true position or interest known.
        Article 5 / REALTORS® do not provide professional services where they have any present or contemplated interest in property without disclosing that interest to all affected parties.
        Article 6 / REALTORS® disclose any fee or financial benefit they may receive from recommending related real estate products or services.
        Article 7 / REALTORS® accept compensation from only one party, except where they make full disclosure to all parties and receive informed consent from their client.
        Article 8 / REALTORS® keep the funds of clients and customers in a separate escrow account.
        Article 9 / REALTORS® make sure that details of agreements are spelled out in writing whenever possible and that parties receive copies.
        Duties to the Public
        Article 10 / REALTORS® give equal professional service to all clients and customers irrespective of race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status, national origin, sexual orientation, or gender identity. REALTORS® do not discriminate in their employment practices.
        Article 11 / REALTORS® are knowledgeable and competent in the fields of practice in which they engage or they get assistance from a knowledgeable professional, or disclose any lack of expertise to their client.
        Article 12 / REALTORS® are honest and truthful in their communications and present a true picture in their advertising, marketing, and in other public representations.
        Article 13 / REALTORS® do not engage in the unauthorized practice of law.
        Article 14 / REALTORS® willingly participate in ethics investigations and enforcement actions.
        Duties to REALTORS®
        Article 15 / REALTORS® make only truthful, not misleading, comments about other real estate professionals.
        Article 16 / REALTORS® respect the exclusive representation or exclusive brokerage relationship agreements that other REALTORS® have with their clients.
        Article 17 / REALTORS® arbitrate and mediate financial disagreements with other REALTORS® and with their clients.

        We’ve got problems. 2: Misrepresentation. 3: cooperation. 6. Disclosure of financial benefit (ANSI, and the FNMA group pushing this mandate, looking squarely at you!) 10. Equal professional service. (in the case of appraisers, this is FNMA specific, nobody else will be adopting this, so far.) 11. Knowledgeable and competent about our own market. ANSI is not, but somehow is driving our field of practice. 12. Honest and truthful present a true picture. In the case of appraisers, true to whom? Before last week that meant true to the local market standards. The perception of being untruthful and deceptive will be present. 15. Truthful statements about other professionals. They do it differently than the ANSI method around here.

        I don’t know, seems to conflict with article 2 quite a bit. Realty agents live and die by ppsf metrics. If the appraiser manipulates the metrics, even though ‘the end value may be the same’, the appearance of impropriety will be strong. Heaven help the appraiser who ‘comes up short on value’ alongside the appearance of incompetence, misleading reporting to a standard not accepted in the local market, and skewed ppsf metrics not recognized by the current market approach standards.

        As I said previously, once NAR adopts this, trains realty agents on it, and all the assessors and MLS services which draw from assessors provide tools and different standards, then the appraiser can simply go with the flow and adopt this too. How did I suddenly become the tool which ANSI uses to force their wares on our local market? I’m not an ANSI salesman! I do not believe in this product, I don’t want to subscribe to it, and I certainly do not want to sell others on this. Question: What happened when ANSI tried to sell this to NAR, or did they even bother? Don’t blame me that CO markets developed this way. But the market is the way it is.

        Look me straight in the eye with a straight face without flinching and tell me that thousand foot of space has zero attributable room counts. I’ll call anyone incompetent and foolish because they would deserve it. Logic matters, truthful statements based in real world facts matter, so do checks and balances. FAQ on scooting all room count to above line is just lazy coding and incompetent guidance.

        FNMA REWRITE THE 1004 form again! Put in a specific entry line for ‘fully below grade’, ‘partially below grade’, fully above grade. Give the appraisers the ability to adjust these three different unique space types, with three different adjustment value basis figures. And I’d like a size of deck and porch patio line which also had a ppsf adjustment. What’s the deal with specific on this estimating on that? Incorporate the cost approach into the 1004 form more than is currently presented. Where is my windows packages line? My electrical services line? My HVAC line? My lighting improvements line? My floor improvements line? Doors and trim? Fencing? Landscaping? Every little detail which drives the whole of the market value? If we’re supposed to go all out on reliable specific reporting, why not go all out on reliable specific reporting? This stinks of a special privilege being granted to ANSI. How did exacting size measurement under one specific standard become more important than the quantity of improvement in relationship to effective and actual age? Do you think property investors care this much about the standard of measurement?

        Change the form entirely again, then it can make sense to report readers. What FNMA is demanding for people whom participate in markets which do not recognize the ANSI standard, is for us to report in a misleading manner.

        Riddle me this riddle me that. M&S residential cost handbook says all three levels of a tri adjust at above grade, that a bi level adjusts half above grade but lower area space can be brought to an equivalent. ANSI demands all garden level be in basement lines, which includes the lower tri level. Guidance conflicts at hand.

        On top of the other topics, this is a cost approach night mare as well. Two different adjustment basis calculations for two different ‘basement areas’, on a standard single family home. Curious…

        Let’s do a survey and ask a simple question:

        How many ‘basement areas’ does a regular single family residential home have?
        One? or Two?

        Care to take a stab at what the predominant response will be? The ANSI standard only exists in your mind. Sure the ability to form a work around is there, absolutely. Having to present myself like a damned idiot whom does not understand local realty customs is the hard part.

        https://www.nar.realtor/education/designations-and-certifications
        Did not see anything related to ANSI there…

        https://www.nar.realtor/search-results?qu=ansi&p=1
        Oh boy, all those thousands of NAR classes. Does not appear to be a single one for ANSI on the realty agent side. Let’s review some of the NAR letter about ANSI again.

        NAR requests that Fannie Mae delay implementation of this new requirement until Freddie Mac, FHA, VA and USDA adopt the same requirement to reduce confusion. Real Estate professionals and appraisers also need more time to become familiar with how the standard is applied.

        Given this is such a significant change, the implementation date should be pushed back for the myriad professionals engaged in real estate transactions to learn and adjust to the measurement standard. Once implemented, there should also be a grace period during which real estate agents and appraisers provide feedback to the GSEs to work through any issues that could arise from the new measurement requirement.

        We’ve got problems.

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        • Avatar Tom B says:

          “A finished basement that nobody else recognizes as a basement, with no attributable room counts.”

          I’ll ask again because you have yet to answer this simple question. I know this forum formats replies in a strange manner. It’s difficult to figure who is responding to what sometimes.

          But… here goes.

          A: The ColoradoHistory.org does view that area as a basement. I posted a link above. That’s how bi-level came about.They were a modification of a ranch with the basements fully underground and a window up higher than your head. Go read the history link. “garden level basement” Now the windows are lower. more light, better view, more appealing. Likely how the real estate agents started magically lumping everything together.

          Now here’s my question…. why do you keep saying this…..

          “with no attributable room counts.”” — The rooms on the in-ground level don’t disappear. Why do you say no room counts. I can’t understand that comment.

          Can you give me an example with this simple scenario. I have a bi-level that has 4/2/1 above grade. 4/2/1 below grade. 1000 up | 1000 down

          I have 3 identical comps.

          Now you report it all above grade so everything becomes 8/4/2 – 2000. I tell you no, I need you to report it as they really are. So now you have

          4/2/1 — 1000
          4/2/1 — 1000

          So now what disappeared. What rooms were not attributed.

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        • Avatar Tom B says:

          “What is credible about describing something contrary to the way the rest of the market describes it?”

          I suppose to answer that question you would have to ask yourself…. Where is the line of my writing a report for my client to a known standard OR becoming an advocate for the interested parties such as real estate agents.

          I have no problem telling an agent that I will report the bi-level as a basement home AND that nothing will be lost. Full market credit will be given for everything there. It’s simply reported to reflect what actually exists.

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        • Avatar Tom B says:

          “We’ve got problems.”

          You may, and FNMA may. A great many of us across the USA do not.

          I still think we should start a pool as which day your head is going to explode.

          ANSI is a standard to measure and classify. — Do that when you measure the dwelling for FNMA

          M&S has method for you to follow when using their cost service — Do that when you use their service.

          If you tell someone in your report you used M&S they know how M&S wants you to figure things and that’s now THEIR problem not yours. No one has told you you have to change the way you use the cost service.

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          • Avatar chris says:

            Tom B…..His head has already exploded weeks ago. He just does not want to conform. We all conformed with this below grade reporting requirements over a decade ago, I just do not know how he has been getting away with it with his lenders all these years. That is what I want to know.

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            • Avatar Chris says:

              This entire thread is very scary. I see why banks, Fannie and the general public dont trust appraisers. But, this also shows the unbelievable shortcoming of the reviews and underwriters!! No wonder there are so many bad loans if you cant get a simple measurement right or understand what a basement is, imagine what else is in those reports

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              • Baggins Baggins says:

                Chris 2. The primary purpose of the licensed valuation position is to ‘protect the public trust’. There has been no shortcoming of reviewers and underwriters when they deal with CO loans. Because even within the CU modeling database, there has been general data consistency. As the majority of appraisers here up until the point of mandate by force, had not adopted ANSI because that created more problems than it solved, as assessors do not adhere to that standard by which all other market presentation data followed. Public records and assessment records which GSE review services rely on illustrated matching data. We have done nothing more than simply complied with reporting standards of local county jurisdictions and engaged in standard valuation theory approaches of likewise comparisons.

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            • Baggins Baggins says:

              You Chris, right about now I sort of wish our local jurisdictions would have adopted this too. The fact of the matter is they did not, across this entire state.

              Unfortunately, that’s someone elses department.

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  106. Avatar chris says:

    Chris…100% agreed !!! Now I know why they want to get rid of us….A simple thing like reporting below grade. All I hear is a bunch of cry babies who think their fredumbs are being taken away. 10+ years I have been breaking my stones figuring out lower levels….Poor babies !!! Get over yourselves. You ain’t that important !

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    • Avatar Chris says:

      I can forgive all of this, MAYBE, if these were all trainees. But then I would have to say the mentors are not teaching the trainees. Actually, I understand. This is the mindset of many out there. Over the years I have trained 7 or 8 appraisers. In that time when i was looking for appraisers I had MANY say they would not work for me because I ask too much of them as far as detail and “thoroughness”. I was told by at least 3 people that they could get paid just as much elsewhere and do much less. One of the few that agreed to work with me quit in the middle of measuring the garage!!! I told him he was doing it wrong, he said none of this matters and it does not have to be so accurate and quit! That was without actually measuring the house. My partner (ex wife) at the time made 1 girl cry during the inspection. We weren’t mean, we just wanted to be as accurate and detailed as possible.

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      The proper word is freedoms. The word is not fredumbs. You know I just went to a military funeral the other day. Freedoms is the word you are looking for. Please don’t take them for granted or disparage the sacrifice. And yes, each one of us and our individual freedoms certainly absolutely is that important.

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      • Avatar Chris says:

        Funny how you want me to comply to your English standard, but you don’t want to comply to the ANSI standard. I say fredumb because it applies, it reflects the insane rhetoric these days about how our freedoms are being imposed on and soon for all of us to be under one world order. Get it ?

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        • Baggins Baggins says:

          Oh Chris. By what mechanism did ANSI become the law of the land?

          And by what due process did they achieve that?

          https://www.britannica.com/topic/due-process

          If you think adhering to the principals of democratic process and due process is a form of insane rhetoric…

          Equal protection for every jurisdiction which does comply with ANSI, but no equal protection for the persons residing in locations where local authorities have not installed an ANSI standard? Make it make sense.

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          • Avatar Chris says:

            This thread and the crazy reaction makes it obvious that a standard NEEDS to be used. I am amazed at what people are saying here. It actually does appear that appraisers have been making up there own ways to measure. Any home owner should be able to expect that no matter how many times they have a house appraised the living area is generally the same (within say 10 sf+-). This is not rocket science but after seeing all the sky is falling comments, it is to many here. Its all very very basic, a 10 year old can do this.

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            • Baggins Baggins says:

              Hi Chris. In Colorado we already have this standard approach.

              Buyers, sellers, and agents, do expect and enjoy a similar market measurement when the appraiser shows up. Only a rare appraiser uses ansi, or that’s how it was before the dictatorial mandate. If there was an opt out voluntary, one would expect that most appraisers around here would use that. We have very consistent measurement methods already.

              And from this point forward, buyers will be more confused, so will agents. Because the appraisal will never read the same size as agents or assessors state. Because agents pull data from assessors, whom do not use ansi standards.

              Ten year olds can measure a bi and tri, it’s simple. They may however, have a hard time estimating ansi compliant size data, when that garden level reporting is not available from any other data source than a personalized inspection. The grid is going to confuse them when the ansi standard is applied to subject but not the comps.

              Thank you.

              Which is more clear and transparent to home owners: the assessors statement of size, which the agents follow, and what they agreed to purchase. Or a varied interpretation of size from the appraiser using a measurement standard nobody else does.

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              • Avatar Chris says:

                I really dont understand. So…. appraisers were adding in two story areas that were not there? Therefore misrepresenting the actual living area of a property? They were pretending basement areas (below grade) were above grade and adding it into the total GLA? For what Purpose? I have split levels, raised ranch houses, cape cods and bungalows. I NEVER included basement areas as GLA. I have ALWAYS used comparables of the same style and have always been able to determine, from either my experience in the same models or by assessor data, what is similar in size to the subject as far as basement or dormers. Its really very basic and simple. I DONT CARE what the realtor things is basement. There are times when the assessor calls something basement when I know it is not while at the same time show the EXACT same model house showing its not basement area. It is for the appraiser to decide what these areas are based on a very simple concept, explain in great detail in the report and make adjustments based on this information. Sure the reader can disagree with what a basement is or isnt or a dormer area that they feel should be counted even if they have to crouch down to “use” it. It doesnt matter if I am applying what is true in the subject to what I determine to be what I feel is true to the comparable. As far as I know this is how it has been done since the day appraisers started as a “professional” group. Every house should end up to generally the same size no matter which appraiser measures it. Using ANSI just gets us all closer to ANY appraiser getting as similar GLA’s as possible no matter who measures. If I was not in this field and saw one appraisal on my house showing 2000 sf with 2000 sf basement then another showing 1800 with 900 sf basement and another with a totally different GLA I would think its all a scam and I would have no faith that any are actually professional.

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          • Avatar Tom B says:

            Baggins,

            ANSI is totally voluntary. From all you have written I don’t think you should use their Z765 standard.

            just don’t do it. It’s clearly not for you.

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            • Baggins Baggins says:

              Define; voluntary.

              Q7. Can appraisers use the exception code to voluntarily opt out of compliance with the ANSI standard?No.

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              • Avatar Tom B says:

                You asked who made ANSI765 the law of the land.

                It’s not law. It’s voluntary. That means you can use it or not. It’s up to you.

                Now you are quoting references to the exception code from FNMA. Different question.

                Again. I don’t think you are able to reason out ANSI765 and should not use it in your appraisal business.

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  107. Baggins Baggins says:

    Oh you guys and your betting pools. I’ll take April fools day for a thousand Alex. Don’t just ask how I’m getting away with this, ask how an entire state does.

    Chris a right winger political jab? Flip the coin. “I support the current thing.” This is a fun game. ‘We’re currently looking for new conspiracy theories in 2022, as all the old ones came true.’

    Nope the ANSI thing is not that but is reflective of this sweeping cultural change. A tiny body of people presuming they speak for everyone else and they know best. NPC’s following without question. Good ideas do not require force.

    Thank you for the compliment, I’m just one guy on a keyboard who types fast. I speed read and speed type sometimes I think to 130 wpm. And I’m good at chop internet research. Spend all this time doing it properly to the current local market standards. Take the time to become well informed if there is a valuation or data challenge. That is how I have made it all this time without a single insurance claim or state complaint I have ever been made aware of. Sure I’ve upset some people with adherence to non advocate principals but when it comes to competent credible assignment results, I satisfy the reporting and research requirements every time. Transparent reporting is the name of the game.

    Why would a lender challenge me on reporting, when I prove I’m reporting to the same standard as the local market uses? When I say my subject is 1k up 1k down, and all my other comps are 2k up, that’s going to be a problem. ANSI FAQ is glaringly absent on how to report comps.

    Tom, per the no attributable room count comment. Sure, we are in agreement that data scooting is an effective work around for this. But also, as reiterated time and again in liability focused CE classes for valuation service providers, the appraisers duty of service may indeed extend beyond the limited scope of the stated intended user and client. It may have been christensen law blog or one of the McKissock classes where I read this, can’t remember off hand, but it has been established before that the appraiser can not hide behind the limited client and intended user statements to avoid liability and/or culpability for a wide variety of reporting or valuation conclusion faults. FNMA chimed in on this with approved language to quell the growing movement where appraisers were using such ridiculous language as nobody should rely on this report for any reason sort of catch all. Your question is fair and the specific answer is; because the laymen should also be able to understand the appraisal report. I understand the concept of whom I’m providing services for but it does not change the nature of professional engagement expectations. If the valuation process was relatively simple and straight forward, anyone should be able to read the appraisers report and be able to understand this. To report a basement with finished size in the specific basement line, with zero attributable room counts. Imagine being a first time participator reading your first appraisal report. That’s a head scratching moment. Why would a professional do that? There is a lot to be said about being a straight shooter stand up fellow whom talks plainly, if I may indulge in a little colorful language to answer that specific question.

    Chris you bring up an interesting concept: Who is ‘in charge’ of our language? Who’s the authority on definition? As you stated this long list of people whom are not in charge of this. Let’s ponder whom made FNMA in charge of the language, you forgot to include chartered GSE’s in your list. As the classic line goes; What we have here is failure to communicate.

    I found this:
    https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/below-grade
    (click sample link for this below page)
    https://app2.kitchener.ca/appdocs/Zonebylaw/publishedcurrenttext/sections//Section%204%20-%20Definitions.pdf

    “Below Grade” means any portion of a building where the finished grade meets the exterior wall at an elevation not more than 0.5 metres below the elevation of the underside of an interior ceiling and the maximum slope taken from the closest property line is not more than 18 degrees (3:1 slope). In the case where a retaining wall(s) has been installed to meet these criteria, that portion of the building shall in no way be considered to be below grade. Where portions of a building are partially exposed, the floor area of that whole storey is considered to be above grade. (By-law 2013-138, S.13)

    “Basement” means any enclosed portion of a building which is partially below grade and which has 50 percent or more of its height, from floor to ceiling, above finished grade level

    Sort of ambiguous here… More conflicting definitions. Let’s check above grade.

    https://www.lawinsider.com/search?q=above+grade&_index=definition
    https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/story-above-grade

    Story above grade means any story having its finished surface entirely above grade plane, except that a basement shall be considered as a story above grade plane where the finished surface of the floor above the basement meets anyone (1) of the following:

    Story above grade means any story that has its finished floor surface entirely above grade, except that a basement shall be considered as a story above grade when the distance from grade to the finished surface of the floor above the basement is more than 6 feet (1,829 mm) for more than 50% of the total perimeter.

    This seems to be something individual counties define in their own documents. Let’s check Adams county. They are a county which always includes garden level as above grade space, and does not distinguish between partially above grade and fully above grade in their building process and assessment recordings.

    https://www.adcogov.org/sites/default/files/development-standards-and-regulations.pdf
    Control + F, call up the search feature. Enter; above grade. (use arrows to jump to this word instance)

    Most suburbia is A1 zoning in Adams county:
    900 square feet on the 1st floor plus 600 square feet on the 2nd floor. (A lower level with more than 50% of its perimeter located more than 50% above grade level may be counted as floor area.)

    Let’s check this same doc for the word basement. Adams county seems pretty clear on this.
    ‘A lower level with more than 50% of its perimeter located more than 50% above grade level may be counted as floor area’

    11-02-249FLOOR AREA, RESIDENTIAL Total area of a dwelling excluding basement, carport or garage.

    Adams county seems pretty clear on this. Before you guys just assume I’m wrong and you’re right. Check the coding and regulations for the counties you specifically appraise in. Local jurisdiction matters.

    I seem to recall hours and hours of droning on continuing education and professional advisement from local appraiser group instructors whom encouraged us to be aware of the local rules and regulations. This is the very essence of being; competent in a given location. Anyone can appraise anywhere, as long as they use reliable valuation methods and take the time to be competent in that given location. When stepping into new territory that act of becoming competent also commonly includes taking the time to read local jurisdiction zoning and coding allowances. It is very important to know if structures are in compliance or out of compliance, especially if altered off permit at a later date. To ponder ‘how I’ve been getting away with this’, is to basically slander me and is a violation of the appraisers ethical principals to promote the public trust in this industry as a whole. I’m complying with local jurisdiction. Which is more credible; to recognize the rules and regs of local jurisdiction or to ignore that with your own methods?

    Remember the old appraiser forum debates on tear down structure orders and out of compliance additions? If you don’t remember that, it was a big deal. Some jurisdictions had excess DIY build structures which were not code compliant. Reisdents kept adding and adding and ignoring setback limitations. And don’t you know it, some of those places this activity was prolific, they did indeed order tear down of structures en mass. This blew back during the housing crash when those properties eventually ended up in the hands of default property managers, aka reo. That sparked a new FNMA rule due to excess repurchase orders for this one topic matter. The updated rule was the ‘permitted addition rule’. Because, you know, legally built with permitting matters and is relevant to the valuation process.

    https://selling-guide.fanniemae.com/Selling-Guide/Origination-thru-Closing/Subpart-B4-Underwriting-Property/Chapter-B4-1-Appraisal-Requirements/Section-B4-1-3-Appraisal-Report-Assessment/1032992541/B4-1-3-05-Improvements-Section-of-the-Appraisal-Report-09-02-2020.htm

    The permitted addition rule language from the selling guide: Additions without Permits / If the appraiser identifies an addition(s) that does not have the required permit, the appraiser must comment on the quality and appearance of the work and its impact, if any, on the market value of the subject property. / me; I seem to recall that also saying the appraiser must comment if the structure does or does not have the ability to become permitted, and something with professional finish or it’s equivalent sort of language. That’s what I remember and still use. Again, emphasis on the local market.

    We’ve got other conflicting guidance on this from days past. I found this Tom Horn doc from Appraisal Buzz.
    https://appraisalbuzz.com/will-finished-basement-add-value-home/
    Tom links to his own page which clearly agrees with ANSI standards. But also he has this one paragraph which I agree with and it is an important concept in comparability.
    ‘If it turns out that a particular split foyer home does not have any part under ground it still has to be considered as such because the split foyer comps that are being used most likely have an area that is underground and you want to compare the subject and sales on a like basis. It would not be appropriate to lump all the living area of one property together, including the basement level, but then compare it to another home where you have separated the above grade and lower level areas.

    As long as the property being valued is being compared to all the sales in the same way you should still get the same estimate of value.’ / end copied portion.

    Oh no, did I miss the ANSI FAQ line that specifically addresses how to deal with comparables, once I’ve complied with ANSI for my subject? That sort of was the point of a lot of my example posting, detailing example after example of how the counties do not parse the garden away from agla area, and how some counties like Adams specifically (5th most populous county in the state), how Adams does not even provide a ‘garden level’ reporting line or any online sketches and just lumps all size including garden into above grade reporting lines. Also I detailed the wildly varying nature of tri levels where their spacial attribution can be quite varied, the largest area could be garden, it could be mid, you never know. So you can’t just run a rule of thumb for comps reporting and cut a third off into the basement line and be done with it. Some bi levels have garage on the lower side and they can have garages which run full length front to back or the garage may terminate at the living room area, and that can happen for tri levels too. More impossible estimates if the same measurement and reporting standard has not been applied to comps as it has the subject under ANSI standards when no other reporting for other properties reflects ANSI standards. Many bi levels have bump outs on the front/and or rear, so that’s another measurement estimate variable which can run the entire length or like half length, front and/or rear, and can be anywhere from a half foot bump out to 2.5 ft. Tri’s same thing, bump outs are common (bump out meaning the upper portion is slightly longer and goes over the lower level, so you get that building overhang approach, they did that to maximize agla area over smaller foundations).

    I’m not being an advocate for anyone. I am reporting these properties as they actually exist. I am in compliance with local jurisdiction, so are all the other agents whom follow assessment reporting. I match as Tom says in his article; you want to compare the subject and sales on a like basis. It would not be appropriate to. / Riddle me this riddle me that, how does one provide like basis comparisons in Adams county when we don’t know the specific volume of below grade sizing for our comps? My crystal ball is glowing that someone will say; just look at the 2 page full broker listing with all the dimensions stated. If only it was that simple, agents can enter that off the cuff because they’re required to fill those lines, if they’re not guessing at it they may be just running simplistic interior measurements and estimates to accomplish that data fill for room dimensions, if not just copying any data source they can get their hands on, such minutia in listings is often entered by non licensed assistants. So we don’t have online assessor sketches. We don’t have garden level size breakdowns. We are supposed to provide comparisons in a likewise manner.

    We got problems.

    Also just a helpful note on the sort of jumbling of response posting, yeah that’s tough to manage. Which is why just copy your statement, refresh the page, post it anew at the bottom. Once you recognize the posting line gets sort of thin appearing on the page, you’re into the responding to a response area and your response may not land where intended. Best to just jump to a fresh post rather than responding to anyone else, fyi. Thanks for sticking around, I thought this was over. But then suddenly I was incompetent and sneaky or something, ‘getting away with it for all these years.’ Oh please. You guys are talking about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Either we’re all doing it wrong, we’re all doing it right, local jurisdiction matters or it does not, competency in locational standards matter or they do not, etc, etc, etc yada yada.

    Lets talk about FNMA & ANSI. What statements would be true for both of these organizations at the same time: Neither is actually a builder. Neither has jurisdiction over local municipalities. Neither provides valuation services. Neither provides realty services. Neither is a qualified architect. Neither has authority over state regulatory bodies. etc, etc, etc. Colorado appraisers are not knocking at your door demanding you adopt our methods. We would simply appreciate the same respect. One size does not fit all.

    Want to talk mountain out of a mole hill, talk about unnecessary complexity for something which until april fools day was very straight forward and easy to manage. Act like I’m a cave man living in the woods or something here, give me a break. I’ve got your heart attack right here, this is hilarious, the apparent inability to respect other peoples local customs, vainly reaching for justification why you think it’s acceptable to push other people around. Lot’s of that going around lately. Tell you what, I’ll totally go with the ANSI program, the very minute the assessors and local realty agents and the other GSE’s get on board too. I’ll do it immediately like right then and there. And I can already comply for ranches and 2’s like today because these same issues do not exist. However, rewriting assessment, permitting, building, zoning and coding documents for an entire state regarding bi and split level housing, retroactively adapting all previous and current MLS records to be ANSI compliant could take a while. BRB, hang tough, we’ll get there, eventually. (department store on hold music) Additionally, I can neither confirm nor deny I have ever completed ‘an appraisal’.

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    • Avatar Tom B says:

      “Tom, per the no attributable room count comment. Sure, we are in agreement that data scooting is an effective work around for this.”

      It’s not a work around. It’s reality.

      The rest was TLDR. I can’t even understand if you answered my question. I think you are saying you agree with me that if you report reality per ANSI, no rooms will become ‘lost’.

      That then allows one to place the comparable data in alignment and make any necessary adjustments for valuable market related differences.

      Pretty easy. Clear as a bell. Everybody is happy. Any person with basic reading comprehension skills can follow it.

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      • Baggins Baggins says:

        It’s a head scratching moment because the UAD formatting will read with no room counts, even though there is attributable size in the finished basement line. That’s a specific internal appraisal software review warning point, by the way. I appreciate that particular warning, it reminds me that even if I’ve entered finished basement room size, I forgot to enter my finished basement room count. Tech people drew that review coorelation because it’s logical. If the room counts are in the basement, the room counts should appear in the basement. If those room counts are in the top agla lines, then those room counts should appear in that line. Just because the total room count is still present does not answer the logical question of why the data was parsed. Despite popular belief on the matter, individual borrowing customers and their agents do sometimes actually take the time to read appraisal reports and try to figure out all the details. Now why did the appraiser report size on two different lines but reported all the room counts only on one line… Curious. It’s like looking under the hood for the turn signal. The turn signal is in the cab, not under the hood. Everyone knows that. Basement rooms are in the basement, basement rooms are not upstairs. Logic fail.

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        • Avatar Tom B says:

          “What are you doing on a blog site if you don’t enjoy conversation and reading? /”

          What are you doing suggesting what I should and should not be doing with regard to what I read and what forums I choose to participate in?

          BTW, I was an admin for 7 years as a volunteer on a very high profile forum that is still running strong. It was basically a teaching / learning site with an International user base. I had no problem understanding and communicating.

          Just because you can continue to type lengthy pondering doesn’t mean I must continue to partake in it. Re-posting it, seriously?

          So the “meme guy” in this thread is going to tell me this…. “That’s right up there with emoticons.” — Yeah, right back at you.

          Have a good one. I’m quite certain that you can continue to scour the Internet about classes, trends, blog posts, conundrums, stumbling blocks, and all manner of static simply because you can and also because you are pissed off at FNMA.

          We all get where you are coming from. Tried to show you some easy concepts to use that we have used forever. You seem to not want to acknowledge it. Fine. Rock on and good luck in dealing with FNMA in your world.

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          • Baggins Baggins says:

            Oh come on now. I had edited that before you even responded. Just having fun. TLDNR is just a pet peeve like people whom rush to post first with some qualifier they did not take the time to read. That’s not what you are doing so I edited that within like a minute, don’t worry.

            The workaround solutions are not why I’m here. We’ve all got our skill sets and tool boxes.

            What I’m hoping to express and relay is how the imposed non negotiable mandate does more harm than good and how one size does not fit all can be positively proved as creating more confusion than it seeks to solve. Logic tests are important. People at times can get too comfortable with work arounds but those may not make sense to others. Local jurisdiction matters. Relaying transparent easy to understand data is a strength of the appraisal community at large. Utilizing work arounds should be a measure of last resport not the standard process. And we learned new interesting facts about how there really is substantial tangible difference in the way different locations approach size recognition.

            Does the CU risk rating applied to appraisals correlate with the number of warnings which may be associated with internal review?

            I’m not mad at FNMA as a whole. But whomever pushed this certainly has earned the ire of many a thousand appraisers in this country. It’s not just me.

            What’s wrong with fun image attachments? It’s important that even when debating and even possibly arguing, we all take a minute to enjoy our day and have levity. I’m not mad at the moment, give me a minute I’ll get there again if needed.

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      Just a quick follow up here since there was a lot of content there.

      We learned something new with this latest round of research into above grade below grade definition.

      We learned that in some jurisdictions, the above grade or below grade earth level is not the whole story. It’s not just up down, but also side to side considerations. We learned that some jurisdictions also consider the volume of perimeter above grade as a defining factor for what constitutes basement vs above grade (aka garden level.)

      This is an important point which brings further clarity to the confusion here. These bi’s and tri’s from that age period always have a minimum size requirement and that size requirement caused them to become in alignment with minimum partially above grade perimiter minimum distance requirements, so they could the garden level space could be called ‘floor level’.

      Adams is not clear on above grade below grade but rather seems to have instituted their own zoning and coding work around where they qualified floor area vs basement area, on both height in relationship to grade, and perimiter volume in relationship to grade.

      Question; Did ANSI consider anything to do with perimiter when defining above/below grade?
      __________________

      Please, play nice. We’re all in this together. These are valid questions and do not equate to complaining for complaining sake. Many valid points here have been made which play to either side.

      This is a point I may not be aware of. Does the appraisal industry recognize a singular source for language definition?

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      • Avatar Tom B says:

        “Question; Did ANSI consider anything to do with perimiter when defining above/below grade?”

        Yes they did.

        In the actual STANDARD
        2.5
        3.6

        In the ANNEX
        Figure 5

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        • Baggins Baggins says:

          Why is everyone trying to make me buy this book?

          I’m having a hard time telling the difference between a GSE, an appraiser, and a book salesman.

          The question was posed to specifically identify if any volume of perimeter garden level may supersede the apparent hard line requirement to report all garden as below grade.

          I could phone a friend but will regrettably need to buy this book. That will probably be my very first book purchase under duress and threat of force in my entire life. I want a used second hand copy!

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          • Avatar Tom B says:

            “I’m having a hard time telling the difference between a GSE, an appraiser, and a book salesman.

            You are having a hard time with a lot more than that.

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    • Avatar Tom B says:

      “Tom links to his own page which clearly agrees with ANSI standards. But also he has this one paragraph which I agree with and it is an important concept in comparability.”

      I would do exactly the opposite of what he did IF all those lower levels sold equally, be they in ground or not.

      My reasoning. FNMA / ANSI asked for the true square footage of the SUBJECT.

      So if my b-Level was all above ground at 200sf I would report that. Then I put my comps as all above ground and explain why AND that the market gives same value either way.

      That way FNMA/ANSI gets the true square footage which is what they want. I might also include the breakdown of each comparable as to the inground area. Just so they are perfectly clear as to what they are dealing with.

      If you do it his way FNMA ends up with a sketch that reflects TRUE but a grid that reflects altered square footage for the very piece of the puzzle that FNMA wants to have accurate to reality.

      You still have to write narrative explaining it.

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      • Baggins Baggins says:

        Thank you for the response Tom.

        And…. We’re right back around to false net gross indicators and excess digital appraisal review warnings which are not necessary and counter productive to the intended functions of net/gross differential expressions. The net/gross indicators are intended to be expressions of similarity or dissimilarity, an important function of appraisal review for both human and automated systems alike. Not anymore!

        4 bi levels. All the same size. Yet the subject has a different parsed size expression than the rest. Let’s review the EO warnings which will come with that; Failure to bracket gla of subject vs comparbles. Excess adjustment volume over 25%. There are no room counts in the basement, but the basement line appears to contain a size entry. These are familiar internal EO review warnings in Alamode software because until april fools, those were legitimately helpful alerts which helped appraisers keep review alerts down and FNMA CU risk identification scores low.

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        • Avatar Tom B says:

          No, none of that will happen. It will be apples to apples across the board.

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          • Avatar Tom B. says:

            Subject Abv Grade BiLevel comped to below grade bi levels that sell for same.

            Subject GLA is accurate per ANSI

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          • Avatar Tom B. says:

            Now the way you say agree with from the other guy. The results are the same but FNAM now gets a 50% wrong indication on the subject square footage.

            So this is not to ANSI spec. It does not give FNMA what they are looking for. Two appraisers could do this two different ways but only one way is correct to ANSI.

            Same results so I say he is doing it opposite to what FNMA and ANSI want.

            His thinking is correct for apples to apples comparisons but his reporting of the comps is backwards with regard to why FNMA wants ANSI compliant square footage.

            Either way, no rooms disappear and none of those errors occur. Plus as to bracketing. When you have three perfect comps bracketing takes a second chair.

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            • Baggins Baggins says:

              Sure, understood.

              My worries. Grid picture post.

              A bi lvl subject ansi compliant, all comps entered as they read from MLS and verifiable assessors data, not ANSI.

              I made the actual basement vs garden level adjust in a lower line by entering only an adjustable amount in the finished line but left unfinished blank.

              Am I missing something? We should have gone through this exercise earlier. Good idea.

              How is your first photo of all at 2,000 gla ansi compliant when that lower bi level garden level is supposed to be reported in the bas line?

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              • Avatar Tom B says:

                Jeeze Louise….. shakes head…..

                Dude…. you made a post about a guy named Tom Horn!!

                This is what you wrote……..

                “We’ve got other conflicting guidance on this from days past. I found this Tom Horn doc from Appraisal Buzz.
                https://appraisalbuzz.com/will-finished-basement-add-value-home/

                Tom links to his own page which clearly agrees with ANSI standards. But also he has this one paragraph which I agree with and it is an important concept in comparability.

                ‘If it turns out that a particular split foyer home does not have any part under ground it still has to be considered as such because the split foyer comps that are being used most likely have an area that is underground and you want to compare the subject and sales on a like basis. It would not be appropriate to lump all the living area of one property together, including the basement level, but then compare it to another home where you have separated the above grade and lower level areas.

                As long as the property being valued is being compared to all the sales in the same way you should still get the same estimate of value.’ / end copied portion.”

                The paragraph you said you agree with states…..
                “If it turns out that a particular split foyer home does not have any part under ground”

                We are talking about an ALL ABOVE GROUND BI_LEVEL DWELLING.

                ALL COMPS ARE BELOW GROUND.

                He say to compare the subject as though below ground. I say NO do it just teh opposite. THAT WAY …. FNMA will get an ANSI compliant SQUARE FOOT FIGURE FOR THE ****SUBJECT**** !!!!!

                His way they WILL NOT.

                EITHER WAY…. the value result is the same so just do it the way that reflects ANSI and gives FNMA what they want.

                =========
                Oh, and I’ll ask one more time… In your graphic… why no room count posted for sq ft. below grade?

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                • Baggins Baggins says:

                  Well hopefully I do not have a foot in mouth moment here. We really should have gone through this exercise earlier. I don’t think so though and these are complex considerations so why not some illustrative examples, a great idea.

                  My mention of tom and his guidance has nothing to do with what I posted. I’ve been droning on about the difficulties which come with disqualifying ‘market recognized agla space’, and scooting that to basement instead, since about the beginning here. Even if I wanted to use toms ‘like basis’ method I could not in Adams, because there is no definitive reliable source to inform me what their garden level space is, so I could scoot that to the basement line instead.

                  Your first grid photo is not ansi compliant because it reports below grade area in the same line as above grade areas. It is my understanding ANSI causes the need for all lower bi level areas to be reported in a different line. Correct? Y/N? ANSI FAQ #8 really points to the working operational approach where due to above/ below grade identification, that can and does change the above grade reporting numerical figures actual amount (scoot that size amount to basement instead).

                  Q8. The ANSI standard specifically notes that the definition of above and below grade could cause some houses to have no above-grade finished square footage. How should appraisers report GLA in this scenario?Properties for which the entire square footage is below grade (such as berm homes) would be eligible for the exception process described in Q6.

                  Q14. The ANSI standard requires any area that is partially or wholly below grade to be counted as basement; what defines ‘partially’ below grade?A floor level is partially or wholly below grade if any portion of its walls is not entirely at or above ground level.

                  On to the basement room reporting:
                  Q16. How should appraisers account for rooms located in above-grade finished areas that do not qualify as GLA under the ANSI standard? While the ANSI standard is not definitive on this point, appraisers should include rooms located in above-grade finished non-GLA areas in the room counts (Total Rooms, Bedrooms, Bath(s)) in the Improvement section and in the Sales Comparison Approach grid of the appraisal report to comply with Uniform Appraisal Dataset requirements.

                  One can not juggle room entry adjusts (I don’t think, never tried it) juggled between pg 1 improvements section and room count section on pg 2 the appraisal grid. Because the room count figures entered in the improvements section automatically transfer to the above grade room counts in the grid as that’s a software feature. This is what I’m on about. I could just add more juggled room count adjusts and do it this way instead. Second photo attachment. Sadly, this drives gross adjustment basis even higher. How does one comply with ANSI FAQ 16, and not at least have the subject with the all zero’s room count entry in the basement lines? I see what you’re saying, I would not want to use all zero’s for comps bas room counts, but how does one comply with FAQ 16 and have any below grade room counts for the subject?

                  Look at the gross adjustment continue to fly with juggled adjusts! That is not an honest expression of these homes base similarity and matching size.

                  Also, sorry, I’m unfamiliar with the juggling scooting method. By moving the room counts to the basement, then still applying a total room count adjust in agla, I have an imbalanced adjust when it should be mirrored. Above grade room count to 12k, bas only at 10, ideally those should be evenly balanced if all we’re doing is cutting out only to add back in on another line. This is a lot more complicated than just reporting them all as 2k agla across the board with a 0%/0% net/gross adjust indicator and no room adjusts.

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              • Avatar Tom B says:

                Here… let’s take his post and I will make a small edit…..

                ‘If it turns out that a particular split foyer home does not have any part under ground (edit by me edit by me edit by me ) the split foyer comps that are being used most likely have an area that is underground and you want to compare the subject and sales on a like basis. ( EDIT 2EDIT 2 )
                As long as the property being valued is being compared to all the sales in the same way you should still get the same estimate of value.’

                (edit 1 )
                “it still has to be considered as such because”
                No it doesn’t the same results can be achieved by altering the comparables to align to the subject rather than the subject to the comparables.

                Edit2
                ” It would not be appropriate to lump all the living area of one property together, including the basement level, but then compare it to another home where you have separated the above grade and lower level areas.”

                This makes no sense in context of an ALL ABOVE GROUND BI-LEVEL. Both of descriptions mention a basement. The statement is true. You don’t report and compare one property and include basement in GLA and then the other you break it out. But that is not the context of his scenario. His context is 4 homes all of the same design Bi-Level but your subject is ALL ABOVE GROUND. NO BASEMENT.

                He states to align his subject to the comps for comparison. I say align your comps to the subject to be ANSI and FNMA compliant.

                Your pretext was that he was fully ANSI compliant or something similar.

                I’m not knocking the guy. I don’t know him. I totally get what he’s saying but he can do exactly the opposite of what he said and satisfy what FNMA is seeking.

                His valuation and reporting idea is sound and expected but reversing the alteration will maintain ANSI and FNMA.

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                • Baggins Baggins says:

                  Stay on my page for this one.

                  All bi levels we deal with in CO have partially below grade area. If they’re all the way above ground level, they are 2 stories not bi levels in most scenarios.

                  Therefore ANSI FAQ on how to deal with disqualified above grade areas applies.

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                  • Avatar Tom B says:

                    a Bi-Level is not dis qualified Above Ground GLA.

                    It’s a combination of Below Grade and Above Grade. All qualified under ANSI.

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              • Avatar Tom B says:

                Your GIRD…..

                Here is what I see wrong.
                Subject.
                I am assuming the 2.1 baths are not all above grade. Maybe the same for the room count. Those numbers in GLA should only reflect ABOVE GRADE. Move other rooms numbers to below grade.

                Comp1 the way it is written it should be a 2000 Bi that is completely above grade.
                To compare apples to apples. move the lower level to the basement line as well the associated room count. This is to align to the subject. Tell your client whay you are doing this and that the areas sell for same price.

                Comps 2 and 3 missing room counts below grade and may need to have them removed from above ground GLA as well.

                Comp 3 extra basement – perfectly clear

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            • Baggins Baggins says:

              Tom B, your second grid image post not compliant with ANSI FAQ 16 in Colorado. Because you did not keep room counts in the improvements section which then auto transfer the rooms to the above grade room count, rendering the basement with zero room counts.

              Q16. How should appraisers account for rooms located in above-grade finished areas that do not qualify as GLA under the ANSI standard? While the ANSI standard is not definitive on this point, appraisers should include rooms located in above-grade finished non-GLA areas in the room counts (Total Rooms, Bedrooms, Bath(s)) in the Improvement section and in the Sales Comparison Approach grid of the appraisal report to comply with Uniform Appraisal Dataset requirements.

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              • Avatar Tom B says:

                “Tom B, your second grid image post not compliant with ANSI ”

                I know!!!! We are talkingg about an ALL ABOVE GROUND BI-LEVEL.

                That’s why I say DO NOT do it that way.

                I don’t think you understand what Q16 is speaking to.

                It is speaking to areas such as less that 5′ ceilings but maybe there is a wine cooler built into an alcove or room that doesn’t fit the 7′ 5′ deal. It’s a finished area but does not quality for GLA. So you put it on a different line.

                Wine Cooler Den —— +$30,000

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  108. Avatar BA says:

    Ok I think we are at a Waterloo here.

    1st “they want to get rid of us”…because they want to keep the fee they pay us.

    The proof of that is the new Hybrid. No ANSI there , No appraiser inspection and a Lacki to do the photos. Far less concern over accuracy or regulation or standards in those. CORRECT?

    So how is that more reliable and uniform than even the old non standard AMS that was used by some?

    Since they will be using non licensed people for a good portion of these there is less uniformity IMO. Correct?

    So can we agree they do not want to get rid of us because of our lack of uniformity?

    Second I stated in my first few posts here by saying IMO that there can not be a standardized measurement system and uniformity if everyone involved is not on the same page. Do we agree on that or not?

    The important issue that seems to be the point of contention here is “usual and customary or public(market) acceptance. ” I am not the Author of any book and did not do a single thing to contribute to the development of the USPAP standards or any of the AI’s decisions on anything. I do however read. I see market acceptance as part of the appraisal principles and practices all the time. I also see market adjustments a lot as well. I also see the definition of Market value includes the words BUYER AND SELLER. Why do WE make “MARKET ADJUSTMENTS” Where do they come from? I could go on and on but I think we all get the point Correct?

    Is it the consideration of these market issues or public acceptance and understanding we are not in agreement with Correct?

    Can we explore that for a minute?

    We know that the reporting requirements of USPAP require us to report the appraisal in a way that the reader can clearly understand. I am pretty sure this includes the person who pays for the report …Do we agree on that?

    Now I just got word back that a home owners feels I did not measure his home correctly . Now just so we are clear here I do and have used all ANSI methods to measure. I also explain the method in the report and label the sketch as well for open area and all else as stipulated in ANSI. This home was reported by the Auditors as 3200 sq ft and by the Realtor as 3400 sq foot. My measurements 2700 sf ft of GLA. I removed the open areas of the open to below as required, the 2 story great room area as required and all else as required. So yes I was accurate. The problem is no one else thinks so. Not the Auditor, nor the Realtor and NOT the home owner. Is that my fault or is it because non of these people use or understand the ANSI method requirements for accuracy? Now even though I know I am right here according to the standard method ANSI uses I still now have to get an attorney and answer the law suit that will be placed against me. Now my E&O will go through the roof even thought this will be dismissed or thrown out cause that’s what happens with E&O. So yes I know I am right but because the public and all others involved in the process are not familiar with and do not use and have not used the ANSI method I am now dealing with a mess. But I know my GLA is right!! (Now we will see if the lender gets named too and how they will react.)

    So my point is if we use a uniform method that the Public does not understand or except, the Realtors do not use and the Auditor’s are not required to report are we going to say accuracy is all that counts?
    For us the answer is yes of course. “We are right and everyone else is wrong.”

    DO WE AGREE ON THAT?

    But according to everything we (at least I ) have been taught, we also know that public perception and “Market Acceptance ” is considered as influential or as having weight in the process. Why else is there a public exposure time for USPAP changes? Really do you think the public form is like SOLD out when it occurs, standing room only”?

    Now the truth is if you showed USPAP to 100 people maybe 10+/- would understand all of it. So for USPAP it is not important that they (the public) understands all of it . it is to give the public a chance to agree or object to the additions or retirements of the standards and to learn what that means to them. Why do we do that?

    There’s a lot of information (History as well) that tells us that the lenders tend to do things that are adverse to consumers. That’s why there are old and new disclosures. closing statements and rights of rescission and all the other100’s of rules disclosing policy, procedures, costs, methods etc. Cause the public won the right to have these things because lenders were too ambiguous.
    Do we agree on that?

    Do we use the metric system here? What temperature scale do we use? Why? We know the universal systems are metric for all measures. That is the most reliable and universal standard Correct? It’s been around for a long… long time CORRECT ? So why don’t we use it?

    Do you think it has anything to do with the percentage of the public that does not use it, were not educated in it and really just don’t get it and DO NOT ACCEPT ITS USE! So what’s the big deal just use it. it does not change anything either its an accurate measurement and it is internationally accepted.

    IMO This is not the proper time and the proper way to just “make a change” without consideration and reviews of those it involves… for so many that have not had the time, education and acceptance, who will not react to it in any form of acceptance, we need to get ahead of the problems …we should clearly teach everyone before we simply do it. While “we know we are smarter than they are” that will not end the problems this new standard will create for us.

    Even a simple pamphlet on the ANSI measurements explained that is handed out at the loan application process will help. Heck LOs don’t even tell borrowers that Appraisers have to come inside and take pictures. I get questioned all the time about why the LO did not tell them that! All borrowers ask me for a copy of the appraisal and many call me and ask me what value I arrived at. So PLEASE don’t act like it does not matter what the public thinks, wants, needs or expects.

    No one tells the Realtors not to intimidate or harass the appraiser. No one teaches/learns or cares about the other person’s job, responsibility, or the process as long as its “not their JOB”

    The metric system is a fairly good example and I have not heard even one person here say we should all just start using that for an even greater INTERNATIONAL consistent method.

    I simply believe for uniformity and accuracy it has to be a standard for everyone in the field or any fields relating to Real Estate. Right now the URAR forms are not properly formatted for these lender required gridded areas. IMO.

    There are not enough lines in the grids to have pools, out buildings, other amenities AND the grids needed for this system. That will take time to implement, and it has to be uniform to be able to be considered by the people we are using it for/on. JMO

    Right now QC is not ready either. Or they would not be asking for revisions when the Auditor’s card does not match the appraiser’s measurements.

    So I guess we all have opinions. Are we considering ALL the angles and all the perspectives and all the people or just the one we ourselves see as “no problem here” “What’s the big deal??”Well it could be much more than you are considering!

    It is interesting to know that North Carolina does not use ANSI and their appraisers will not be using it either according to the ANSI BOOK now published per one of the States appraisers. Well if it is to establish uniformity then how can some States “opt out” ? and WHY ??. Evidently a lot of people don’t agree with this FNMA idea.

    Now are we getting a tiny bit more understanding of some of the concern, confusion or dismay with this situation that a few (or maybe a lot of people ) have? If not I really do not know any way anyone could break it done more clearly. It is just not as simple as it seems.

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      Holy smokes BA! You just blew my mind all over again. HLA. Heated living area. Never heard that one before although we do run across the good old must have one heat duct and be insulated for add on areas to be qualifiable gla, and the space must pass the unpermitted addition test of being heated, insulated, finished to a professional standard, and be able to become permitted if needed, if the space is not officially on the assessment record.

      Found this. https://bulletins.ncrec.gov/ncrec-residential-square-footage-guidelines-vs-ansi-standard/

      You’ve introduced a new concept to me. HLA. Is that why there is an apparent confusion with counting open areas?

      This post, https://appraisersblogs.com/ansi-measuring-standard-required-by-fannie-mae-in-2022/#comment-33237

      Do some appraisers really count the open area!? The hell? Looks like I’m sort of ANSI compliant already. Hope remains, ha! Who counts open space in the GLA line? That is more offensive and misleading than fictitiously reporting agla in the basement line to comply with ansi. I have never once in my life seen a realty agent report open space in their size listings either. Assessors always cut those areas out too.

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      • Avatar BA says:

        LOL…. that was a typo. I meant GLA.

        HLA is an OLD term not used so much anymore to my knowledge.
        But you are right heat and finish were required to consider it in GLA in attics.

        As to WHO counts open foyers, 2 story great rooms in GLA?……
        Realtors, Auditors and homeowners here do. I see it all the time.
        The guy was sold the home with the open to below area counted in the GLA. The Auditor’s card also counted it. That’s why he thinks I measured wrong. The sources he relied on to buy the home 3 years ago had more GLA than I did.
        The Realtors here NEVER cut out these areas. The Auditor’s card does now but they did not before they were required to get licensed about 7 years ago. The home was built in 97 before that.

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        • Baggins Baggins says:

          Hi BA. If you had a typeo I missed it. The HLA reference was from some state regulatory update doc I posted a link to in your state. Defining space as heated area is problematic without additional qualifiers. Let’s start arguing if we should include closets and mud rooms, oh boy. Not a good approach.

          That’s a real shame that agents and others can’t align with a uniform standard in your jurisdictions. And I can see a very clear need for a uniform standard applied in those situations. That’s where the functionality of the MLS members system comes in. MLS should define a standard and hold agents to it if there is that much variance, or at least give solid guidance. Our local MLS has penalties and denial of service clauses for agents if they purposefully cheat, use deceptive listing practices, do not update coming soon, available, under contract pending status, and closed status, in a limited time window like they have 5-7 days or less I think. MLS cleaned up our variable concessions reporting problems too, clearly defining what needs to be disclosed and what does not. Because DORA our regulatory agency issued guideline statements for those problems. If you have a problem with agents playing the field that way, write your regulatory agency and ask for a guideline clarification to be published. Then take that published item and demand the MLS group adhere. Problem solved. No FNMA or ANSI injection is necessary.

          One ponders if in places like where I am at, that’s why they defined ‘floor area’, rather than ‘heated living area’, or ‘above grade’.

          It’s like, dang, all this ‘grade and slope’ everywhere, defining all this different space is going to be complex and confusing. Let’s call everything garden and above grade as ‘floor space’ and reserve ‘basement’ for only 100% below grade. I LOVE THE WAY OUR ASSESSOR DOES IT! Agents like the methods too, we’re all on the same page! No confusion!

          I’ve never ever seen a foyer counted as agla, except in a few rare cases of accidental issues where measurements were difficult, even then the correction for space amount was minor.

          FNMA could have solved the problems like you deal with by simply writing into the selling guide; DO NOT COUNT FOYERS! It’s not rocket science. They did not need to shill for ANSI, become a book sales promoter, and impose non negotiable mandates across the entire country and ignore and go completely against local jurisdictional guidance already in existence to solve those simple recognition of space issues.

          If only it was a perfect world where all builders everywhere and all assessors everywhere, and all agents and market participators everywhere, and all terrain and climate and water table issues everywhere, were all the same.

          Let’s hold hands and sing the ANSI song! We are the world. We are the children. Everyone for a brighter day, let’s start buying this book. We are the world. ANSI is the only standard. Comply so you can keep working. Come on everyone join in! We are compliant. We are subservient. Come on and have a better day, just you and me and ANSI! Buy the book!

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  109. Baggins Baggins says:

    This third grid post. ANSI applied only to subject, but none of the comps.

    Because that’s the real deal here in CO, in some counties we will have no information on what portion could be broke out for apples to apples comparisons where we’d scoot garden level to the basement line. Look at that gross adjustment pump up like a weight lifter before we’ve even applied one single relevant adjustment. Bear in mind all these units are marketable, are recorded with assessors office, and have value at the exact same size and price points, except for a little bi vs tri variance and an inconsequential unfinished basement on the 3rd comp. Additionally the expression for the subject is now falsified, because I’ve fictitiously reported market recognized above grade ‘qualifiable floor area’, in the basement line to comply with ANSI.

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    • Avatar Tom B says:

      No, the subject data is actual fact and reproducible by any appraiser in the USA.

      It’s only known fact.

      If you can’t visually observer your comps, read assemnet records, read MLS, look at photos, amke phone calls to agents, etc.. and be able to break those sales down to similar ….. then just tell your client.

      Screw the percentages. That’s life in the big city.

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      • Baggins Baggins says:

        quote / “The subject data is an actual fact and reproducible by any appraiser in the USA.”

        ONLY IF they actually traveled in person to measure the subject home personally. Because there is no other data source to attain this parsed out lower garden level size vs the total assessor reported size, as the assessors only report all qualifiable floor area in one single reporting line, puts only truly 100% below grade basements in the basement reporting line, the assessor does not parse out garden level, and there is no online sketch available either.

        Screw the percentages!?!? I don’t feel like reposting the highly detailed commentary about how important the net/gross indicators are, how they are indicators of dissimilarity or similarity and why, how they can be used within the grid itself to extract market reactions for line adjustments, influence CU risk rating scores, affect client revision clarification and stipulation requests, provide reviewers simple easy tools to effectively judge an appraisers competency in comp selection and adjustment strategy, and were at the very heart of original FNMA 1004 form design as the most effective tool for both appraisers and reviewers before the age of automation. But that’s it in a nutshell. Discount the meaning of net/gross indicators at your own peril because it is the absolutely most effective point of defense available to any appraiser filling out the adjustment grid, it’s how you know your finger is on the pulse or if you missed the mark. In heated markets they also express the volatile nature of frenzied buyer activity if that sort of thing may be present, aka mismatching benchmarks to value. Additionally the net/gross adjustment indicator is something the laymen can and often does understand, the balance between net and gross is a concept which extends to just about every financial services industry out there and beyond.

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        • Avatar Tom B says:

          “quote / “The subject data is an actual fact and reproducible by any appraiser in the USA.”

          ONLY IF they actually traveled in person to measure the subject home personally. ”

          I honestly didn’t think anything you posted would surprise me. What exactly do you think this thread is about. It’s about appraisers going to houses and measuring them to a standard.

          WOW … that was a surprise.

          I give up. This just feels too troll-like.

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      To clarify; In this third grid photo I’ve also complied with ANSI FAQ #16 which has rendered a zero room count for the subjects basement area.

      Q16. How should appraisers account for rooms located in above-grade finished areas that do not qualify as GLA under the ANSI standard? While the ANSI standard is not definitive on this point, appraisers should include rooms located in above-grade finished non-GLA areas in the room counts (Total Rooms, Bedrooms, Bath(s)) in the Improvement section and in the Sales Comparison Approach grid of the appraisal report to comply with Uniform Appraisal Dataset requirements

      To clarify again; All bi levels in the areas I deal with have a lower level which is partially above grade and below grade. Per ANSI this renders the lower half to be below grade or disqualified from above grade reporting and subsequently required to be reported in the basement line instead of remaining mingled with truly above grade upper level reporting. Which in turn then scoots actual basements for a 4 level property like a tri w/ bas, to their own line item area which will also require manual calculations and I’ll lose the benefit of efficient software support.

      To clarify again; Our assessor where this subject and comps are located in Adams county. Where as per zoning coding building document reference I posted above, the assessor qualifies ‘all floor area’ as being attributable to a single reporting line which appraisers and realty agents around here just pop in and enter that matching size in the ‘above grade’ reporting line. Hence my call that if this ansi standard is to be applied, FNMA should pop in a third line grid adjustment line for garden level to account for these jurisdictional variances in size reporting and recognition.

      Hopefully we can get on the same page here.

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      • Avatar Tom B says:

        ANSI 3.7 Ceiling Height Requirements

        AKA . How to determine if a room above grade such as the top level of a small Cape Cod is valid for GLA or as ANSI defines it … to be included in Finished Square Footage… It is Finished Space or a Finished Room but not necessarily Finished Square Footage = GLA

        This is what FNMA Q16 applies to.

        Below 5′ ceiling height NOT included.
        7′ ceiling height required and must be 50% of entire room.

        My example — Assume home is 30′ long.

        7′ section = 3 x 30 = 90 sq ft
        5′ section = 10 x 30 = 300 sq ft.

        The 7′ section would need to be wider as it does meet the 50% rule. So now we have a finished room. We will call it a play room for the kids.

        It is NOT included in GLA but IS included in room count. It can be valued on a different line.

        This is what Q16 is trying to address. Not remotely associated with below grade issues. Contrary to what FNMA states, ANSI is actually very clear on this.

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  110. Avatar Tom B says:

    “Hopefully we can get on the same page here.”

    Dude… read Q16…. read the words…..

    “Per ANSI this renders the lower half to be below grade”

    AMEN BROTHER — the Lower Level is BELOW GRADE

    Q16 –How should appraisers account for rooms located in ABOVE-GRADE finished areas.

    If the LOWER LEVEL is BELOW GRADE it is NOT NOT NOT located in ABOVE-GRADE and therefore Q16 does not apply to reporting the lower level of a BI-LEVEL.

    Read the words….. “ACCOUNT FOR ROOMS LOCATED ABOVE-GRADE”

    The Lower Level of Bi-Level is NOT LOCATED ABOVE GRADE

    It’s located BELOW GRADE and you measure it and report the Sq ft and room count as finished and unfinished as it may be.

    This is more or less what you grid should look like. I’m not sure where all the rooms are located. Just making a reasonable guess.

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      Unfortunately in locations where we recognize ‘floor area’, (defined as everything not basement per our local jurisdictional guidance set forth by the county) as distinctly different from ‘basement’ (defined as 100% below grade), the grid will not read all clean like yours. Because we’ll be using different units of comparison and as demonstrated, we will be unable to attain the exact unit of comparison factors (the specific volume attributable to garden level), to have a matching unit of comparison.

      If we do have the garden level break out parsed data, as some assessors have, we’ll now have to spend more time separating this data. The basement line becomes the garden level line, and we’ll need a new line for the actual true 100% below grade basement. Because… (drumroll…) Garden level tracks at the exact same value and price factor as above grade, while true 100% below grade basements track with a notably lower price value basis.

      So we’re unable to co mingle the garden and basement in the basement line. Because in our markets, per the jurisdictional guidance here, garden is recognized as floor area which is acceptable to include alongside agla. The market agrees, participators buyers sellers agents and others pay the same amount regardless of specific type or how much garden there is or is not present. True basements as defined in our local jurisdictions track at a lower basis, often a half if finished or less if not finished.

      This value factor appears to be different in other jurisdictions, so in some areas it may be acceptable to co mingle the garden and basement in the basement 1004 line, because a similar adjustment basis will be present. In Colorado that similar basis for adjustment is not present. So in order to comply with ANSI FAQ #17, we have to engage in a fictitious reporting strategy in the literal sense, because we’re hijacking the basement line for garden, and putting actual basements in another line. I know you’ll say, ‘but it IS A Basement’, and I get that, where you are at gardens are basements. Where we are at they are not basements. There is conflicting definition and I proved that in links and copied definition statements too. Who is the ultimate authority on definition for the appraisal industry. A singular source or a variety of them? Whom guides the local market standards, the local jurisdictional authority or those far away without jurisdiction? How do people perceive the competency of the appraiser when the appraiser utilizes standards NOT set forth by the local jurisdiction?

      Here, we’ll do it your way, recognizing the literal as being below grade. You have something there, I agree. That does solve the no attributable room count dilemma, but it comes with a price.

      WOW! Now we have a 40% gross before we’ve even applied any meaningful adjustments anywhere else.

      And who needs those lower line items for other important data factors? I’ll just waste those trying to be somewhat clear about methodology.

      This is misleading reporting right off the bat. Expressions of real property in the appraisal grid which are contrary to local standards. Increased warnings and risk score as well. Welcome to appraiser incompetency in 2022. And this is a simple situation, I can line that up with a tri w/ bas vs ranch w/ unfin bas, a 2 on slab and a bi level if you’d like. The grid will be a mess and some examples I would think would start with an even higher gross adjustment amount. You know realty agents use net/gross in bpo’s too. Why don’t they hold to the ANSI standard so we could all be on the same page? Why don’t the assessors? Because those are not OUR LOCAL market standards. In CO, ANSI exists only in the mind of the appraiser and nowhere else.

      Q17. When the ANSI standard excludes finished areas, resulting in a smaller GLA, does this adversely affect the value of the property? No. The ANSI standard defines a transparent, professional approach to describing the subject, which gives appraisers a consistent starting point for the valuation analysis, but it says nothing about how appraisers conduct that analysis. Done correctly, adherence to the ANSI standard does not change the value of the property.

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      • Baggins Baggins says:

        Sorry, I slipped up with the data scooting and improperly reported true basement in the garden line.

        This is the corrected version. The tri level w/ basement has the basement completely separated from the garden level line now.

        It’s too easy to slip up with data scooting.

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        • Avatar Tom B says:

          This is what it should look like…. I’ll post the Side by side view next.

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        • Avatar Tom B says:

          Now the Side by Side where you can make all your adjustments.

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          • Baggins Baggins says:

            Tom I get that. I’m not dense nor feigning ignorance. But you are not taking a minute to recognize the problem. We do not have the data available to separate the garden level space, not here in my own back yard of Adams county we do not have that data. I clearly described the appraisal problem and clearly described the assessors approach to size recognition, and even posted the actual Adams assessors building permitting document so anyone can see this is truthful information. Adams recognizes ‘floor space’ (the totality of all agla and garden level in one lump figure), and also recognizes ‘basement’ (specifically defined in this jurisdiction as being 100% below grade.) Adams qualifies garden level as being acceptable to call as floor space, due to perimeter requirements of a certain size.

            Here is your daily pepsi challenge. I just used google maps to find one of the thousands and hundreds of thousands of bi’s and tri’s in my area, specifically Adams county. I picked one randomly.

            Here is the assessors page for this property.
            https://gisapp.adcogov.org/quicksearch/doreport.aspx?pid=0172107202009

            Here is the zillow page.
            https://www.zillow.com/homes/11172-dexter-drive,-thornton_rb/13004152_zpid/

            The address is 11172 Dexter Dr, Thornton.

            Can you please tell me what the garden level portion is? So I can fill the grid out as you suggest?

            Go ahead, google that puppy, check out the assessors record. There is no recent MLS records on file.

            Just run that single property as a comp in your grid. Show me how you are going to identify the garden level spacial amount. I’ll wait.

            Actually you don’t need to go through the exercise because I’ll save you time. The assessor reports the lower garden level as ‘floor space’ and includes that right alongside the mid and upper levels of this tri level house, in one lump sum number. There is no online sketch to access. There is no basement reporting line.

            Which takes us to the inevitable conclusion, we’ll have to include all that size data in the agla line, because there is no other way to parse the garden level out other than a straight up guess. Think you can competently estimate the bump out distance of the third level overhang? Can you tell me if there is a rear bump out there? Tell me the size dimensions of the garden, mid, and upper level.

            Again, we will only be able to apply the ansi standard to our subject in many of these scenarios and locations, because the ansi standard exists only in the appraisers mind and nowhere else. This will result in climbing gross adjustment indicators when our subject is ansi compliant, but our comps are not. Technically if this was a comp it would have an mls sales record. There would be some room dimensions there in the full 2 page mls broker listing. But those size dimensions would not be reliable or accurate, they could be off the cuff estimates, entered by an assistant, copied from another tri level which may have some design variance, they may not include other garden level space which is common such as a little hallway or a half bath which are commonly included on the lowest tri level space designs. Did the agent include or exclude stairs if they actually did measure? The measurement estimates for room dimensions on MLS could be interior based they could be exterior based, we would not know. Agents may find a way to skip that data entry portion. Agents are not required to have sketches, all the agent requirement is, to copy the assessors record for stated size into their listing. The MLS record will not contain a different ppsf metric indicator for agla vs garden.

            Bear in mind that tri level competes evenly with a bi level of it’s same size, and they sell at an equivalent price. So even if you could get the data for this bi and tri, by applying an ansi standard when that standard is not applied in this county or this state, you’d start off with net/gross indicators which climb upward before any actual market reaction adjustments are applied. Because there is no market reaction to the garden level when compared against above grade space. Then toss in that same tri level, but another example with a basement 100% below grade for four total levels. You can not co mingle your basement adjusts because they need adjusted at a different basis, therefor morphing the 1004 basement line into the garden level line, and requiring the appraiser to scoot the actual 100% below grade market recognized basement into it’s own line item. You lose the benefit of auto calculation tools in the side by side view. It’s a disaster no matter how you slice it because the adjustment value basis for garden is the exact same as for all other agla areas, and the basement adjusts at a half or less rate.

            The broken record skips on.

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            • Avatar Tom B says:

              No, I totally get. That’s why I say. Just don;t adopt ANSI. It’s not for you. Don’t do it.

              I got it the first time you posted it. The 20 repeats don’t make it any clearer.

              You have to admit though that the link you posted would not be comparable as it is not a sale.

              If it were a sale you would better data. Be able to call a real estate agent and —maybe– be able to get better data or maybe not.

              But either way seriously… Don’t adopt ANSI, it’s just not for you. I don’t think you are able to reason your way through it.

              Forget ANSI and rock on.

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              • Baggins Baggins says:

                Tom, Do you support the ability for appraisers to use the GXX001 exception code for bi’s and tri’s in locations where the assessor does not provide clear enough data to get a garden level break down?

                How exactly is a sales agent going to give me any more data after a property has closed and the deal is finished? What will a phone call to the agent reveal? There is no better data with a sale, other than a coincidental factor if the agent paid for sketch services to run along their listing, which that is a rare treat and 19 out of 20 times, no sketch in the listing. Otherwise the MLS listing provides photos, descriptive detail, and all property size data is copied from the assessor with automatic assessor data import tools the local MLS provides, and the agent may estimate room dimension entries if those are even present. We have really great consistency across the entire data spectrum for size, from assessor to mls to appraisal (pre april fools day), all of our total floor area and basement area size data matched no matter which professional you turned to. Not anymore.

                It does not seem like you have a good handle on this, as you keep posting grid photos which assume the appraiser can achieve a comprehensive break down of garden level space in Adams county. Which the garden level size data is not available in assessment records online or any other easily accessible verification source in Adams county. I guess people think it’s fair for Adams county appraisers to have to go back in time, always go to the county seat, pay for paper records, try to ask for sketches. You know what those sketches may often read like though; The mid and lower level are one big rectangle, and then a third shape area for the third level as it has a bump out and is wider. Even with the county sketch I could end up still needing to guess at where the garden ends and the mid level begins. I have seen that very sketch before.

                Your statement I’m not able to reason my way through this, that is an unnecessary statement. You’re talking to me about reasoning skills while dismissing the value of net/gross indicators. Disregarding the plain fact that in Adams county, garden level is not parsed away from other agla area. What if I am using a FSBO private sale where all I have is the assessment record?

                You’re right about ANSI not being a good fit for me. It was not a good fit for any of our thousand assessor employees, any of the tens of thousands of realty agents whom operate in this state, or our dozen local MLS groups. Which is why they do not use ANSI standards. We agree on that point. A hard line ANSI standard changes the game for everyone in Colorado.

                We do not have a choice but to adopt ANSI though, unless someone at FNMA comes to their senses and releases the mandated aspect of this. So no, ‘not adopting’ ANSI is not an option. But it was important and meaningful to illustrate here all the problems and confusion this ANSI hardline rule brings forth. In some areas this is a workable standard. In other areas it is not. Also illustrating the importance of voluntary engagements. Central planners do not always know what is best for everyone else.

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                • Avatar Chris says:

                  If you are using the same style house with the same general build style why would anyone have a problem determining the similar basement/lower level areas. Are you using colonials/Georgians to compare to split levels?

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                  • Baggins Baggins says:

                    Great question. Tri levels have so many design variances, so do bi’s. The garage can run front to back, or terminate with a living room behind. At times the garage has living area above a portion of the garage rear area where garage is set in front of living areas, but other times garage cleanly on the side. Sometimes in a bi the garage can be built into the lower level, so it functions more similarly to a tri level or like a 2 story with a half sized bottom level, other times the garage is all the way to the side of the unit and you get a perfect up/down size balance. They can be long rectangles or more like big squares. Some tri’s may have little hallways on the garden level leading to garage door and some have a half bath or full bath on the garden, others not. Some tri’s have perfect matching garden and third level, other times they cut into other space or run the upper over the garage a little extra for the upper level w/ bump outs, and they’re not evenly balanced. Other tri’s are more utilitarian with just a living room and garage on the lower level. Due to terrain variety and sloping challenges some tri’s have the rear sliding or french door sets on the mid level coming out of the dining, some on the lower level. Some bi’s have upper level bump outs and that can be front rear or both or not at all. There is just so many variances in design, one needs an assessor sketch or to measure in person to have a solid handle on spacial break down. Sometimes in the exact same neighborhood you can have a tri w/ bas where all 3 finished areas are above ground, but it’s competing counter part has the lower tri level as garden partially below. This is why our standards are the way they are, to present fair size recognition balance with functional livable space given our constant design differences which were necessary to build with fluctuating water tables on uneven land.

                    And again, not all assessors parse the garden level size. Adams county does not, that’s a fact. Because we use a ‘floor plan area’ approach. In the Adams zoning coding documents they qualify garden level as being acceptable to lump into the floor plan area for one singular space figure, and only report something as a basement if it’s 100% below grade. Most assessors operated that way but lately some have tried to parse the garden level out for more spacial break down. They may apply this to the record retroactively so they don’t always get it right and you’ll have confusing data like multiple levels all noted as the same level when they’re really not. It comes down to just a person at the assessment office trying to clear though so many paper based sketch records a day, scan those in, update the online data record. Most assessors went online mid 90’s to early 2000’s in CO, but some still struggle to get everything online. Some provide sketches, some do not. It was probably a manpower and budgetary consideration if they committed the effort to do that.

                    I’m not sure what a colonial or georgian is, I don’t think we have those around here, at least not many. Colorado had prolific housing expansion post ww2 era. I just googled those. Boy those would be easy to measure! I think we have georgian imitations, they’re like special order but appear amid tract housing infrequently, with matching space compared to others so they’re like georgian mini’s if I had to guess at some descriptive. I viewed a photo of one with a really sloping roof, I imagine that cuts into interior spaces somehow, that would be a good example of where an ANSI standard for height would be a good application.

                    https://www.homestratosphere.com/colonial-houses/

                    Wow! Are those residential houses? It appears so. What the heck with ‘salt box’ style? They all look like some dixieland mansion or something, if I’m using proper terminology, I do not know. We don’t have those around here in the high altitude areas.

                    It’s pretty straight forward with the majority of housing stock here in Colorado, we only have a small body of pre 1950’s housing stock and most of that is in the urban areas, or the occasional pioneer farm home which still stands although it’s land size is likely reduced as suburbia building encroached on the areas. And we have nutty A frames in the mountains, let me find a photo of one of those for you. ‘The gnome home’. That’s not what they’re really called, they’re A frames. They sell them like prefab kits and such to this day. But the old ones were even more slope like little skinny gnome hats. They did that due to very harsh high altitude conditions with incredible snow loads which can be dry snow or wet snow which can exponentially increase the snow’s weight. To prevent roofs from caving in they have extreme slope roof and front overhang eves so snow stays off the front door and slides down the side. Modern ones have metal roofs so the snow can slide. It’s a hazard for large structures in the mountain because when that snow releases it all comes down at once and you can get crushed, so they may build them higher and the eve wider to go past the structure quite a bit. In some areas you can get truly ‘snowed in’.

                    Then we have luxury mountain stock down to silly tiny old one room cabins. Mountain is a completely different ball game than suburbia. Most populated suburban areas are just modern or semi modern tract houses, ranches, 2’s, bi’s, tri’s. There are a few classic victorians in Boulder and some Tudor and classic Craftsman houses in Denver. Those Craftsman houses are something else, wish they’d still build them like that. Every one of them has a glorious huge front covered porch elevated, round about design function, high ceilings. Their down side is cramped basement space often 6 ft, sometimes 5. Those are truly raised ranches.

                    We don’t really deal with ceiling height measurement concerns here in Colorado, that’s pretty rare. We have a lot of garden level split home style stock which that garden level space is universally recognized as being tied to above grade space. There is like this consistent ratio of mostly splits, occasional ranches, and varied presence of basement or not for 60’s through 80’s stock.

                    After that builders turned more to two story and just ranches. People still like the splits so their value factors continue to fly, as they’re not being built anymore. The sad part about housing growth in CO is we have water scarcity issues which are a real problem, so nothing new gets big yards anymore and the side to side setback limitations keep decreasing. Hello neighbor! People will be planting trees in their tiny yards on the outer edge and neighbors will do the same, trees compete and it’s just silly. There is a very high demand for 70’s to 2000’s stock because those are not HOA PUD. Where as all new development is always HOA PUD as the county approval now seeks to offload infrastructure and utility maintenance costs onto home owners with varied quasi private and/or municipal HOA approaches. End up dealing with two HOA’s.

                    Now builders are full on luxury bigger better over the past few years. High density development is taking hold. But people still perceive Colorado in a certain way and the bi and tri mid 70’s sort of stock with big quarter acre yards continue to be in high demand. If you want the big yard and you do not want an HOA in your life, perhaps a real mailbox in your yard instead of a community box, you have to buy older stock. Buyers compete for these things and they do not care if it’s a bi or a tri or some other weird design, if the livable space is there, they compete with mostly even keel value basis. In many neighborhoods of this age there is a random factor, one home a 2 story, the next a tri, the next a ranch, the next a bi, etc. All their ppsf metrics are in fair alignment, although the ranch tends to track higher ppsf agla, and lower basement. If you’re on a budget, reach for the ranch. If you have money to spend target a tri bi or 2 and then cross your fingers that tri or 2 will also have a partial basement, presence of those is random too. We have fluctuating water tables so sump pump and pits are common and builders have to call the design based on the individual lots soil conditions and water table readings which can change block by block in some locations. Bentonite and swelling soils are common.

                    This has been a lot of fun guys, great information here. Thanks.

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                    • Avatar Tom B says:

                      Perfect example of Above Grade NON-GLA. from your link…

                      The space is finished but the ceiling is too low to count as Finished Square Foot = GLA

                      Loft = Finished Space NOT Finished Square Footage and thus NOT GLA per ANSI.

                      This is what FNMA FAQ Q16 is addressing.

                      https://www.homestratosphere.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Spacious-white-walled-loft-bedroom-with-dark-wood-ceiling-and-flooring.jpg

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                      • Baggins Baggins says:

                        That’s great. Glad that ceiling height issue a non issue in the suburbs. I picked that link randomly from the net for stylistic conversation.

                        FNMA should consider a fourth line in the appraisal grid. Ceiling limited space or something.

                        If we’re going full literal on everything with no deviance or variance allowance, why not clearly categorize everything with absolute clarity?

                        Above grade line.

                        Garden level line.

                        Fully below ground level basement line.

                        Limited ceiling height not to ANSI standards line.

                        Every single one of those has the potential to have a different value basis in different market settings and locations, so why are they not defined individually on the FNMA form?

                        Nitpicking the details… But in a perfect world with a perfect form which emphasized accuracy but not necessarily efficiency, the 1004 would read more like a cost approach table and we would fill out every single detail for the subject and comps to the best of our ability and apply several pages worth of individual line item adjustments. Be careful what you wish for.

                        By providing a profitable incentive to the ANSI group this is essentially opening up a new market for further refinement of details and expanded mandatory approach scope. Because it will be profitable for them to implement that. Be careful what you wish for.

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                        • Avatar Tom B says:

                          “Every single one of those has the potential to have a different value basis in different market settings and locations, so why are they not defined individually on the FNMA form?”

                          You do realize your software has spaces for all that right? If not you simply make a little spreadsheet and link it up. Or write it in by hand.

                          So yeah, if it makes you happy you could have lines for just about anything. Do your calculations in the spreadsheet and then plug them into lines such as finished space non-GLA.

                          Where would you put everything if you had a property with Barns, run-ins, indoor riding arena, a pool, pool house, sports court, home theater with actual acoustic treatment.

                          I mean you have to break all that down and consider it but you don’t need 12 more lines in the form to report it.

                          We get that you don’t like change.

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                          • Baggins Baggins says:

                            Quite right. That’s one of my sayings. Had enough change already to last a lifetime, please slow it down.

                            One of our strengths is our ability to navigate our own systems competently and define different operational procedures as the local situations may entail. Rewriting them for the sake of doing something is just a waste of human energy and manpower. The USA is a collective group of 50 states. Each state is supposed to drive it’s own due process for what works best for them.

                            You know, back to the basics. I’m a traditionalist. We can be thankful for those whom seek change and those whom seek tradition at the same time. There can be fair balance if we all work together and don’t boss each other around, respect each others points of views and way of going about things. Adhere to the principals of voluntary engagement which prioritizes individual liberty.

                            Going to start a go fund me page for my copy of the ANSI book. Ha! I don’t want to buy this on principal because they’re trying to force me to do it. There could have been this cool marketing blitz about all the benefits of this but instead they just cut immediately to mandates. That’s not how a free market system is supposed to work.

                            In all seriousness though, the ANSI work group was not diverse enough and did not leave enough time for public feedback before this was implemented on the GSE level. And what gives with the GSE’s not having a uniform approach? That is telling because most other policy changes run right down the line, Fannie, Freddie, HUD, VA. When things work for the benefit of all, they tend to be widely accepted.

                            Tom you’re the man, I really appreciate your time.

                            Thank you.

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                • Avatar Tom B says:

                  “Tom, Do you support the ability for appraisers to use the GXX001 exception code for bi’s and tri’s in locations where the assessor does not provide clear enough data to get a garden level break down?”

                  https://appraisersblogs.com/ansi-measuring-standard-required-by-fannie-mae-in-2022/#comment-34032

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            • Baggins Baggins says:

              What I’m really hoping for Tom, is to break past this use of basement and garden level descriptive language difference to express the point, that appraisers in many locations like Adams county will not be able to apply ansi standardized measurement to their comps, but will have to apply that to the subject.

              This will result in false net/gross indicators, abolishing the functionality of this important tool which is meant to indicate the level of similarity vs the level of dissimilarity of the subject vs each individual comp.

              Then when you see what I’m seeing, you may hopefully say; I get it now, you will not be able to apply an ansi standard to your comps. You’ll at that moment see what I’m seeing here in Adams county.

              Then I’ll say; Do you still support the idea of an ANSI blanket standard without exception in states like CO where we already have a uniform standard and recognize ‘floor space’ as including garden level?

              Then I’ll ask an additional question: Will you support my request for FNMA to include bi and tri levels in the list of home types where the GXX001 exception code can be used?

              That’s the argument in a more brief format. Sorry it took me a while to form this in a more simple comprehensive manner. We went through a lot of back and forth because of the applications of descriptive language differences, which are obviously not the same in some locations. Some locations recognize garden as agla space, others do not. Some real property market place settings put value on garden level exactly the same as agla space. Other market settings apply a lessor basement value to that space. In some locations builders helped promote a higher value and price basis for garden by always furnishing them with equivalent finish quality, in other locations the garden was presented to market as a basement, often unfinished. In some climates like desert high altitutude dry Colorado that garden level is really comfortable and appealing, so the market recognizes this as equivalent space, sometimes even better space than above grade areas, for comfort factor reasons. In other locations the markets apparently do not give as much credit to garden levels (which is a new concept to me but I can see how that could happen elsewhere.)

              Thank you.

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              • Avatar Tom B says:

                First off as I mentioned way back the exception code is not GXX001.

                Yes in your scenario I would still support ANSI.

                What I would…..

                A. Measure my subject to ANSI.

                B. Gather my comps.

                C. If there is no way in hell I can find any accurate data and the only figures I have for all the comps is a simple overall sq ft figure such a 1437, 1693, 1587, 1399, etc… I would do the following.

                D. Write a paragraph fully describing the subject per ANSI such that FNAM had teh true ANSI figures and it could be reproduced by any other person using ANSI standards. … then

                E. I write a paragraph informing the user of the report that I was completely unable to get sq ft breakdowns for comps and as such I am reporting the subject in a similar fashion for apples to apples comparison because my research indicated the entire area sells equally in the market.

                FNMA can then do one of three things.
                1. Yes we that. We will put your ANSI figures in our database.

                2. Thank you, will you leave the report as is but also place the exclusion code in the additional features section.

                3. Please change your grid reporting to reflect ANSI. Readjust as needed. Do not be concerned about the high line, net, gross adjustment figures.

                My guess is they will go with 1 or 2.

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                • Baggins Baggins says:

                  Thank you Tom.

                  That is helpful commentary.

                  That is my game plan, exactly what you said. Probably with a little extra support pre ansi and after ansi applied, so I can clearly illustrate the net/gross should not have climbed and I did make competent selections. I’m all about proving competency in my reporting and adhering to the principals of protecting the public trust and integrity of the appraisal profession.

                  It’s just a shame that this is imposed on a region where we already have universally accepted comprehensive standards which have long since brought our entire real estate industry in this state into a reasonably sound alignment. Because in other states it appears there really is a lot of malfeasance and deception going on, counting open space areas as agla, that was a shocking revelation to learn such activity is still happening in this age of improved data relay and technical capability. I agree with the principal of universal standard in any specific region where real property exists. I just do not agree with the method of applying this standard as it is currently imposed as a one size fits all.

                  Thank you. I learned a lot about what happens in other states. Illuminating.

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                  • Avatar Tom B says:

                    “I’m all about proving competency in my reporting and adhering to the principals of protecting the public trust and integrity of the appraisal profession.”

                    After looking at a few listings, reading assessor data, reading how you guys do reports. If I had to buy a home in Colorado I would have ZERO trust in the residential real estate market from top to bottom.

                    You people are living in the dark ages with regard to real estate data and transparency.

                    Assessor
                    —- Single GLA figure, no decks, porches, overhangs, no sketches, no dimensions.

                    Realtor
                    —- Copy assessor and add fluff. No additional specifics.

                    Appraiser
                    —- Follow the lead the assessor and real estate agents have blazed.

                    That is a recipe for deception not trust.

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                  • Avatar Tom B says:

                    I do agree with Chris too though.

                    If though the data sucks. If you have bi-levels at 1900, 2000, 2100 etc.

                    You measure yours are 2035.

                    I would report the Up / Down in grid and divide the comps in half. It’s all the same value so even if you miss by a little it won;t matter. You could have 1050 up and 950 down on the 2000 home in reality but if you split it 1000 / 1000 the dollars are come out the same.

                    AND the report will show the subject as ANSI in the grid.

                    Then just explain it. But I can look at a lot of those sales and they are just rectangular boxes. One looked like it had 24sq ft overhang on top level.

                    So I’m not buying the “it can’t be done in Colorado” line. That’s simply not true.

                    As I showed earlier. Appraisers in Colorado do have access to the data they need in some areas.
                    https://www.countyoffice.org/property-records-search/?q=106+Hoedown+Circle%2C+Fountain%2C+CO%2C+USA#structure

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                    • Baggins Baggins says:

                      Are we still at it? All right, let’s do it.

                      You can’t guess at data. Guessing at spacial data allotment is not a recognized technique. One agent called this ‘stepping off the size’, we would call that ‘eyeballing it’. Recent sales matter and if you limit yourself to only comping bi vs bi, you’ll miss out on helpful tri sale data, vice versa. With monthly appreciation moves which are sometimes 10k to 20k now and then, recent selections matter more than stylistic matching. I miss the slow market years ago when I could keep it simple and just comp bi vs bi, etc. It’s not that way anymore. CO has one of the strongest growth rates for new housing development and market appreciation in this country.

                      Tri levels compete evenly regardless of their design factor, if they have that usable space. Some fully above ground, others have gardens. They all sell for the same so there is no need to adjust them out differently. Adjustments are intended for ‘market reaction’ expression, and are not there so we can do busy work with zero tangible benefit. If there is no market reaction, there is not supposed to be any adjustment. Basic valuation principals. And as detailed, tri’s can have varying size and design factors which is hard to estimate. I’ve never heard of a recognized method where an appraiser eyeballs the size for his adjustments. Verify, verify, verify. Multiple data sources are better than one.

                      No faith in Coloradoans? Oh come on, we have a universal standard and all agents assessors MLS systems and appraisers are on the same page. If you were here participating you’d understand, we tend to work well together and are not wasting time arguing about counting stairs or foyers or whatever. Appraisers don’t just follow up the trail others blazed, although at times it can be that simple and straight forward if the agents have performed their jobs competently with due diligence. Other times the existing data cohesion and reliable systems with universally recognized units of measurement are very helpful. If the agents pushed price value factors beyond what is supported by the market, it’s pretty obvious and simple to prove. We have good consistency which frees up time and energy for other client service needs and keeps liability contained.

                      There is usually a fair degree of trust and team spirit effort among agents lenders and appraisers in Colorado. DORA state regulatory body is no joke, they keep everyone in line and sanction those whom commit to deceptive practice. DORA boards even fired the director once for the appearance of impropriety even though none actually existed. But generally they’re fair and if you abide the local standards with due diligence they’re in the back ground. When there is contention or disagreement they issue clarification statements. Our regulatory body publishes quarterly updates which keeps all of us in the loop. When there is dysfunctional process somehow, they mandate new forms and disclosure approaches. We also have a universal standard for purchase contracts, very helpful and well thought out.

                      The hot sun. The high altitude. The wildly swinging temperatures where it can be frozen at night and baking by day certain times of the year. That takes a toll on exterior structures. Snow, wind, hail rain. Rip the dang gutters and adornments right off your house, snow fall takes my rear light out every other year because I don’t have a large enough roof eve. Decks have short life spans, so do fences. Concretes can crack with one season of mis management. There is a high cost of maintaining exterior structure here and although there is a permitting process and recognition of that, the assessors often do not record all the ancillary stuff. Information on that is available with permit track history and by way of the building department if you absolutely have to have it.

                      From a citizens perspective we appreciate this lack of attention to those recording features. Because we get taxed less. It’s important to understand the cultural difference. This was pioneer territory and still bears resemblance to that in many policies. It’s none of their dang business if we have a little deck or porch or whatever and although permit processes exist, unless it’s a big project the city/county authorities are usually not overbearing breathing down everyones neck to prove compliance. People go off code all the time and they’re never really any tear down order for many ancillary items.

                      This state tends to have more focus on the home itself and regulating contractors, so for matters of the home, there is rather strict oversight. You can simply not find an electrician or plumber to go off code unless they’re your personal friend, even then they’ll probably refuse. DORA is strict on contractors so we do have good protections for home owners in this regard of many vendor servicer applications. For what you do in your yard, that’s your business. And you can just learn that data from listing photos so what’s the big deal with fine detail of assessment reporting? I guess that’s my take on this. It seems like bureaucratic overkill to document every last thing, I’d rather have one less county employee and lower taxes. Ha! It’s a typical sentiment.

                      We’ve got it figured out over here and do not appreciate the external meddling. Sounds like some other areas need a complete regulatory overhaul, something an FNMA applied ANSI standard without any actual jurisdiction over these locations is simply not going to successfully accomplish. ANSI looks like a paper tiger. Don’t want it. Don’t need it. Don’t appreciate it. You don’t win trust by running the wrong direction on the field. If the CO NAR community wants it, they’ll implement ANSI on the MLS level and assessors will be forced to follow. Otherwise, to apply this standard only to appraisers is counter productive to the cause of improving credibility and consumer confidence in the process. We have an existing universally accepted method in this state that works and works well. There is nothing wrong with agents assessors and appraisers being on the same page using similar methods, in fact it works very well. You guys are reaching for something we already have. Think about it.

                      Is there an exception process?If the appraiser is unable to adhere to the ANSI Standard, the appraiser will provide the code “GXX001 –” The wording and approach to this is just ameture hour. We’re able to adhere. But it makes very little common sense to do so. Especially given the factual situations we will not be able to apply ANSI to our comps in every location and this will drive false net/gross indicators and other problems. Even if we did have all the sketches, and can apply the ANSI standard, which in some areas that is available, this still does not answer the question of why apply a market reaction adjustment for a bi vs a tri when there is no expression of market reaction difference there in the first place? ANSI in this scenario is just busy body work with no tangible benefit to anyone here in this state. Whipping us all around for their government systems and book sales, it’s going to confuse consumers. Where is ethical principal?

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                      • Avatar Tom B says:

                        “No faith in Coloradoans? Oh come on, we have a universal standard and all agents assessors MLS systems and appraisers are on the same page.”

                        Well no, not all. You keep forgetting that assessor that breaks down the actual features of the property. You know, the one I posted twice and you pretty much dismiss.

                        Your cozy situation with agents and assessors and ‘mums the word’ on actual physical characteristics. Isn’t that sort of how the mob works?

                        “There is usually a fair degree of trust and team spirit effort among agents lenders and appraisers in Colorado.”

                        Like the ‘good ole boys club’. Sounds like a sweet deal. Go team go! Forget that I’m an independent unbiased appraiser, I’m a team player too.

                        At least it’s nice to know the electricians and plumbers work to a national code.

                        I’m not sure what part of the Universe your universal code came from, but something tells me it came from a far away planet out there past Saturn.

                        I hounded the local MLS here for decades to add square foot fields for basements, unfinished, etc..
                        the reason why was because the assessor would have simply the whole basement.

                        The Agents would list AbvGnd + Bas as a single figure. 2500 sq ft. — Reality was 2000 + 500 fin.

                        First Floor 1000, Second floor 1000. Basement 1000 with 500 of that finished.

                        Now they still report
                        Finished Sq Ft = 2500
                        Bas. Fin = 500
                        Bas. Unfin. = 500

                        Now I have an actual verification source. I can equate the assessor to the agent.

                        I can not believe that appraisers in CO are not screaming at the appraisal board to pressure the MLS systems and assessors to report factual data.

                        If you are an example of other CO appraisers it sounds like nope, we just live a happy little life together.

                        It’s mind boggling. I get why the agents and assessor don’t care. Especially the agents. The assessor would probably actually like to have a nice data system.

                        Not directed at you personally but you have mentioned over and over that –all of Colorado– does it your way. I assume all of CO is pissed at FNMA and wants to continue to keep things very simple. A single GLA figure and let ‘er rip.

                        That boggles my mind. If it were 1990 ok, 2022. Just unbelievable.

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                        • Baggins Baggins says:

                          This is an unexpected tone although I probably deserve it. Let’s get together with a team effort instead. There is nothing wrong with appraisers and agents communicating and working well together. People trust us because we are trust worthy.

                          If people were screaming for change, that change would have already happened. We’re doing pretty great and I have not heard about many issues over the past several years. Our state even implemented a group insurance access for EO for appraisers and realty agents program for cost savings. They’ve continued to refine rules for all three sections of mortgage realty and appraisal. Uniform contracts with approved forms is really great.

                          I have not dismissed your example it’s just from El Paso across the state where I have never and will never operate. Subbed in relevant examples which I could talk about with more experience instead. And qualified the nature of data availability, some areas fully yes, other areas, not as much.

                          The assessors here can’t keep up. Although they all expanded and filled more desks, it’s just government, reactive to demand rather than getting ahead of it. That’s normal.

                          The note of being on the same page specifically details sizing, and after that, it can be a little random what the assessor chooses to present. If professionals or the public relying on this data wants more, they can always ask. Because we do not operate under an ANSI standard, parsing garden levels has never been a problem before.

                          Again the ‘qualifiable floor area’ approach works very well for the housing stock we have here in this state. It appears to be much more comprehensive than the ANSI standard. The question of who defines the language and the presence of different explanations of what constitutes a basement can go either way, one can selectively search and find definitions that fit the intended narrative. I learned something new about our local counties and you know what, I do appreciate the way they approached spacial recognition. I’m thankful they did it this way and we do not deal with some of the issues that appear to vex appraisers in other states.

                          I will reiterate how this is well functioning too, because within bpo and appraisal grid work, our net/gross reflections are true expressions of material difference and do not arbitrarily provide false indicators of difference because we have had to juggle back adjustments for technical reasons. I think the story of two tri levels next door, one with some below grade area, the other without is a good example. Because they both sell for the exact same amount so there is no justification of applying adjustments against them. Every single adjustment that hits the appraisal grid should be for market reaction items. If there is no market reaction, no adjustment should be applied. That’s my opinion on it.

                          Our appraiser count I think is just over 2k. Our largest realty organization CAR Colorado Association of Realtors has I think 25k or more and I think nearly 30k licensed sales agents in the state. And there is a network of many other smaller orgs and groups. Our state has 5m+ residents although nobody knows for sure there has been so much influx. You’re going to continue to have a tough time crafting an argument that we are incompetent or a good old boys club because the body of professionals here is quite substantial. We have sufficient checks and balances in place. If these groups need change to happen, they have the ears of legislators to materialize necessary change. But if they choose to do so is our business, not the business of the federal government.

                          I’ll qualify for BA here. I have no financial interest in ANSI, FNMA (other than GSE appraisal orders), am a true 1099, and nobody paid me to be here and I have not coordinated with anyone else regarding statements made. My opinions are mine and mine alone and may not necessarily reflect opinions held by other professionals institutions or groups. (I would think that at least a few agree though. The disappointment and confusion with the NCAREA groups ANSI class which had been posted to YTB was palpable and obvious. Gasps of disbelief and head shaking… There was one guy whom said it’s workable and you’ll get used to it.)

                          If you want a truly well functional measurement standard, I would think a better approach is a standard applied to each specific type of home in every age category. We’re going to need a lot more standards! We need the flexibility to be adaptive to various property types in different settings. We should not discredit something already in existence and suddenly describe it differently just because someone elsewhere far away does it differently. Sometimes the traditional way of getting a job done is the best way to get a job done. Other times modern new methods work better. But there is no fixed rule one way or the other that can be guaranteed to bring optimal results. When the wind blows, bend like the reed.

                          Truly when it comes to measurement, the appraiser should adhere to the standards defined within that specific county. The basis for uniformity already exists, as the county has already prescribed and published their own standards. Like a sheriff is the law of the land in a county, that counties lead assessor calls the shots for real property. If you end up in another county, you should know their standards. There is insufficient justification for reinventing the process of defining recognized spaces. “measure to the standard prescribed by the local municipality in that jurisdiction”. I just accomplished the same result of reliable reporting in a single sentence.

                          I like how you cut a joke at the end. I’m not sure dude, these are just my personal observations. This is my perception of what appears to be happening. NAR is a reflection of this reaction, they did write a letter asking for a delay of the implementation of ANSI to provide more time for education and feedback. I searched the NAR professional classes list and could not find one single class on ANSI measurement methodology. But also I’m not a realtor and am not sure I was searching properly, they did have like 26k different classes I think.

                          For the other presumptions, sorry if we’ve got off on the wrong foot or something. And we can cut jokes and and have fun while still being professionals. Or we can get yelled at, brush it off, and still be professionals. We can all go along to get along and still be independent. Independence is key, and the very nature of being independent is contrary the the dictatorial approach of required mandates. Sure there needs to be industry cohesion and we can benefit from rules and standards. Those standards should not be applied if they do more harm than good. Face facts, in Colorado a garden level is not a basement. That is our objective truth. Well, that used to be the case… The market recognizes this truth even if FNMA and ANSI does not. Which force is more powerful? You know what they say; from the eye of the beholder.

                          Thank you.

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                          • Avatar Tom B says:

                            “This is an unexpected tone although I probably deserve it. Let’s get together with a team effort instead. There is nothing wrong with appraisers and agents communicating and working well together. People trust us because we are trust worthy.”

                            Possibly mis-read but when I suggested you contact an agent to get more data on a property you responded with basically why would you want to do that, what could they possibly have to offer after the closing.

                            I used to have to do that all the time before we got better data. The agents can clarify GLA, They can tell you about funky floor plans. quality levels. etc.. So I read that to mean you basically look at the photos and that’s it.

                            Granted a bi-level is pretty straight forward but around here someone could buy one of those colonials like you saw for $750K and then spend $300K more renovating and altering. You get a 100 or 120 year old home that has had that done a couple times and you can’t figure why do the numbers say one thing and the price says something else. The agents are the only ones that can describe it to you…. and that’s after closing.

                            Anyway… at least you got the joke. I thought you’d appreciate that. It was meant in jest.

                            But I’m a “more data” person. More makes my life easier. Everybody measuring and reporting the same makes my life easier.

                            Oh well, if you could get rid of that snow situation out there I could move out there and just specialize in Bi-Levels.

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                            • Baggins Baggins says:

                              You know, agents can take some pretty good photo sets, learn a lot. Every time I have to ring agents lately, long conversations. I try to only deal with data I can qualify right there without the call. Limit the calls to pending UC status as it’s just so routine for over list offers lately, can’t even use a UC unless it’s verified. My last one was +$80,000 over list. Colorado is bonkers, bananas, excessively spicy. They’re trying to get in, we’re trying to get out. Fingers crossed our liberty destroying progressive governor will finally be ousted but not likely. We may move to an entirely different state.

                              Snow in CO is not all bad. Here today, gone tomorrow at lower elevations. In the mountains though, end up on the shady side you’ll wonder if it’s day or night and the snow never melts. It’s the summer heat too. All I have to do is step outside for two minutes in July and I light up like a marshmellow over a campfire. I got a sunburn just prepping the garden last week.

                              This is it, our biggest garden year ever. Last year we had a tremendous harvest and actually learned to can and such. How rewarding, true organic and we used them for stews and spaghetti all winter long. Going big old patch of tomatoes this year, trying potato towers for the first time, going to grow the scorpion trinidad peppers again. Watch the hell out for those evil bastards! I can’t turn away! Once you tried a trinidad fresh off the plant you’ll never think of other hot peppers the same. One tiny pepper can light up a dozen people, no joke. Here I’ll snap a photo for you. Hoping to toss in some tiny bird hotels to attract chickadees. We have a woodpecker terrorizing us every morning. Getting more ladybugs in the can and hoping we can snatch one of the praying mantis egg pouches before they hatch or sell out. Organic gardening 101. We’ve been at it many years but finally are getting the hang of it. Now I’m learning about seed germination because with a garden this big, buying ready grown is going to be too expensive and I’m hardly working. News on the Fed front says expect continued rate rises to the point of a market recession. Buckle up! We keep a year or two pantry food on hand to be on the safe side and have a stack of toilet paper from the floor to the ceiling. Not going to fall for that one again. The down side of free time is I’m constantly running out of beer. ha!

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                              • Avatar Tom B says:

                                “scorpion trinidad peppers”

                                I think my overall favorite is a real Jamaican Scotch Bonnet. They are hot but flavorful. almost with a blueberry / citrus after taste. If you put too much in a meal you can usually calm it down like in a soup or something. Add more ingredients.

                                “The down side of free time is I’m constantly running out of beer. ha!”

                                That’s a sin. Unless of course you have some nice rum.

                                I appraised a guy’s place one day and he was growing some Carolina Reaper’s. At my age I have a hard time convincing myself I want to eat something that is basically a weapon. I might grow some hot peppers this year. I think the Home Depot even had the Carolina Reapers last year.

                                I’ve been buying pepper spice lately. I like to make a mix that you put on whatever your meal is.

                                Aleppo
                                Urfa
                                Sichuan Pepercorn — not really pepper. Eat some by itself. It will numb your mouth. Really strange.
                                White pepper
                                All the Tellicherry colors
                                Japanese Togarashi

                                Once I get my mix down right I’ll send you an autographed bottle. You can sell it on eBay and be able to afford a copy of the ANSI standard without feeling guilty. |jk|

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  111. Remember Fannie/Freddie are not the know all be all, if your engagement letter does not require you to follow the new ANSI then you don’t have to.

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      Check this out! GXX001!

      Now we’re cooking with gas again!

      Note the true expression of net/gross, as the MARKET REACTION dictates an even balance. With a side note.

      I’ve complied with local jurisdictional standards. I have reported in a manner customary and familiar to all the local participators in my market location. I have not falsely driven gross adjustments upward. Instead of looking like a fool I look like a pro again. Whew! Barely made it! Another appraisal miracle. Winning!

      1
      • Baggins Baggins says:

        Forgot the A frame link. Those are interesting homes. And they have this mysterious quality where they can scale up or down. Quite interesting. I would never want one but some people appreciate them.

        Thank you.

        This is interesting it’s like a wedding site link but shows a fair variety of CO A frames. They are a market to themselves. ANSI is probably going to work well with that specific housing type, because they all have the same design shape and similar measurement conditions. So they’ll all adjust up or down rather uniformly.

        The same can not be said for bi vs tri if we have to get away from floor area recognition and instead have to deal with a ground level reporting basis. You know, I never knew the exact details right here at home. Just took it for granted because a universal system was in place, most everyone abides by it, and we just don’t face those same problems with wildly varying measurement strategies. Or at least we never used to. I think I’m going to go ahead and get mad again. Just Kidding! Gotcha. Or wait, I’m not sure. Really hope someone at FNMA reads this. This may be the most posts ever blog on this site, I don’t think the political or racist ones even got this much traction. This has been entertaining and informative. No hard feelings, appreciate everyone whom participated. Thanks again.

        https://samanthamitchellphotos.com/2021/01/24/best-colorado-a-frames-airbnb-colorado-elopement/

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  112. Avatar BA says:

    OMG…. REALLY PEOPLE ???
    Sounds to me like the patients are now running the Asylum!!!
    I am really hoping ANY ONE on the Appraisal Standards Boards is reading this.

    I think there’s more than one TROLL here. MAYBE a few of FNMA REPs ?

    1
    • Baggins Baggins says:

      Not sure why the surprise. It’s all good, we’re putting this one to bed soon. Don’t let it get you down.

      I’m technically trolling, but hopefully for the right reasons, of benefit to someone somewhere.

      If an FNMA or ANSI rep is here without disclosing that, well, that’s a bold accusation and we hope in good faith that’s not happening.

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      • Avatar BA says:

        Baggins I was not referring to you being a troll. Carry on….

        As far as I know there are no rules on disclosing on a Blog. We all just hope that we would not operate that way. Don’t kid yourself though. Everyone in all industries including law enforcement read and yes even comment on these sites to get a feel for the acceptance of an idea or other info pertinent to the subject they wish to explore.

        Let’s face it though, to advise someone to just assume or make up Data or to adjust with out market acceptable Data is really not so good IMO.

        FNMA is saying based on the experience , knowledge of the area and styles the appraiser should be able to come up with a GLA?? AND AN ADJUSTMENT? Thats just wrong and I’m pretty sure that is not what any of us were ever instructed to do by anyone.

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        • Baggins Baggins says:

          No it’s all good I don’t mind. I jumped up several times over the past few days. Got to catch a break this never ends. And then out of the corner of my eye…. The blog boards kept calling me… Ha! I really love this website. The banter. The free expression of speech without big tech meddling. The rich body of information that comes forth. The oftentimes starkly different opinions and positions. The ability to post a meme. No robot posters. This is how free speech is supposed to be. I hope someone from big tech takes notes! Thanks again.

          1
        • Avatar Tom B says:

          Are you talking about me?

          I never said to make up data.

          You can certainly look at these simple bi-level homes in CO and speak about how to approach ANSI standards in context. Any numbers that have been posted have been fake. Who is telling people to make things up.

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          • Baggins Baggins says:

            Thank you guys, all of you sincerely. Don’t worry about it. This thread was at times, quite heated.

            We’re all in it together, that’s the most important part.

            We operate in good faith. I wish FNMA would do the same in regards to ANSI FAQ 7
            Q7. Can appraisers use the exception code to voluntarily opt out of compliance with the ANSI standard? No (fists pounding on the desk!) I mean this is professional guidance? If the question had to be asked then answered in the first place…

            Since there is no limit here. I’d like to share one of the most insightful area research links I’ve ever come across. We’re hoping to take a step away from the big city so between this and google maps we can actually learn a lot about places we’ve never been. This site I think is census based so it’s relevance fades with each passing day but it can still be a very interesting tool to review. Just pop in a state, county, or city, then click the drop down list of what you want from the search line, wait for the load time. I’ve spent so much time on that I’ve never even clicked all the various boxes on the front page, sure there is a lot there too. It’s mostly demographics and stats.

            http://www.datausa.io

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            • Avatar Tom B says:

              Baggins if you don’t mind. email me. You now how to find me

              richmondappraiser

              gmail

              I don”t want to have to try to figure out who you are by your screen name. Those days of my life no longer interest me in this context.

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          • Avatar BA says:

            TOM…
            What??
            Didn’t you read this in that post ????
            FNMA is saying based on the experience , knowledge of the area and styles the appraiser should be able to come up with a GLA?? AND AN ADJUSTMENT? Thats just wrong and I’m pretty sure that is not what any of us were ever instructed to do by anyone.

            I call that guessing. How else do you interpret “experience and familiarity” as a good source of GLA in comps you’ve never seen and the Auditor reports and shows a 1 level sketch with no basement? How do you support adjustments when you have no idea based on fact or knowledge for room count and GLA HMMM….. GUESS??

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            • Avatar Tom B says:

              sorry, I didn’t answer your other question…

              “I call that guessing. How else do you interpret “experience and familiarity” as a good source of GLA in comps you’ve never seen ”

              If you have never seen something it would be difficult to have experience and familiarity. However if you were appraising when a certain subdivision was built and you appraised a bunch of them 10 years ago and you know the builder only had 4 plans and you scanned the floor plans and kept them in your files.

              That is an example of experience and familiarity.

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              • Avatar BA says:

                I think your area may be quite a bit different than mine although the East Coast is a vast area so I cannot be positive.
                Your theory would be pretty good but not so much here on splits and bis and not in the past 4 or 5 years IMO. I had a listing that the owner made all open concept. Removed every wall between LR, Kit, and DR for one open room. Then added a bath in a far corner of the family room .They also enclosed and added heat to what was previously a patio. So nothing was as it was when it was built including GLA.
                I have appraised many splits . WE do not have endless areas of homogeneous housing here. There could be 5 splits in an area of 1 mile with many other homes of varying ages, styles and sizes. Maybe 2 3 level no basement, 2 4 levels with partial basements and maybe 1 4 level with a basement and a crawl under the walk out FML room. The auditor labels them all as one floor. Realtors just label them split levels here no floor count most of the time. So first you don’t ever know which one is which until inside, One more style it a 2 level with a garage and utility room. no basement, Now when the open concept design gained popularity many people opened up the floor plans of all style homes all over and in all ages of homes. This does not show up anywhere most of the time. Now we also cannot determine condition with the exception of photos and some unreliable MLS comments. So one has a C3, one has a C4 and one even a C2 . Now you don’t know much on these as there are so many variables. Say Only 2 sold in the past 12 months. You can find out quite a bit but not recently completed changes or reliable measures for basement and crawl space cause those are simply not measured here most of the time. OH I forgot that a sunroom was added to one and one claims a four season rm but Pics show no heat ducks.
                So now FNMA cannot tell us HOW to get the info for ANSI measurement cause there is none yet in all of these homes right now and may not be for years! We do not know if there are 2 or 3 stair cases or any other say low ceiling height areas, no way to know what they measure. We don’t know basements or crawls. FNMA stated make an educated “decision” I say GUESS . Do you subscribe to their direction on this? Just wondering
                Just a side note I did a 3 level Bi level which is pretty unusual.

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            • Avatar Tom B says:

              wow, perfect example. I just replied to you. The first one is gone. the second is left justified.

              What I posted to you earlier is that I can’t tell what your post was in reference to.

              I did not –think– you were talking about me but as Baggins and I were making most recent posts and you said it wasn’t him I figured I better ask.

              The visual format of these blogs is terrible on my pc. No rhyme or reason as to where posts line up or what they are responding to.

              My first comment will probably now show up somewhere out of the blue.

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  113. Avatar BA says:

    I agree with a STANDARD form of Measuring. I am NOT against ANSI. I hope I have clarified this.

    I am however against FNMAs or any other lender’s over lays and requirements for appraisers to determine the MARKET adjustment of anything that the Market does NOT even recognize. I do understand the grid and equal value direction as well, stuff I call needless work. I also know that a lot more narrative/time is required with this. JMO And I am deadly against PFA adjustments that are not reliable because the measurement system is not universal and can not be properly implemented and enforced until it is made universal for all fields/Professions dealing in REAL Property with/for/ or in connection with the public. I could even deal with that chaos if the appraiser’s neck and E&O was not on the line!!
    We all know that lenders have ask us and still do ask us to do things many time that we cannot/should not do because we have an appraiser’s license. They don’t care cause it’s not their license on the line and not their job to protect ours!
    They ask us to revise the appraisal because the contract price was changed after the appraisal when their own lenders guide tells them it is not required. They do not even know their own rules and requirements. They ask us to omit things and change things and re write things in ways we know we cannot do. Again its not their license.

    Now FNMA is asking us with our “experience and knowledge of the area and styles” to adjust when in 2020 and before they clearly stated MARKET BASED ADJUSTMENT MUST BE USED. and “an adjustment based on experience or peer actions is NOT acceptable”. The number 1 violation and cause for suspension /revocation of Appraisal licensing here in 2019 was non supported adjustments or :ADJUSTMENT BASED ON ANYTHING OTHER THAN DATA.
    I ALREADY POSTED THIS BUT JUST IN CASE HERE IT IS AGAIN…….
    In 2020 FNMA released this
    Fannie Mae recently made some important changes to its policies on comparable sales and gross adjustment guidelines. Their newly launched Collateral Underwriter (CU) took effect on January 26 2020.
    It’s important to be aware that the rules of thumb many appraisers are accustomed to using for adjustments may no longer apply for appraisals on Fannie Mae loans. For one thing, Fannie Mae has eliminated the 15% net and 25% gross adjustment guidelines.
    According to the agency, it will no longer have specific limitations or guidelines associated with net or gross adjustments. “The appraiser’s adjustments must reflect the market’s reaction (that is, market based adjustments) to the difference in the properties of chosen comparables,” according to Fannie Mae. That means that appraisers shouldn’t use a $20 per square foot adjustment for the difference in the gross living area based on a rule-of-thumb when market analysis indicates the adjustment should be $100 per square foot.
    Instead, Fannie Mae expects appraisers to analyze the market for competitive properties and provide “appropriate market based adjustments” “without regard to arbitrary limits on the size of the adjustment.” In other words, appraisers will no longer be constrained by gross adjustment limits.
    This is important to keep in mind Appraisers who always use a $20 per square foot adjustment will likely find their appraisals are flagged by Fannie Mae.
    The agency also revised its policy on the age of comparable sales selected by appraisers. Appraisers no longer need to provide an explanation when using a comparable sale that is greater than six months old. “In some instances it may be appropriate to use older sales with proper time adjustments rather than a dissimilar more recent sale,” according to Fannie Mae.
    So, comps that have closed within the last 12 months will now be considered by Fannie Mae. And in certain cases-such as on subject properties located in rural areas-it may not be possible to find three comps that sold in the last 12 months. In those cases, appraisers may use older comps as long as an explanation is provided, Fannie Mae clarifies.

    This new change in ANSI and all the rest is open for interpretation in a lot of ways as they state our experience and knowledge should be enough for reliable results in extracting adjustments on or for properties we have never been in ! Even 2055 or the NEW hybrid reports do not make us this vulnerable. Also I question why at the same time they brig out the Hybrids that require LESS work by a Licensee and LESS uniformity and accuracy they ALSO bring out a standard measurement requirement for consistency and uniformity.
    Doesn’t anyone else find this a little TOO coincidental?? There is a lot of ambiguity here and a lot of it is going to hurt a lot of our peers and possibly change out industry in a way that is not good for Appraisers. IMO

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  114. Avatar Chris says:

    BA… They did away with the net and gross and individual 10% adjustments because appraisers were not making adjustments to conform to these rules and their appraisals look like crap and not worth the paper they were printed on. They were doing this because the lender could not sell on the secondary market if these rules were broken, and these rules needed to be broken in order to appraise the property correctly.

    I continue to see appraisal reports written by appraisers making a full bath adjustment of $1,500 and a half bath adjustment of $1,000, when you can’t even build a patio anymore for less than $3,000.

    The restrictions that were once upon us have been removed with comp selection and adjustments, they would rather have the right appraised value than some junk piece of paper with an appraised value that makes no sense when looked at by an intelligent individual.

    We all agree the new concept of management companies have destroyed our profession trying to follow these old rules, that is why they have been changed to allow the appraiser more freedom in getting to the right number And not worrying about how the appraisal “looks”.

    Half the appraisers in this country and I mean half have no idea how to appraise real estate, they were taught by their mommies and daddies who coddled them throughout their traineeship and do not deserve to be considered real estate appraisers.

    These appraisers have not been following the guidelines regarding how to measure a house, instead they have been copying the assessor sketches and I have seen appraisal reports that these sketches don’t even match what the house looks like in reality.

    Our profession has been at stake for the past 30 years because of lazy unintelligent appraisers that were lucky enough to get state certified.

    It was over 10 years ago we were told that anything below grade, whether it be a foot or two must be called basement level, there has been such an uproar even about including a two-story open family room as gross living area when it is actually gross building area.

    As I have read these comments over the last month by crybaby appraisers who do not want to change their old ways, who do not want to start thinking, and who rely on computerized data models for their adjustments regardless of what is below grade and what is above grade.

    I trained an appraiser who ended up as the number one reviewer for a large mortgage company, I asked him how it was going, and he said all he does all day long is explain to loan officers and real estate agents about below grade and above grade GLAs and finish below grade areas, and that sun porches cannot be considered GLA because they are just sun porches enclosed by thin pieces of glass, he has to explain what an attic is, what a finished Attic is. He says 10 times a day he has to have these conversations, and now finally the real estate community will understand and be taught in their classes how to measure a house properly.

    ANSI is a good thing, but it will take time, for people to conform, and one day everybody will be on the same page except for the assessors in this country who do mass appraisals their own way with their own sketches and their own systems of assessing values for tax purposes.

    As far as I am concerned, the lazy appraisers stealing assessor sketches their days are finally over!

    And one appraiser in particular, will finally realize that a garden level below grade area does not have the same value as an above grade area in any marketplace in any place in this country, because once he starts to separate his adjustments he’s going to start to see the value differences.

    The movement to ANSI is long overdue !

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      Curious. How could two tri levels in the same location sell for the same amount, when one has a garden but the other does not and is fully above ground? This defies logic! You can say whatever you want in a categorical general sense but it does not change the data which the market presents. On one hand you’re all on about appraisers using static adjustments fixed in space regardless of the market data, of course that is proper to call out as an unreliable method. Then you apply a static rule of thumb with an extra ordinary assumption (not just an ordinary assumption), that appraisers will see by using ansi that the garden levels do in fact carry less value. The only way that could be true is if we improperly co mingled the finished garden areas with the grimey basements. Otherwise that statement is not true. Please allow me to respond; No it does not. A bi a tri, they move the same based on market recognized living area. The important concept of the invisible hand and market forces. Reporting something in a different manner will not change the market forces at hand or the market response to it. If somehow you’re crafting a statistical presentation which indicates otherwise, well you know what they say, lies, damned lies, and statistics. There is a difference between a basement and a garden level. Let’s explore that difference.

      Here, logic check. Imagine a tri level home, garden level lower where the fireplace is, the primary family gathering area is, a bath room down the hall, a garage out front on that same level with driveway at ground level, a 2 car garage. A slightly elevated earth situation on the rear so the rear windows are a foot above the ground, watch the kids and dogs play, complete visual access to the rear areas. Open the windows get fresh air. Sun shining in the room casting interesting shadows and lights. And a small hallway which leads to the bath door, the garage door, and a basement door. Behind the basement door is a dozen steps and a 10 foot handrail before you get to the concrete floor square unfinished basement room which resides under the mid level of this tri level property.

      The basement is where you find the laundry, the hot water heater, the furnace, the sump pit and pump, spiders and dust. There is a small window with a small window well and at just the right time of day, the sun shines in this area for about 10 minutes until the angles no longer support direct sunlight. This area you normally have to use electricity to have lighting. There are no heat ducts here in this area so it’s always a little colder and the air is generally stale. When the door on the garden level is closed, this is an area where you can’t tell anything about what is going on in the house or the yard. You’re a dozen steps down behind a closed door and the family sort of looks at you funny when you come out of the basement, slightly surprised you actually wanted to be down there on purpose. But you are going through a goth phase and watch too many vampire movies, having acquired a newfound love for dark scary places and an aversion to sunlight and open air like a normal well adjusted human being. So you like basements instead.

      Mother father grandparents cousins, all over to visit, having a conversation in the mid entry room, the mid level dining and kitchen, alongside the lower garden level family room. They’ll all communicating. Grandma passes a piece of bread down to grandpa sitting in his favorite garden level chair by the wall. He looks up from the garden level and shares a smile with his lovely wife sitting at the dining room table. Honey are you ready for movie night in the living room? I’ve got the fireplace ready, the movie is in, television is on, popcorn, the kids and guests are here, everyone grab a chair it’s movie night in the living room! As the family sees what is happening in this lower garden level from the kitchen dining and entry foyer from the mid level, with direct line of sight. Everyone in all three spaces can hear smell feel the heat, the same because all that living area is one big cavity of shared air and heated area. The family commutes to the garden level, carefully navigating the 3 or 4 count stair set with 2 ft handrail to make their way down to that cozy berber carpet and sit down by the fire. But young Billy being the wild man 8 year old that he is just hops the entire stair set cause he’s into jumping and has a lot of energy tonight. Thankfully he did not fall but nobody was worried, he only dropped down two feet. Someone steps to the rear window and says, look how beautiful the sunset is. The kids out front ride their bikes off the street to the garage, kick them down, open the garage door, and steps right into this garden level family room area, perhaps stopping to use the restroom. Someone has to walk to the basement door to tell crazy anti conformist activist son whom just can’t seem to behave normally like other people, to please come on up out the basement and participate with the rest of the family. Because way down there behind the door they could not hear smell or feel the warmth like everyone else did on the garden and mid level, nor could the conversations be heard.

      Back to the family room. Oh wait sweetheart, didn’t you hear about the ANSI measurement standard? We’re having movie night in the basement now! The family appears confused. Father in law steps in, obviously our young son in law must have had too much to drink, he’s not thinking clearly. Are you all right son? You just called our family room the basement. Didn’t you hear, this is a basement now! We’re all required to say this is a basement, that is the new law of the land! I could lose my job if I don’t call this a basement! I’ll lose all of my lending clients and they won’t let me push reports through FNMA unless I call this a basement! Father in law walks son to the garage door, navigates the single step to get 6 inches down to the garage floor, and then walks a flat concrete garage surface with beautiful floor sealing out to their driveway and front yard. He walks a flat plain to the mailbox and checks the mail, hoping some fresh air will bring his son to his senses, understanding he’s probably just a little stressed from his job as a real estate appraiser. Does this look like you’re in the basement right now son? Are you o.k.? Maybe you should go to bed early and get some rest, skip the movie night. You’re not thinking clearly. Let me make sure you’re o.k., how many fingers am I holding up? What day is it. Do you know where you are at right now? Did at any point today did you fall and hit your head and get a concussion? You just demanded everyone call our living room a basement and you seemed really convinced that somehow that was a basement. You know the basement is the room by the bath behind the door right? Remember, where the laundry and furnace is, it’s dark down there and that’s where it flooded when the water heater broke?

      Per the sunroom and ancillary room sizing counts. It is a shame if appraisers can’t understand the basics of ‘what is a living area’, vs ‘what is not a living area’. It’s not surprising though given how the other appraisers push them around with illogical tenants, that the appraisers then themselves fail to grasp other basic logical principals and get confused. The rule for counting sunrooms is they must be fully converted to interior living space to qualify. They must be; heated, finished to a similar standard as the home, have window egress, have quality doors and windows which would otherwise be seen anywhere else within the primary home areas, have a ceiling, a roof, insulation all sides, electrical service, a heat duct which feeds directly into that room space, floor finishing and wall finishing to a similar interior standard, and must somehow have achieved a functional design which lends this space easy access and shared heated air to the rest of the home. Most accomplish this by removing what used to be the rear sliding door and making that an open square instead, some also dress it up and punch a knock out in the wall so there is more air sharing and a new ledge where those in the other room can look into their finished area formerly sunroom which is now qualifiable living space.

      It’s just that they need to be careful with this sunroom addition. Because if that damned dog starts digging holes again and kicks a few feet of dirt up against the side of the home, that area ceases to be above grade and becomes a basement. That damned dog, he’s a real busy animal, he digs holes 5 ft deep and creates mounds 10 ft across and three feet high. He really goes at it. Once we got back from vacation and he had dug up half the yard and we had an entirely different terrain! That was unfortunately the day the real estate appraiser came over. He climbed up this hill the dog created, took a photo of this mountain of dirt pushed up against the side wall where the sunroom area is and said, nope that’s below grade, and then just like that our carefully planned living area, our favorite area of the entire home, and the appraiser said (hold on let me quote exactly what you said here chris) “a level below grade area does not have the same value as an above grade area” And just like that the thirty thousand dollars we spent finishing our sun room vanished into thin air. We called our sales agent whom reviewed our assessment record and she confirmed, the assessor counts that as living area and taxes us at that amount. The sales agent also said don’t worry about it because when it comes time for selling the home, she will market that as living area, it will be priced the same as all other living area, and she has market evidence that buyers won’t care about the slight changes in ground elevation because buyers do not make their purchasing decisions about the technicalities of what is above or below grade slightly, but rather buyers consider the functional usable heated space areas and nobody would be so rude as to try and swindle us out of so much home value by improperly identifying our nicely finished sunroom as anything other than a well finished living area.

      Telling the truth as everyone around you will understand clearly is the truth, that matters and matters a lot. Living by your own code and describing things contrary to the way everyone else does is not good honest transparent valuation practice. If this was star trek all you ANSI supporters would be like the nerds in the corner talking kling-on language even though nobody else in the room could understand what you are saying. You think you’re elite and awesome with this special thing you’ve come up with. But I’m sorry to inform you, some of the rest of the room though you were weird and sort of out there in your own world. They don’t want to invite you back for the next event party. And that will be the real world reaction appraisers face with this nonsense. I agree though, no wonder people don’t trust appraisers. We’ll look at a blue sky and find a way to describe it as green and fervently believe it’s actually green despite and and all evidence to the contrary.

      I never knew I had spent so much time in basements when I was a kid. This explains a lot. I’m learning new things about myself. I grew up in a tri level with garden and a basement. I though I spent all those mornings days and evenings in the living room on the garden level. Actually I was living in a basement and just never knew it. No wonder I found the sub basement second basement so scary. I may have already lost my cool from being in the first basement for too long. I should have never read IT, because everyone knows, clowns live in the basements and they are scary places. I’m not sure if I’ll ever have the courage to step down to the garden level again because seriously, I am afraid of clowns. It’s one of our family jokes whenever the girls have to go fetch something from downstairs. “Watch out for clowns!” “IF you see a red balloon, get the hell out of there!” Sometimes I inadvertently scare myself with that and find myself unable to run down there to grab the bag of pretzels because everyone else is asleep and nobody will be available to save me. I’ll open that basement door peer down into the abysmal dark depths, fiddle with my light switch even though I know the light switch has been broken for 10 years, I’ll try to flick it anyways. I keep a flash light right there by the door but my daughters always take it so it’s never there when I need it. I’m frozen in fear and can’t take that first step. I watched too many scary movies as a kid involving creepy dungeon basements. I close the door and check twice to make sure it’s clicked shut, always creeps me out when it opens on it’s own if it’s not clicked shut. I’ll just find something else, pretzels are not that important. That’s when I realize, I’m still in the basement! Because I’m on the garden level! The horror! This can’t be happening, this is not happening. Pinch myself hoping it’s only a bad dream.

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      • Avatar Chris says:

        Baggins,… As I said, once you start to separate these area, you will see a garden level is worth more than a basement and a garden level is worth less that above grade.

        I literately just watched you be taught how to appraise and report !!!

        And one more time…this is why the appraisal GODS have spoken !!! Those of us who have doing it by the “book” maybe someday wont have to argue what is considered below grade and what is considered above grade anymore.

        I think you are man enough to tell everyone on this blog that you were wrong once you start to see the value differences within your market.

        You jump all of the place when comment, try to keep it simple.

        Garden level…what is cost to cure to make it above grade??? A back hoe and some grading and seeding. Then you can put in some normal size windows maybe, Then maybe you wont have some water infiltration issues or mold.
        .
        You NEVER saw the value difference because you weren’t looking for it, nor where you filling out the forms correctly.

        And just to be clear, I am not talking about new construction units with a foot or 2 of ground against the house.

        I know you are man enough to admit that you have been wrong. But it will take a few months…Get ready for your head to spin.

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        • Baggins Baggins says:

          You really inferred many things which were not accurate what so ever.

          Facts: Garden level windows are quite often the same size as mid and third level windows. And the rooms often have better functionality not less, because due to foundation thickness for our more extreme weather environment in CO, foundations are often several inches thicker than found in other places in the country. That is expressed with an increased cost basis in the M&S residential handbook based on location. We always apply that one add on for extreme climate. And the way the framing works for the interior, there is often a usable ledge running along the walls which face the exterior of the building. Really handy for plants, photos, books, pencils, gerbil cages, whatever.

          There is no need for a back hoe because that would cut into the yard, the rear and front yards are generally level, except there is about a 3 to 4 foot earth rise somewhere along the side of the home. This rise may be substantial or it may be rather nominal depending on the lot conditions at the time of build. The volume of earth and sloping did not change any of the builders cost to construct or cost to finish interior areas. Regardless of slope or how much is partially below grade, the exacting height of the foundation and height and width and spacial volume of the home did not change.

          Matching units of comparison. Finished areas track for more than unfinished areas. The garden level has equivalent usable area, equivalent functionality, equivalent finish, equivalent utility. That’s a simple concept.

          Thanks for the grandiose machismo, because, that’s a real valuation skill right there. If only I was man enough… I blame the thirty thousand wimpy realty agents and thousands of other appraisers whom did it wrong before me. What do those local assessors know about the real property areas they manage. Nothing that’s what. We’re going to show them how to do this properly. Their local municipal codes on building spacial recognition do not matter and provide nothing in terms of reasonable guidance which the appraisers can rely on to be or become ‘geographically competent.’ Geography is a place, not a municipal guideline set forth by the local government body whom has jurisdiction in the area which describes and prescribes the exacting specifications for allowable building and structure development, including the subsequent recognition of qualifiable space reporting which taxation and assessed values are based upon. The very basis of market value benchmarks. We’re going to redefine that because we are simply better at this task than they have ever been.

          Let’s jump back to the literal conundrums. Observe on pg 2 of the 1004 report ‘the grid’, the primary size of home adjustment line is specifically called: “Gross Living Area”.

          If people spending all that time in finished garden levels are not spending time in the living areas, where were they?

          They were below grade. The form clearly says basement and finished rooms below grade.

          But wait, there is more! The sloping increase actually starts way in the back so half of the garden level is actually below grade, the other half is not. Should we cut the room in half for a more accurate description. I think sketches should include topography aspects so we can really get a better handle on grading and elevation changes. Lets add topographical surveyor to our list of specialties which drive valuation practice.

          The common understanding of below grade is there being some condition where there is not an equivalent benefit of being above grade. Those areas indeed are likely to track with reduced valuation factors. And they’re less likely to have equivalent finish and utility. Where as the functional areas of bi’s and tri’s do not track that way, not around here.

          Setting out with a preconceived notion is nothing but an assumption, a hypothesis. Why does the tri with 2k total living area & no basement sell for the exact same as a bi level with 2k total living area and no basement? Doesn’t the below grade area have less value? Isn’t the below grade area of the bi level twice the size of the below grade area of the tri? Shouldn’t the tri track at a higher price and value basis because it has less below grade area? Curious.

          I think I may be able to figure this out but can’t quite put my finger on the detail… Because despite 20 years of professional practice without a single claim nor complaint, hundreds of independent requests for complex situations where I’m the only one capable and/or willing to provide the valuation service, excess references which I took my own website and marketing down because I could not keep up and referrals were enough, you know; I’m learning how to appraise as I go right here on this blog site. One of these days I hope to understand this incredibly hard to grasp concept of equivalent units of measurement alongside the principals of substitution. Dare to dream.

          Definition of utility

          (Entry 1 of 2)
          2 : something useful or designed for use
          3a : public utility
          b(1) : a service (such as light, power, or water) provided by a public utility
          (2) : equipment or a piece of equipment to provide such service or a comparable service
          Antonyms: Noun
          uselessness, worthlessness

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          • Avatar Chris says:

            Baggins… You crack me up. You have been preaching to the choir, half of us went over this more than 10 years ago. Maybe even 15 years ago.

            But that was before The appraiser gods made ANSI mandatory.

            So now it is time for the other half of the appraisers to catch up

            You can argue until you’re blue in the face, how many shades of blue have you been over the last 30 days?

            In the end your reports will now reflect the various levels that your different types of properties have.

            It is up to you as the appraiser of how to value these varying levels, if a garden level is the same as above grade then just appraise it that way, it’s only the reporting that you will be changing.

            I literally just watched you be taught how to report and adjust for different levels of a house.

            Like I said my friend, you’re 10 – 15 years late to the party. We all went through this more than a decade ago. Like I keep saying, I am amazed you haven’t been called out by your lenders.

            You can argue all you want, but when you separate your varying levels you will start to see the value differences, if in fact there is a value difference in Colorado and your marketplace. Only time will tell.

            If there is no value difference, then there is no value difference.

            Let us know, I am very curious.

            Here in Pennsylvania a 2000 ft² one-story rancher all above grade, is worth more than a bi-level with a garden level at a thousand square feet and a thousand square feet above.

            It is called functional utility, it is called curb appeal. Or design, or whatever you may call it in Colorado.

            Here in Pennsylvania our split levels have three bedrooms that have privacy on the upper level, and then we have three rooms on the second level, kitchen, dining room and living alo above grade, and then when you go below grade what you call garden level we can consider finished basement, and we can also have an unfinished basement completely underground underneath the kitchen living room dining room level, we just report whatever is below grade and value accordingly.

            So when you tell me a bi level is the same as a split level, in my state split levels are superior because the upper bedroom levels have privacy from the rest of the house even though they’re only five or six stairs raised above.

            Split levels of superior to bi levels for this reason of superior functional utility, or privacy. You can walk to the hall bath without having to put your clothes on if there is a party going on on the second floor, unlike a bi-level party where the bedrooms are located on the kitchen living room dining room floor.

            It is not a big deal. Your previous posts were reading like there was a cabal infringing on your human rights and freedoms to do what you want, when we are just cogs in the big machine of lending in this country, and the appraisal gods want conformity across the board and may finally end the argument with loan officers and real estate agents and the laymen’s about what actual GLA is and what below great area needs to be reported as.

            We are not to conform to assessors or to real estate agents or to builders.

            That is your biggest misunderstanding.

            For somebody who doesn’t want to to conform to ANSI, You have been preaching about conforming to assessors and builders and real estate agents.

            For whatever reason you are 10 to 15 years late to the party is the reason why the appraisal gods have spoken about measuring to ANSI.

            And if you’re that good after 20 years, my friend, think of how good you’ll be after another 10 years.

            I have 30 years under my belt, and it is time to retire at the age of 56, I am relocating out of this country, I have had enough of this country and the nonsense of the last 5 years, I will be relocating to Asia, living the dream raising exotic fish and bird, living with fresh produce and fruit grown on my land, with fresh eggs everyday, no snow, and no headaches from doing appraisals. I plan to spend 30 days in 2 – 3 country every year that I can and live with the locals and drink their coffee, eat their foods and drink their wines and laugh at their jokes.

            I have made a lot of money as a real estate appraiser, but I have given up So much of my life in return, I have seen amazing properties I have met amazing people of all levels and of all lifestyles all over Pennsylvania New Jersey Delaware Maryland.

            The post I have read for this blog is a reflection of the problem in our country these days. What I hear is… Me me me. And not us.

            We used to say to pledge of allegiance in school, One Nation under God, with liberty and justice for all.

            Those words don’t apply anymore.

            The Statue of Liberty… Give me your tired, your poor your, huddled masses yearning to breathe freedom, …..

            Does not apply anymore.

            A woman’s right to choose… Does not apply anymore. To a certain faction of our country.

            Take the statue of Liberty down, it does not apply anymore to a certain faction of voters in this country.

            We are in an uncivil war, the South said it …they will rise again, and here we are today, in an uncivil war brought on by bigotry and racism and white nationalism.

            Our constitution is under attack, our Supreme Court has been infiltrated by dark money with an agenda that has not been exposed yet but will be sooner or later.

            America’s politicians are bought and paid for at the expense of common Americans, high price of healthcare, high price of pharmaceutical,

            The continues lies lies told by ring wing media pretending to be news agencies All in the name of advertising revenue and something more to come

            The separation of church and state no longer applies.

            Stage one of the dumbing up of Americans is now complete, stage two is now the uprise of authoritarians, phase three will occur when our once great country goes to another great depression.

            The oligarchs will lower wages back down to a dollar an hour, they will buy up commercial residential and industrial real estate for pennies on the dollar, and when people are standing in bread lines they will not say a thing.

            I wish you would put your energy into something more important than a standardization of measurement for real estate appraisals.

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            • Baggins Baggins says:

              Thank you. What you observed with the grid work theoretical stuff was expressions of the difficulties appraisers would have if the assessor did not provide garden level breakdown and there was no other verification source. I was not learning how to do anything but some meaningful insight was gained. Sometimes the rubber must hit the road and the pen must be put to paper, for theoretical expressions to become measurable to see if postulations may or may not be true. I did certainly prove the net/gross dilemma which was my primary goal.

              The notion of conforming to local standards is rooted in the very thing you talk about, upholding the rule of law and local jurisdiction in our local communities. You can’t give up one liberty and embrace another. Or claim this due process applies but that one does not. It’s an all or nothing proposition, the notions of law and order, equal representation, due process. Also, it only makes sense to make use of existing municipal guidelines because there are better redundant data verification sources. That is in fact, why so many others utilize this uniform approach. Being on the same page in terms of units of measurements has it’s benefits.

              I’m not giving up.

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              • Avatar Chris says:

                Baggins… I love how you write, I consider you one of the most intelligent people on any of these blogs and that is for as long as you’ve been on these blogs for.

                Yes, the more you separate these areas the more you will see, I do not mean to insult, sometimes you got to get somebody’s blood boiling in order to break the mold.

                We here in the Northeast of the country rely on ourselves for our GLA’s and our below grade areas, sometimes the assessors are correct, half the time they are incorrect, it is due to them hiring for mass appraisals at $8 an hour drunken fools who are still hungover in the morning at 7:00 a.m. to measure homes in the counties that are going through reassessment with mass appraisals.

                I know this because I worked a few months with a nationwide company doing mass appraisals, at times the managers assumed there were only three varieties of split levels and I had to argue with them that this was a fourth variety.

                A recent Mass appraisal and one of my counties the company rounded every figure up and did not measure every wall, I have seen reported assessors figures incorrect by over 10%.

                You will not have the problems that you are imagining that you will have with reporting different figures, it is not that hard to do once you get used to it, it is basically simple math but you have to use a calculator and you have to use some intelligence but it is not impossible to get close to an accurate figure to then make your adjustments.

                My biggest complaint years ago about the management companies, after I called 180 appraisers trying to get them to unionize so that we would not be taking advantage of, I heard the same story from all of them me me me me, and that’s what I continue to hear today, me me me me me.

                Moving to ANSI we’ll lead to the real estate classes teaching would we appraiseers need to know when realtors measure houses, it will finally get better.

                And yes it’ll make us appraisers easier to replace.

                So be it.

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                • Baggins Baggins says:

                  Good thing we do not have those problems around here in this state. It is very rare for assessment figures to not be accurate pertaining to their specific building code specifications. We are far more to the same page of a uniform standard than it appears other states are. So much for all that progress!

                  Would you still have the same position if in your area, things worked smoothly? I get the point that in some areas, it’s a mess and corrections need applied. Is it fair representation and equal representation for a new standard to be applied which creates far more disruption than the current system in municipalities where the stated has already been achieved? Let’s consider the frequency of out of state flatlanders needing to come here to measure properties with THEIR standards, rather than ours. Minuscule.

                  Principals matter.

                  Thanks for the compliments. The hardest part about being exceptionally intelligent is finding ways to express and convey theoretical concepts to those whom don’t want to hear it, but rather are more interested in supporting the current thing.

                  If my blood boils, I won’t be on these blogs, that’s for sure. And I don’t take any of it personally so don’t worry. Say whatever you feel like, it’s all good with me. Truth is I’m just a regular dude trying to get by and work smarter not harder. I don’t care if some standard brings this or that, because if it’s not commonly accepted as the status quo, other professionals and market participators will not be on the same page as me. Optics matter too and everything real estate no matter how you slice it is some form of a team effort.

                  Picked this one up from the appraisers forum back in the day. Cheers.

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                  • Avatar Chris says:

                    You know what I want to hear about being exceptionally intelligent, sir yes sir, if that’s the way you want it done that’s the way I will give it to you sir !

                    I am so tired of the cry babies in this country, our parents generation were men, we do not have men anymore, this country has it turned into a bunch of crybaby little girls.

                    The Nazis are winning !

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                    • Avatar Doug Kues says:

                      This is so very simple, and it pains me to see this forum deteriorate into a pissing contest. The problem is not ANSI, and there is nothing wrong with having a measurement standard for us all to follow (and learn properly). The problem is the trickle down impact and the dumbing down of appraisers when forced to keep inventing disclaimers and scapegoat clauses because of an industry that has found it so very easy to sucker appraisers into accepting the responsibility and liability for all the others in the food chain. They have already succeeded masterfully in the evolution of the appraiser / home inspector / engineer/ environmental specialist / water heater installer / smoke & CO master, so it is a small stretch to expand those liabilities into an architectural arena. There is nothing really so difficult about ANSI. The difficulty is our liability for making a supposed market reaction adjustment that all readers are conditioned to, and with great anticipation, expect to rely on, and the forces that require a credible report…… when we are knowingly creating a misleading report with every adjustment that we have no way of proving accuracy.

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                      • Baggins Baggins says:

                        That’s right Doug. The appraisal grid is strictly for market reaction adjustments.

                        Add topographical surveyor to our list of specialties.

                        “You only need to measure subject to ansi, not your comps.” Who threw centuries of sound mathematical theorems for matching unit comparisons in the trash can?

                        Get ready to buy more books! The unelected special interest ANSI working group which consists of 15 people, which apparently now influences policies for this whole country and usurps all local municipal guidelines and jurisdiction, is going to sort out some of the fine details in the next round of book sales.

                        Every time without fail. When people use the force of government and deny individuals the ability to choose or not to choose voluntary engagement. It’s an unmitigated disaster every last time. Some people never learn.

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                      • Avatar BA says:

                        AMEN!! SO WELL STATED. Thank you

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    • Avatar BA says:

      Well aren’t you the GO FNMA/ANSI guy here! LOL …
      First unless you are a Realtor you can not possibly know the state of a Realtor’s training. I have to laugh at your thought that Realtors will ever measure by any method other than “the owner stated” GLA just as they do now here. Realtors do NOT want the liability of ANSI. They are too hands off for that . They don’t even meet their clients for contracts…DOT LOOP. IT so much worse than it has ever been.. So you can count them out for ANSI. The training is brief on the subject of appraisals and they are taught GLA. But even with MLS trying to get the reporting more accurate Realtors still count below Ground level rooms and bathrooms in the above grade room count.
      I speak with both Real Estate and the Appraisal Code enforcement fairly often. I was told that the last 2 years had record complaints…..Appraisers against Realtors
      Second MLS does not require a whole lot from Realtors. Core logic is an advertising form. They would like agents to be honest and not misleading but they do not check to see if they are. Other agents are supposed to watch dog the listings for accuracy and then send a flag off to the MLS team. Once they are sold there is nothing done at all.
      MLS does not have to worry about accuracy cause they are not entering anything.
      In my area the MLS stopped the ” Coming soon” because the agents here abused it so badly that Core logic stopped it. But the Board President in his monthly news letter told all the Realtors in the Association to ignore the MLS as to ending coming soon , keep doing it and just get the owners permission. !!

      Now I am a little confused about the bathroom adjustment comment you make here. Care to elaborate?
      I strongly agree that it is going to take time before this is accepted and done. And that “one day ” we may see more use. OR FNMA will change their mind AGAIN and do something else. OR ANSI will update again and include GARDEN LEVELS in GLA. …
      I also agree that there are many Appraisers who could benefit from a second course of the basics . Many did not do much as far as training and just got licensed with very little education. Many were not properly trained.
      The Auditor’s cards here are a basic out line sketch so its not worth steeling for anyone. Anything prior to the licensing of these guys, is not accurate at all a lot of the time. Even with floor plans they were inaccurate. Untrained and did not know how to report GLA or Sketch and sometimes included the GARAGE in GLA !!
      The auditor here get the information from building plans when the permits were applied for in the first place. Here all the construction (and I imagine the entire US ) had the blue print or plans filed and all of the information for construction was given to the Auditor. So at the time the info was fairly accurate with the exception of the sketches. It’s the homes built before the plans were required that are pretty far off, anything since the Auditor’s appraisers were required to be licensed is far improved. But they did not get licensed here until about 2012 or after.
      In a small City here near me the building Dept told me they check MLS sheets on every listing in their little City. The they add all the info from the MLS in their files. Now that is REALLY BAD cause the Realtors embellish so much its ridicules!!

      I am sorry but I don’t agree on Appraisers being “cry babies” The lenders and AMCs don’t want to pay what appraisals are worth IMO. Then they ad more time for the job. Just try to get more money!! Never happen…Did any AMC/Lender add a few bucks to the fee when gas went up by at least 50 % in the past 6 months?
      I added a few dollars and stated due to gas prices I had to increase my fees slightly. TALK ABOUT CRY BABIES!! They cancel the assignment every time.
      Now a lot of people will need more time for ANSI. FNAM acknowledges this and says to just add to the price. LOL …..
      So just because there are people who are concerned, feel they are already underpaid and are also not knowledgeable about things like stairs and NON GLA on the GRID and other things the ANSI method explains in a way that can be hard to understand Does not mean they are “cry babies” DOES not mean they were not measuring to a standard. I am sure they were or they would have been fired and retired. The ANSI stair instruction is so confusing that even instructors are not getting it correct. I have seen a lot of confusion on the 5 ft ceiling as well. I will bet you a few bucks ANSI has to change some of that verbiage because it is conflicting in some areas.
      So all in all it is human nature and a common reaction to get stressed and even complain when things change. Since the lenders blamed the entire Market Crash of 2008 on the Appraisers even though they came up with the NO DOC NO INCOME VERIFATION LOAN (which really caused the crash) why wouldn’t many appraisers be upset now seeing this confusing language and direction.
      JMO

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      • Avatar Tom B. says:

        What is confusing about stairs and the 5′ ceilings.

        No space under a ceiling less than 5′ counts AND you need 7′ ceiling that accounts for 50% of total sq ft of the room. IOW a room with a flat 5′ ceiling is not GLA. It has to have a 7′ height. It can have a 14′ height but the 7′ line has to make up 50% of the room measured from the 5′ high width.

        Two measurements 5′ wide AND 7′ wide.
        7′ measurement needs to be at least 50% of the 5′ measurement.

        As to stairs. Just pretend like they are a pull down attic stair. Except stand on second floor and pull the up to close off that space. Just pretend like it’s flat floor. I don’t know why anyone gets confused on that.

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        • Avatar BA says:

          Tom,
          I have been using this method since I began appraising. I cannot say that ANSI has explained the entire method in a clear and concise way and after reading quite a few posts across all sites, it is clear that no one can say it is simple.
          It may be no big deal to a few people but as I stated, even people we would expect to understand this clearly do not. There’s confusion on low ceiling height in Stair wells being counted per some people. Some people do not understand the lack of considering stairwell area to attics. Some do not understand if the rise area is to be subtracted or just the base area of the stairwell. I have read all of this and more. I cannot believe you have not read or heard of many of these people stating their confusion on the Stairwell issues. There is more than one article and/or blog on these things. So, I am certain I am correct in saying many find it confusing and even people who have taken (and some who even teach) the classes, have the book, feel it is confusing. Evidently there are some people who have not read these posts and articles, yet I guess.
          Many people are not so short sited that they cannot see that uniformity cannot be established without full and CORRECT understanding for compliance.?

          There is also a lot of confusion on the ability to separate out and grid and adjust for under 7 ft and then 5-ft areas. There are a lot of people living in these homes that do feel those areas do not have a separate value. These homes are priced apples to apples, and you cannot use another style to extrapolate the answer here.

          If you feel the under-five foot has a value, then may I ask where do you obtain that value from MARKET DATA? So, does the value at say 5 ft change for areas at say 4 ft? At 2 ft? Are you doing height x weight then, Volume, cubic Sq. ft? If you feel it has NO value or if you decide the value is equal… where is the MARKET DATA to SUPPORT that conclusion? I honestly cannot tell you what the answer is to that because the market as a whole has never given an opinion on that in my area that I am aware of. The homeowners use the areas for beds, dressers, shelving and a lot more. The builders built and sold these homes with these areas as useful areas and did not have per sq ft prices on them differing by the height of the ceiling area or slope. The Auditors here have seemed to use 50% or 75 % of the first level to determine GLA in these homes. No where can I find a 2 or 3 different prices per sq foot value on these areas. So, 7′ is one value 5′ is another value and the below 5′ ft is yet another value or no value at all or any combination of that theory anywhere.
          I am sure there are people who have other things they are confused about or need clarification on.
          So yes, for many people it is confusing. I might add that if people are trying to follow appraisal 101 and USPAP and AI requirements it should be confusing ..JMO… cause there is NO mathematical answer for some of this yet and no data on it yet that is reliable enough to separate out, grid and adjust as FNMA requires.
          In my practice I simply followed the GLA of 5 foot and over being counted in the GLA. The rest was not GLA and the total GLA did not include it. AND yes there are a lot of people who see it that same way…right or wrong.
          I get the impression from the comments here that you and several others were already using a separate area in the grid on the URAR and a separate value 0-whatever and adjusting (or not) these areas. Then following that with comments in an addendum to explain and defend for a long time before now and perhaps your entire career. That is tremendous forethought on your part. It surprises me the QC’s understood what was being done even with comments. Just saying..
          Not everything has a value/or no value to everyone and not all of the MARKET has the same opinions. I think we all should be able to agree on that.
          There are a lot of things, types of construction, amenities and differences in this industry and all others that just cannot be brought to an absolute, supportable and valid conclusion without a lot of research and supporting Data and some not even then. IMO

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          • Avatar Chris says:

            The market sees these low ceiling areas as nothing more than a place to put short drawers, a rod to hang clothes, shoe racks. No human that is above 3 feet tall sees these areas as usable space and there is no possible way to prove a value to these low ceiling areas. I dont get the confusion and worry. Appraisers should be using the same general style house with the same general low ceiling area therefore there is no issue with reduced living areas. THe people are already living with “reduced” living areas and have, as I said, use the areas as finished storage areas. By using ACTUAL comparables, this presents no problems at all. Same thing for split/Tri/Bi level houses. Below grade is basement, use comparables with the same style and there is nothing to worry about.

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            • Avatar BA says:

              Great Chis if this were a cookie cutter world, or you could see inside closed walls to make sure ceiling height was the same as your subject or maybe less than the required sq ft to be counted then great, but we can’t. If you know for sure that they are equal well then, your methodology will certainly work. ANSI does not tell us to separate out the GLA finished and the non GLA finished areas, grid and adjust. FNMA is directing us to do that. This cannot be done and/or is not accurate because you cannot GUESS about ANYTHING YOU CAN NOT PROVE in Appraising. It is just that simple. Your extraordinary assumption would be made on what FNAM has stated is the MOST IMPORTANT thing in Appraising. If you disclose the lack of accurate GLA Data and/or specific knowledge to your client prior to accepting the assignment, they will say PASS and give it to someone else. Remember “report and defend” and “results another can duplicate” and finally that the “reader of the report can understand what you did and how you arrived at the results.” Where ya gonna put “I just guessed “??
              Anyone can come to different results than yours doing this. (And you said no wonder they want to get rid of us) It is ALL just guessing without inspection or reliable DATA. Now I CAN NOT Believe YOU do not get this concept…. just saying
              Am I wrong stating that you feel it is appropriate to base and report a conclusion on “typical” rather than fact when appraising? Please help me here because I simply do not understand your position. or your judgement of others here.

              Side note…. Some of my family lives in Japan. It is Beautiful there! Cherry Blossoms soon!

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          • Avatar Tom B says:

            BA,

            What Chris said re 5′ ceilings. I said way back I have been maybe 95% ANSI for ages. What I have done in the past is usually when a room has some built-ins below the 5′ line, I would measure them in and make a comment. Now I would just put them on a different line. The adjustment can be depreciated cost or hopefully you find a comp or two that has similar built-ins. You would still be comparing like items.

            As to the stairs. It doesn’t matter what is under the stairs. It could be a closet with a 4′ ceiling. It could be sealed space.

            Very simple. You have a two story home. It has a 15 x 4 staircase. The opening is 15 x 4 as well. Under those stairs on the first floor are a return air vent for hvac duct work and a closet with a 4′ slanted ceiling., as well as some sealed areas with finished drywall, etc..

            Ok, here is the simple part.
            1. You count the stairs from which they descend. ok that’s 15×4 for Level 2
            2. You count the “floor” below them. ( not the hvac duct, not the closet, not the sealed space )…. The “floor” those things are built on. That too will be 15×4 for Level 1

            So level 2 and Level 1 will be exactly the same measurement for the stair section. No worry of closets, ceilings, etc. They do not exist in context of a typical set of stairs.

            3. If you have a finished set of stairs going to an unfinished upper. They too count.
            EX. You have a Ranch with a massive attic that was built so that if desired it could be expanded. The main level is ornate, the stairs are a focal point. So in that case those stairs would be the only thing counted from the level from which they descend. All else up there is unfinished.

            4. Basement stairways even if unfinished get counted in the floor they descend from.

            All this stair info is located on page 5 Annex. Last paragraph left column + 1st top paragraph right column. It’s basically all stated in one paragraph.

            Speaking of people teaching real estate appraisal. I was watching a really good video yesterday of an appraiser teaching a group of agents and brokers. This person got to one part and said I’m not a fan of regression. He was at a class and someone walked in one day and said I used the analysis and it told me a half bath was worth $75K on a $200K home. the instructor said “Maybe it is” … at that point he said the instructor lost all credibility with everyone in the room.

            Nothing in appraisal works every time. However we can all measure what we see, as it sits, to a national standard. It’s just not rocket science.

            To answer your question. No, have not read other forums about these issues. I somehow got an email about this one and just stumbled in.

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            • Avatar BA says:

              Tom
              “Close” only counts in Horseshoes. Without full compliance it is not ANSI. At Least that is what is being directed through ALL of the materials and education. So, like all of the rest of us…you were not measuring to ANSI compliance but you both feel or seem to say that your method was good and also reliable for all the years of your career (which I totally feel is true and correct) JUST NOT ANSI.
              My guess is Chris was not ANSI compliant either. My point here is to say in the kindest way possible that there is a lot of judgement floating around in the past few months being passed on people who could not say they were “ANSI compliant.” With deeper clarification we see that really probably no Appraisers were ANSI compliant. Few if any appraisers can claim they were ANSI compliant before 4/01/2022. The Veterans never saw a reasons to “improve the way they measured and felt it was good enough to do 100s (maybe 1000S) of appraisals with their system. NOW all of the sudden no questions… ANSI is the end all be all even though it was revised in 2020.
              Now just my opinion …if you have been comfortable in your practice and felt good signing your name then how can you simply and automatically accept a NEW standard that states your whole practice was not reliable and all of your reports were not properly completed?
              Sorry I am just not with you. I believe ANSI does not follow Market reactions and for me in appraising MARKET reaction is mandatory for accuracy of value. GLA IS NOT the most important thing to buyers and the DATA supports that conclusion. So, while ANSI may be the most accurate way to measure something it does not give the PEOPLE that are the MARKET any weight in what the market sees, accepts or wants. ANSI …. ITs all about a measurement. Appraising is so much more than that.

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          • Avatar Tom B says:

            “The homeowners use the areas for beds, dressers, shelving and a lot more. ”

            That is a clue right there and market data. Ok, let’s deal with it.

            ANSI My room 5′ to 5′ is 8 x 20 = 160sf
            ANSI My room 7′ to 7′ is 6 x 20 = 120sf — this figure is over 50% of 5′ size so the 160sf is Fin. Sq. ft = GLA

            Market My room is 14 x 20 at floor = 280sf 280 – 160 = 120sf finished area.

            Assessor – They simply measured the lower level at 14 x 20 and called it a half story. 280/2 = 140

            Agent 1 — Tom!!! You are fn CRAZY. EVERYONE PAYS DEARLY for that entire room. OK, OK, relax… all I asked you was did you measure wall to wall. It looks like you did. YES!! Where else would I measure from… Ok, that’s good, I just want to be sure I don’t short change anyone on my subject.

            Agent 2 — Hi, yes we measure from the wall. They have two beds in there and some nice built-ins. It’s very popular to maximize that space and people have no issue paying for it regardless of the ceilings. Lots of kids here because the schools are rated highest in the state.

            Agent 3– etc..

            OK… back to my GRID…
            My floor area is 280 and that equates to the market.
            My GLA is 160 and that is ANSI compliant.
            I add a line.
            ANSI Dim. Area ( ANSI Diminished Area )
            I write a disclaimer / description explaining the difference between ANSI = GLA and Market bought/sold finished area.
            ANSI Dim. Area | 120sf| Adj = 120 x whatever the GLA figure is. Yes it will be across board plus. Not my problem. All accounted for.

            More importantly any other appraiser that can read a ruler could get similar results. A reviewer in Hawaii could understand the measurements as well the valuation reasoning. IF they got two more appraisals. The other guy might have measured floor to floor. His and my values will be similar but our GLA will not. The third gal that measured used the assessors standard. Now the reviewer has three different GLAs AND this last person will have a different likely lower value.

            Three GLAs – Two Values. Had appraiser 2 used ANSI the reviewer would have
            Two matching GLAs – Two matching Values, Then the third report would be smaller and lower. If the third converted to ANSI and actually measured all the space the reviewer would get 3 = GLAs and very likely 3 similar values with that oddball low value no longer present.

            The above scenario is what has been happening in the ERC community forever. I stretched it a bit. I don’t think anyone appraising in ERC could actually get away with simply copying assessor records.

            Generally speaking most of the homes I measure the 5′ mark cuts out just a minimal amount of square footage. The builders are trying to keep those rooms as large and functional as possible. Then you often have a dormer. So the below 5′ stuff is often minimal like 15 to 20 feet maybe.

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          • Avatar Tom B says:

            All that area under those stairs counts for that floor. You can see the ceiling height is under 5′ but per ANSI the stairs have taken president over that area. The important part is you don;t cut it out.

            How you value it is up to you. You might give some extra value for the built ins.

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          • Avatar Tom B says:

            Basement Stairs

            ANSI
            “Further, stairs that descend to an unfinished basement are included in the finished square footage of the first level regardless of the degree of finish of the stairs or the degree of finish of the area around the stairs.”

            The comment about area around them means unfinished walls, no walls, etc.

            Let me paraphrase ANSI. Even though they explained it all in one paragraph very clearly.

            Don’t diminish your floor level square footage due to stairs. Stairs take precedence and can only make whole a given level.

            unfinished basement stairs counted with first level makes it whole.

            a stairwell in the foyer of a two story home is counted on level 1 and level 2 to make each level whole.

            Stairs don’t SUBTRACT they make the Level whole.

            The finished stairs to the unfinished attic is only exception as it is a feature that needs to be ADDED to overall square footage but since the First Level is already whole you consider it as the only finished space from the Level above. The Level from which it descends. This convention ANSI has used here is not something new. The concept has been used in music theory forever.

            You will never find someone communicating a Scale as

            A A# B# D E F G we have to work with the notes A B C D E F G and their sharps and flats. That scale would be written A Bb C D E F G — notice the latter employs one each of the notes A through G. To you ear they are the same notes but the first one would be a nightmare to communicate and read / write on a sheet of music. Playing it will sound the same though. ANSI is trying to do the same thing with a strict method and not intermingling items and features.

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          • Avatar Tom B says:

            “There’s confusion on low ceiling height in Stair wells being counted per some people. Some people do not understand the lack of considering stairwell area to attics. Some do not understand if the rise area is to be subtracted or just the base area of the stairwell.

            ANSI
            This is what they write as final sentence in the section regarding stairs. It is a separate comment that stands on it’s own.

            “In addition, areas beneath stairs are included in the finished square footage regardless of the distance between the stairs and the floor below or of the degree of the finish of that area.”

            IOW….. if there are a set of stairs they tell you to treat the area under them regardless of what it is as finished square footage. That’s because they know the stairs need structure below to carry them AND the stairs are expensive AND more than likely anything under them is going to add even more expense.

            If this stairwell were going to an unfinished attic it would count as all of first floor PLUS the size of that stairwell ( the opening to carry the stairs, not to exceed size of stairs opening. )

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          • Avatar Tom B says:

            These stairs should be measured and reported however ANSI does not apply.

            The lender will need 3 sales and two listings with a similar feature. All to have closed in the past 7 days.

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    • Avatar Doug Kues says:

      Makes sense that we appraisers accept responsibility for accuracy in our own work. No problem, and always have. My problem with mandating accuracy from the appraiser rather than consistency with the market is that now, in addition to being responsible for our own methodology we have evolved into accepting responsibility for the methodology of others the moment we make ANY adjustment for differences in GLA from subject to comparable. The result, of course, is the simultaneous evolution of Scope of Work disclaimers that effective lessen the ability to rely on ANY appraisal.

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  115. Avatar BA says:

    Time for beds and MEDS!!!

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  116. Avatar Douglas Kues says:

    This blog should have been a great learning place, and a series of comments and thoughts that needed to be required FNMA reading as well. Seems it has turned into a rather long pissing contest between just a handful of appraisers leaving Great American Novels rather than constructive, courteous, and meaningful messages for the benefit of us all. This is NOT all about ANSI, and the use of ANSI standards is not the issue at all. The issue is the trickle down liability by adding responsibility for the accuracy of others to the already overwhelming list of non-industry standards we have been forced to adhere to like building inspection, water heater installations, smoke & CO alarm functionality, architecture, environmental hazards, mold expertise, and on, and on, and on. Personally, and I believe universally, since April 1, 2022 we have exponentially increased exposure to liability and sanctions each and every time we make a GLA adjustment between our subject and comparable sales we have never inspected personally…. knowing full well the result is thus intentionally misleading.

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    • Avatar Chris says:

      I have never heard of an appraiser being sued or sanctioned because they’re off a little bit on reported GLA by assessors on comps or even the subject. The powers that be understand that appraising is not an exact science, we are only good as the information provided to us and we have our disclaimers buried within our reports.

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      • Avatar BA says:

        According to all of this ANSI is not a guess it tightens the RESULTS and definition of GLA like never before. In this case the information reported is BY US. ANSI IS A Science the way FNMA is applying it. Chris all along you have said we need a standard method of measuring; I agree but the STRINGS attached to this method by FNMA do not ALLOW for error. I agree with Douglas.

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        • Avatar Tom B says:

          ” I agree but the STRINGS attached to this method by FNMA do not ALLOW for error.”

          Please give an example where FNMA states no errors are allowed in the measuring process.

          ANSI Z765 is a measuring / classifying standard for single family residences.

          Please describe the strings FNMA has attached and where they say no errors are allowed. I’d like to read that so that I can be sure my disclaimer covers it.

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          • Avatar BA says:

            THIS IS WHAT WE ( others are talking about)
            DIRECTLY FROM FNMA SITE AND GUIDE
            “The appraiser’s adjustments must reflect the market’s reaction (that is, market based adjustments) to the difference in the properties [of chosen comparables],” according to Fannie Mae.
            Instead, Fannie Mae expects appraisers to analyze the market for competitive properties and provide appropriate market based adjustments “
            MARKET BASED ADJUSTMENTS ARE NOT AVAILBLE AS THIS HAS NEVER BEEN ANALYZED AND WAS NEVER PART OF THE APPRAISAL PROCESS PRIOR TO 04/01/2022. ALL that was required was GLA and non GLA not non GLA finished / unfinished and all of the rest WITH A MARKET REACTION ADJUSTMENT in the GRID.
            SO there it is WE are not talking about ANSI just as DOUG stated. This is NOT ABOUT ANSI so get past that part. OR don’t .

            I’m back to thinking trolls OR FNMA REPS visiting here. GO FNMA…YA
            LOL

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            • Avatar Tom B says:

              I’ve posted several text book examples of how to do this.

              No I do not work for FNMA. Do you need to see my tax forms?

              “SO there it is WE are not talking about ANSI just as DOUG stated. This is NOT ABOUT ANSI so get past that part. OR don’t .”

              Oh, ok, my bad…I thought the title of this thread was…..

              “ANSI Measuring Standard Required in 2022”

              ANSI Measuring Standard … I wonder what that could be about. I didn’t realize this was a FNMA Valuation thread. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I’ve been in the wrong thread the whole time.

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              • Avatar BA says:

                Tom,
                I understand your point. It seems though there has been a lot of talk about GLA and garden levels for days that went nowhere and a lot of repeated information on how the method is performed. Every time I bring up anything at all that questions DATA and how to get these adjustments that FNMA requires with this new requirement, I get crickets.
                There have been several things that I am sure you spoke on that were very helpful to people reading here. But you refuse to accept that no matter how you repeat the methods there are many people who are NOT comfortable with how FNMA is directing us here and adjustments are a big issue and so is accuracy,
                It is a thread for the discussion of ANSI but the entire situation is not only ANSI and as GOOD as you wish to make it sound this can be very harmful if all we as Appraisers concentrate on is method.
                You and Chirs seem very hesitant to have and communication as to the concerns others have. “We’ll get used to it” as you and Chis have but neither of you have been ANSI complaint any more than any of us have been cause partial method is not complaint.
                I don’t know CO and I cannot without market knowledge and experience address whether something is market reaction or not in CO. ANSI does not address this very important component of the process so it is very flawed for our purposes of Appraising. As I said there’s a lot more than just accurate GLA. Yet time and time again a guy from PA and one from VA are Criticizing a Veteran Appraiser with out even considering the Market acceptance of his area being a very valid point.! I have been agreeing with a standard method just not with the direction on adjustments. Every question I ask gets the same response which is the direction on 5′ ceiling height and stairs …which I have repeatedly stated I have always been competent in completing. The answer from Chris on adjustments was basically its no big deal…??? You suggested several things in 1.5 stories 5′ ceiling height including add the built ins even if below 5’and comment on it . This voids the ANSI method completely so I really do not understand your thoughts here. You also suggested being familiar with the area and the style as acceptable but we do know that is NOT ok with FNMA or any standard at all. Don’t you think we should pursue more conversation on what is not known and less on what the book demonstrates? Things that are in conflict and not things that are not the issues but are being overlooked that are the real problems?
                No need for SS here but no need for hypocrisy either just saying…
                I mean really when Baggins was being arbitrary in your opinion didn’t you suggest he was a troll? So why not see you may be coming off as a little too PRO FNMA that you cannot even see any downside here. All of your post suggests there is no downside. When someone brings one up you dismiss it with ANSI direction. Come on you are much more rounded than that I am sure. Think about what others may want to discuss here too. You may save someone from a big mistake and if you are open minded someone may just save you from one. You NEVER KNOW.

                This is all just my opinion, and I certainly can not claim I am never wrong can you?

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                • Avatar Tom B. says:

                  “but neither of you have been ANSI complaint any more than any of us have been cause partial method is not complaint.”

                  Not true.

                  1. I have not idea nor do you what Chris has done.
                  2. I never said or have told anyone I have been ANSI compliant other than 95% there.
                  a lot of my work gets compared to one or two other appraisers at the same time. It is then reviewed by an appraiser. the reviewer is out of state. So two to three appraisals in realm of one week on one property reviewed by an out of state appraiser that for all I can tell over the course of 38 years has their shit totally together. I have the utmost respect for the reviewers that call me and want me to verbally defend my opinion and/or consider some additional information.

                  A: If you have a problem with Chris go talk to Chris. You are correct I dis agree that things below 5′ have no use and value. That’s where I live. I don;t know where you live or where he lives.

                  B. You suggested several things in 1.5 stories 5? ceiling height including add the built ins even if below 5’and comment on it . This voids the ANSI ……. NO NO NO.
                  I said up until now I was 95% compliant and I could deal with that situation as I thought made it easy to understand within the context of the limited narrative area of the FNMA 1004.

                  What I am saying is that now I will simply go strict ANSI and narrate that other stuff elsewhere. Let’s face it . FNMA sucks at designing appraisal forms. All the good stuff is in the narrative.

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                  • Avatar Chris says:

                    A specific ceiling height NEEDS to be set as a minimum. To me it should be the standard 8 feet. How would you feel about an entire floor being 5′ high? Would you pay top dollar for that? NOBODY would. In order for there to be any kind of appearance of professionalism there NEEDS to be a standard. This is SO obvious by this insane thread of comments here. Every house need to be measured the same no matter what part of the country it is in and no matter where the appraiser is from. There needs to be a minimum ceiling height. I have been in houses with basements (FINISHED) that have 5′ high ceilings and it is not at all usable by the typical adult. This should make ABSOLUTELY no difference in the appraisal since you are using similar styles and floor plans. Unless you are trying to only use sales that are not at all comparable there is no reason to complain, worry and vent over this.

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              • Avatar Doug Kues says:

                If we are going to bring me into the loop, my opinion is that the key word in the thread is not ANSI. It is the word REQUIRED that concerns me with every single adjustment I may make from now on….. or not. You give me three ANSI proficient appraisers and one house to measure with, say, six sides. My money says all three will have different answers and if any of them are within 1 square of accuracy, or even of each other, and I will show you a rigged election, not an accurate one.

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                • Avatar Tom B. says:

                  Yeah…. you are over thinking it. Of course they will be different. To a minor degree.

                  That’s what FNMA has said. They get results Waaaaay out or EXACTLy on.

                  If you take ten appraisers on one house with ANSI you will only get minor human errors.

                  You just nailed it!!!

                  Thank you!!!

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          • Avatar Doug Kues says:

            ….. accuracy within 1/10th of a foot per measurement, and within 1 square foot overall leaves plenty of room for error? What am I missing?

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            • Avatar Tom B. says:

              Comps less than a mile away.
              Comps under 90 days.
              Snow surrounding the exterior of the building.
              About a hundred other things.

              The standard is not that you must be accurate (0.10) and precise(0.10 of actual).

              The standard is … record and present your measurements to ( 0.10) regardless of how precise you may be able obtain.

              You will not always be able to hit the bullseye but we can measure how far off the bullseye you are to the 0.10 of an inch.

              I measure the house 24.7
              You measure the house 24.9
              Next 24.6
              Next 24.8
              Next 24.7
              Next 25.5 — Winter in the snow
              Next 25
              Next etc..

              Take all your measurements.

              24.7 x 53.2 x 25 x 53.5 = something close to 1325.748
              Rounded = 1326

              So the next guy has 1324, 1330, 1320

              That is Waaaaaay different than saying well I’ll include that open foyer.

              Now he has 1424, 1430, 1420.

              Oh and teh 200sf family room open to below

              Now be has 1624, 1630, 1620

              What you are missing is 1326 you got by ANSI as best you could to the 0.10 inch and 1630 by not using ANSI….. that’s 300sf. Could be an issue.

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            • Avatar chris says:

              Doug….They are crying because they now have to measure the subject, they will now have to think about the comps GLA and estimate instead of just using assessor data. Things us real appraiser have been doing most of our careers. Others are trying to tell us its an infringement on their rights of independence. Others don’t want to change. Others just don’t want to get with the program. And some others are just not smart enough to get the bigger picture. Realtors and laymen will now know how we have to measure and all the phone calls about discrepancies of GLA will be over….

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        • Avatar chris says:

          BA….most of us have been doing this for 30 years…those of you who have not will get used it it… it defines what “livable space is…no more 5′ ceiling counted as GLA, which they should never have been….for obvious reasons… They define what an finished attic is now..No big deal, give it was much value even as much as GLA if that is what the market does. No big deal…No more appraisers using gross building area instead of actual GLA…No big deal…..People just hate change..that is all this is..,,,its not a big deal.I for one am glad its finally here. I am sick of having to explain this to dozens of people every year. Now the realtors will be taught….YA !!!

          You don’t have to be ANSI compliant with the comps, Do the best you can…this is just a standard of measuring properties…here are the highlights….

          Measurements are taken to the nearest inch or tenth of a foot, and the final square footage is reported to the nearest whole square foot.
          Staircases are included in the GLA of the floor from which they descend.
          Basement is any space that is partially or completely below grade.
          The GLA calculation does not include openings to the floor below, e.g., two-story foyers.
          Finished areas must have a ceiling height of at least 7’. In a room with a sloping ceiling, at least 50% of the finished square footage of the room must have a ceiling height of at least 7’ and no portion of the finished area that has a ceiling height of less than 5’ can be included in the GLA.
          If a house has a finished area that does not have a ceiling height of 7’ for 50% of the finished area, e.g., some cape cods, in conformance with the ANSI Standard, the appraiser may put this area on a separate line in the Sales Comparison Grid with the appropriate market adjustment. The report will be ANSI-compliant and also acknowledge the contributing value of the non-GLA square footage.

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          • Avatar BA says:

            Do you understand that GRID adjustments are data driven? So yes ANSI is fine but once you start using a standard method of measuring claimed to be the most accurate you accept the liability of error. Cause the method if done correctly is accurate to a VERY SHORT degree of error. Again back to the Data THERE IS NONE for these things and won’t be for years if ever. IT DEPENDS ON THE MARKET AND MARKET REACTION. Not anyone’s opinion.
            REALTORS WILL NOT BE TAUGHT ANSI . TOO much liability!!
            I have been measuring 1.5 stories correctly all of my career and doing the stairs as required as well. SO PLEASE STOP disregarding this! You are not the only one here who was measuring these things correctly. You are very degrading when you act like no one else was as good, smart or accurate as you. There are and were plenty of us.

            Finally unless you did all of this for all 30 years and I don’t think that is really accurate, due to the 2020 updates …YOU were not ANSI compliant. Sorry not my word ANSI’s.

            We need to move on to something we can all learn from instead of the same Ol same Ol over and over. Let’s talk about MARKET adjustments and the Grid and the things many of us are concerned over that you really do not seem to want to address. ANSI TELLS US HOW TO MEASURE so you are really just parroting ANSI now. Matched pair, Data driven market reaction, lets cover those thing according to the ACCURATE STANDARDS

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            • Avatar Tom B says:

              @BA
              “REALTORS WILL NOT BE TAUGHT ANSI . TOO much liability!!’

              Why do you paint with such a wide brush?

              I know a local appraiser that has been teaching real estate agents and brokers in my market for just under 40 years. He is good at what he does. We had the same mentor. I have reviewed his work and it wouldn’t surprise me to know he has reviewed mine.

              I looked on Youtube yesterday to find something about helping me build some spreadsheets. Not my strong point. Best one I found was an appraiser teaching his local MLS agents over ZOOM. 2 hour video

              Brokers and agents can choose to ignore it but generally the law says a licensed professional “should have known”

              In VA an appraisal class is part of the broker qualification process. You can’t be an agent if you don’t work for a broker. So if the broker is stupid enough to not educate his agents that’s his problem.

              It’s going to sound kinda strange in court when the appraiser tells the judge he taught the broker the ANSI standard and he passed the class at the right side of the bell curve.

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              • Avatar BA says:

                I am a Realtor and have been for 25 years.
                Unless you are a Realtor you can not possibly know the state of a Realtor’s training. It is not as much or as detailed as you seem to think. I have to laugh at your thought that Realtors will ever measure by any method other than “the owner stated” GLA just as they do now here and many other states. Realtors do NOT want the liability of ANSI. They are too hands off for that . No one requires accuracy as they are not involved with the loan process like we are. They don’t even meet their clients for contracts…DOT LOOP. IT’s so much worse than it has ever been.. So you can count them out for ANSI. For the Real Estate license the training is brief on the subject of appraisals and they are taught simple length x width GLA. But even with MLS trying to get the reporting more accurate, Realtors still count below Ground level rooms and bathrooms in the above grade room count. ITs to draw buyers not for accuracy. The Code of ethics covers honesty but there is no way to prove intent with this. NAR will never allow ANSI requirements for Realtors IMO as I said there is just too much liability. NAR doesn’t want more liability for Realtors
                I speak with both Real Estate and the Appraisal Code enforcement fairly often. I was told that the last 2 years had record complaints…..Appraisers against Realtors
                Second MLS does not require a whole lot from Realtors. Core logic is an advertising form. They would like agents to be honest and not misleading but they do not check to see if they are. Other agents are supposed to watch dog the listings for accuracy and then send a flag off to the MLS team. Once they are sold there is nothing done at all.
                MLS does not have to worry about accuracy cause they are not entering anything.
                In my area the MLS stopped the ” Coming soon” because the agents here abused it so badly that Core logic stopped it. But the Board President in his monthly news letter told all the Realtors in the Association to ignore the MLS as to ending coming soon , keep doing it and just get the owners permission. !!
                Brokers are not responsible for agent’s actions anymore. Too many agents for a Broker to baby sit.
                All courses have to be approved by the state, I have yet to see ANSI as an approved state course for Realtors. Even the Appraisal course for ANSI is non credited unless given through an approved provider.
                Since core logic owns many of the institutions now some have dropped Real Estate classes altogether. Boards offer free CE and the providers could not compete with free.
                Most of this I posted earlier, you must have scrolled on by.

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                • Avatar Tom B says:

                  “I am a Realtor and have been for 25 years.
                  Unless you are a Realtor you can not possibly know the state of a Realtor’s training.”

                  I have been a Realtor for 38 years.

                  I was a licensed real estate agent before you were a Realtor.

                  I passed the Virginia State education requirements and State administered Broker exam before you were a Realtor.

                  When I took the required Real Estate Law class the Attorney announced that he had never had a student never miss a question on his quizzes and exams.

                  He then handed me my test papers and said congratulations, you are the first.

                  Anyone with a few hundred bucks can be a Realtor.

                  Yeah,,, I’ve never heard of any of those scenarios you speak of. Who is Core Logic. Do they drill wells in your area?

                  NAR? I have heard of them. Novell Authorized Reseller Yeah, I was a Novell server admin too for the local power company. i had a rough year right before Y2K, wife’s company got bought out, business was slow, I went back into IT work. did appraisals at night and weekends. You might have heard of the company I worked for, Dominion Resources. I worked as desktop support for a Win95 roll out for the business dept. Had about 100 managers I took care of as they restructured. Five minutes after I walked on the floor a girl walked over to me and said here’s your login info. You have 5 servers. Check them out. If you have questions call so and so.

                  Go to YouTube – type in One James River Plaza Dominion. Look for the third window below the top level of windows. It overlooks the James River. That was my cubicle. Dominion has it’s own bank, phone system, and security force.

                  But I’m just a dumb ass. Thanks for getting me on the straight and narrow. I’m going to fumble my way around now and try to find that ANSI Measuring thread. Sorry to have disrupted your FNMA Valuation thread.

                  You are probably right. I don’t know fertilizer from shoe polish.

                  Well actually I shouldn’t say that. Having appraised quite a few “gentleman’s farms” as we call them or small equestrian properties. I actually have learned how to spot ho****h*t when I’m in it’s prescience.

                  Adios amigo.

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                  • Avatar BA says:

                    Well that’s more about you isn’t it. How very qualified you are and how the rest of us are not. The whole theme here IMO. I have complemented you on several occasions and was more than respectful to you. All you hang on is the one point you see that’s negative. Thats sad Tom. IF you only want praise and adoration then Blogs may not be your thing. Others opinions deserve as much consideration as yours even if you are more than qualified and have all the answers. No one was rude or condescending to you but really look at the posts and you will see that is the theme here from you. I think you may have a lot to contribute AND so do many others if you let them. I’m sure everyone welcomes your opinions and answers and any knowledge you wish to share but it all cannot be about your opinions and thoughts…. Sorry
                    I do find it odd that with all your ability and training the things you said about Real Estate agents, their training, the brokers and more was very incorrect. I had shared way back on here that I am a Ral Estate agent. When you started telling me how well-trained Realtors are, even on appraising and so on and how they will now do ANSI I felt I needed to clip paste my earlier post so you knew I was an Agent still active. That was meant to inform nothing more.

                    The very fact you choose to “investigate me” while remaining anonymous shows you need an upper hand and an insinuation of superiority or threat.
                    National Association of Realtors = NAR. Core Logic = Parent of MLS here and other States.
                    All you had to do was ask no “”covert OP” was needed. LOL

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                    • Avatar Tom B. says:

                      “The very fact you choose to “investigate me” while remaining anonymous shows you need an upper hand and an insinuation of superiority or threat.
                      National Association of Realtors = NAR. Core Logic = Parent of MLS here and other States.
                      All you had to do was ask no “”covert OP” was needed. LOL”

                      Dude are you serious? ….. Holy Cow.

                      Do you honestly think I don’t know who NAR and Core Logic area?
                      LOL
                      I’ve posted screen shots of my software from CoreLogic. They own my MLS… LOL

                      Investigating you? What in the hell are you talking about? I don’t even know who you are.

                      YOU went off telling me if I was Realtor … Well I’ve been a Realtor long before you were. So fn what? Who cares?

                      I’ve never said I’m better than you. Never said I was better than anyone here. I don’t even want to be. In fact if there is someone here better than me I want them to teach me.

                      I’m not better than anyone. I have my own unbiased opinion. I do it my way.

                      Oh BTW… ignore those black helicopters

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            • Avatar Chris says:

              Do you actually rely on what a realtor says about the GLA? The one with only 1 goal in mind, Sell for the most they can possibly get worth it or not. They add in decks, basements, garages, sheds just to pretend it is bigger than it is. They say Full basement when it is not, had one agent tell me how wonderful this “Full basement” is while we were standing at the opening to the crawl space looking in. Very rarely have I ever relied on a realtors statement of size and only when it is specifically broken down and is consistent with assessors records for the areas I am sure about and I am familiar with the style/model house. 99.99999% of the time the GLA listed on the listing is made up. SO why worry about what a realtor says? You have to provide proof of your data beyond the listing agent who do you use, the sellers?

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            • Avatar chris says:

              BA…I have been ANSI compliment for 30 years. Everyone from the 50 appraiser office I was taught by has been ANSI complaint for OVER 30 years.

              This is long over due.

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          • Avatar Tom B says:

            “BA….most of us have been doing this for 30 years…those of you who have not will get used it it… it defines what “livable space is…no more 5? ceiling counted as GLA, which they should never have been….for obvious reasons… ”

            That’s a good point and I would like add just one other perspective. In our newer construction that generally works fine.

            If I go into the city where the homes are 70 to 120 years old a lot of multiple renovation happens. If someone builds in bookcases, wires up entertainment systems, a wet bar, portions of a bathroom, etc.. The under 5′ sections can in fact be the most expensive and marketable segments of that floor. In fact they are.

            In the past, I used my judgement, knowledge of the market as to what modern buyers were paying for, and made a judgement call as to how I measured that room and compared it to other sales. I never really liked that but I thought it was fair. I described in report what I was doing and why. It was my opinion.

            Now I don’t have that worry. I can cut all that out and place it elsewhere. If it slices through a new bathroom, AND, if it eliminates the $5000 of cabinets, and if it eliminates the wet bar… I will simply note that in narrative.

            For the Non-ANSI people here.

            In that above scenario. My photographs would have a line drawn through them showing bath, wet bar, cabinets, etc. cut out.

            Comp1 = None of that stuff. It’s just an un-renovated unaltered space equal to my ANSI section.

            Comp2 = Similar renovation. Similar space. Similar overall value as buyer sees it.

            My adjustments

            Comp1 = +$75K
            Comp2 = 0 — provided overall finished suuare footage is equal to my subject.

            Subject ANSI = 2000 non-ANSI = 300 Total = 2300
            Comp2 MLS = 2300

            So Comp 1 GLA line will be pretty much 0

            Comp2 GLA will be a -$75K in GLA due to how MLS reported it. Best data I have.

            My additional lines
            ANSI Dim Area————Comp1 +$75K
            ————————————Comp2 0

            Comp1 sold $400k and adjusts to $475K
            Comp2 sold $475K and adjusts to $475K

            Subject sold $475K

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        • Avatar Chris says:

          BA…. What strings are you referring to?. Nothing has changed except the way appraisers now need to report GLA. No more including a 5-ft attic into GLA, no more including an open foyer as GLA, no more reporting open family rooms as GLA. A 5 ft room on a second floor is now officially a finished attic. There is no conspiracy hear me nobody is out to get us. If anyone here tells me a 5-ft finished attic has the same value as the first floor, then they have been fooling themselves for their entire careers.

          As to market-based adjustments, our adjustments have always been market-based until recently with the computerization of appraisals, appraisers have relied on various methods of determining a price per square foot.

          When the praiser God say the adjustments have to be market-based, what that means is no more absurd adjustments at the appraisers discretion, that wording is used when appraisers do not use even close to a typical adjustment that would be found in the market. They now can read our reports and compare appraisers and their adjustments in different value ranges of properties.

          Some of these appraisers think that there is a conspiracy going on. I find it ludicrous.

          And because so many people respond to what I say, I never said realtors would utilize the ANSI method of measuring, but they will finally be taught that we appraisers are using that method and that is why our reports do not reflect what assessors report.

          That is all, a finished attic is a finished attic, no more counting it as a bedroom to help out the property’s bedroom counter for a higher appraised value, no more using gross building area instead of gross living area.

          The fact that so many of these appraisers are upset tells me they haven’t been paying attention and have been just form fillers relying on data driven by computers instead of the market reaction.

          And I will say it again, we all went through this 15 years ago, when they talked about below grade and above grade.

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    • Avatar BA says:

      I SO TOTALLY AGREE. SO WELL SAID!! THANK YOU. This has been my concern. Expressed since I came here to this site.

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  117. Avatar BA says:

    FROM FNMA
    “When the subject property has an area that does not meet the ANSI minimum ceiling height requirements, the additional square footage must be reported on an additional line in the adjustment grid and an -APPROPRIATE MARKET ADJUSTMENT applied, if warranted. Additionally, the appraiser must provide and explanation in the report for how this area was handled in order to comply with the ANSI standard and also acknowledge any contribution of the additional square footage.”
    So here it is. “MARKET adjustment” not just experience and knowledge of the style and area. Do not fall into this hole. Now as already stated you cannot adjust what you have not inspected or cannot get reliable data on. IN this case GLA has to be measured for accuracy as there is no ANSI GLA DATA on homes not yet measured with ANSI. You know apples to apples.

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  118. Avatar BA says:

    Copied from https://www.datamasterusa.com/
    Three requirements for accurate data
    1. Accuracy
    Is the data source known to be typically correct, factual, consistent, and precise? Is the data required to be entered in a uniform format? In other words, a data source such as the MLS may require certain data points such as site size to be entered in a consistent and specific data format.

    Illustration
    An assessor’s office has recently been found by a governmental oversight committee to have produced property records that are neither accurate nor uniform in an effort to lessen the tax burden on those well-connected to various local community leaders. This finding has been well-reported in the local market’s news sources. In this case, the assessor property records would be considered to be an unreliable source by an appraiser until the assessor’s office has remedied the discovered concerns about the property records.

    On the other hand, an assessor’s office that is known to employ a state-of-the-art property data gathering system that is verified on a biannual schedule by an independent source and discloses all records such as sketches, property ratings, and calculations which allows the public to replicate the assessor’s work may be deemed as a reasonably reliable source by an appraiser.

    2. Trustworthiness
    Is the data source considered to be objective, impartial, and credible?

    Illustration
    Exaggerations pertaining to a specific outcome may compromise or alter the neutral perspectives of the data. For example, relying on property details as listed in a “For Sale by Owner” listing may be determined to be unreliable data as the author of the data (the homeowner/seller) may exaggerate positives of the property or under-report negative concerns of the property, all in an effort to sell the property quickly and at the highest price point possible.

    3. Timeliness
    Is the data from a time period suitable for the appraisal’s effective date? How often is the data updated? Data would be measured on timeliness if it is a dynamic record rather than a static record. For example, if an appraiser was confirming the year built of the subject dwelling and found that it was built in 1955, she could rely on this data even though its reporting date was 10 years ago, since the year built does not change over time. However, the appraiser would not want to rely on MLS data that is 10 years old for determining the property’s current condition, modernization, and quality for an appraisal with a current effective date. The subject home may have undergone remodeling or renovations over the past 10 years, or the subject dwelling may not have been maintained over the past 10 years, either of which could drastically impact the appraisal assignment results.

    Illustration
    The accuracy of some data may decay over time. For example, data about the subject property’s condition, interior finishes, and modernization are just a few items that may significantly alter over time. Thus, as a precautionary measure to limit liability to the appraiser and in an effort to adequately inform the client, the appraiser should disclose the effective date of sources of data—especially data points that are impacted by the passage of time.

    As an illustration, perhaps an appraiser is relying on an aerial image of the subject property captured three years ago. The appraiser should indicate the effective date of the satellite image in the appraisal report, as the subject property may have been altered in the past three years in a way that negatively or positively impacts the subject’s marketability or value.

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  119. Avatar Doug Kues says:

    Does anyone know of a way to print each and every blog comment and response in one effort? Like select all and print, but I am not having much luck and would REALLY like to have all these thoughts, even the pissing contest ones, for posterity. No particular reason, but FNMA changes frequently; USPAP changes every year or two, and ANSI was just revised in 2020. Sure would like to track how the dust settles from the beginning of the requirements first being implemented and argued. And, by the way, the basic and very simple solution to all these rules that paint us into an ever decreasing sized corner….. is just to reverse the rolls (like every single other profession in existence) and have the service provider (us) write the assignment parameters instead of the client. If, when some enterprise calls you and wants your services, YOU tell them what you provide, how much it might cost, and when they can have the finished product. They can decide whether or not to retain you, and we, like doctors and lawyers, have a license to practice what we do, and what we provide is our opinion of the estimated value of real property. How we all got sucked into being told what to do, how to do it, what we can charge for what we know, and even gouging us to upload (yunno, the administrative process that the client dictates the delivery method of YOUR product, after telling you that you cannot include an invoice for services with your order; and for which they can reduce your fee if you are a day late, but they refuse to pay late charges and pay whenever they damn well please…..yunno, THAT administrative process) is beyond me.

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    • Avatar Chris says:

      Doug… Every profession changes, doctors lawyers nurses, dentists, accountants and yes even us appraisers.

      The world turns and there’s nothing you can do about it.

      Just keep singing along and let the sun shine in.

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    • Avatar BA says:

      Doug,
      I agree and I think we can discuss these things and get some good conversations on these topic. I think we may have to move away from the sunshine man and his cohorts though JMO
      AGAIN I think the patients are running the Asylum!! Just take you pill and smile!!
      As far as the fee goes I tell every AMC that my fee will be increased by the upload fee so they are paying it not me. They always pay it .
      I also include the comment that the turn time will be 5 business days AFTER the inspection is facilitated and the due date must be adjusted to reflect my terms if the inspection is delayed. I do not let them bully me into the ol 24 or 48 hour BS. I have a schedule and just because their borrower delays does not mean STOP DROP AND ROLL for me. I tell them RUSH appraisals are always more !
      I think all of your comments and concerns are very valid , the same as most of us here. I believe they can all be addressed with logic.

      I do think this new rule of FNMA is a question of AIR /Dodd FRANK JMO

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      Hi Doug. On the point of saving this conversation for posterity. When I must have something I take image snips if they’re within a single page view. If not, you’re left with copy and paste which can be placed in notepad or a blank email draft. You will of course lose the formatting and it will be one giant giant block of language text, but I think it also copies the posters name and time of post so at least there is that. Otherwise you could use some sort of image capture in real time deal and just slowly scroll everything while you have that recording, play it back in slow motion later, but all you’d have is a visual of the text. Not sure if my browser settings inhibit the ‘print preview’ but I just get the article and no commentary so have turned generally to copy paste in an email for review before posting, that sort of thing.

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  120. Avatar BA says:

    What a shame that 3 or 4 or 5 who really knows maybe only 2 (Chris, chris and Chris and Tom B and Thomas Baldwin) people all parroting the same remarks over and over making this all about a measurement method. No matter what any of the more than 30 or 40 people here were concerned about the response from these 2, 3,4 or 5 repeated over and over their how to do ANSI and their “30,35,38 years of experience and their superior credentials AND NEVER addressed anyone with any LOGICAL comments addressing the REAL ISSUES THAT EVERYONE but they were posting about. What a shame that these people got belittling, rude and out right childishly stupid when any of us was supporting any idea of protesting the FNMA rules on this.
    One by one they chased everyone away by repeating over and over again the same “I have been ANSI compliment for 30 years. Everyone from the 50 appraiser office I was taught by has been ANSI complaint for OVER 30 years.” AND /OR “I have been writing appraisal reports for 30 years, and my market area, we’ve been using ANSI for 30 years, I came from an office with 25 assistance and 25 appraisers, they were handling 500 to 700 appraisals a week” ” OR most of us have been doing this for 30 years…those of you who have not will get used it!!
    Or other demeaning self-gratifying, narcistic remarks !! No intelligent communication and some really ridicules “solutions” on just guessing GLA and other completely non responsive illogical comments! ALL THE SUGGESTIONS WERE NOT ANYTHING ANY OF THE APPRAISERS WOULD EVER DO. IMO ALL THEIR WORK AROUNDS …READ UM …CRAZY!!
    Now think about it, if these guys really had all of that experience, those credentials why couldn’t they speak about anything other than how stupid all of the rest of us were and then repeat over and over how to measure by ANSI standards and demean us ALL for not being as smart as they are?? Why no concern over all the things the rest of the APPRAISERs here NOTED. Not once did any of them address any of the other REAL topics. I don’t think they had answers for us and could not add any real substance to our thread. So why be here? They clearly did not speak APPRAISER LANGUAGE with the exception of ANSI.
    Slowly one by one they attacked each person till there’s no one left. Not one person speaking about the problems FNMA has created. No one left who was asking for unity and standing up against FNMA on the appraisal direction of this NEW requirement!
    WHY IS THAT ??? NO CHRIS ,CHRIS and cHRIS , TOM AND THOMAS IT IS NOT ABOUT ANSI AND AS WE ALL SAID MANY TIMES IT NEVER WAS and you knew it. !!

    So REALLY, WE LET FNMA SUPPORTERS OR REPS (?) win! They shut us down so no more talk or support for anyone who is logically concerned about the out come of this NEW requirement FNMA has created. NO more comments on this thread about rejecting or contesting this or FNAM? NO more help suggestions on eliminating risk. No comments or brain storming about how to avoid jeopardizing our licenses or E&O rates. Why would they care if we commented about THOSE things and Not about ANSI?

    YOU THINK THAT SOUNDS CRAZY WELL… WHERE ARE THEY NOW??? THEY ARE SILENT ……….HMMMM I think I called it way up the thread.

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    • Avatar Chris says:

      To me its about consistent standard of measurement across the entire country so the average homeowner can get the most consistent results, as far as actual facts of the house, when getting a house appraised. All I see are people saying things like houses no longer have second floors, now this area below grade is suddenly a basement but M&S says it cost more than a basement to build but less than full above grade (Can you guess why), I cant round to the nearest foot etc.. The most basic part of ANY appraisal is the sketch and specifics about the house that anyone that is a non appraiser can verify. I have seen way too many lazy and stupid appraisers cut and paste the assessors sketch never measuring the house because it takes too long and is way to hard. Or appraisers incapable of using the ACTUAL measurements because fractions scare them. Thats just lazy and stupid. If a room has 5 or 6 foot ceilings it is not functional. If you have such a thing you use sales of the same style so this, I have no second floor junk is a worthless argument because your sales are the same. If anyone has been including very low ceiling areas as living area or including basements as above grade GLA then you didnt get anything out of appraising 101. Use the same style houses, do let the realtors dictate what you do and everything will be fine. I have never said I am superior in any way to any other appraiser. I think I am no more than average overall. I am just pointing out that an average guy with average skills can do this, has been for a long time and has had no issues that have been found to be unsupported as far as measuring and functional use goes.

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      • Avatar BA says:

        WE ALL KNOW WHAT YOUI THINK YOU HAVE BEEN TELLING US ALL FOR DAYS… WEEKS …WHAT YOU THINK. AND I MIGHT ADD IN A VERY BELITTLING CHILDISH WAY. Everyone here does not think what you think because there are a lot of flaws in what you think as far as Appraising is concerned.

        I read every post here. Only 1 person made the statement you few (if there are a few of you) people hang on. At the time he was working in his career years ago and area I believe there is NO way for you or any of us to say so arrogantly he was wrong. If you think Martin was so wrong let me tell you ..YOU have made some ridicules statements that are much more in error then anyone here. IMO You all are the only one’s here that have to make a point of YOUR CREDIENTIALS. WHO CARES !!! IF you slipped by on credential and none the home owners got an accurate appraisal then what good are credentials? Really all of you never read OUR comments or you would not have (ALL 2?3?4?5 or what ever ) been saying the same thing OVER AND OVER.

        ANYONE CAN CLAIM ANYTHING HERE ! The fact you and the rest of the Chrises and Toms never said anything like Appraisers think leads me to the conclusion that YOU are simply Posers…. HERE TO SHUT THIS DOWN!!
        Just in the way you approach a problem and your flippant silly solution tells me you are not appraisers. If you are then even your current comments show a lack of knowledge of the STANDARDS, USPAP and how too properly ascertain value. You could have really benefitted from others here IMO. You all are great with measuring of the subject part I GUESS (BUT SO ARE THE REST OF US!!) anyone can read a book! but THERE’S A WHOLE LOT MORE TO APPRAISING!!

        You do not even understand the most basic principals of Appraising in the real world and do not seem to think there is anything else to consider in an opinion of value. and OR IN FNMA ACTION!

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        • Avatar chris says:

          BA…I am trying to get you to think. Sometimes you have to get people a little mad to get their head back. All I have read is appraisers saying their rights have been taken away, or they will be sued, or using ANSI somehow will mislead the reader of the report. or the realtors will get mad or the builders will get mad, or they will now have to put a comment in their report that ANSI was used….

          I am so sorry it bothers you that some of us have been using ANSI all of our carriers. Why don’t you believe that?

          Myself and the other Chris have gone to such extent to try to calm some of you guys down. The other Chris actually had to give an appraisal 101 lesson to someone on this site that I considered to be an expert.

          We all type these response in different frames of thought. Some good some not so good, my apologies for getting aggravated.

          I have lost so much respect for some of our fellow appraisers, auguring the difference between gross building area versus gross LIVING area.

          Its mind boggling and very frustration trying to talk to some of you, now you are accusing me as not being an appraiser, is that your way of trying to justify to yourself that you and some others are right? Some want to boycott the lenders to “teach” them a lesson”….others are mad they they were not included in the discussion about moving to ANSI.

          Really?

          “The fact you and the rest of the Chris’s and Toms never said anything like Appraisers think leads me to the conclusion that YOU are simply Posers…. HERE TO SHUT THIS DOWN!!”

          What do you mean think? Are you mad that we are not agreeing with you?

          “Just in the way you approach a problem and your flippant silly solution tells me you are not appraisers.”

          What flippant silly solution ? You mean just accept the new standard? Or stop making a mole hill into a mountain…

          Good luck my friend….Lord knows me and the other Chris and others have tried.

          Good luck with ANSI…

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          • Avatar BA says:

            WOW really this is exactly what I (many of us) mean… you ask a question of me then YOU answer it!! Don’t you want to know what I mean or think or do? You just want to ASSUME you have MY answer?

            Chris or chris or Chirs did not have to teach anyone here anything. He chose to see himself in THAT all knowing capable position. I do not recall anyone asking anyone about 101! Further ALL of you are incorrect in your answers for any of the questions or concerns here. You all know you were condescending, (even in your latest post here) rude and downright awful here more than once. How is that helpful or INTELLEGENT?
            You all have a way of answering a question not asked and none of you are reading other people’s comments. IF you were than you would see everyone but you and whoever the other 2,3,4 or 5 are….ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT ANSI in the way you all just ASSUME (cause you’re not READING). This is so elementary and your contrary and silly assumptions on my thoughts are equally just wrong.
            The more people who stopped posting the more you targeted those who were left…till now crickets. Do you find that stimulating, educational or impressive? I don’t !

            The fact that you say “GOOD LUCK WITH ANSI” to me, proves this. Why not go back and read so you can catch up …or don’t ….I really do not care if you get it or not …I see so far NOT!!

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            • Avatar Chris says:

              BA,
              So you are that guy in all CE classes that doesn’t shut up about what he knows, assumes he knows more than anyone there, including the instructor, and wastes everyone time taking about what he knows, what he believes and how he thinks everything should be done.

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      • Avatar Doug Kues says:

        It really is a shame that this blog turned South early on. ANSI, while certainly worthy of discussion and taking a position on, will not solve the real “appraisal problem” that we all have, and it really isn’t an effective tool anyway, but what the heck do I know. Being one of those AG certifieds from the very beginning (to early to get trained by anyone above me) since 1992, and licensed in real estate since 1971, and a broker since 1991, in a rural and complex market where there was no building department (or effective assessor) until the mid 1960s, with a substantial percentage of homes on hillsides and built well before permits existed, we have our challenges. Nonetheless, years ago I could tell you what a home or small commercial property (that’s all we have around here) would likely sell for within a couple of thousand dollars by walking through it. While licensing for this ability was inevitable, and probably necessary, the imploding rules then implemented and the scope creep that evolved because the cart was leading the horse has severely lessened the reliability of ALL appraisals in my opinion. Think about it….. how Fannie will reject a loan over a missing water heater strap; or in my case feeling the pressure to always tell them in writing that this home built 80 years ago still has a remaining economic life of over 30 years (or, more accurately, exactly 30 years so that they can do their loan if I expect to keep getting assignments from them, is what has ruined the profession). Look at FHA. The concept has gone from value to health and safety, and the appraiser has gone from valuation professional to home inspector….. all with increasing liability. Now, we all know that the primary motivation for sanctions and license revocation by BREA is allocated to terrible adjustments either intentionally or otherwise, and yet virtually all policy changes trickle down to a direct influence on the risk we take doing our jobs. Fellow bloggers, I can generally still tell you what a home will sell for in my market within a 3-5% margin in minutes without any sort of report, but I sure do notice that my reports now are 50-60 pages long with 16 pages of disclaimer and scope of work clarifications, combined with the myriad of rules having little or nothing to do with value or marketability……. and that my margin of error because of all that is now 10-12% based on following the mandated guidelines that really should not be appraisal industry standards that are enforceable. I can still tell you pretty close by reasonable observation what your property will sell for because of all the years hanging around this market area and industry, and really don’t even need to know what the square footage is. Was so hoping to be a helpful participant in this blog and to gain some serious insight into the overall impact……. but too much time wondering where all this banter is coming from, and why we can’t…..as a large group with a substantial voice……keep things in line without blind submission. Go figure.

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        • Avatar chris says:

          Doug,,,,its not about just a value on a home, the loans need to be sold. Every change that has occurred, past listing history, past sales history, how many active and sold are there, the MC form, supply interior photos, supply both sides of the street, The C and Q ratings..
          Is all because appraisers were cheating to keep making the deals for their clients.

          And that is how we got management companies

          ANSI is long over due.

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          • Avatar Doug Kues says:

            Chris…..swear this is not intended to be confrontational, but I strongly disagree with your last message. The fact that loans have to be sold is not our problem; lenders order valuation assignments from us so that THEY can make an informed decision. WE are retained to provide an opinion of “value” only. I have NEVER been retained to be a photographer; a pest inspector; structural engineer; appliance functionality expert, and so on, and neither have you. We have allowed the scope creep to happen, and it has swallowed us whole and spit out form filling order takers instead of qualified professionals. Personally, I have never “cheated” to make a deal work for a client / lender on my own, and the pressure to overlook deficiencies and fabricate remaining economic life so that a lender can make their deal is unacceptable from ANY viewpoint. In addition, and as a direct result of the invasions of privacy put on us by those that rely on our services to “make their deal”, please understand that mandatory background checks (also at our expense if they get their way), have become a necessity if we are to keep getting assignments….. from…. those….. that…. wish….. to….. have….. a….. perfect…. scapegoat. Note the differences in your own E&O coverage these past few years if you think I am making this stuff up.

            In the very sincere hopes that you simply take this for what it is worth, ignore or digest it, and please don’t message back telling me I don’t understand. I do.

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            • Avatar chris says:

              Doug…if you don’t provide a sketch..the appraisal cant be used…if you don’t supply a map….yada yada yada, past sales history, pictures…everything we do with our appraisals is so the loan CAN be sold and bought by investors..Whoever they are. All the addendum commentary is needed….my point being its just not about a value.

              “We have allowed the scope creep to happen, and it has swallowed us whole and spit out form filling order takers instead of qualified professionals.”

              What in the world are you talking about….we allowed….no sir, we are told by the appraisal GODS of what they need..its not the other way around…

              Which brings us back to ANSI standard….its their call, if they dont want 5′ attics counted a GLA…then that s is what we do….or stop doing appraisals.

              You say you never cheated, glad to hear but I did reviews for the big boys in this country for 5 years, the funders with the money, I used to have to rewrite the appraisals (which is why they sent them to me) and every one they sent, i said the same thing at the end of the review”my review and my appraisal and the appraisers appraisal should be sent to the state agency for peer review.”

              None of them ever did, I asked why…I was old because they like the lender and the appraiser cheats too much sometimes, so they have to weed out the ones that would jeopardize the loan pool from being returned by the investor.

              I replied…how do you know your are finding them all? then the mortgage buy backs started, then they want to take the appraisers license…so they asked my to handle license revocation case, i didn’t want to so I told them $500/hr including my drive time and they agreed.

              Before I had too, they went down like fly’s in a few months during 2006 and 2007, just gone….bye bye clients and hear came HVCC destroying us.

              They knew all along and did nothing !!

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              • Baggins Baggins says:

                Chris regarding your comment on forensic review. There are no appraisal gods. There are bureaucrat humans with every possible shortcoming the rest of us may have whom are working at FNMA though.

                Since when did ANSI set the working group policies for the FNMA committees? Again, due process matters. By what mechanism of due process did the ANSI group achieve this perceived power and influence when there is so much obvious resistance to this approach?

                I would have sworn your post would deserve a ‘where you reviewing amc originated appraisals’ response, until I read the time frame. Yeah, lender malfeasance. That was proved beyond a doubt and Coumo swept it under the rug and nobody went to jail. The vast majority of mortgage brokers whom pushed those loans were washed out of this industry over ten years ago, longer now. Back then everyone and their mother was a part time mortgage broker. You’ve highlighted known indisputable facts about the malfeasance which has been integrated into big lending for some time.

                Again, why should all appraisers be blamed for the actions of other people whom don’t respect long standing principals of ethical engagement and fair dealing? Adopting the principals of submission by force is what got us here in the first place. Many of those appraisers were intimidated and coerced. They did fail in their ethical obligations to turn down orders but for those of us whom lived through that time as 1099’s, it was nary that simple. I used to run two dozen ‘comp searches’ to land a single order. The ‘lions share’ concept started with number hitting and comp searching then merely morphed into price shopping with amc’s pocketing the difference, not returning cost savings to consumers. A portion of that funnels back to the mortgage departments with the largest players. Appraisers are still to this day providing a thing of value to be the preferred assignee, in violation of the management rule. And now we have appraisers advocating the concept we are no longer qualified to manage ourselves or make our own professional judgment decisions to have a hand in crafting scope of work to achieve what we believe, and sign our names on the dotted line; to bring the most credible assignment results. Be careful what you wish for.

                Whatever with the bundling of mortgage securities under one uniform engagement, it is not the appraisers job to alter or control municipal standards nor should we deviate from them. Although if you have problems in your area it is wise to advocate for local reform. The origination is national and international but the appraisal of real property has always been and will always be a local effort. The empty bag of mortgage backed securities is a consequence of the federal reserve system, not due to any shortcoming of the appraiser industry as a collective group. Some of the initial posters here called it and called it well; redirecting blame for everything to the appraiser. Scapegoat syndrome.

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                • Avatar chris says:

                  Baggins…I call them appraisal gods…why? Because they just made an entire industry use ANSI

                  You can call them what ever you want. But them having that kind of power….makes them GODS in my book

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                  • Baggins Baggins says:

                    O.k. Chris. You know what, I’m going to get with you on this specific one. A god does not have to respect or abide any due process existing and in place. They can do whatever they want like omnipotent beings, being able to disregard any and every rule of law and due process.

                    You have experience and examples to illustrate a great many points of malfeasance and disregard for the rule of law. On that we agree such behavior and lack of ethic is unacceptable. However you then make use of the same principals which allowed such transgression by advocating for non negotiable mandates.

                    You can’t have your cake and eat it too. There is no such thing as new normal. There is either the presence of liberty or lack there of. There is either the presence of law and order, the due process which defines that, or lack there of.

                    I made this image special for the pro ANSI group. I hope you like it. LOL. Sorry Jamie, whomever you are, the message rings oh so true; stay humble and accept peer input. But you know, I used paint 3d to pop in a few new ‘elements’ of appraisal practice post ANSI era. It’s important for public safety considerations to understand the new definition of a basement. One no longer has to open doors or go down long flights of stair cases to end up in basements. One may inadvertently end up in the basement simply by going to the ground floor level of a tri level in what is commonly known to be ‘the living room’. Appraiser beware. The clowns always win.

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                    • Avatar chris says:

                      Baggins…..your words….A god does not have to respect or abide any due process existing and in place.

                      They can do whatever they want like omnipotent beings, being able to disregard any and every rule of law and due process.

                      Not sure why you are correcting me about the appraisal Gods…??? Sounds like God to me…maybe I am just misunderstanding your statement.

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                      • Baggins Baggins says:

                        I’m agreeing with you. While also throwing in the notion of false idols. Worship them if you want, I’ll pass.

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                        • Avatar chris says:

                          Baggins…got it false idol,,,,,wish we could convince some of the religious zealots in this country.

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                          • Baggins Baggins says:

                            For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
                            Matthew 6:21

                            We’ve got far more pressing issues than just ‘thumpers’ to deal with these days…

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              • Avatar don says:

                I’ve always provided a sketch roughing in the toilets, counters etc., and arithmetic from measuring. When I fill in functional utility, I remark about the obvious additions and dysfunctions, and issue a statement as to what IS a functional size. My basis goes from that point forward. The VA used to require it including the make of the built ins. This was a self-incrementing statement to ensure that you entered the house.

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            • Baggins Baggins says:

              Thank you Doug.

              Scope creep. An interesting concept to be aware of.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scope_creep

              aka; kitchen sink syndrome. Interesting, never knew that. And we’re not just dealing with ‘a project’, we’re dealing with a ‘mega project’. Interesting.

              This is an interesting reference piece in the references:
              https://books.google.com/books?id=BnuZBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA52#v=onepage&q&f=false

              Wow, that is a very interesting read, the details of scope creep.

              FNMA and ANSI are certainly using an evolutionary methodology here, but do not appear to have accepted much feedback. Enter the flood of criticism. I would copy pages of this if it was able to be copied. So much relevant concept there, what to quote… You know, they could have seen this coming.

              “To make matters worse, the purported benefits of the change are often unrealistically over estimated.” Yes sirE, we got a case of scope creep on our hands, one of the most insidious types, from within. That’s for sure. We’ve got problems.

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              • Avatar don says:

                Creepy scopes should be delt with a written contract, before the price is discussed, otherwise the lender can sigh the appraisal and keep the money. Appraisers can make their own mistakes, but not jeopardize his license.

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            • Avatar don says:

              Before B of A won a big case against a borrower, Bart Lyton, Litton S&L Stated that with ten points Litton S&L would make any loan
              The VA always wanted to know how much the seller was supporting the buyers financing.
              The appraiser includes the financing on the 1004 form and should comment on it. I heard recently that a buyer could get 14-year term with a 2 1/2% loan with some other concessions?
              Those kinds of concessions influence a closing and an offering price. Why not value.

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        • Avatar BA says:

          I totally agree with your statements. Great points that are appreciated and even shared by many here. So keep being informative. We need more open minded thinkers and more view points and more acceptance of ALL possibilities to evolve.
          We are adults here and I for one do not need everyone to agree with me or to LIKE me to be able to express an opinion or my experiences. I am not that insecure. I can allow others to express themselves and I welcome and respect that right without being threatened. I do not have to be submissive if I am in-fact happy with the validity of my process and secure in my experience and knowledge.

          YOU have had many great points and a lot of good thought provoking comments.
          We really need to keep exploring other problems and other possible liability with this new FNMA directive. IT may just need to be re written with more adherence to the Standards and the methods to deliver a reliable and accurate report. I would bet ANSI the organization would agree. I’m pretty sure that if anyone does not have the training to know what we do they cannot tell us how to do it. JMO
          As we all know ANSI is a uniform method of measuring. DOES IT APPLY to every industry and every product accurately? MAYBE. Does this uniform standard apply to diversity in people’s needs. preferences and/or values …I do not think so cause ANSI is logic and mathematical equation that is LEFT BRAIN processing. Most Real Estate is purchased with quite a bit of RIGHT Brain processing. ANSI totally ignores this very important fact. We as appraisers are TRAINED to consider it and determine its effects on our results.

          I read that the 2020 revision of ANSI was open for public review and objection. They follow the same procedure as USPAP.
          Why not require the same process for lenders mandates and “NEW PROCEDURES” Open them to a public form.

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      • Avatar don says:

        Chris, our United States Constitution due to our founders and enhanced by a War over STATES RIGHTS gave certain duties to the states, many of our congress people don’t know their position and impugn their constituency with ignorance. I’ve been around for over fifty years and heard many stories:

        My local assessor related their training program took uniformity into consideration, and they had good people from the construction, insurance, accounting and retired military etc.

        About Measuring: Start at the right side of the house read the first whole number, the next measurement read the nearest foot, and drop anything over SIX inches, the next include anything over six inches.

        Previously Appraisal textbooks didn’t discuss much about measuring. This stuff was adopted from the late 1940s thru the 1970s

        In California we passed Prop 13, and assessors no longer reassessed WHEN values fell lower as measured by the State Board of Equalization, Properties were appraised when the sold. There was no need to re-measure, it was assumed for the most part that they sold for market value. Complaints go on from there imagine the concoctions citizens dream up, or down

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    • Avatar ChrisChris says:

      Chris… Well said… Talk about jumping off the topic of a standization of measurement article.

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  121. Avatar BA says:

    I am not an Attorney…don’t mean to brag but I’m not and not…. LOL
    I cannot accurately state that anyone including any GSE is in violation of AIR.
    I do see a possible violation in the requirement of the ANSI compliance but more so in the reporting, adjusting and directing of methods that do not consider market value or misleading information in reporting or the REPORTING STANDARD.
    Anyone care to give a WELCOME OPINION?
    Snipped from the AIR doc
    ” I do hereby certify, I have followed the appraiser independence safeguards in compliance with Appraisal Independence and any applicable state laws I may be required to comply with. This includes but is not limited to the following:
    I am currently licensed and/or certified by the state in which the property to be appraised is located.

    ? I assert that no employee, director, officer, or agent of XXXXXXX AMC, LLC or any other third party acting as joint venture partner, independent contractor, appraisal management company, or partner on behalf XXXXXXX, influenced, or attempted to influence the development, reporting, result, or review of my appraisal through coercion, extortion, collusion, compensation, inducement, bribery, or in any other manner.
    ? I further assert that XXXXXX AMC and the Lender/Client have never participated in any of the following prohibited behavior in our business relationship:
    1) Withholding or threatening to with withhold timely payment or partial payment for an appraisal report;
    2) Withholding or threatening to withhold future business, with me, or demoting or terminating or threatening to demote or terminate me;
    3) Expressly or impliedly promising future business, promotions, or increased compensation for myself;
    4) Conditioning the ordering of my appraisal report or the payment of my appraisal fee or bonus the opinion, conclusion, or valuation to be reached, or on a preliminary value estimate requested from me;
    5) Requesting that I provide an estimated, predetermined, or desired valuation in an appraisal report prior to the completion of the appraisal report, or requesting that I provide estimated values or comparable sales at any time prior to my completion of an appraisal report;
    6) Provide me an anticipated, estimated, encouraged, or desired value for a subject property or a proposed or target amount to be loaned to the borrower, except that a copy of the sales contract for purchase transactions may be provided;
    7) Provided to me, or my appraisal company, or any entity or person related to me as appraiser, appraisal company, stock or other financial or non-financial benefits;
    8) Any other act or practice that impairs or attempts to impair my independence, objectivity, or impartiality or violates law or regulation, including, but not limited to, the Truth in Lending Act (TILA), Regulation Z, FIRREA, or the Uniform Standards of Professional Appraisal Practice (USPAP).”

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  122. Avatar BA says:

    WALKS LIKE DUCK…..QUACKS LIKE A DUCK….IT PROBABLY IS A DUCK.

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    • Avatar don says:

      In all endeavors, some are duck footed, some are pigeon toed, our words, actions and intent identify us.

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  123. Avatar BA says:

    We have AMC because lenders constantly pressured/threatened appraisers to do what they, the lenders wanted or needed. This included inflating values so lenders could close loans. IT was the unethical behavior and the lack of concern for public interest on the part of the lenders that brought about a need to remove their unethical behavior from the appraisal process. This was thought to be accomplished by introducing a buffer between the lender and the appraiser …. AMC.
    Now we see a whole new set of bad actors and poor procedures that are not consumer conscious.
    I think anytime we allow anyone with ulterior (self-serving) motives or conflicting interest to interlope in an area that is not their field or knowledge or expertise we open ourselves up to problems. JMO

    Off subject
    Did anyone else watch the House hearings with the oil companies? The top 5 oil and gas companies had a record 237 BILLION IN PROFITS last YEAR. What do you think they will make this year while we are now paying double for gas? When ask if in “the interest of the state of the US economy and in the interest of trying to help with inflation the companies would consider a reduction to their investors in profits”. ALL SAID NO.
    AMCs are doing this and NOW we have a disclosure to show what the appraiser’s actually get paid in the report.

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  124. Avatar BA says:

    DOUG
    It may be of some interest. I had an AMC send me a RURAL assignment of the new Bifurcated Hybrid. HE sent it to me as just a “desktop”. He said “Well you don’t even have to leave your office.” I then questioned him on just what the assignment really was. I told him I was not interested in doing the Hybrids. He said and I quote “I have no luck getting ANY appraiser to except these.” I have had 50 of these in the past 2 weeks and could not get even one assigned” “All of those orders had to be changed over to 1004’s to get them done.” So, we as appraisers are able to have an effect when we simply stay as a strong group all with the same expectations. JMO

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  125. Baggins Baggins says:

    BA, quoting AIR. Interesting. They are impeding our independence, demanding we ignore local municipal guidelines and existing customary market standards. FNMA has used the CU review and probationary tool as an instrument of force to threaten our future business if we do not comply. (Not to mention cutting our industries potential to earn a living in literally half with desktops, as latest FNMA stats indicate half of all orders which previously would have been full fee full service orders will now be run as desktops. Great timing to crush this industry to install this right as mortgage rates climb upward after periods of historical lows. The ‘ANSI partner’ has certainly influenced developmental methods here, absolutely.

    ETHICS RULE. Conduct. / must not advocate the cause or interest of any party or issue; (Obviously FNMA is advocating for ANSI, ignoring many locations existing functional methodologies.)

    BEING COMPETENT An appraiser must determine, prior to agreeing to perform an assignment, that he or she can perform the assignment competently. Competency requires: 3.recognition of, and compliance with, laws and regulations that apply to the appraiser or to the assignment. (There is that annoying guidance that we’re supposed to recognize existing regulations.) Comment: Competency may apply to factors such as, but not limited to, an appraiser’s familiarity with a specific type of property or asset, a market, a geographic area, an intended use, specific laws and regulations (What do I know about my local market anyways? Specific laws and regulations only matter at the federal level, local regulations are not all that important anymore.)

    ACQUIRING COMPETENCY In an assignment where geographic competency is necessary, an appraiser who is not familiar with the relevant market characteristics must acquire an understanding necessary to produce credible assignment results for the specific property type and market involved. (There it is again, geographic competency, being familiar with the relevant market characteristics. Like let’s say, none of the local municipalities use an ANSI standard for their assessment reporting. A market characteristic is in fact, local existing municipal guidelines and standards. )

    SCOPE OF WORK RULE: Comment: Scope of work includes, but is not limited to:•the extent to which the property is identified;•the extent to which tangible property is inspected;•the type and extent of data researched; and•the type and extent of analyses applied to arrive at opinions or conclusions.Appraisers have broad flexibility and significant responsibility in determining the appropriate scope of work for an appraisal or appraisal review assignment. (So much for broad flexibility. Not anymore! Although we can research and learn exactly how the assessors data is presented, we’re no longer able to use that as a reasonable basis for analysis even if we know the assessor is reliable and uses sound methods. Prohibited from using ‘matching units of measurement’ in many locations. This goes to the ‘appraisal method 101’ slander. Purposefully not acknowledging that in places like Adams county, there is no online available source of data to properly parse the garden level away from the rest of the gross living area. You can guess at that garden level size to separate to get closer to matching use of measurement units, or you can disregard the concept of matching units of measurement entirely and start your grid off with misleading falsified indicators of gross differences.)

    SCOPE OF WORK ACCEPTABILITY17 An appraiser must not allow assignment conditions to limit the scope of work to such a degree that the assignment results are not credible in the context of the intended use. Comment: If relevant information is not available because of assignment conditions that limit research opportunities (such as conditions that place limitations on inspection or information gathering), an appraiser must withdraw from the assignment unless the appraiser can:•modify the assignment conditions to expand the scope of work to include gathering the information; or•use an extraordinary assumption about such information, if credible assignment results can still be developed. (Q7. Can appraisers use the exception code to voluntarily opt out of compliance with the ANSI standard?No.) (So much for reasonable limitations on when it is acceptable to use extra ordinary assumptions. So much for modifying assignment conditions to be better reflections of current market standards and more conducive to credible assignment results.) Determining the scope of work is an ongoing process in an assignment. (But for sketching and choosing to recognize the legitimacy or reliability of local municipal standards, the appraiser no longer has control over SOW crafting input.) Information or conditions discovered during the course of an assignment might cause the appraiser to reconsider the scope of work. (Curious, like perhaps identifying the local assessor, the entire realty community, and the MLS system do not use an ANSI standard? Is that not a discovered or learned piece of information that may influence scope of work? We all need more remedial training to understand this concept, and we need to buy more books!)

    JURISDICTIONAL EXCEPTION RULE If any applicable law or regulation precludes compliance with any part of USPAP, only that part of USPAP becomes void for that assignment. Comment: When compliance with USPAP is required by federal law or regulation, no part of USPAP can be voided by a law or regulation of a state or local jurisdiction. / Law includes constitutions, legislative and court-made law, and administrative rules and ordinances. Regulations include rules or orders having legal force, issued by an administrative agency. Instructions from a client or attorney do not establish a jurisdictional exception. (The question of FNMA here and their role comes into play. Is the FNMA instruction adequate to establish a jurisdictional exception on thsi matter? Administrative rules and ordinances? Like the specific building codes and municipal guidelines in that counties jurisdiction for recognizing building space? Those municipalities having long since adopted something OTHER THAN the ANSI standard. Just wipe out substantial portions of USPAP with one ANSI FNMA federal regulation.)

    STANDARDS RULE 1-1, GENERAL DEVELOPMENT REQUIREMENTS In developing a real property appraisal, an appraiser must:(a)be aware of, understand, and correctly employ those recognized methods and techniques that are necessary to produce a credible appraisal; (You mean perhaps like taking the time to become geographically competent and actually learn and know your LOCAL MUNICIPALITIES ordinances and guidelines for recognizing and defining residential building space? That’s a really convenient and sensible approach. No assumptions or extra ordinary assumptions needed.)

    Comment: This Standards Rule recognizes that the principle of change continues to affect the manner in which appraisers perform appraisal services. Changes and developments in the real estate field have a substantial impact on the appraisal profession. Important changes in the cost and manner of constructing and marketing commercial, industrial, and residential real estate as well as changes in the legal framework in which real property rights and interests are created, conveyed, and mortgaged have resulted in corresponding changes in appraisal theory and practice. Social change has also had an effect on appraisal theory and practice. To keep abreast of these changes and developments, the appraisal profession is constantly reviewing and revising appraisal methods and techniques and devising new methods and techniques to meet new circumstances. For this reason, it is not sufficient for appraisers to simply maintain the skills and the knowledge they possess. when they become appraisers. Each appraiser must continuously improve his or her skills to remain proficient in real property appraisal. (Continually improve our skills? Like becoming aware of local municipal guidelines and not just lazily falling back on ANSI one size fits all because, well, it’s what they have been doing already for so long?)

    b)not commit a substantial error of omission or commission that significantly affects an appraisal; and Comment: An appraiser must use sufficient care to avoid errors that would significantly affect his or her opinions and conclusions. Diligence is required to identify and analyze the factors, conditions, data, and other information that would have a significant effect on the credibility of the assignment results / (Curious again, like perhaps providing false misleading net/gross figures based on purposefully manipulated data because one is applying adjustments which have 0% net influence but drive gross adjustments 30%+ or more, although those adjustments DO NOT REFLECT ANY market reaction? aka; ANSI applies to your subject but not your comps. Nothing misleading about starting off with a very high gross adjustment indicator, that’s normal when one is utilizing matching units of measurement right? Some people would call that putting your thumb on the scale. Adjust it out, adjust it back in on another line. Drive your gross indicator of dissimilarity up on a technicality. Disregard the fact the net/gross indicators are considered by many to be the absolutely most important numerical figures in the entire valuation analysis report. Some would call that incompetent analysis.)

    (e)identify, from sources the appraiser reasonably believes to be reliable, the characteristics of the property that are relevant to the type and definition of value and intended use of the appraisal,22including: (i)its location and physical, legal, and economic characteristics; (Oh no, losing ground again. Due to the ANSI rule coming from the federal level and precluding USPAP guidelines, we just lost another one. We are no longer able to rely on the reasonable and consistently reliable assessors reporting. We no longer can rely on their municipal guidelines regarding definition and recognition of space. We can not follow the local standards to prove geographical competency and instead, like pioneers of old, we must blaze our own trail.)

    Comment on (i)–(v): An appraiser may use any combination of a property inspection, documents, such as a legal description, address, map reference, copy of a survey or map, property sketch, photographs, or other information to identify the relevant characteristics of the subject property. When appraising proposed improvements, an appraiser must examine and have available for future examination, plans, specifications, or other documentation sufficient to identify the extent and character of the proposed improvements.23 (But as several here have said, those lazy cheating appraisers complying with Standards Rule 1-2 (e) (i), utilizing reliable local assessors material. They’re simply doing it wrong. They should comply with ANSI instead! I checked the 2020 digital copy USPSP and did not find one reference to ANSI, not one. Never mind the ANSI ‘guidelines’ are overly flexible, always changing, formed by a pathetically small work group whom does not have prerequisite experience in the majority of jurisdictions their rule effects professional appraiser practice. The ANSI advisory group for residential measurement standards also summarily ignored the vast majority of volunteer appraiser consultants suggestions when forming this ANSI rule for residential appraisal. ANSI is not a commonly accepted practice in the real property services industry at large, which is why in some locations only a rare appraiser and assessor choses to utilize the ANSI approach. Let’s also ignore that the ANSI group defines a different standard for residential in commercial buildings, recognizing ‘ground floor’ as being acceptable to be below grade, just as long as it’s not more than 4 ft below grade. Boy that sounds a lot like the existing perimeter based standard that assessors whom do not use this new residential ANSI standard have already long since adhered to.)

    STANDARDS RULE 1-3, MARKET ANALYSIS, AND HIGHEST AND BEST USE When necessary for credible assignment results in developing a market value opinion, an appraiser must: (a)identify and analyze the effect on use and value of: (v)market area trends; and Comment: An appraiser must avoid making an unsupported assumption or premise about market area trends, effective age, and remaining life. (Isn’t the municipal standard for recognizing how a local municipality defines gross living area, that drives all assessment reporting, taxable basis, and all realty agent reporting, isn’t that a ‘market trend’? I’d better go back to appraisal 101 and figure this out.)

    STANDARDS RULE 1-4, APPROACHES TO VALUE In developing a real property appraisal, an appraiser must collect, verify, and analyze all information necessary for credible assignment results.(a)When a sales comparison approach is necessary for credible assignment results, an appraiser must analyze such comparable sales data as are available to indicate a value conclusion. (Oh here it is again, ANSI for the subject but not for the comps… Sort of difficult to reconcile under many scenarios the ANSI group did not even bother to consider. Now to be fair this plays both directions because in some locations the assessment data can not be deemed credible, but in other areas, existing assessment data which drives the basis for all realty and mls reporting is indeed credible, reliable, and has been carefully checked and double checked over generations as the assessors are apparently responsible stewards of this data.)

    STANDARDS RULE 1-5, SALE AGREEMENTS, OPTIONS, LISTINGS, AND PRIOR SALES When the value opinion to be developed is market value, an appraiser must, if such information is available to the appraiser in the normal course of business:27(a) analyze all agreements of sale, options, and listings of the subject property current as of the effective date of the appraisal; and (Yeah, I keep analyzing those sales, verifying their stated data points with a second verification source at the assessor. It’s just nobody will be able to do that with my subject’s newly coined stated ‘ANSI compliant size.’ Matching units of measurement is such an antiquated theory. Who needs second verification sources anyways?)

    The purpose of the Uniform Standards of Professional Appraisal Practice(USPAP) is to promote and maintain a high level of public trust in appraisal practice by establishing requirements for appraisers. It is essential that appraisers develop and communicate their analyses, opinions, and conclusions to intended users of their services in a manner that is meaningful and not misleading. (Because there is nothing misleading about adopting a different unit of measurement than which is applied by the local municipal legal and realty community. The words are meaningful. Which is more meaningful, matching units of measurement or mismatching units of measurement? The bi vs tri, the 2 vs bi, the tri w/ above grade vs tri with garden level, all jumbled up now. I want to go back 30 years and figure out who put garden level and basement in the same co mingled line on these forms. Just because these two items share the same line does not mean they are categorically the same space. Garden level is not the same as a basement. Again, ‘industry standards’ matter. FNMA is just one portion of the real property industry, they do not define what real property is but rather are merely tasked with bundling loans for better more secure access for Americans. As soon as everyone else adopts ANSI, it will be no big deal for appraisers to as well. Otherwise we’re on a different page with a different unit of measurement which is not going to provide clarity to anyone other than FNMA. Fannie could have simply provided clear and straight forward guidance; count the stairs, do not count foyers, do not count unheated additions which are not built to a similar standard as the majority of the real property structure itself, adhere to the local municipal standards to demonstrate your geographical competency and satisfy the Competency Rule.)

    Being that we’re all qualified topographical surveyors now… That got me thinking, what specific definitions does a topographical land surveyor utilize? If we are to be literal for ‘earth level’, let’s turn to the very specialty these supposedly well crafted rules rely on.

    https://learncst.com/grade-definitions/ Ignore gradient factors and only focus on grade and slope in a literal way. https://learncst.com/slope-definitions/ Gentle sloping, it’s too much for ANSI to handle. Who needs or appreciates qualifications and flexibilities regarding mild inclination of the slope? Either there is the presence of slope or the absence of slope. That’s flat lander thinking right there. Let’s treat suburbia grass areas like talus skree slope. Here is a good one: PHOTOCLINOMETRY – Determination of slopes from study of brightness in one photographic image. Welcome to the wonderful world of land surveying and defining slope. Act like in regular city suburbia with some hills we’re dealing with supplemental contours rather than basic contour. Didn’t you know, all those split levels are practically built on terraces. Never mind that some of the grade in split levels occurred due to the cut as excavators moved some earth and left some of the fill on site. / Actually not much there, disappointing. I gave it the good old boys network try at least. Control +F for pdf search. I just looked for grade and slope.
    https://www.blm.gov/sites/default/files/cadastralglossary.pdf

    Someone should put forth a survey with quality controls so people can not take it twice, and we should get a better handle on the appraisal communities over all welcoming or unwelcoming nature of this ANSI hardline mandate. The data should be able to be parsed on a state by state basis. One of the things we have all learned here, weather some care to admit it or not, is that in some states the ANSI rule is well received and is likely to bring about a more cohesive understanding of what is livable space, prevent some ongoing realty fraud which apparently some individual states have so far been incapable of reigning in. While in other states the ANSI rule is not generally well received, because the specific blanket one size fits all approach runs contrary to local market standards and administrative guidelines some municipalities have already put forth and codified into building and legal standards.

    Someone mentioned my colorful short story as ‘a great american novel’. Hey, I don’t deserve that much credit, but thank you anyways. Pennywise for ANSI! The more basements the better. Basements basements everywhere, as far as the eye can see.

    https://www.fanniemae.com/about-us/corporate-governance/fannie-mae-charter
    What exactly does a measurement standard have to do with providing liquidity to the mortgage market?
    https://www.fanniemae.com/about-us/corporate-governance/board-committee-charters
    Obviously point the finger at the strategic initiatives and technology committee on this one.
    https://www.fanniemae.com/media/28816/display
    5.Outside advisors. Subject to the Conservator’s approval, the Committee shall have the authority to retain and terminate such outside counsel as it determines appropriate to assist it in the full performance of its functions. The Committee shall also have sole authority to retain and terminate such other experts and advisors as it deems appropriate to assist it in the full performance of its functions and approve any such experts’ or advisors’ fees and other retention terms. The Company shall provide for appropriate funding, as determined by the Committee, for payment of compensation to any advisor retained by the Committee. (Except in the case of ANSI standards, appraisers will need to pay for those as they are not incorporated into the selling guide, yet are now a non negotiable integrated part of the selling guide.)

    Some appraisers are head over heels in support of this. We get that. If we operated in your locations we probably would want some corrections too. However, rather than using the force of government to effect people whom do no wrong and do no harm, we would have taken a more fairly balanced localized approach such as getting peoples licenses yanked or demanding the assessors do a better job or provide more detailed local municipal building code guidelines so people could not skirt their accurate reporting duties. We’ve long since accomplished most of those goals here in Colorado. We have a uniform standard in place right now. Because of that standard already existing, categorical assumptions that ANSI will bring such as ‘the average home owner can get the most consistent results’ is simply not true. The average home owner currently enjoys consistent results from everyone in the process. Or at least they used too. Now this imposition will result in a similar issue others face elsewhere, the appraiser can’t seem to get on the same page as everyone else and there will be a lot of confusion about who is right who is wrong, what the local municipal standard is, and why that municipal standard was no longer applicable, and why those municipal standards remain applicable to everyone in the process except the appraiser working with FNMA. The notion that you can disclose disclaim your way out of something like this with ANSI declarations is another fallacy, word smithing without merit. Legally that concept may be true. We’re dealing with real people, real homes, real substantial effort to bring and receive from market. People in our industries have already put in a substantial amount of time verifying existing sizing data. There has been comprehensive checks and balances in place for a long time which already include building departments, inspectors, blueprints, defined guidelines codified into municipal documents set forth by qualified managers and county authorities, re assessment, independent assessment, constant scrutiny whenever properties turn over, etc, etc. And the appraiser will show up with a different unit of measurement and different unit of comparison… Why? It’s kind of selfish to impose something on an entire group just because it works better for you personally.

    independence noun
    in·?de·?pen·?dence | ?in-d?-?pen-d?n(t)s
    Definition of independence
    1 : the quality or state of being independent
    Synonyms & Antonyms for independence
    Synonyms
    self-dependence, self-reliance, self-subsistence, self-sufficiency, self-support
    Antonyms
    dependence (also dependance), reliance
    What does independence mean to you?

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    • Avatar BA says:

      Baggins. Thank you I think we ALL need to remember our roots and the things we are supposed to be considering. The Appraisal Gospel does not come from any lender and the REAL power over us as appraisers is not any AMC, lender or GSE. The one that can take a license and a career not just an assignment or a client is the true POWER we should aim to please. FNAM cannot remove our power to earn a living as Appraisers only we can. Our actions can cause a revocation of our licenses. WE MST REMEMBER we can survive as appraisers without FNMA but until the FEDS change the laws and Truth in Lending Act (TILA), Regulation Z, FIRREA, or the Uniform Standards of Professional Appraisal Practice (USPAP).” ALL go away… FNMA CAN NOT survive without appraisers. WE still have the power and control over ourselves. It is the story we tell ourselves and each other that gives these GSE’s the power over us.
      I do not have to risk my license to work for FNMA and neither does any other appraiser.

      Sidenote while I really appreciate all of your effort in finding and sharing all of the GREAT things you bring to the table here. I hope the next suggestion is not offensive because I absolutely do not intend to be,…Maybe you and I and the others can post links instead of the articles. That way it is a person’s choice if they wish to read them or not, I think we loose many good participants here when we get too much content in our posts. JMO I myself should have considered this option a few times….and I do apologize to those here that I did not consider when I did this….Just saying

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      • Baggins Baggins says:

        This may have been the longest running blog this site ever dealt with, not sure. It challenged the existing format and patience of many readers. I’m going to have fun saying; don’t miss the follow up on this one and redirecting here now and then in the future. You know, each thread forms a life of it’s own depending on who’s participating and how much banter there may be. There is no posting limit or content limit, and that’s just a condition of this particular format, one I appreciate at least. If they need social networking for one liners they can go to twitter.

        I get this concept, moving away from FNMA. And it’s what many a pro appraiser whom won’t abide amc or gse meddling has done before. The FNMA white paper on the question of amc sourcing eroding appraisal quality results in the CU system provided some indirect data we could infer from. It appears half of all licensed appraisers in the USA no longer complete GSE work, post amc era. While it appeared a substantially larger body of appraisers completed GSE work pre amc era. From the appraisers still participating, data glean indicates roughly one in four appraisers is willing to work with amc’s, the rest are not. But I just can’t bring myself to go to amc’s for the lions share, nor to step away from GSE work. I got into this industry to help the little guy, as at that time, that was me. I learned to navigate lending, bought a home, have that thing damned near paid off, and now as the shoe is on the other foot I lose sleep over liability and excess responsibility for such menial pay for the redundant task. And as new events transpire and I see ibuyer corporate entities sweeping up opportunity and wealth for themselves, falling home ownership rates, international tycoons and data brokers seeking to alter these systems for their benefit rather than the American consumer, a consistent stream of false accusations at appraisers like housing worth inequality is our fault for being racist, and a steady stream of informational and language control in an apparent technical systems take over of American housing systems, I remain concerned for our sovereign future.

        If people like us can’t be there for regular American consumers, who will take our place? If it’s last man standing so be it. Although as the ANSI mandate alongside third party inspectors, lidar based 3d image scanning who’s data will be sent to unaccountable tech brokers, avm integration, desktop allowances, the pending utilization of the FNMA CU database to replace appraisers entirely indicates, standardized measurements which will benefit the largest of corporations, the war has already been lost and we’re just sweeping up some localized battles before it’s over. For appraisers who think absence from GSE participation insulates them; think again. When the GSE appraisers fall, you’ll be next in line.

        “Until the feds change the law.” One of my goals is to constantly reiterate that the principals that founded this country and which led to our prosperity are worth fighting for and adhering to. “We The People.” I will help others achieve the same to the best of my ability as I find the opportunity to do so. Or maybe the appraisal position is just a job and employment. To me it was a lot more than just a job, appraisal brought me many rich experiences with people whom I provided service for, freedom of time, a break from the mundane, and many worthy personal experiences which could only happen with personal visits to so many peoples homes. They’re taking that away so the basis of why I accepted this position is crumbling away. It’s really sad, how unfair FNMA is on these matters. FNMA has consistently refused to advocate for appraisers for a very long time now. It appears that FNMA considers each and every action which causes fewer appraisers to participate in GSE systems to be a win. Otherwise it’s hard to ponder the motivation, unless there is such extreme incompetency we can not comprehend how far it has spread already. I’m not going to stop.

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  126. Avatar BA says:

    Baggins ,
    Well said although I am the eternal optimist who believes anything is possible if we don’t let people convince us otherwise. I really like the Jamie Ownen Snip .Thank you
    Here’s a few links you may find interesting
    http://blog.appraisalinstitute.org/technology-can-aid-not-replace-appraisers/

    This one sort of crazy with the current communication IMO
    http://blog.appraisalinstitute.org/ai-fannie-mae-join-forces-to-promote-diversity-in-valuation-profession/

    How about Birmingham what’s happening there… Sort of interesting to look at all the different areas and other markets.
    This is sort of an example of what you were trying to explain for CO and the market there. Read the comments from that area.
    https://birminghamappraisalblog.com/in-the-news/what-the-new-ansi-standard-requirement-means-for-appraisers-and-agents/

    If I was not told you are living in CO I would know by the way you communicate.
    All good …

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  127. Avatar BA says:

    The last Class I took for CE was a good class. The instructor had a list of things that lenders ask for that he very politely declines to give them as they increase liability for the appraiser.
    I wished I had copied the link he gave. I will seek and try and come up with it. In the meantime here are his words on reconsideration of value.

    “We must start by enforcing and reminding the requestor to submit these reconsiderations properly in terms of FMNA Guidelines and even the VA Tidewater guidelines. (Click Here to read the VA’s Guidelines.) It shouldn’t be as simple as sending over three to six comparable sales and forcing the appraiser to explain why he/she omitted these sales in the initial report. There are procedures set in place that most appraisers do not even know exist; they simply go along with the lender request to satisfy the needs of the client. The requestor must follow these rules:
    • No more than three sales.
    • The requestor must explain why these sales are more applicable than the ones in the report and they must include a grid.
    • They must attach supported documentation/verification such as MLS sheets, maps and tax record”

    “I have received several reconsideration requests in the past with only one having an attached grid because most requestors neglect attaching the supporting documents. It almost seems too easy for them to do a quick search or use CU and send over these requests just so they cover their risk. As a result, the appraiser spends valuable time answering pointless requests from the client while the sales are not even pertinent to the appraisal.”

    “Appraisers must start to enforce Fannie Mae’s CU procedures before completing an absurd reconsideration of value. In addition, the appraiser should be compensated for his/her time. Appraisers should start to set a fee for each comparable sale requested in the reconsideration because time is money. If the appraiser overlooks a relevant sale that impacts the opinion of value, the appraiser should waive the fee. If appraisers make it a business practice to enforce this procedure, lenders would rethink frivolous reconsiderations of value and over time, appraisers would see a reduction of this type of revision from the clients”

    He has comments he uses for requests for just about everything, cost to cure, lead paint & other FHA repairs as well as code and no conforming use requests. ALL things he refuses to address for lenders. He feels Like Doug does and states he is an appraiser not a Jack of all trades basically.

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      I do not deal with rov’s. Only dealt with that a handful of times. Because I provide detailed market research within the report, and as our sizing and assessment data is already reliable in it’s current form, it is obvious that I’ve put in the homework and provided apples to apples comparison. First you hone in on your target group of similar size and type, then you select the best comps pertaining to your subject. Easy.

      Or it used to be until some nimwit at FNMA demanded we materially misrepresent the subject contrary to what our local municipal authorities prescribe and contrary to existing professional standards. I’ll certainly get one when readers become confused about this silly FNMA ANSI standard which nobody else around here uses.

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    • Avatar Chris says:

      As far as the reconsideration of value goes, that has always, at least for me, been in the LOE so, thats where it is either agreed on or not. arguing after accepting the clients terms is pointless.

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      • Avatar don says:

        Ain’t no body perfect. We are only technichens working with with imperfect judgement and other stuff. Ain’t like we are professionals and can stay in the left lane on the freeway. I’ll move over with you.

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  128. Baggins Baggins says:

    So I just had to buy the book… Here are the terms and conditions. Brilliant. Scope creep indeed. I’m not supposed to rely on any of this, everything is subject to immediate change, it’s my responsibility to read through this entire site to identify such, there are no guarantees of accuracy, and I should consult a local professional… Who am I? The sales page says; This voluntary standard… The nerve. Add false advertising to the list.

    https://www.homeinnovation.com/terms_of_use

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  129. Avatar Brian says:

    If the 2nd floor is over 7ft for over 50% & it is a 1.5 story house, do you measure the exterior as a 1.5 or measure interior deducting areas under 5 ft?

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      • Avatar Brian says:

        Do I take the foundation x 1.5 or do I have to measure interior & deduct areas under 5ft?

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        • Avatar chris says:

          Measure the 2nd floor interior, when you don’t have 5′ of height, that is where your floor pan stops. You have to have at least 5′ of floor to ceiling height.

          The 1st floor you measure the outside perimeter of the house.

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        • Avatar chris says:

          I use my shoulder height as a guide…it’s 5′ so its easier, when my shoulder hits the sloped ceiling that’s when I look at the tape measure

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    • Avatar Chris says:

      Two things, and I am not trying to be mean about this, what have you been doing up to this point? Can the average person actually live in a house with 5 foot ceilings? I really dont get the confusion since all of these houses have been in existence for quite some time now and are nothing new. My opinion, There are no 1.5 story houses, if it has a second floor it is a 2 story no matter what the difference in size is between the 2 floors

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      • Avatar chris says:

        Chris…don’t confuse 2nd floors as being 100% livable, that’s where 1.5 stories comes in..or 1.75 or even 1.25. just divide the total by the upper floor and you will get the number….you don’t have to go crazy with exact decimals…

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        • Avatar Chris says:

          I dont call them .5 or .75, to me they are a second floor no matter the total size so I say 2 story

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          • Baggins Baggins says:

            This ANSI thing is really off to a great start!

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            • Avatar Chris says:

              Start? I have been using it since 1995.

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            • Avatar chris says:

              Baggins….start ? I have been using it since 1992 ! And the people who taught me 10+ years before that.

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              • Baggins Baggins says:

                Nothing says professionalism like ignoring local municipal guidelines.

                STANDARDS RULE 1-1, GENERAL DEVELOPMENT REQUIREMENTS In developing a real property appraisal, an appraiser must:(a)be aware of, understand, and correctly employ those recognized methods and techniques that are necessary to produce a credible appraisal; (You mean perhaps like taking the time to become geographically competent and actually learn and know your LOCAL MUNICIPALITIES ordinances and guidelines for recognizing and defining residential building space? That’s a really convenient and sensible approach. No assumptions or extra ordinary assumptions needed.)

                Comment: This Standards Rule recognizes that the principle of change continues to affect the manner in which appraisers perform appraisal services. Changes and developments in the real estate field have a substantial impact on the appraisal profession. Important changes in the cost and manner of constructing and marketing commercial, industrial, and residential real estate as well as changes in the legal framework in which real property rights and interests are created, conveyed, and mortgaged have resulted in corresponding changes in appraisal theory and practice. Social change has also had an effect on appraisal theory and practice. To keep abreast of these changes and developments, the appraisal profession is constantly reviewing and revising appraisal methods and techniques and devising new methods and techniques to meet new circumstances. For this reason, it is not sufficient for appraisers to simply maintain the skills and the knowledge they possess. when they become appraisers. Each appraiser must continuously improve his or her skills to remain proficient in real property appraisal. (Continually improve our skills? Like becoming aware of local municipal guidelines and not just lazily falling back on ANSI one size fits all because, well, it’s what they have been doing already for so long?)

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                • Avatar chris says:

                  Baggins….”Each appraiser must continuously improve his or her skills to remain proficient in real property appraisal.”

                  Like updating measuring to a national standard ? Sorry bud, just breaking you stones….LOL.

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                  • Avatar Doug Kues says:

                    Each appraiser must continuously improve their skills to remain proficient in real property appraisal. Agreed, if the following holds true:

                    “Proficient” means being competent or skilled in doing or using something, and “Perfection” means the condition, state, or quality of being free or as free as possible from all flaws or defects.

                    Then, pass on the ANSI standards requiring accuracy within 1/10th of a foot per measurement and within 1 square foot overall, on a home with, say, seven corners. If your final exterior measurement closes the perimeter exactly, and if your precise final measurement matches ANY other source, I’d say you really know your stuff about ANSI standards. Otherwise, you can still be proficient. Actually, hell, we can ALL stay proficient without trying to be perfect, and if we can still estimate value within less than 5 percentage points without knowing the exact square footage…. then we remain a VERY proficient appraiser indeed. The factor we can never, ever, overlook is the ever present “market reaction” which is the prerequisite to any and all acceptable market supported adjustments. If your ANSI measurements are perfect and your market reaction factor is off, then your margin of error is far greater than the impact of being off by more than 1 square foot on your measurements. Honestly, if you are off in your measurements by even 300 square feet and your final opinion of value remains accurate overall, then you have performed what you were retained to perform and provided the service you were retained to perform. If you have provided perfect measurements, precise drawings, made your final opinion subject to double strapping on the water heater, and your opinion of value is off by $20,000, then you have performed only for those trying to gather property data, not those hiring you that need reliable indications of market value to support their decision. Not one of your clients really cares about the exact size of improvements…. they care about what happens if their borrower doesn’t pay. The reason we provide detail in the report is probably more akin to informing the borrower, especially if they are a purchaser, so that there can be no repercussions like “Geez, the appraiser was off and short by 50 square feet and I would never have paid that kind of price if I had known that”. And, of course, we never hear things like….”Geez, I sure would have been willing to pay more if I had known the appraiser was short by 50 feet”…… do we?

                    A gentle blend of efficiency and reasonable accuracy will support the job you were retained to perform. Beyond that, just throw in the old swimming pool and tell my why you use $20k, $50k, or $75k as an adjustment for such an amenity when you can’t see or judge the “comparable” pool and it could be anything from an undersized 25 year old drop in fiberglass unit with discoloring, undersized, unheated, and leaks…… to a recently installed black bottom solar heated Olympic sized infinity pool, or anything in between. Pool adjustments alone thus become way more critical to value than being off a few feet in, say, a 2500 square foot SFR dwelling. Promised myself to stay out of this arena for a while, but there are moments………

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          • Avatar chris says:

            Chris…it is not about counting levels, but to each his own. But one could argue…1.25 is not the same as 1.75, even with similar GLA’s…think about it when you make your design adjustments. Just saying…..

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            • Avatar don says:

              Half a foot didn’t mean much in 1938 when everything else was such a gross guess. lending had greater emphases on the Borrower and the banker than in the security. We tech’s make it more important because we are not as important if we don’t! Worriers should worry, thank God we are not responsible for college loans. Imagine, loaning the ignorant to become intelligent

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              • Avatar Doug Kues says:

                2.00% close enough for accuracy?

                OK, I know it isn’t 1938, but say we have a $1,000,000 home that is 3,000 square feet. Site and site improvements is valued at, say, $400,000. Leaves $600,000 for the home, which is the only structure on the property. I appraise this home and measurements are off by one hundred (100) feet more or less. At a $600,000 allocation for improvements that’s about $200 p/sf for the home. Say I am off 100 feet short in measurement with a hypothetical impact of $20,000. On the million dollar home, that equates to about 2%. Not perfect, but certainly proficient. These scenarios being fairly consistent, where did we support the square footage adjustment with market reaction, and can we provide any assurance that such market reaction is within 2% of reliable every time? And, certainly not least, can we provide any assurance whatsoever that such an adjustment is even reasonable when we cannot confirm or verify the comparable square footage or even how it was determined?

                OK, Borrower defaults and your report comes out of the file for the first time several years later. Any argument we may have that….. “well, the house was measured to ANSI standards”…. will likely not result in a favorable decision from your client, the lender. Let me suggest that there are many, many, oversights and irregularities that could result in a market of error greater than being off by 100 square feet in measurement, and we are only being allowed one (1) foot by the latest standard.

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                • Avatar Chris says:

                  Seriously? Off by 100 sf or more? I have never been “off” by that much without being able to figure it out. Since I have been using a surface and Disto which sends the measurements directly to Apex, I have had Zero measurement mistakes. SO I know before I even think about leaving if something is wrong with my sketch. Even if nothing is wrong and I am “Off” by that much I spend the time needed to determine why and if I make no changes and I am correct I disclose this in the report. Besides, the lenders now require comments as to why the GLA in the report does not match public records. If you are off by 100 sf or more, you, the appraiser, probably messed up.

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                  • Avatar Chris says:

                    Chris….Well said.. They haven’t been measuring…. It’s that simple. They have been using the assessors figures and sketches their entire careers. They don’t know how to measure a house, that is what has them so freaking out.

                    Which is why they are moving to the standard.

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                    • Baggins Baggins says:

                      Thank you for the pro mandate slander and false accusations.

                      One primary purpose of measuring is to determine if the assessors recorded record on home size is generally accurate or not.

                      And despite providing appraisal services in counties which do not furnish sketches online, we’ve just been using assessor sketches.

                      You know what, something is on display for everyone to see…

                      You are a good ANSI special interest advocate, that’s for sure.

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                  • Avatar Doug Kues says:

                    Chris – you missed the point. I have never been off by 100 square feet, and if you have relied on disto as being 100% accurate, you probably messed up as well. My entire point is that exact measurements are not that critical to VALUE or MARKETABILITY…. proven by the fact that even if (in the example I gave) the appraiser IS off by 100 feet the impact on value is less than 2% overall, and any number of things besides measurements can skew a value more than that. My point is that precise measurement means nothing to the lender client unless their sole desire is to gather data for some reason other than value. It is really quite simple.

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                    • Avatar Chris says:

                      You have never been off by 100 sf? I have been “Off” by more than that. The difference is, as I have been saying, I can point to where and why there is such a difference and am 100% confident that my sketch is accurate and have had no problems explaining it in the reports. You also must never have used a Disto to assume my measurements would be off. I am guessing you are thinking I shoot on an angle that makes the distance incorrect which would be 100% incorrect as well. They state its accuracy is ± 1.0 mm / 0.04 in. I regularly verify the accuracy of mine probably once a week or two. As you said this I got out the oldest Disto I have that I got at least 18 years ago and it is still accurate at 5′, 20′, 30′ 1/2″, 50′ and 100′. So no, I am positive my measurements are the same on any sketch I have ever done with a disto if I was to go back to any older report I have done. Exact measurements are critical in being professional. When anyone that is of an age that can read a tape measure, or even just hold it up and have someone else read it, can prove the measurements on your sketch are not the same as the actual measurement on the house in question, that “appraiser” sure does appear to be any but professional. If you cant trust he or she cant measure a 10′ 3 1/2″ wall correctly how could he or she be trusted to get the value right? As an appraiser being as precise as I possibly can on anything in the report I provide is important no matter how small a part it plays in the overall report. You want a home inspector to look at a house your going to buy and say ” yea, it looks like the roof and mechanicals may last a while. They look good to you right?”. If any evil corporation wants to “gather data” they only have as far as the assessor and building departments to go to.

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                • Baggins Baggins says:

                  ANSI is a clear example of systemic deficiency in appraisal training and ongoing education. In their inability to understand local market factors, they lazily turn to a universal standard which only this specific industry is trying to adopt, and all others refuse to adopt. Outright ignoring long standing associated recognition factors such as grading slope cuts fills water tables market standards the concept of ground level with associated slope. It takes a real lunatic to call something falsely in a language counter intuitive to everyone else. Reminds me of the progressive take over of public schools we’re facing right now. If your smart you’re gifted, but if you’re severely disabled, you’re twice gifted. There are no more letter grades. True story. In appraisal if you’re competent to local standards you’re now deficient, but if you don’t have a clue what local standards are and use a metric nobody else uses, you’re competent. Make it make sense.

                  If competency to these people is ignoring market standards, jurisdictional guidelines on housing, confusing people whom read reports, failing to provide additional verification sources, cleverly crafting out slight oversized measurements for the subject but not the comps to boost value opinions, etc, etc. No wonder this industry is in so much trouble. Then like children they stamp their foot in the dirt and say because we said so and we’re doing it right all this time not you! More violations of basic ethical principals and competency standards.

                  Pepsi challenge. Post your local counties municipal building guidelines to prove to us these are commonly recognized standards in your areas. If not, you’ve accomplished nothing in a counter productive effort to change the entire housing industry from the sideline position of an appraiser. It’s time to face facts; the appraisal industry does not have the clout or representation to change a damned thing, we’re struggling just to survive in the face of mounting pressures.

                  This is what my senior appraiser friend told me on this matter; They intend to eliminate appraisers from mortgage lending and that’s just the way it is. We can find success on the back end with litigation and private requests from people whom actually care about market values and actually have something to lose. FNMA people have absolutely nothing to lose, why would they care about these ethical principals? Obvious is obvious, ansi appears to be a setup to drive special interests in and independent checks and balances out.

                  Be careful what you wish for with any universal standard. That ‘red tape’ of bureaucratic navigation on the local level is of tremendous benefit to local jurisdictions and controlling their own cities towns and counties. These people would have a universal building code across this entire country where locals are no longer in control of their own systems of building code and space recognition.

                  Let’s start placing bets on how long before this pathetically small ANSI workgroup which lacks cohesive well rounded national experience issues an updated book, for sale of course. If you want to affect these standards guess what; you’re now an unpaid volunteer. See how that works.

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  130. Avatar BA says:

    To some people appraising is mathematic competency and nothing more.

    Liner regression and all that old blah, blah, blah that we don’t need in the residential market anymore (unless in extremely remote areas with no sales within 50 miles.) Now we have MARKET DATA, comparable properties, MLS, internet, online public records access, appraisal software, lasers, digital cameras and so much more. There are no more narrative reports like the ones of the past. Reports were less than 5 pages with 3 subject photos. No more unsubstantiated adjustments because now we have evolved…RIGHT?

    Now we base our opinions on readily available data and anything not available… we GUESS AT!!

    Funny the more technically advanced we get the further backward we go!

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  131. Avatar BA says:

    Question…In this requirement it seems the question for FNMA or anyone for that matter, is “Does uniformity equal accuracy or does uniformity just equal uniformity?” and ….Does that matter?

    FNMA has made the statement that GLA or price per sq foot is an (if not the most important per FNMA) issue for buyers and sellers…. the MARKET. There have been added comments that consumers want accurate PP SF figures and ANSI is an attempt to provide this…. PER FNMA

    The direction to round measurements, the possible addition of new added materials on an exterior wall changing the measurements and therefore the accuracy of GLA . What about lack of being able to have flat surfaces free of shrubs and obstructions to achieve accurate exterior measurements. All of this seems to suggest that accuracy is not all that achievable. Add the lack of complete and mutual understanding on the application of ANSI among professionals and it seems accuracy gets less likely. Finally, FNMA direction to treat comps as ANSI measured without inspection…. how can this be more reliable to achieve accuracy? We see that there are already great degrees of difference in how this is being interpreted and applied. So, is FNMA striving for more accurate information for consumers or is the requirement to achieve more uniformity for ease of collecting data? I think the answer is pretty clear but I certainly could be wrong.
    I think maybe these 2 things are not cohesive. Just a thought

    SIDE NOTE… MLS in my area just released an announcement today stating the MLS is not going to change the way GLA or measurements are reported by agents or/and owners. MLS goes on to state… There is a new rule effecting appraisers as of 4/01 which requires them to use the ANSI standard in appraising. Then a link to the standard and its application is supplied.

    So for now we do have the answer many people were wondering about. Agents WILL NOT be using
    ANSI.

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    • Avatar Chris says:

      Baggins…. Are you still losing your mind over something you cannot do anything about?

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      • Baggins Baggins says:

        Mandates are something we ‘cannot do anything about’, and people whom support independence and resist mandates are ‘losing their minds’.

        Check and check. Anything else?

        Special advocate award for you Chris. Keep waving the red flag.

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        • Avatar Chris says:

          Baggins… I did reviews for 5 years on the most pathetic appraisals, I was paid to do a field review and then I was paid to go into the house and provide the funders of this country not the lenders, the big boys cuz there was still a loan to be had, but they needed an appraisal.

          I am a proponent of the standard, because years I saw appraisers call in 4-ft finished attics as bedrooms to up the value and basically bal to their masters of the lenders.

          Five full years, and every one said at the end, the field review and my appraisal and the appraisers appraisal should be sent to the state government agency for review.

          I saw appraisal reports that the sketch was nowhere near what the house look like cuz they didn’t measure. And they were too dumb to even notice.

          It’s long overdue

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          • Baggins Baggins says:

            Here we go with some more typical socialism thinking. Because someone far away did something wrong, everyone must be held accountable. Don’t blame the person, blame the gun! Er, I meant the sketch method. Sometimes integrity requires doing the right thing. It certainly is a shame you did not do anything about the problem when you had the chance. But rather, disrupt other peoples well run systems by advocating for profit special interests. If there is a problem, force everyone to buy a new product subscription. Equality!

            This shtick was old before it even got started.

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            • Avatar BA says:

              So a bank employee whose job it was to find fault with Appraisals done by independents. I think AIR and Dodd Frank did away with that practice too because it was proven to be FLAWED.

              Any time a person is paid to find errors, mistakes and improper or incorrect information… there will always be a fair amount of error or simply “bad work” discovered.

              I know a person who held that position for a lender who went to prison for falsifying information. The “reviewer” knew that the more “GREAT WORK” they did the more the employer appreciated them. IT was discovered that a lot of the GREAT WORK was simply prejudicial or Biased. A few appraisers turned the QC and the lender into the State along with the rejected appraisals and they all fell down BUT THE APPRAISERS! There have been a lot of bad actors in the loan business and a lot of money made by people with low values. Some may have been appraisers, some LOs, some reviewers, some in other fields of the business. We all know stories and have had experiences.
              AND I am certainly not referring to ANYONE here as I think most of the bad actors back then left the industry years ago when restrictions were tightened.
              JMO

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  132. Avatar BA says:

    Walks like a duck……….. quacks like a duck……..Yep it’s a DUCK!!

    LOL

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  133. Avatar BA says:

    “its not about just a value on a home, the loans need to be sold”….
    As an appraiser I have never concerned myself with the loan being sold….. Not my job and has nothing to do with my job… HMMM whose concern would that be… HMMMM
    I also have never said CONTROL and QUALITY and never heard any appraiser or AMC refer to it as C and Q either HMMM…

    Then there’s this…
    “it Is all because appraisers were cheating to keep making the deals for their clients.”

    I have NEVER heard a single Appraiser make any statement even close to that!!

    Appraisers know it was the “no doc no verification loan” and cheating lender EMPs that caused the issues and CRASH.
    Beyond the AMCs AND AIR… the Dodd Frank set limits on how much a LO or mortgage companies could charge the borrowers. I suppose the Appraisers made the lenders OVER charge borrowers outrageous fees too (10K to 15 k per loan for a 125K mortgage)
    YEP the appraisers did it….LOL

    This thread is filled with things LOs say and things that are more like lending industry EMPs think. A lot of appraisers know better than some of these statements being made…

    No such thing as a 1.5 or 1.75 story??… if it’s got two floors its a 2 story”???…
    I really can not stop laughing.

    and then there’s this…”Can the average person actually live in a house with 5 foot ceilings?”
    OMG… Seriously I really cannot stop laughing…

    and more…
    ANSI “…
    In April, 1996 the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) adopted a standard for measuring single-family residential buildings.
    So before this was made a standard while the AMS was already approved and used and recognized by the Lenders… people were using ANSI when it was not yet perfected and approved for Residential use? Before it was fully developed as an approved method the lenders did not question the GLA reported or the sketches in those reports?

    COME ON NOW let’s not be so Naïve here… does all of this make sense here??? Lenders allowing a little known/ not recognized… not yet fully developed and fully approved method for measuring and reporting to be used with totally different outcomes than the County? No Questions on the COMPS GLA being off of the County reported GLA?? Anyone appraising for the last 20 years (or more) knows the lenders sent revisions for everything not “TYPICAL”

    Finally for those people using ANSI since the 50s or before (LOL) You must know ANSI IS VERY SPECFIC
    “The ANSI standards are not law, only a voluntary guide.”
    “But anyone using these standards must apply them as a whole, and not just pick out the parts they like or agree with ”
    SO THIS STATES YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW THESE INSTUCTIONS FULLY AND COMPLETLY to be ANSI COMPLIANT!! No alterations on 1.5 stories or you are NOT ANSI Complaint!!
    Measure the exterior of the house to the nearest inch or tenth of an inch. Measure from the exterior face of the walls. Include any features that are on the same level as the floor, such as chimneys and bay windows. Do not include the thickness of any corner trim pieces or greenhouse windows that don’t have a corresponding floor level. * Use the 100-foot tape for long wall sections and the 25-foot tape for short sections. If you can’t get close to a wall because of landscaping or other obstacles, use your screwdriver to anchor the 100-foot tape on the ground away from the wall.” VERY SPECFIC… thats good right??

    NOW here’s the part where we all have to ask if we cannot stray from the method even slightly to claim ANSI COMPLIANCE… then how can we measure the comparable for an apples to apples comparison?

    What is the point of measuring this precisely and then just cross your fingers and guess or take a stab at it for COMPARABLE properties in an APPRAISAL for loan purposes????

    ANSI even tells you what tools to use for ANSI measuring. I AM VERY, VERY SURE THAT ANSI being as precise as all of that would never say… well just use your knowledge and experience for the other property measurements. Come on now let’s be realistic and not just reside in LALA LAND! THIS IS NOT ANSI METHODS being applied in a proper and accurate way IT IS FNMA not thinking this through.

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  134. Avatar BA says:

    If FNMA felt this would lead to more accuracy it must be for their files only. Appraisers using this method for more accurate GLA with the results only showing in the appraisal report and never anywhere else will not solve the problem that FNMA claims to have. We will always have to continue to guess at the information for the comparable. These ANSI results will never be available to the General public or to Realtors or to other appraisers for accurate GLA. So where is this going and why?
    If my peers do not have my accurate GLA results than how does this lead to more uniformity for consumers or anyone other than the lenders themselves? just wondering.

    Right now the appraisers can share information on comps that they have used in reports. I don’t even see why that is beneficial. IT’s not the subject info they are sharing just comps that they have not seen or inspected so what is the benefit of that? I opt out!

    I do have a BIG concern that perhaps someone can address logically.

    The last 2 years has had many properties close that did not make the contract value. They appraiser for far less than the sales price. So much so that the FEDS doubled the interest rates to stop the action. The buyers signed clauses that exempted the appraisal contingency in the contract. Now the fact that the buyers brought cash to the table over and above the appraised value IS NOT PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE. No one knows that the property sold for X but appraised for 20k or even 50k LESS than X (the selling price) other than the Lender, the agent the buyer and the Appraiser who did the report. Only the sales amount shows in the records. TO me this is a far greater problem than any we have seen since 2004-2007 . This inflates comparable sale prices thus new sales values with out the information to show that the properties did not appraise for the higher selling price. Now we see a whole new group of “comparable” to be used for appraisals to support unsupportable values.

    Anyone else concerned here or is it just me? Who will be blamed for this one?
    Now taxes will soar with these falsely inflated sales prices as well and that hurts ALL of us.

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      On rising prices yet falling short of value. That is exactly what a cash contribution towards a purchase, over and above the listing price creates, increased value. When one buyer goes up against another buyer, and a bidding war is created, these people cast their vote and chip in the bucket, to establish a new higher valuation point. The out of wallet cash payment affirms that individual sale instance of increased worth from that individual buyers perspective. Bonafide sale. The question of skewed data or an unknowable specific value in use remains.

      Observing these events individually may certainly bring forth valid skepticism. Observing this behavior where buyers are up against a half dozen to multiple dozen competing offers in only several days time, and it becomes the required action to need to provide very large cash incentives and over list offers backed by solid funds, helps to measure the market reaction to increased buyer pressure. After all, the participants set the market. Buyers and sellers set the price.

      Surprisingly, in a sellers market it is often the buyers whom set the value, as they’re the ones competing with each other driving both price and value upward with every instance of over list solid fund addition, and it happens more often than not. Sellers try to get ahead of it with rising prices and the value goes up anyways! I’m seeing 100% cash backed offers with contingency. It’s a lucky strike if anyone gets a deal through without some form of cash over appraisal gap contingency. The cash over is a funding guarantee stop gap, think of it that way, because they are verifiable hard funds in order to be presented that way in a contract. It’s what gets you ahead of the dozen other buyers whom already have a contract on the table.

      The suggestion this overage contribution which moves the valuation needle should be reported as a concession is interesting. However, this request may be somewhat more aligned with a consistent state method of local reporting and a consistent detailed local MLS standards (for all of it’s members, of which appraisers are MLS members and are supposed to abide those local standards ) which defines a larger array of necessary data reporting points and data reporting standards. In order to have a functional MLS, all members are supposed to abide a code of conduct where they operate in a manner all the other member professionals can clearly understand and interpret. In the Denver RE Colorado, whenever we pull up a mid or full MLS data record, we get both the last list price and final sale price. The disclosure is there but such information is inferred not directly stated. Sale – List = Overage. This leaves gray area of was this the deal where they paid cash, or did they merely comp out like riding coat tails of the buyer whom paid cash before them? We’ll never know, and very interesting idea.

      State rules dictate concessions to be something of value to a specific party. But is not a cash over list also something of specific value, a special concession? That money most likely went directly into the sellers pocket. Hard to say because it was also a necessary buyer expenditure to solidify the offer position ahead of other multiple interested buyers. How interesting. If that’s the new economy perhaps we should have more information on this metric, examine if the actual cash influx has sensible relationships to total market increases. Also some guy on the radio said that 80% of all fiat US currency in existence was created in the past 2 years. Is that true? Can’t be true.

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  135. Avatar Chris says:

    So I just saw a house the other day. EASY 2 story , 4 years old ALL 90 degree angles VERY simple. One “odd” section on the second floor over the garage but no big deal. The owners had 3 appraisals so far. Assessor, who also has a sketch, shows 2652 sf. Appraisal 1 was 2612 sf, appraisal 2 was 2657 sf, third appraisal 2812 sf. The assessor, per the sketch they have, missed 2 small areas that adds up to about 20-25 sf that they missed. My measurements came to 2675. That third appraiser must be one of these NEVER ANSI guys that is all confused and scared because he made HUGE mistakes that are nearly impossible to make in basically a square house.

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    • Avatar chrischris says:

      Chris..I did reviews, full interiors, I saw appraisers add to the measurements to “make” the deal all the time.for their masters !

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      • Avatar Chris says:

        I was trying to figure out how they got 2812. I have done this same model with an optional sun room that was just over 2800 sf so maybe the last appraiser just used a sketch form one with a sun room or… If I add in the deck I get close to the 2812 that one guy got. Again, SIMPLE house but proof that probably 1 out of 3 appraisers do not have a clue on how to measure a house. THAT reminds me.. A few years back I did a house and my sketch was WAY off form the last guy that did it. They sent me a copy of that other one. The appraiser was an MAI, the report was dripping with self importance and the sketch…. NOTHING like the actual house. The guy was clueless on how to measure. But, he was an MAI so I guess fact is what he says it is.

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        • Avatar chrischris says:

          Chris…The worse appraisals I ever saw were from commercial appraisers who had NO business touching residential. The mistakes were huge, some thought being located on a major traffic arteries was a positive…because in commercial, being on a busy street is a positive….they never gave any value to amenities or even site size, plus or minus. There were so many issues that the reports had to be re-written, lucky me…lol. The REAL problem in our profession is these commercial guys dominate the appraisal institute and others.

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      • Baggins Baggins says:

        Have to agree with BA here. Spoken like someone whom is not an appraiser.

        Now more slander towards appraisers. You certainly are a dynamic ansi and automation advocate.

        Face it, the jig is up. The tag team shtick is just the cherry on top.

        If you have to engage in identity fraud and misrepresentation to sell your products…

        198.204. …………………….

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        • Avatar chrischris says:

          Baggins…I am losing respect for you my friend….all over a standard of measurement…. Really??? Are you seriously trying to justify your feeble stance by saying Chris and I are not real appraisers?

          But hey…its the cancel culture of the right these days…..Jack Nicholson comes to mind…you cant handle the truth.

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          • Baggins Baggins says:

            You crossed that bridge a long time ago. And how you feel about me, one of those appraisers whom answers his masters, irrelevant.

            Those scenarios… I can’t recall one single time I had access to three different sketches when asked to complete one myself. Anyone else?

            Too bad the appraisers were not relying on bonafide verifiable information sources.

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            • Avatar Chris says:

              The sellers of the house asked me at the end why 3 different appraisers got 3 different size living areas. They told me exactly what the differences were. Maybe you just havent had much experience in the field or possibly the way you conduced yourself they felt asking you such a question would not be answered to their satisfaction. I have had many times when people came back to me asking about why my gla was not the same as other appraisals they had. Since they had copies I was always able to tell them why. Not once was I proven wrong on my sketches. This is so simple a 5 year old can do it, just measure and use that exact measurement.

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            • Avatar Chris says:

              Actually, the sellers did say that they wanted to ask me because they noticed I was taking a bunch of measurements inside the house they never saw the other appraisers do. I explained, and showed them, why I was taking interior measurements. Thats when they asked me about the other 3 appraisers. I was doing my job and it was obvious to them I was taking it seriously and professionally. They wanted a professional answer and they got one along with a very accurate and professional sketch.

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            • Avatar chrischris says:

              ***This comment was deleted by AppraisersBlogs Team because it violated our TOU and is inappropriate within the context of this blog.***

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          • Avatar Chris says:

            This is all over people getting upset that they have to actually measure a house and use the ACTUAL measurements. Imagine you buy a new house, to be built, you agree on the exact house and plans but the contractors went by the sizes they felt was easier to build no matter what the plans called for. I guess they would have no problem with that. whats 200, 300 or 400 sq ft difference anyway. You paid for “A house” you got “a house” who cares what size it was supposed to be. You now have a 19 foot deep and 18 foot wide garage to fit 3 cars in. Its ok measurements can be rounded, things are easier that way.

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        • Avatar Chris says:

          What would someone who is not an appraiser be doing in this “trending” forum? If you are not an appraiser why are you even looking over the posts? What kind of person would have to pretend to be an appraiser and post things about measuring houses? Based on my experience hiring (firing) and attending CE seminars for the last 27 years, I can say that Appraisers are a very sad group of people. Going to a CE seminar is like going to a circus.

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          • Avatar chrischris says:

            ***This comment was edited by AppraisersBlogs Team because it violated our TOU and is inappropriate within the context of this blog.***

            Chris..I agree 100%. No wonder I became to go to guy for the big funders in this country…I took over 30-50% of my lenders…the funders told them if they want their paper then they had to call me….Half my clients hated me for doing my job…I had so much fun with them…..most were under 25 years old, taught how to lie to borrowers, max the fees out, points on the back end…don’t pay your credit cards cause we will have your loan done by the time the credit gods report, then they raped them at the settlement table…we used to call it table rape.

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            • Avatar BA says:

              ***This comment was edited by AppraisersBlogs Team for compliance with TOU and our commenting guidelines.***

              Well aren’t you the proud one there CHRIS or chris chris or the other CHRIS or chris . LOL….so really crazy

              I was wondering when you were going to spill the beans here. So LO or 1 of the 1000-s of “Mortgage Company Owners” who did everything and anything to make a killing and then blamed all you did that was illegal on the APPRAISERS..

              OR maybe just a revoked licensee?

              Well all I can say is good for you buddy, sorry it didn’t work out for you after you quit the very lucrative job you mentioned to be in the industry and then the FEDS shut you and the secondary market down because of things like “table rape”. Seen it tried and shut it down…. walked right out the door with my clients in front of me!!

              So 30 years of CE and the only way you could make a living was Table Rape??? AND NOW YOU PUSH ANSI for accuracy???

              Ok now let’s get down from your high horse of greatness and discuss things that are real, and not your silly ego and made up success stories. Really you more than likely do have something worthwhile to contribute so let’s get with it. True and worthwhile experiences and no bed time stories or boring fairy tales you tell yourself late at night or others just for kicks.

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          • Avatar BA says:

            I notice you say ” Appraisers are a very sad group” ….as if you are not part of that group. !!! HMMMM well that sort of says it all. I learned a long time ago if you listen long enough to what another person says over time….THE TRUTH WILL COME OUT.

            Focus groups… “watchers” market researchers and even LE get on these forms all the time to glean information, check reactions and simply get to the pulse of any matter they want to investigate.

            REALLY you did not know this ??? LO

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            • Avatar Chris says:

              So then the answer is yes, you are one of those appraisers I am talking about since you dont know what I am talking about.

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            • Avatar Chris says:

              ***This comment was edited by AppraisersBlogs Team for compliance with TOU and our commenting guidelines.***

              BA… I am the appraiser who brought up table rate.

              I understand you were a little confused over the two different Chris’s that are responding on this site.

              When I respond to Chris, I use Chris Chris.

              Because I became really good at doing appraisals, on exceptionally difficult properties, my name went through the industry as being the appraiser go to guy by the big funders.

              When the funders needed to have an appraisal rereading because they were still alone and they didn’t want to jeopardize their pool of money, they called me.

              I had to do a field review in order to discredit the current appraisal, and they could not risk their pool by including it because the investors could reject the entire pool.

              In order to get the loan done they needed an appraisal. I learned a lot during those years, there are many appraisers in the Philadelphia market area and surrounding area that should have had their licensees removed.

              The funders gave me the same story, we like the lender, this appraiser doesn’t commit fraud all the time, we just have to weed out the fraudulent ones.

              That was until mid 2005, when the mortgage buy back started.

              I’ve been asked to handle license revocation cases in Harrisburg or state capital.

              I did not want to do that so I quoted $500 an hour including drive time, when I tell you I was talking to the big boys, I’m talking the owners of these funders.

              I was also asked to check out the borrowers, to see if they were thinking of taking off with the money and not paying the loan back, so I set up what we called quality controller appraisals, I was paid full fee to talk to the borrowers to see what they were up to and then report it back to these funders.

              You have no idea of my experience, you accuse me of bragging, when all I’m trying to do is tell you I’m not some little minion appraiser who was taught by their mommy or daddy and got by.

              I was taught by the best, and then I got better.

              Only because I hate underwriters, am I second most client sent me the underwriter check off list of how they grade appraisals, I’m going back to 1998, so once I knew with the underwriters looked for, and I didn’t want to be bothered with underwriter letters so everything was included in the appraisal that they could possibly ask for.

              I made more money because it is, I became respected in the industry, thousands of people across the country know my name.

              I was loved and I was despised, so bad, but they still called me to do their appraisals.

              This block is about a standardization of measurement for appraisers, I do not mind talking about other things, I think it is good for all of us to vent frustrations.

              I don’t understand why some appraisers are upset over a standardization that frankly has been around for the rest of us for at least 15 to 20 years.

              And some of us have actually been using ANSI for our entire careers. In my opinion some of the arguments against the standardization are unreasonable.

              It takes a special person to be able to handle being a real estate appraiser.

              I have spoken to many prior to submitting my review appraisals.

              I would call them, and ask why they did what they did, and they all said the same answer, they were afraid of losing their clients.

              I did not like to move to management companies, it cost me my office, we were charging $350 for an appraisal in the next day the management companies were only offering 200, stealing 90% of our profit margin from us.

              I survived doing FHA deals until December, and then I jumped to a national lender as a staff appraiser and made a small fortune handling all their short sales and foreclosures in the worst counties in the country.

              I got very lucky after leaving them, and I am very happy, and I have not worked for a management company ever.

              But my partner who I taught, had to put up with the management companies, she sat next to me every day, I heard every story, one even canceled an appraisal when she was 10 minutes away from the house because they found an appraiser to do it for $25 less.

              After 2 weeks she was accidentally sent the underwriter letter, asking for 15 mistakes to be corrected, she politely said I was not the appraiser on the job please send it to the appraiser that did the job.

              A week later there was another 10 steps, she politely replied to same thing I was not the appraiser please send to the appraiser that you utilized.

              5 days later she got another letter with another 5 steps, this time she said to the management company, call the appraiser that you use to save $15 to $25, your appraisal would have been done within 3 days from the inspection perfectly, so stop emailing me the underwriter steps.

              Like I said before, this website is great for appraisers to vent their frustrations, and these days we have many many more frustrations, it’s just a reality of current times.

              I do not want to personally attack you, I always say we are all in this together, it is a shame that we could not nationalize on the national level and tell these lenders and management companies the rules.

              I called over 180 appraisers, when HVCC came out, they all said the same story, but the other appraisers won’t go along with the union.

              I used to tell them, the nude models in this country that stand in front of college students in cold conditions for hours at end, we’re able to unionize to get better wages and better working conditions.

              And we appraisers, could not organize ourselves, they did at the state level, but they did not do it at the national level.

              I blame the appraisal institute, they are run by commercial appraisers who could care less about residential appraisers.

              I wish you well in your business and your life, I have no ill feelings to anybody that opposes my opinions, I try not to insult them, but at the same time I try to get them to think.

              But in the end, it’s a waste of my breath and I have known this for over 40 years.

              I am 56 years old and in the next 60 days I will retire to Asia and live a life of paradise, I will come back to this country for 4 months, make $70,000, and live the dream. I will spend 30 days in every country getting to know the locals and tasting their food and wine, and I will sit back and read these blogs and I will wish the best for all of you.

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              • Avatar BA says:

                First let me say I never accused you or anyone of “bragging.” That was not me. Other people have commented on that not me.

                I do feel you spend a lot of time repeating your accomplishments over and over and how well you were loved by the very people in the industry that WE as Americans had to bail out due to their lack of good policy and collateralization of funds. May be sort of ironic to many of us here IMO Just saying…

                I also feel you have spent a serious amount of time calling all of us morons, stupid and incapable. I did state that you need to start reading what is posted and not just rush to post inaccuracies because you don’t read. You and the other guy if there is one comment that you are the only ones who know how to measure, Sketch and do it right!! REALLY ?

                You do not know any of us, our skill levels, are Histories or our work product yet you make some pretty serious negative judgements on all of us but the other CHRIS or chris, or chris chris!!

                You don’t know if I have a PHD in Economics, Valuations and marketing or if I am a part time appraiser… full time Walmart greeter! I don’t think you know anything about any or all of the others you have continued to attack and insult either. JMO

                BUT if you bother to read and if you are as good as you continue to say you are then why not address the real issues and valid concerns NOT about ANSI but about the lack of consideration by FNMA to consider the MARKET, the lack of direction and even common sense in the adjustments AND the simple lack of truth on why this is being implemented in a way that ONLY benefits FNMA and its investors. Why not be truthful when they are GSE? Our money keeps them in business!! Further WE all know they are trying to circumvent the very appraisers supplying them the data they need to be successful.

                So I would love to read your comments and to have you read all of those here as well and add good knowledgeable comments to the forum. Doug, Baggins, Martin and many others are brilliant in my opinion and their concerns are VALID and need acknowledged IMO

                So I will surely read and appreciate your input. If you could just stop belittling everyone… that would be great!! and please think about this… You are claiming skill and tremendous knowledge while agreeing with a guy who says “there are no 1.5 story homes and asks can anyone really live in a home with 5 foot ceilings? “and says “just guess at the comps GLA,” while calling the rest of us morons!!

                That is simply NOT contributing anything useful in my opinion. Sorry

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                • Avatar Chris says:

                  I, and I guess the other Chris are simply pointing out that a standardized method of measuring is nothing to get upset about the way most here seem to be and coming up with wild scenarios about basements and no second floors. Reading all of these comments indicates that many appraisers really do not know how to measure and it seems that if we were to take all of the anti ANSI people here and have them measure the same house there would be HUGE differences in living areas and basements. That is alarming. Those who are not scared of ANSI have been using it as long as we have been appraising and honestly thought that is how everyone was measuring. I have seen reports with horribly wrong sketches and in my mind chalked it up to lazy (copy the assessors sketch when available or rounded where every length was a nice round number) or inexperienced appraisers. Out of all the things that can be different in an appraisal (say there were 10 appraisals on one house), the living area should NEVER be one of those things no matter where the appraisers are from or how much experience they have. I cant believe anyone would argue against that. All of these “world ending” scenarios I am reading… They are nothing new! The Cape Cod or Bungalow with dormers and low ceilings are not new houses. What has everyone done up to now? How did you get and verify GLA before? To me it seems most were just guessing with no real proof or method that would stand up to scrutiny. I have not seen anyone here say they are superior to anyone. I know I am not and thats why I am so amazed at all of this. I have no more than average intelligence and no better than average skills appraising and I am able to easily comprehend ANSI and have always used it. If I can do it there is no reason any person could not either. This is no a plot to remove all appraisers, if that was the goal, all the information needed is available from every assessor, recorder, county treasurer and building department in every county of every state in this country. I am “for this” because to me, it would give the impression that appraisers might know what they are doing. IF the most basic thing about a house cant be consistent between all appraisers, there is a problem. When reviewing reports one of the first things I do is look at the sketch, from that I can tell what kind of report it will probably be.

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                  • Avatar BA says:

                    I really hope you will read this as it is evident either you are not reading the comments or there may be comprehension / communication issues that we need to break through.

                    As I have stated many times before but you and the other Chris choose to disregard…. I already do and have been measuring “CORRECTLY”. I can show you reports from 20 years ago showing commentary in my reports about the 5 foot ceiling height and open foyers and all the rest as stated in ANSI. So please MOVE ON…

                    I am sure many of the people here have been measuring correctly as well.

                    ONE last time AND hopefully you will be open minded enough to comprehend/or at least consider these things. The problem is not ANSI or any other standardized method, as you want to beat the drums and say here.
                    Evidently you do not understand that ANSI was not designed for appraisal purposes. IT was suggested as the most uniform and accurate way to measure. It is a standard system for everything from shoes to screwdrivers and all else in between requiring sizing.

                    Now what if someone told you that all tools had to be metric from May 1st forward? What about all the items that require decimal already in the homes of millions across the US.? Would you expect everyone to just throw the items they own that are not metric away? It is an internationally recognized system so it must be the best right?

                    But not everyone knows it and not everyone wants to use it and no one wants to replace all they own that requires the decimal system for the now required metrics. Further not everyone will be on board at the same time and THIS will create a MESS!! (Very basic example here) Manufactures make both system because there is demand for both even if you feel one is better not everyone feels, thinks, needs or WANTS what you do. THE PUBLIC …THE MARKET determines this.

                    We have markets and market segments which are used to determine reaction of humans to everything that is made, built , consumed and manufactured. But here you have FNMA denying a Market reaction simply for uniformity of GLA.

                    That is just one concern that this is about here! That and so much more but it is NOT ONLY about measuring a home with ANSI.

                    The Vegetarian market is now a large percent of grocery sales. Organic is even bigger now. Vegan is a newer and expanding market for us in the US. Green living is another one and so are energy efficient appliances. Electric cars are increasing very quickly in sales. There many more … on and on! All of these are offered because the public want them and now demands them. In the 60’s TV dinners were a rage. 1000 sq foot ranch homes were desired and 1.5 stories were offed as a budget friendly family home. ALL had great market acceptance. Many still have good to very good acceptance today. The 1000 Sq ft home was replaced through public demand by the 2400 sq ft 2 story in the 80’s BUT there are STILL a lot of those ranches left and they are still selling well because of MARKET acceptance. FHA used to have a GLA limit and now does not. Why… because public perception and therefore demand AND Value changed. Now TINY houses are desirable in many areas and can be financed.

                    FNMA says NO to the MARKET and yes to accurate measurements. Well friend the market determines desirability, it determines acceptance and the market determines VALUE. If the public wants open floor plans and 4 room homes then builders will build them. Architect will design them and decorators will decorate then and furniture manufactures will supply more versatile furniture to furnish them. Public demand, opinion, requirements and public view on values ARE THE MOST important part of all facets of consumer products and the housing market as well.

                    But now to accomplish uniform measurements we are told to disregard public acceptance and MARKET REACTION!! We are told ALL areas are the same!! FNMA an entity that is not qualified to tell the PUBLIC or the MARKET what they want, what they accept and what they value is now saying forget THEM they don’t figure into the equation anymore!!. That is just a small part of what I am here objecting to. FNMA direction on the adjustment of GLA that I have no way to obtain and then confirm is against EVERYTING I know about appraising and about accurate data. About researching for a reliable conclusion. You can not adjust what you do not know… at least I can’t and I am not going to mislead anyone into thinking I can.

                    To separate out the MARKET accepted GLA and to say that the other area which is ALSO HISTORICALLY MARKET accepted as GLA as well and give it a lesser or greater value with out DATA from the market is simply wrong and more misleading that anything we have known before IMO. Yes 1.5 stories have been around for years and entire families were raised in them. But now we decide that no one wants them anymore because there are areas with lower ceiling heights. Well that is NOT what the MARKET SHOWS. Further to subtract GLA in 1.5 stories makes the PPSF soar and that is also misleading IMO. So with this a 1.5 story is worth more per sq ft than a 2 story!! There are a lot of questions and much more to consider than GLA being accurate. What about EVERYTHING ELSE being misrepresented to the public? WE DO NOT HAVE MARKET DATA TO SUPPORT adjustments on the newly grid levels yet as this is not YET a market accepted theory or concept (it may never be in certain areas) So now we have a dilemma. Which is more important MARKET acceptance on GLA or ANSI standard GLA. How do you accurately adjust for anything that does not have MARKET acceptance? How do you support adjustments that do not have enough information on to have data to support?? Now we are guessing at adjustments and the public and all else in the housing industry is questioning all of it and US!!

                    So please understand the Earth is not flat and there is more to the FNMA requirement than simply measuring a property. ALL JMO humble opinion… or concern.

                    As to the other statement you made. First let’s just go back and read the comments about “all of these CRY BABIES not knowing how to measure!” Come on now for weeks we see over and over “that the rest of us are morons and we don’t know anything” and more. So please don’t make it worse by acting like we simply misunderstood or like it was not written. OK? Let’s just move on.

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                    • Avatar chrischris says:

                      ***This comment was edited by AppraisersBlogs Team for compliance with TOU and our commenting guidelines.***

                      BA… Like I said…if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck over and over and over …then it is a duck.

                      Once you start to separate these areas and adjust separately, you will see the value differences these area have to the MARKET. If you haven’t been doing this.. like most of us, you simply don’t get it yet. But you will eventually.

                      This ANSI thing is nothing more to make you better appraisers and just not relaying on 1 GLA figure dictate your reports.

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  136. Baggins Baggins says:

    Why would someone promote a for profit product? I just can’t figure this one out.

    https://www.ansi.org/outreach/government/ansi-activities

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    • Avatar chrischris says:

      Baggins…siding for profit ??? Really…..a measurement standard ??? You just can not see the forest through the trees. Its a common problem these days with Americans…..well half of us any.

      Do you really think this is a conspiracy?

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    • Avatar Chris says:

      5′ 3″ is 5’3″ not 5′ how does taking out that 1,2 or 3 inches make you a better appraiser? Anyone with a simple measuring tape can prove you cant measure. And your response is, adding in that few inches is to taxing on me and too time consuming? How does it feel that any non appraiser can prove your measurements wrong within a few minutes? How professional does that make appraisers as a group look? I wonder do you have a disclaimer in all your reports that the actual measurements are not what is used in your report? If not, I would think an angry lawyer you piss off could make a good case to the disciplinary board that you are not competent

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      • Avatar chrischris says:

        Chris…I keep asking them what were they doing before ? None have responded…tells me they were not measuring subjects….Can you imagine not measuring and just relaying on an assessor or builder or realtor…. ???

        How dumb are they? Oh..never mind… and they are NOW crying about liability??? And everything else BUT actually measuring the right size……baffling !!!

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        • Avatar Chris says:

          The sketch and measuring is probably the easiest part of the entire process. I guess its even easier when you only pretend to do it.

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          • Avatar chrischris says:

            Chris….I agree, however the crazy houses can add 1-2 hours to our inspections and sketches when all is done…..that is what they are crying about.

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    • Avatar Chris says:

      Baggins, Wait… are you the same guy who says he gets at least $4,000 an appraisal (Residential) and commonly gets $20,000?

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      • Avatar chrischris says:

        Chris…Yes…I do ChrisChris when talking to you so it doesn’t get confusing. The most I was ever paid was $4,000 for a mufti-million dollar property….My buddy just was paid $12,000 to do a 12,000 sqft house, no one wanted it so he priced it high, there was no one to call…LOL When I did court appearances I was paid $2,000 to noon time, if it went over by even 1 minute, I was paid $4,000. for the day. When I was younger and I was charging $350 (way back when) when the industry was till charging $250, 275, 300, I doubled my fees to $700 to go across PA, New Jersey and Delaware states.My clients paid me to go so they didn’t have to call the monkeys in these back water counties. I had a ball, I never got lost, I found places I had never been. they would do mass mail drops, They had plenty of work not far away, and that was even before computers and when we had to use comp books, once the computers came out, it was even easier. And that was way before GPS….LOL I dictated my turn times, no one else, if you didn’t like it, i told them to call a different appraiser next time…..Once they saw my reports flying through underwriting i was their #1 guy. I don’t play games, I don’t lie, I don’t take B.S. from no one !!! I was taught by the best and then I got even better.

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        • Avatar Chris says:

          There is a guy on one of these forums that said he gets minimum $2,000 for a Standard 1004 report which he said was on the low side.

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    • Avatar Chris says:

      ***This comment was edited by AppraisersBlogs Team. Personal attack is edited out because it’s inappropriate within the context of this blog.***

      That actually happened to me. Training a guy and as we start and I am showing how to measure he quit because I wanted it to be accurate. He walk off right there. He said why do you want to waste time like this?

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      • Avatar chrischris says:

        Chris…not sure if you re talking to me…no I never quit, did my whole training with the same company…I still miss those days…they had 25 appraisers with 25 assistants and the most beautiful girls typing our handwritten reports…then we got DOS, then windows, then digital cameras.

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        • Avatar Chris says:

          ***This comment was edited by AppraisersBlogs Team because it violated our TOF and is inappropriate within the context of this blog.***

          Sorry, no. You have a realistic view of all thats going on. I was directing that/those comments to the ones who feel I, and I guess you, are not really appraisers and are trying to infiltrate the appraisal community to implement the dreaded ANSI standard. But then, how would I know… Im just pretending to be an appraiser.

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          • Avatar chrischris says:

            Chris..I understand LOL, appraisers can charge what they want, if there is no one else to call…..He/She may be doing high end homes no one want to do….who knows…

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  137. Avatar Chris says:

    Nobody is promoting anything. I, and a few others here, are seeing the need for a standardized form of measurement. Any home owner with any house in any city in this entire country should be able to expect that ANY appraiser from ANYWHERE in this country could come by this house, measure it and end up with a total GLA that is within a few sf of each other. A few, 10 to maybe even 50 sf. But people are getting results of 100 or more form just a few appraisers. If I was the home owners I would think the appraisals are a scam too. This is all very simple 3rd grade stuff. Measure and use that measurement. If you cant stand up in an area dont count it as living area, if there is no floor you can stand on, dont pretend there is and add that area in as if there was a floor. SIMPLE! Even a low IQ person like me gets it.

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    • Avatar Chris says:

      A conspiracy to make us use specific measuring devices or use actual measurements… YEA that’s it! SO Evil

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  138. Avatar BA says:

    I’m not so sure that there are so MANY appraisers in the US that do not have a clue as to how to measure. IMO There are just too many safety or red flag alerts in place to stop these “unknowledgeable” people to continue in this industry. Sq footage/GLA does not necessarily increase value and it’s not the way the crooked guys cheat. It is too easily discovered just as you all point out here..

    Out of immediate market area for comps is the number 1 way Realtors CMAs achieve high values to “buy listings” and bad appraisers often use this too. Unsupported adjustments, condition, amenities as well as false statements, adjustments for rooms, bathrooms and garages all are the top of the cheating chart. Some of these things area easily seen and some not so easily…. easy to catch GLA not so much used in escalating value cause comps need to be with on 20% tops so you cant get too much value there, nothing crazy at least.

    I was sent an appraisal (buy the owner) on a home that was a typical 2 story open foyer 2 story great room completed for purchase transaction in 2018. All 3 comps were in the 2700-2800 GLA range but with ANSI the correct subject GLA was really 2432. (you know open foyer and 2 story great room) The comps 1-2 miles did not support value so distance was increased by the appraiser to 4.5 miles to a lake area community market. Subject had an above ground pool not anything fancy. Subject was a 1992 built with no updates or remodeling. . The lake area comp with a 400K sale had a 60 x 40 pole barn 2017, 3 bay vehicle storage with workshop and bathroom . IT also had a 20 x 40 inground pool with an out door kitchen in a fabulous shelter with a bath, changing room, theater area and bar all in 2015 to 2019. Really over the top. The other comps were 325 K and 355 K just ordinary 2 story built in 1992 and 1996. The subject had no pole barn or added car storage . Only a cheep PERSONL PROPERTY above ground pool and nothing else. All properties were on 2 to 5 acres lots. The contract sale price was 375 K for the subject. The 400K comp was far from a comparable but the appraiser needed it to make value for the loan.
    The appraiser adjusted + for the pool in the subject , did not correctly measure and then did a 40 K adjustment for + condition on comps 1 and 2. WA..LA.. 380K opinion of value!! Sale Closed.

    I would love to send everyone the exterior and interiors of the comps and the subject and the appraisers report to show everyone how glaring the manipulation was in this. As much as I agree the GLA was certainly wrong, which any QC or underwriter could tell… (County showed 2426 for the subject by the way.) The fact that page 1 showed above ground pool and the grid gave a + adjustment to the subject and the fact that the GLA was over all reported sources, the interior showed no updates. The pole building, shelter and pool amenities in the 400K comp were adjusted very slightly – to the subject. Even a total Moran could see that comp 3 was so far superior to the subject….farther away in a higher priced market and all the interior & exterior pictures were right there on the internet!! This subject was inflated by over 50 to 60K!!

    So who do we blame here??? In my opinion the QC, the underwriter and the LENDER ! Anyone can see what happened here and the GLA being wrong WAS NOT the reason this closed at a value that was not supported by any appraisal. Since that time I have seen 3 more appraisals on the same home completed in the past 1.5 years and ALL showed value opinions of 325 K to 365 tops. Now the appraiser who committed this egress action could not be successfully with out the compliancy of the REST of the people charged with marking sure the loan was properly collateralized..

    This appraiser should have been suspended, fined and made to complete more education a LONG TIME AGO. But the AMC and the mortgage company and all the rest in the line allowed him to continue.
    That is ALSO a CRIME IMO and yet none of the others will ever be caught and punished!!

    The lenders love appraisers “mistakes or omissions” but when the reports are so bad that a novice can see the poor quality shouldn’t the lender be called on the carpet and fined/and or suspended as well.?
    We now are seeing 2 appraisals on the same asst more and more often. IMO GLA is really not the biggest problem here. JMO

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    • Avatar chrischris says:

      BA…I know head reviewers and FHA reviewers, I hear all the time half the appraisers have no idea of what they are really doing…..the simple fact of the matter is that there is not enough appraisers anymore, they get a slap on the wrist, maybe a class and that it.

      That is why the big boys are moving away form appraisers. Also Why they are moving to ANSI, just not about measuring to the inch, but a uniform way of reporting GLA.

      When the big lenders out there create their own “den” of in house appraisers for $30.00/hr, they will then use the Grab drives to measure houses and take pics and videos.

      As the work goes down in the next year or too, appraisers will be falling over themselves to make a living….Banks make more, appraisers make less. They don’t care. Hungry appraisers make deals.

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      • Avatar BA says:

        Well I do agree the banks are trying to remove appraiser from the mortgage lending field.
        That’s why they screamed for more education and more qualifications in 2006. (to make it harder for appraiser to increase in numbers) That’s why they insisted they would only use Certified Appraisers in 2008 and after. That’s why they developed desk top reports and on and on and on. This has been going on for WELL over 30 years. They don’t like us because we keep the system more reliable. WE are the ones who show investors their funds are collateralized This year its ANSI and next year it will be another bogus nonsensical demand. (not that uniform standards for measuring or ANSI is bad because it isn’t. IMO). The way the undereducated in Appraisal practice and unknowing of the methods and requirements are trying to apply it in appraising has nothing to do with ANSI, THE MARKET logic or even common sense. Their way is more than misleading and far from accurate. We have ALL pointed out many VAILD reasons it is no good this way.
        IMO It is only a matter of time before the REAL powers step in and cancel FNMA ability to demand this nonsense. We all have seen it before… rules are put in place then revoked all together. Now the requirements are less stringent than 2006. Now lenders allow Apprentices, and now things are starting to revert to less lender control and more clear support for appraisers. NOW the AMC are licensed and now the FEE PAID to the appraiser HAS to be disclosed. Thes guys just can not play fair no matter what and will never be allowed to have a more free rein to do more wrong IMO.
        . We are not going away any more than the FERA, TILA , Consumer Protection and the CFS Act. Do you really believe that all the protection put in place because of “MR Potter” ways and rules in banking were killing the public are going to go away? LOL you silly boy… all of the safe guards were put in place because the “big boys” as you call them were committing criminal acts against the consumers. If permitted they would still do so. AIR and all the other RULES, LAWS and decisions are in place because the “big boys” really screwed up many times over years and years of nonsense and in 2004, 05 and 06 and WE had to bail them out. They CAN not get rid of appraisers because everyone with a bit of intelligence knows that they are not capable of doing the right things.
        I was a staff appraiser. One of the biggest mortgage lenders in the US could not provide enough business in this State to keep the Staff Appraisers busy. They went back to independents within a year and a half. They do not pay Staffers enough to keep the lights on and what they did pay was too much for them to keep going. 16 appraisals a month for 2000.00 GROSS a month!! Not many will work for that! That very low salary was the only way they can make money due to the required benefits!
        There are good guys in the industry as well and THEY all support Appraisal independence and encourage a roll back in the requirements to increase the numbers in our profession.

        So please stop with the dooms day stuff already. We aren’t going anywhere soon!

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  139. Avatar PJTMC says:

    I have to say, the purpose of this site has lost its interest to me as it has gone way beyond meaningful information and discussions. What is happening now discredits all those who actually contributed meaningful information. The blog has morphed into a soap box stand for bragging rights. It has turned into the second coming of the “almighty appraiser” who passes judgement upon others; slandering and pointing fingers at others is not what is needed at this time. I, for one, could care less about the incessant war stories and how the day was saved…hi-o silver; we all have them. This endless litany of bragging is boring to say the least. It is unfortunate this is happening as, for a while there, the blog was getting pretty good. This nonsense has reduced the blog relevance to a self-serving, mundane talk show. Take some of that energy and do something constructive. To those that took the time to provide meaningful information I am grateful for your insight and information. I’m out….

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    At the end of the day, just remember why we’re all here: to talk about our profession. While debates are bound to become heated at times given the passion of appraisers, it’s important to be respectful and civil toward each other. More than anything, just keep this in mind: Treat others as you would want to be treated.

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  141. Avatar Redbeef says:

    Since this discussion got off track, I have not interjected with any comments, but I want to describe a scenario in which there needs to be more leeway for when ANSI standards are not possible for a report. I am sure for those of you with mathematical or engineer-like thinking would be able to figure it out relatively simply, but my brain hurts because of the whole “below grade” criteria. This is the first appraisal I have done of a multi-level property since April 1, and it is killing me and making me want to find another career. Here it is: The subject is a front to back multi-level. Four levels with one level being a garden level (considered GLA by the market here) and one level which is true basement area.
    The market would consider this 1813/sf of GLA (Three of the levels) with a fourth level of 494/sf finished basement. But, with ANSI, I now have to consider the subject to have 1248/sf GLA with 1055/sf of Basement (100% finished). I have two smaller comparables that are luckily similar front to back multilevel floor plans, but the actual 100% subterranean basement areas are not completely finished. So now, after breaking out the garden levels of these two comps, one has 1072/sf GLA and 1093/GLA. I make my adjustment for GLA ($115/sf). Easy enough so far. But now for both comps I have to break out the “basement” square footage that is considered GLA by the market to I can also adjust that at $115/sf and break out the actual finished and unfinished basement square footage so I can adjust those at $20/sf. Of course, there is no way to do this cleanly and easily in the Alamode Total software, so I have to do this all on a spread sheet so the underwriters can see why the adjustments are all over the place for the basement area and not consistent with one another. I am extremely lucky that the garden level portions are nearly the same size, so I don’t have to consider and make a separate adjustment for the garden level basement area which would be at $115/sf. Ultimately, after adding and/or subtracting all of the differences for the actual basement areas. the final adjustment amount is very inconsistent for both comps. It works out in the end, but it was a hell of a lot more work to get there. But the real problem is there are no similar comps for a third or more comps. The only other comps are side by side multilevels (four levels), none of which have a garden level. They all have three levels above grade, and a true basement level. So, the third comp I am attempting to use has a much larger GLA and a much smaller basement area per ANSI standards. Where I used to only have to make adjustments for total basement area and finished basement area, now I have to figure out three or four different adjustments, and add/subtract them together for a final adjustment number. For this comp, I need to consider the subject’s “basement” area that the market says is GLA and adjust at $115, then take the difference of the true basement’s unfinished area to adjust at $20/sf and the difference of the true basement’s finished area at $20/sf. Then I have to add/subtract those three numbers with each other to conclude to a total adjustment number to put in the grid. It is no longer as simple as making one unfinished basement area adjustment and one finished area adjustment because the finished area requires adjustments at both $115 and $20. This is exhausting just trying to explain this, and if you’ve read this far, it probably doesn’t even make sense. One I figure out the numbers, I have to explain all of this to the underwriter/reader of the report so they know what is going on? My brain is cooked. I’m going to go get a very tall glass of bourbon.

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    • Avatar BA says:

      Hang in there we all (or most of us) feel your pain and many will be adding to the liquor cabinet for use after multi-level assignments.

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      Oh it makes perfect sense RedBeef. It’s just there are some people here whom can’t get their mind around general competency, development requirements, and the compelling factors of peer standards within their own jurisdictions municipal rules and pre existing MLS member services clear as day definitions of how ‘all the MLS members’ are supposed to recognize and document housing space. The consistent response was; once appraisers combine garden and basement, they’ll see the below grade areas don’t track the same as above grade. Clearly for those of us in markets where garden level is tracking same as fully above grade, these are wildly false and easily provably incorrect assumptions. Because garden levels are not basements. Garden levels are ground floor levels. Basements are not ground floor levels.

      They’re going to need 3 lines on the FNMA forms; AGLA, garden, and ‘fully below grade’ basement.

      Better not juggle them or you’ll drive up net gross indicators. Better not try and combine them with a varied adjustment basis or you’ll confuse automated reviews, human reviewers, will fire auto alerts and you’ll deal with stips routinely (most will probably not bother with your spread sheet review). Better not cross comp various split level types or you’ll make an absolute mess of the analysis and people will not be able to interpret or understand the appraisers methods unless they’re an ANSI elitist.

      One option: Fill the grid and complete the sketch as you normally would. I also suggest supplementing MLS data of comparables into reports, so readers can clearly see ‘the local market’ does not recognize ANSI. Then that’s a clean and simple normal report as you’ve always done. Take a screen capture, include it as a jpg or pdf. Then butcher your analysis, drive up net/gross, improperly combine garden and basement, and provide clear contrasting data how ANSI took what was a working method and destroyed important analytical and comparative benchmarks in the report. Include a note you can turn it back to the image capture ‘traditional method’ if the lender will approve use of the GXX001 – ANSI exception code. For the first time in your appraisal career, hope for a revision request on that specific point.

      Second option is to reserve the garden/basement level 1004 line for one or the other, but do not combine them. Like scoot garden level to it’s own line item. This will at least save all your net/gross indicators and you won’t have to deal with the conundrum of applying mis matching spaces with mis matching adjustment basis, as their market reactions are different from each other. Because; (drumroll), a garden level is not a basement. You will however lose all your side by side adjustment assist.

      The very fact this happened at all and you are in a market location which does not recognize garden levels as basements (because they are not), means you have just lost the entirety of your personal and shared comps databases. Everything must start over. You have just lost all data sources for redundant verification unless your assessor breaks down every space individually. Additionally you may have to reform your MLS data mapping and will always have to manually verify everything since agents often lump the garden and agla together and don’t always fill out those individual lines, as they merely auto import from assessors whom also often do not distinguish garden from agla space. Because; garden levels are not basements.

      Be sure to write your objection to FNMA directly here:

      https://singlefamily.fanniemae.com/appraiser-contact-us-form

      For such supposed pro’s, some people here have a real difficult time respecting and recognizing the importance of local jurisdictions, municipal guidelines, and MLS member services standards of operations and professional expectations. They can not seem to get their mind around that concept that in many locations, there is already a universal standard, and that standard is NOT ANSI.

      You don’t win games by running the wrong direction on the field.

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  142. Avatar BA says:

    IN THEORY….This is very similar to what has happened in the Market the past 2 years. When the inventory dropped, and interest rates were historically low. We saw contract prices hit the highest level ever in history. Does this mean that the market had climbed in percentages never before seen or was it an unsupported market?
    First we have to look at the definition of market value . it states
    Definition of Market Value
    Market value is the most probable price that a property should bring in a competitive and open market under all conditions requisite to a fair sale, the buyer and seller, each acting prudently, knowledgeably and assuming…. the price is not affected by undue stimulus….. Implicit in this definition is the consummation of a sale as of a specified date and the passing of title from seller to buyer under conditions whereby: buyer and seller are typically motivated; both parties are well informed or well advised, and each acting in what he or she considers his/her own best interest;
    a reasonable time is allowed for exposure in the open market;
    Payment is made in terms of cash in U.S. dollars or in terms of financial arrangements comparable thereto; and the price represents the normal consideration for the property sold unaffected by special or creative financing or sales concession.
    So we see that the PRICE can not be effected by undue stimulus .. The lowest rates in HISTORY and even more important specifically SUPPLY AND DEMAND ARE the very definition of undue stimulus which was in effect in 2020 and 2021.
    The entire Real Estate Market in the past 2 to 2 and 1/2 years does not meet the definition of fair market value, The definition also requires buyer and seller to act in their own best interest. Paying OVER appraised or “market” value is not acting in any buyer’s best interest IMO. Neither is waiving ALL inspections or appraisal contingency clauses. A Seller set a price with reasonable information and comparable from the area. The list price is what the seller will be happy to sell for and what the seller believes the property is really worth (possibly a bit less). So if a buyer pays over or even well over this “seller’s fair price” then the buyer is NOT acting in their own best interest but out of desperation, fear or just plain lack of information on area values. Lets not leave or reasonable exposure on the open market!! in 2020 and 2021 contracts were written and accepted in hours on the market… NOT the normal 30 to 90 days or more seen before this. That is not reasonable exposure according to the definition.
    Now for at least the first half of 2020 contracts were written OVER market value and over appraisal value. The historic values just were not that high for sold properties in the 12 months prior to that time…. the sales could not be supported with COMPS. So Buyers had to bring cash to complete the sales. UNFORTUNATLY that part of the sale was not made public record. Public records only showed concessions and NOT the cash required OVER the appraised price. This was a very serious error IMO as it gave FALSE values on sales by never disclosing the shortfall on the appraisal to contract close price. Slowly more sales in each neighborhood were closed at these over market value prices. This made it seem like the prices were supported by previous sales in each area. Which we KNOW they were NOT! PEOPLE JUST OVER PAID. Remember we all know appraisers cannot use sales that are so much higher in value than the ones previous sold within the 12 months prior… in the same area.
    At the end of 2020 there were enough of these inflated sales to show up as comparable sales and to support the historically high prices for future sales in 2021…even though the public records did not reflect the full information in an accurate way.
    If we as appraisers adhered to the definition of fair market value then we knew that these were NOT fair market sales. We have to use established fair market values for comparable. We must follow the requirements.

    Well the same thing goes for adjustments. NOT JUST IMO…We can’t just PFA. We have to be able to support and defend out report, our adjustments and our findings with data in our work files showing the support for all of it.
    FNMA makes this clear in their 2020 release of CU. They state the” typical 20 per sq foot used by appraisers for GLA adjustments will no longer be accepted unless valid data supports that adjustment.” These reports will be FLAGGED!!
    This is also well recognized in the Appraisal Standards and USPAP as well.
    So now here we are. Until we can see data supporting that the public… the MARKET… does in fact value the garden level in split or multi levels, in NYC Garden style construction or LAKE resort homes in highly valued areas to be different we can not say it is true. Does the CURRENT market consider the new method of separating the GLA to valid? Do they consider the garden area to be worth less ? More ???I there DATA to the show MARKET reaction? We can not PFA adjustments to satisfy any one or any requirement. Some areas may HAVE factual Data to show a reaction. NOT ALL markets do. Until we see how and if the area Market accepts, expects and pays 2 different values for the levels and until builders charge differently for the garden levels and make that a clear selling point, IMO we can not say that the levels have a different market reaction . This has simply NOT been established yet with data from the market to show a different reaction to these levels. Just like we have to have sold properties in a newly developed area or to newly offered styles or plans to show market acceptance we now have to wait and see how the market will value these levels. Maybe they will value them the same as has been the case for as long as these styles have been offered or maybe they will value the garden levels less as is suggested by FNMA. Right now in this area there is No data and I will not use PFA adjustments.
    Everyone is certainly free to do whatever their area recognizes and whatever they choose… I have no opinion on that.

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    • Avatar Chris says:

      Ba.. FNMA has not in any way suggested that garden levels are worth less. They just want those levels separated from above grade GLA.

      It seems to be a very misunderstood concept for some reason.

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      • Avatar BA says:

        The fact that they want these areas separated indicates that FNMA believes they have a value different than the rest of the structure’s finished areas. The fact that they do not want the area counted in GLA also suggests a different value is likely according to their way of thinking. As appraisers we do know that for years (all of my career) areas not considered in GLA were found to have a lower value in the largest percentage of structures. Below ground level basements, garages, 3 season rooms and other areas no counted in GLA…. ALL always required to be put in their own areas in the grid.
        I agree it IS confusing. WE see this clearly with all of the comments. HOW will the MARKET SEE it? That is the real question here. In some area the market will NOT AGREE WITH FNMA. Thats just fact. whether there will be a reaction that is measurable +/- in value terms remains to be seen .
        Right now the market sees an area which is below ground on all 3 sides with one side a walk out as “area that should be counted in the GLA” We know this is not accurate in most properties yet at times and in some markets we see it is. The Market tells us this.
        How do you think the MARKET will respond to this new requirement? They already have shown they do not respond the way some officials in lending OR even in APPRAISING feel they should in many other things as well. This isn’t about you or I or FNMA or ANSI. THIS is about the MARKET and being able to collect the DATA to show WHAT they VALUE and how they respond in a monetary way. Right now you know we can not say either way because we don’t have the DATA yet. So when we grid it on a separate line and label it FINISHED NON GLA we are ALREADY making a decision that may not be market supported! WE are deciding it is FINISHED NON GLA…we don’t know if that is how the market values/responds to it yet. We do know they have never seen it that way before. NOT IN MANY AREAS including mine. NOW do we put a 0 in for an adjustment or a number? Where are you getting that number from? NOT data because right now there is none either way. That is what many of the solid, knowledgeable, experienced, VETERAN, professionals see.
        Now remember FNMA has put in place many guidelines and requirements that have proven to be either ineffective, not applicable as intended by them or simply obsolete.
        In 2016 the GLA adjustment was researched across the US by a group consisting of State officials, lenders, builders and more. IT was found that no matter where the location or what price the home that over 90% of appraisers adjusted 20.00 per SQ ft!! That was addressed by FNMA in 2020 as I already stated. That became the number one reasons for disciplinary actions on appraisers UNSUPORTED ADJUSTMENTS. Next FNMA removed the net and gross, because they found that 95 % of appraisers were staying below the percentage and NOT giving proper adjustments because of the net and gross requirements! FNMA ALSO removed the 6 month sales requirement because appraisers were using comparable less similar to the subject to stay with in the 6 month requirement. So please just understand FNMA does not know how the requirements they implement will be applied, utilized and or even if they are a correct way to accomplish a better more accurate appraisal. SO far that has not been the case or all of these things would still be required.

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  143. Avatar BA says:

    Exterior measurement on ground level and interior measurements on upper levels and below ground does not equal consistency or accuracy. IMO
    How can 2 different methods for the same property equal consistent results? This is especially true with different people measuring the same property or so it’s been stated here.
    I did not pick up the information or direction on an adjustment for the interior on the second floors and below ground areas that require the appraiser to use interior measurements versa the exterior measurements at the ground level. A formula? A standard fixed adjustment on the GLA for the interior versa the exterior?
    What about different materials say plaster and lath board versa dry wall? Any consideration on that?
    All just questions that have been brought up before.

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    • Avatar Chris says:

      Ba…. 5 weeks ago I appraised the converted church, very old one, the first floor had about 5 ft, out of 40 feet, 5 foot length, the front, was 2 feet below grade, I did not count that entire area’s basement, why because it doesn’t function as a basement to the market, it have also would have made the property a one bedroom with one bath because that’s all they had on the second floor, there was two bedrooms a bath and a family room on the first level.

      So I wrote the report that the property did not have a basement and obviously I did not have other similar comparables, so I found one that did not have a basement, and I used to with basements.

      But if I wanted to I could have called it a basement, because I am the appraiser, and I could have valued it the same as above grade, nobody is telling you how to value the area.

      If I had a follow the new standard I would have put the code in, the report would be flagged and any reader of the report would look at the pictures and say we understand what the appraiser did and we either agree with them or disagree.

      No one is telling you what price per square foot to use, obviously if you measure and add it of course you would be using interior measurements, I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make,

      15 years ago when they came out with above grade and below grade on the appraisal report, we sat in class and the instructor informed us of this change.

      You boys seem to be 15 years behind the times, would you keep losing your mind about is what I’ve been doing for a living for more than 15 years every day when I write up a split level, a bi-level, or a split entry whatever you want to call it or a tri-level.

      No one tells me how to value these levels, only about how to report them.

      No one in all my years has ever questioned my adjustments, no one has ever asked me to prove my adjustments,
      .
      If you have different qualities of construction, you make your adjustments accordingly, and just let the reader of the report know how you walk the path to arrive at a market value for the property.

      All these underwriters look for is for exclamations So we conforms to investor requirements and that the big pools of money get bought by the investors and not returned needing to find a new investor to buy the pool of loans.

      Like I said before 100 times now, once you start to separate these areas you will start to see value differences.

      You seem to be hung up on what the market wants to tell us, that’s not the way the things work, lawyers are not told by their clients how to write up their legal briefs, doctors are not told by The market how to do doctoring.

      The markets don’t dictate how accountants do their accounting.

      And the markets don’t tell us appraisers how to do our appraising.

      But we all have to conform to standards.

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      • Avatar BA says:

        From all you are/have been saying I am getting the impression you may work more in the commercial world. (JMO) Most of what you comment on or how you address concerns fits nicely in the commercial world not so much in Residential. ANSI was well established in Commercial use for many, many years so your statement of “30 years or more of using ANSI” fits since it was accepted for that application well before the 1996 Resi use. Statements of using ANSI for OVER 30 years and “those who taught you were using it well before that” may apply to the Commercial market. Fees of 2000 K and 4000 K and 70K of income in a few months are possible in commercial in my experience. Many references you have made may apply to the Commercial industry. But that is NOT what we are talking about here. Your example here which is a conversion is not what anyone is STUCK on or questioning IMO. (Perhaps you do not understand this)

        In the example you are using a commercial conversion or a unique property. These do not apply to the concerns, questions or even the application here. These conversions are exceptions that can be treated differently if supported. We ALL know this already.

        Just for the sake of clarity on ANSI and your comments. The ANSI method requires the room count to be split above and below ground. So if (as an example) there is only 1 bedroom and no kitchen or living room that can be included in the GLA… you simply find a comparable with the same layout and adjust per MARKET REACTION to the room count above and below in separate lines calling them either non GLA or finished non GLA or simply GLA no matter how it all shakes out in design and style or market acceptance.
        THIS is what some of the comments were questioning and addressing as concerns that you just bounced over. Now you indicate you did not adhere to the ANSI method for this assignment seemingly because of the room locations and counts required in using the ANSI method. (or so it seems) as you state ….
        “it have also would have made the property a one bedroom with one bath because that’s all they had on the second floor, there was two bedrooms a bath and a family room on the first level.”
        According to FNMA, You, as an individual cannot make a determination on “what to call IT” or how to address it ANYMORE NOW. In Appraising 101 the market data determined or at least shows strong indication on what the area is or is not considered and how it is or is not accepted and or valued.
        IN the new requirement, ANSI determines all of this, according to what is shown in the course material.
        What about the whole reason FNMA is now requiring a standardized method? If all of us as Appraisers can make determinations on what “we think” then we are back to a lack of uniformity from one appraisal to the next. Something you say has been a problem with GLA since you started. Uniformity is uniformity. Do we consider it in one aspect and not another? IT either has a basement or it does not. What will the next Appraiser determine?
        AGAIN… ANSI states you cannot pick and choose what you use in the method. You either use it ALL… EVERY STEP or you cannot claim ANSI compliance.
        Your example shows ( or seems to strongly show) that just like the rest of us used your own judgement on how and when to measure areas “correctly” or by the Standard. You indicate in your own practice there was and is NOT an absolute.
        This is what we all want. The ability to abide by what the market considers and what the area recognizes in valuation. Just as you did in your example of the conversion for the basement and room count.
        FNMA now REQUIRES ANSI compliance. Although FNMA allows the exception for rare circumstances and A- typical construction or A- typical areas for SOME extreme construction like earth homes …it is up to FNMA what they decide to allow at this point. A reviewer, an underwriter or even an AMC QC may not agree with your reporting method. Do you say, ” I decided to report it as it had no basement and no value?”
        Then in the cost approach do you show the area with no cost for replacement? A FREEBIE AREA? Just wondering…
        IF you use the ANSI method as required, you cannot just decide to use the exception at will. FNAM has to approve your explanation. FNMA states the exception cannot be used on a regular basis and appraisers will be monitored on how and when they use the exception.
        15 years ago? Far longer than 15 years ago in my world, friend. But FNMA also accepted a “usual and customary” comment based on Market reaction for how the areas were addressed and adjusted in reports. Not anymore. Not in bi levels and splits and some other construction types according to this.
        ALL adjustments in Appraising ARE made based on MARKET REACTION and supporting DATA. Certainly you are not debating that are you?
        Doctors, lawyers, accounts and all else you mentioned do not have to research the market to find out ” what the market accepts, desires and responds to in a monetary value ” about anything of these fields. These professionals are not required to make ADJUSTMENTS based on their client’s reactions (market reactions) in reports that are sent to other professionals in different fields to rely on. You cannot compare services to products in this use. You do understand that these things you mentioned are services not GOODS/products right?
        There are however occupations associated with these fields that do research the market for reaction, opinion and therefore the success/and policies of these fields and their implementation, use or modification . There are professionals who advise on jury selection for outcome. There is Voir Dire to determine selection of juries for both sides. In Med school there are required courses addressing the business side of Medical practice and public relations!! There are surveys given out in most businesses and there are suggestion boxes all OVER the place. So to say the professions you note do not consider the MARKET is simply incorrect.
        The trades you noted are not working with production, manufactured or constructed consumer products or goods. I am sure you have heard of Neilson ratings AND consumer surveys? I am positive you have heard the term “Market acceptance?” ALL of these things are developed and utilized to consider public reaction to professions and goods of all kinds. Even Television shows. YOU KNOW those with poor ratings get cancelled. That’s just the way it is. There are so many more examples of the public’s effects on how things are done, made, changed, viewed, MARKETED, SOLD and even CANCELED. I am sure you are more than aware of this too.
        These and much more are all tools to measure public reaction, public perception, public acceptance and public opinions! SO the MARKET/consumers are considered a very important part of life. So why disagree with something you know to be true?

        This is appraisal 101 and is VERY IMPORTANT in the process of developing an Appraisal report and in the entire Appraisal career after the test. NOT JUST IMO. Thats what many of us have been saying. I am not sure why THIS has been so complicated for YOU.

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        • Baggins Baggins says:

          ANSI recognizes a different standard for residential within commercial. The recognize the ground level concept, not the below grade concept.

          The ANSI work group which effects hundreds and hundreds of thousands of appraisers realtors mb’s and reviewers around this country was what size? Hint: It appears to be less than 20 people from the East coast and they ignored almost every single licensed appraisers written suggestions. That’s well researched methodology you can trust! Also, every assessor, building code inspector, blue print creator, and professional builder in this country whom does not adhere to ANSI and immediately retroactively change all their recorded data, they’re clearly incompetent, just like appraisers whom do not want to use ANSI.

          “If you’re not with us, you’re against us.”

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        • Avatar chris says:

          BA….I don’t do commercial….I work for VA……New fees….$625 X 7 (a week) X 4 weeks x 4 months = $70,000. doesn’t even include that extra week every few months…Or re-inspections for repairs.

          Commercial uses Gross Building Ares

          Residential Appraisers us Gross LIVING Area

          You are still confusing value with reporting……ONE last time…..No one is telling you how to value……You are being instructed how to report….Something IMO most of us have been doing for more then 15 years when they came out with ABOVE and BELOW grade REPORTING 15 YEARS AGO !!!! lol.

          Consider yourself lucky …for 15 years you have had it easy compared to the rest of us.

          You were even told…if the property NEEDS to be measure differently then ANSI…Just tell them. That is for unique properties like my converted Church.

          You will get use to it, its not a big deal….come back in a few months and let us all know if you see value differences…and ya..if you mix and match designs like colonials to splits, your net, gross and individual (if you are making design adjustments) will be through the roof, obviously…but that is why they got rid of the 10%, 15% and 25% rules….

          The appraisal GODS are not stupid like you think….

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          • Baggins Baggins says:

            FYI, these homes are more than 15 years old.

            We have not had it easy. We have had additional data verification sources.

            If sketching has been difficult for you, you did that to yourself by adopting a standard nobody else in your industry has adopted. Like trying to speak a foreign language in a room where nobody else speaks that language. You can toot your own horn about this all day but nobody will ever extend you any additional confidence or prestige on this matter. Because; garden levels are not basements no matter how vainly you try to convince people or how many times you repeat the ANSI slogans.

            Now FNMA is a god again… Telling. Let me set you straight. FNMA is a GSE business institution with a charter. The appraiser stands alone as the only licensed non advocate in the entire lending process. And no, we’ll never get used to fictitious reporting and improper labeling. Because that’s fraud.

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            • Avatar Chris says:

              Are you really equating measuring with actual measurements to a foreign language? Its VERY simple, whatever the tape or laser reads, you use. If thats completely foreign then i cant imagine what the actual report looks like. All appraisal classes in all states teach the same thing. I have had many instructors from all over the country ALL have taught, when it was part of the seminar, class or discussion, that below grade, even part below grade, are considered basements. That fact should not even matter if the comparables are the same style.

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              • Avatar BA says:

                Really….. then why have a separate NEW grid line for reporting them? WE already have a below grade line and a finished sq ft area and a below grade room count area line. If below grade is always basement, then FNMA does not need to make new requirements in the GRID now do they? NO finished non GLA stuff and all the other BS either. NOW we agree…oh wait here it comes…. no you don’t right?

                Oh right.. there are 4 level splits with what…. 2 basements then? Oh no its ok cause that’s right you said earlier just don’t call it a basement count the sq footage and the rooms as if it is not a basement then use comps with basements and figure out the adjustments from the old theories and now outdated reactions due to the new requirements now 04/01.

                Cause we are the APPRAISERs and we can do what EVER we want.

                Let the NEXT guy call it what ever he wants then too! Hopefully he will not do anything different…Just saying

                And in a perfect world all the comps for miles are the same, same age, same style, same GLA, same developer all sold within a year. That is simply NOT the case HERE and many other areas. WE don’t ALL have that luxury….And remember HERE very few report the BELOW GROUND LEVEL…. “REAL basement areas” as known by all in my area…. so there’s no way to tell if its 3 or 4 levels. AHH….dang it another unknown issue to deal with.

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          • Avatar BA says:

            ***This comment was edited by AppraisersBlogs Team for compliance with TOU and our commenting guidelines.***

            So unfortunate that you cannot allow free and independent thought without insulting those who disagree with you.

            I really don’t think we are in the same league here and I am really NOT trying to offend you. I simply see much more to appraising accurately than you do evidently. I have been speaking of things that you do not feel the need to consider or address or concern yourself with. The things I and others have addressed had nothing to do with the subject you keep reverting back to which is ANSI.

            For example, I have not mentioned or addressed GBA recently but somehow you decided that I did not know the difference. If you had read earlier you would know I spoke to that way back weeks ago and I did so “Correctly:. OOOPS see what you missed!

            I suggest once again you consider reading what others comment on here. Just a suggestion.

            I think you may be surprised how many appraisers may just be as good, as educated, as experienced and as successful as you feel you are. Some are even better. AS I stated earlier you really do not know anyone here and their RESUME.

            You seem to think others should just agree with you and take unsolicited direction you insist on giving. But the only thing you address discuss and advocate for is measuring. That train left the station weeks ago friend. You are just NOT reading!! You wonder why anyone disagrees with you…its because the discussion has moved past the ANSI method. ITs not there anymore and hasn’t been for a long time now. Sorry but no one here knows anything about you, your abilities, your success or failures. All anyone hears is what you so proudly claim while being condescending to others.

            I choose to address concerns that have been brought up here and on many other forums as well. Everyone has a right to question, to disagree and to have free thought and to discuss without being belittled. IMO

            ITs not that we do not understand or that we cannot apply what FNMA or other entities throw at us. Its not that we don’t measure right or see right or write right as you seem to think here. We simply see that we are not only permitted to question and to disagree… we are compelled to question AND to disagree if we find or believe flawed thinking is involved. When these board room wizards decide “well today we are going to do this and we will no longer being DOING THAT…it calls into question why we were required to do things that we all knew were flawed long before those wizards did!! FNAM was complaining that appraisers were meeting the net and gross percentages simply to comply so NOW they no longer require the net and gross. Suddenly they realized that at times good comps may require higher adjustments and THEIR requirements were not promoting ACCURAACY. FOR years they thought differently and we all had to explain out of range adjustments!! This is just simple… we are professional, educated, competent and NOT MINDLESS followers and guess what….. we do not have to conform to things just because some entity makes up some new reporting requirement to advance their own interests. Requirements that do not comply with OUR industry NEED TO BE QUESTIONED. It’s simple in the previous post on the conversion… WE are the Appraisers and as was pointed out…. Appraisers can do anything they want cause THEY ARE the Appraisers…(even though I don’t agree ….it sure makes your points invalid IMO) WE can exercise the option to question flawed requirements and question the ways these requirements are implemented and how they effect OUR INDUSTRY and when and IF they will be seen as needing change or modification. WE ARE THE APPRAISERS and we do know how to do our jobs. FNMA evidently still has a problem understanding that. That should not bother you at all IMO….sorry if it does.

            I understand you evidently do not need market supported data to extract adjustments. How you achieve them or how you determine none are needed is still yet to be explained. (a 0 is still a decision.)
            There appears to be a problem when anyone gets too technical for you as you simply just go back to how “they will get used to ANSI.”

            You do not appear to want to address issues others have but that’s ok too. What we all know is ANSI was not the issue any way (I know you thought that is what anyone/everyone was complaining about. WE tried to tell you.. but you must not have been reading) it was the GRID and the FNMA direction / reporting that MOST people were objecting to.

            REALLY though if you are only doing VA no worries you don’t have to concern yourself with FNMA and how they require the new grid lines with the GLA, NON GLA, FINISHED NON GLA and UNFINSHED NON GLA, No worries for you on obtaining the adjustments or LACK there of.

            DATA that we don’t have yet is not anything for you to worry about.

            I think I recall VA has passed on ANSI as a requirement! You are so lucky there.

            Good for you…7 per week with a much slower market. You must have been doing 14 per week at peak. Now you can take a breath! Since rates almost doubled I am back to normal pace.

            You have big plans that the market will remain hot for VA even with raise in rates… again GOOD for you! Real Estate is already way down from last year and statically the number is 63% less than 6 months ago according to the statisticians. But if VA is still going strong no worries.

            I wished I could have retired young like you. But VA pays way better than FNMA does that’s for sure.

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      • Avatar Brian says:

        “the first floor had about 5 ft, out of 40 feet, 5-foot length, the front, was 2 feet below grade, I did not count that entire area’s basement” So this tells you how slow things are now, I’ve spent most of my Sunday reading this dated post but I got the impression that you measured to ANSI standards? Your admission to not include the below-grade areas as a basement indicates otherwise!

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  144. Avatar chris says:

    Baggins…I never said garden levels were the same value as basements.

    You have had it easy, not for the age of your houses, but for not having to REPORT Like the rest of us for 15 years when we were told the NEW definition of was considered to be BELOW grade. I remember the class.

    Don’t you ??? Or did you ignore that?

    They are GODS..they just changed your reality, just like all the other form changes we have been through the last 30 years. All the extra work we were forced to do, listing history, MC forms, past sales history, how many active and sales.

    When my original office had 25 appraisers and 25 assistants…don’t you think there would be a huge problem if one of their appraisers measured 1 way and said the house was 2000 sqft and years later when the SAME lender ordered another appraisal that another appraiser would NOT be close in GLA..

    We were doing 500-700 appraisals a week at the high of 1992-1994. A week !!! LOL We were using ANSI 30 years ago and yes they had a major commercial division. And a flood map division….Talk about rolling in the money.

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    • Baggins Baggins says:

      Again. You should have been following your local municipal guidelines. How hard of a concept is that? It provides the basis for uniformity. In having one singular standard, you may have then in turn applied a variance to reporting which nobody else recognized. You don’t help the team out by running the wrong direction on the field. And the team is not just the appraisers in an office, no matter how big the office is. The team is the entire realty appraisal MLS and assessor community, and we’re all supposed to be on the same page with a comprehensive data standard. That standard specifically is the municipal building code guidelines applicable in that jurisdiction. Your view of this matter is provincial, too lazy or stubborn to become competent with your own market standards at hand.

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      • Avatar Chris says:

        Baggins…….”You should have been following your local municipal guidelines” Why? Who told you that?

        ” It provides the basis for uniformity.” so does ANSI…..which is why the appraisal GODS have spoken.

        “In having one singular standard, you may have then in turn applied a variance to reporting which nobody else recognized.”” Who is nobody else ??? We never had a problem.

        “The team is the entire realty appraisal MLS and assessor community,” Team ??? Seriously….Team? LOL
        “and we’re all supposed to be on the same page with a comprehensive data standard” Now we are with ANSI –ya..go ANSI !!! We appraisers are now a team….YA right……We couldn’t even organize to stop the management company take over of an entire profession.

        “That standard specifically is the municipal building code guidelines applicable in that jurisdiction.” Assessors and realtors tell us appraisers what to do……Ya right…..LOL Who told you that?

        “Your view of this matter is provincial, too lazy or stubborn to become competent with your own market standards at hand.” Well this incompetent appraiser just wrote his last report yesterday at the age of 56 and headed to retirement…..lazy, stubborn ???

        NA…..Considered 1 of the best for 30 years…and was paid mightily for my skill and expertise…..

        I was the guy they called…..they used to say…”We need you on this one. Name your price, take your time, send us an invoice and we will overnight you a check” I had their check before I even called anyone….

        I was paid $2,000 for court appearance up till 12 pm and $4,000 if it went 1 minute past 12PM. Never even had to sit in front of a judge…opposing council was terrified of me after they read my review of their appraisers report. I would have chewed them up in front of the judge and they knew it. They used to try to stare me down…I just looked at them and smiled…Come on baby…lets have some fun. But they never wanted to play, went outside in the hallway and settled with my clients. My clients loved me..they didnt even have to go into the court room……LOL Oh those were the days !!!

        Those days were fun…but I hated waking up early and having to put the monkey suit on….Loved the lawyers…learned a lot form them….The judges were even cooler.

        I was asked to handle license revoking cases…told them $500/hr including drive time to the state capital…they didn’t even blink an eye…..

        Last question…why do you add right wing non sense to your posts….? Oh..never mind….I know.

        2000 mules was a joke……the grift continues for our low IQ Americans. Did tRump really play that down in Florida for his sheep followers……Yes he did……LOL

        I thought we were done with this ANSI thing….nut thanks for the distraction…..Back to putting up my crown molding….Time to sell at the high of the market and get out of this country before its too late.

        Thailand here I come !!!

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        • Baggins Baggins says:

          Bragging. Finances dropping. Career stats dropping. Countering political documentary with political rhetoric. Restating positions from previously well rebutted arguments as conclusive fact, ignoring everything which does not fit into your argument goals. A note of walking away to your idea of paradise which will somehow create a note of inferred jealousy being inevitably inherent, looks like I lost again. Genius. You should get paid by ANSI, you’re that good of an advocate.

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      • Avatar Kenneth Smith says:

        Called the local county Assessor and asked if she measured by ANSI standards. She said she had never heard of it.

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  145. Baggins Baggins says:

    A workable ANSI work around. Does not change net/gross. Does not change room counts. Does not alter the metrics of matching units of measurement based market reaction adjustments. Can be understood by both ANSI zealots and the people whom understand and adhere to local municipal guidelines. Problem solved.

    https://appraisersblogs.com/solving-the-ansi-measuring-dilemma-a-simple-work-around#comment-34587

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  146. Avatar Chris says:

    So… Are you an assessor or an appraiser?

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ANSI Measuring Standard Required in 2022

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